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Golems, Mesanna?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by PlayerSkillFTW, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    So, do the devs have any plans to make Golems actually useful? Even after the recent introduction of "Advanced Golems" through the Gadgetry Table, even the GM Tinker Advanced Golems are pretty worthless. The 2 main problems with them, are that they don't bond (making hauling them around a pain in the ass, and any training put into them [GM Anat] can easily be lost), and the ridiculous cooldown timer and ingot consumption of repairing them. A tamer can heal his pet every 3 secs for 1 bandage, which is worth about 2-3 gold, while you can heal a Golem once every 30 secs or so, for about 10 ingots, which is at least 100 gold worth on most shards.
    Currently, even the GM Tinkering Advanced Golems are completely surpassed by bondable Vollems, or even trained Iron Beetles.
     
    #1 PlayerSkillFTW, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  2. Voodoo Bad Mojo

    Voodoo Bad Mojo Lore Master
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    this was pointed out when they came out.
    while they where on test.

    but ill back you here, golems are and will always be useless until we are able to Bond them and the healing timer is removed.

    i even think we should go further and move them back down to 2 control slots again so we can actually use a pair of them while out mining.
     
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  3. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    They also shouldn't loose "health" while just standing there not fighting anything.

    The golems from the table need a significant boost before they are even worth bothering to claim.
     
  4. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
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    its not hard to move em around.. i use em for training skills.

    all follow
    go to where u wanna go
    log out and back in
    will come to ur location
     
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  5. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Vollums are two slots.. dunno why we can't do golems two slots
     
  6. eth777

    eth777 Adventurer
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    Yet another vote for fixing the worthless golems... one repair is never enough, so i have to wait to repair again, just to get the thing back in a fight
     
  7. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Golems do not need bonding. It will just turn the techno mages into tamers where they carelessly throw pets at things with no consequences.

    Golems need a quicker heal timer with a strong focus on tinkering v amount healed.

    Tinkers can take down bane guard.

    http://community.stratics.com/threads/techno-bard.232842/
     
  8. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    So, we gonna feed the robot an apple to bond?

    I agree they should be a bit more useful, but they always been a target of abuse in skill training - no one never hunted with them. And I wont compare it with a dragon....for that you need to develope a char... a fresh new 21 sec old char can have a golem and go hunt, so the usefulness will never be good. You cant compare it to vollems either, for it is little or close to no investment in getting a golem, but a vollem is expensive...

    I cant see that a golem should be better than a vollem... but i can see that they should tweak it a little, but not so much.
     
  9. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    But a golem is better then a vollem in certain situations. Lich lords and Eldar gazers spring to mind. 100% poison resist and 160 magic resist.
     
  10. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Isn't the difference between a pet and a Golem that you don't need skill to control the Golem? If you make them as good as pets why would you even be a tamer anymore?
     
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  11. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    dont think of them as if they are actually useful or not, they are more a graphic animation of a very cool deco item. the actual golem just adds to the deco. i think they are very cool.
     
  12. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    Just posting ideas.

    A golem is a machine. Makes no sense to feed them. "Training" them also doesn't make sense, because they are a machine that with no capability of learning. Therefore the skills of a golem should not be affected by the experience of fighting in the same way tamed animals learn.

    • New item: "Repair Parts". Made with ingots, have low weight and are basically the bandages of golems. Made by tinkers. Must have tinkering skill to use effectively. Maybe have like 5 parts made per ingot. The type of ingot ingot used could also affect the quality of the repair parts. Example, iron heals the least, valorite heals the most.
    • Modifications. Every golem has two slots for modifications. The mods are made by tinkers, smiths, carpenters, alchemists, or some combination of crafting skills. The mods can make the golem unique and tailored to certain situations. Here are mod ideas off the top of my head:
      • Skill Mods. Remember when I said that golems can't learn? Apply a skill mod to raise their skills.
      • Armor Mod. Make the golem into a beastly tank by raising a few or all resists.
      • Damage Mod. Drastically increases the golems damage.
      • Speed Mod. Makes the golem fast. This mod will probably be nerfed a few weeks after due to PvP complaints of speed hacking.
      • Auto-Repair Mod. Ability to store repair parts on the golem, and it will heal itself automatically.
      • Crossbow Mod. Gives it a ranged attack. Must be supplied with bolts.
      • Cannon Mod. Allows the golem to fire cannon balls like a ship cannon. Must be supplied with all the usual stuff though (fuse cord, charge, cannon ball, and matches). The cannon fires at the same rate as ship cannons, but can do a lot of damage.
      • Follower Mod. Reduces the number of follower slots it takes up.
      • Pack Mod. Gives the golem the ability to hold things like a packhorse.
      • Smelting Mod. The golem can smelt ore, like a fire beetle.
      • Special Moves Mod. The golem can use a wider variety of special moves (other than its concussion/dismount thing)
      • Dance Mod. The golem will now dance on command.
      • Joke Mod. The golem will now tell bad jokes.
    • Bonding. Somehow a machine 'bonding' doesn't really make much sense, so instead I'll opt for the word "bound". A golem is bound from its creation. A bound golem can recall with its owner, like a bonded pet. Golems do not have moods, so feeding it to increase its happiness like an animal makes no sense.
    • Resurrection. Golems are not alive, therefore they have no ghosts. Golems, on the other hand, can be salvaged. One of two possibilities (or both): an item appears on their corpse which can be looted and, if combined with 100 repair parts, the golem can be remade. Alternatively, yet another item, "Rebuild Kit" can be double clicked, and the golem corpse targeted, and this will begin the resurrection of the golem (at which point, it will reappear where the tinker is standing). But please, for the love of all that is good, please don't let me ever have to see a 'golem ghost'.

    I would like to add that due to the fact that golems, in this context, are a lot easier to recreate as oppose to a trained dragon, for example, that they are therefore much more disposable, so while I think that resurrection should be possible, it shouldn't be cheap, or as easy as leading a ghost away from battle to resurrect it.
     
  13. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    Vollems have been in game for years without the need for taming skill so I don't see any point in disagreeing with someone who wants a Golem.
     
  14. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Very good ideas. Props @Deraj
     
  15. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I agree on the no bonding but then if they die, the tinker should be able to "repair" their corpses and bring them back to life without the need to have to make one anew....

    Now, the problem to be solved is how to make sense to a Golem's "ghost" to follow the tinker (like a dead pet does) up to where it is safe for the tinker to "repair" the Ghost Golem back to life.......
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I understand your point about a Golem "ghost" but still, often if a pet (or a Golem) dies it is because the place where they died has overwhelming spawn.

    Therefore, as the tamer needs to move elsewhere, to a safe location, in order to resurrect his/her own pet, so the tinker should be able to "repair" his/her Golem away from where the corpse lays, at a safer location.

    Now, if there is no ghost, how could the tinker "repair" the broken Golem ?

    With the repair kits, fine. Problem is, that within a hunting session it can be that a pet (or a Golem) can die/break multiple times but while resurrecting a pet only takes a few bandages, if to repair a Golem 100 repair parts would be needed this would mean that for a single hunting session a tinker would need to carry along thousands upon thousands of repair parts.... if they weight nothing like bandages then it would not be a big problem but if they are to be heavy items then this could become an obstacle....
     
  17. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    I had this very scenario in mind when I wrote the post, funny enough. You are correct that, in an intense situation, actually getting close to the golem to rebuild it could prove difficult, or maybe even impossible, but I consider this one of the trade-offs of using a golem, versus a tamed pet. If both resurrection methods I specified were used, that would give the player two different ways to bring their golem back, depending on the situation. Furthermore, golems ought to be far more disposable than a tamed pet, being that they can be recreated much easier than a trained beast (and plus, it bolsters a greater need and demand for newly made golems from tinkers).

    In my mind, repair parts would be exactly like bandages in terms of weight, so yes you would be able to carry hundreds or even a thousand at a time. If you were a crafty tinker you could employ mining to acquire more ingots at nearby rocks to make more repair parts.
     
  18. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    The super simple fixes to mechanical pets in general from my (without trying to sound big headed) well hunted experience with them.

    1. Lower the timer on healing mechanical pets

    2. When a mechanical pet dies parts are the lootable to help build a new one. Bronze ingots, golem kits, arcane crystals, essence void etc.

    Both should be easy as feck to code and take little to no time of the devs. 3 more slightly complicated (I imagine) fixes.

    3. Make mechanical wolves summon Without ANYTHING on their corpses. As it stands mechanical wolves have little to nothing going for them.

    4. Make a macro that allows you to repair golems. From memory I used to have to open an keep open a huge tinker menu all the time while hunting with them.

    5. No bonding, but allow them to be attached to a pet ball. Thus would enable people to move them without gates.

    Other than that Golems and mechanical pets really don't need fixing. They are powerful enough as is, people just want to use them as a generic pet to throw at things with reckless abandon, instead of realising they are fantastic utility pets that can stomp all over poison damage or magic based monsters.

    Really, train a golem then head to the eldar gazers or lich lords. See for yourself how good a golem is in certain situations.
     
  19. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Golem training aside (especially since its FAR less effective now)...

    The current stats on golems are pathetic. The stats on the gadgetry table-created golems are a joke, especially considering they have the original style (read: broken) healing.

    There really isn't a valid reason for them not being similar to vollems (without the magic).
     
  20. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    They are. You can't leave a vollem on its own with lich lords. You can a golem.
     
  21. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    If you leave a gadgetry table golem "on its own," it dies. Their health drops if they can't see you for more then a few minutes. (Found that out while trying to use them as guards outside a building for an event)
     
  22. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Gadgetry tables are rubbish. Normal golems are not.
     
  23. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Gadgetry table golems are supposed to have higher stats then tinkered golems. That's what the OP is really about.
     
  24. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Well thats also a silly idea. Why should someone without any tinkering be able to make a golem at no cost with no skill? Also, why should tinkers be able to make golems without getting parts for them first? That would be like tamers getting fully powered pets without having to tame them first.
     
  25. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    If a tinker uses the table to create a golem, they are supposed to be even more powerful. However, even with GM Tinkering, the golems are still near useless.
     
  26. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    With the ridiculousness of the Greater Dragon and then the laughable overpowered Rising Colossus......geez just fix the Golems already.
     
  27. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Still making a golem without getting the parts is like a tamer getting pets without taking them. Table golems should not be as good as made golems.
     
  28. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Something's overpowered so make other overpowered things instead of fixing the overpowered things. Makes sense.
     
  29. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Because a few gears, a pittance in ingots, and otherwise worthless power crystal and clockwork assembly are so hard to come by? :rolleyes:

    Nobody is asking them to be GD-rivaling, just not the crippled piece of wet tissue paper they are now.
     
  30. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Not hard to come by, but neither are dragons or cu sidhes. It is all part of the process of character development. Also if I was taking down bane guard and bane dragons with a golem and a vollem I would maintain hey are not wet tissue.
     
  31. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    A good GD or Cu (4.0+) is hard to come by, then you have to train it. Hence why they are considerably more powerful, and rightfully so.

    However, contrary to some people's belief, there are multiple templates in UO, not all of them combat oriented. Some crafters, especially resource gatherers, would like something to tag along with them to deal with incidental spawn or the random ore elemental. For a pet that requires three control slots, the table golems are pushovers.

    I wouldn't use the bane chosen/dragons as a good example here, they weren't exactly difficult to kill.
     
  32. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    Regards the 4.0 comment, does not detract from the fact the base pets are not that hard to come by. If you want to use the 4.0 arguement, should it be free to bang out endless golems until you get a 4.0 golem? Theres character development for ya >.>

    Regards non combat templates, there are plenty of pets available for that. Beetles, standard, iron, and forge can all be well trained. Less in character, you have Bouras.

    Regards the bane guard, they were not difficult to kill, but they were certainly high up monsters.
     
  33. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    I think golem's are what they are supposed to be. It requires no skill for to have or use it, just for to heal it. And - I wont like to see everyone running around with a golem.

    Vollems was popular in when they came out, but - now it is not so many of them around hunting with them. But - they are also what they are supposed to be. Not cheap or easy to get, but possible. A bonded and trained vollem is a good pet to fight with. They are available in the cleanup system - so rather get one of them if u want something stronger without require skills to have it.
     
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  34. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If it would be needed to stand by the Golem "remains" (rather than "corpse") in order to repair it, then this activity should be able to get done while hidden (regardless of the hiding way one choose) AND, the repaired Golem should come back to life at 100% full strength...

    Otherwise, there got to be a way to repair it at a safer location, far away from the "remains"....
     
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  35. eth777

    eth777 Adventurer
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    Looks like I reopened a can of worms. I don't even mind it not binding. My biggest complaint, is I can't repair the thing fast enough to keep it from dying. For anything but small fights, it's not viable. Small meaning whatever its fighting isn't strong enough to kill it in one battle. Then i can sit there for a couple minutes waiting to repair it up to full strength for another fight. I really would like to make a useful PVM Tinker. I don't have peacemaking or anything, and that seems more like a bard with a bigger hammer, rather than a Tinker. Not that that is bad. Sounds like a good way to work with what is available, might have to give it a try.

    Just seems fun to build gadgets for fighting. Maybe they could be similar to colossus, meant to last only a short time, just make it less intensive to rebuild in the field. Really doesn't seem like it would be much worse than throwing out a colossus/dragon and hiding while it kills everything for you.

    I don't think we would see everyone having them, because you still need tinkering to repair it, and without repairs these things wouldn't make 2 rounds.
    Maybe require several craft skills to be fully proficient at it. Make crafting mules viable for fighting No more worrying about running into a mongbat at the moongate, while on a resource run :)
     
  36. TheDrAJ

    TheDrAJ Slightly Crazed
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    I used to really like the controller link based on manna. But repair then and now is ridiculous.
     
  37. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    Then you shuld choose what to fight so that it would survive! They are not ment to make a PVM Tinker, just helpful in gathering resourses. As mentioned before, you can fight lich'es and lich lords with it - and it will survive.

    Put on magery on your tinker, train it to 30 - and get 30 skills from jewelry, then go buy a bunch of demon scrolls - and you got a pet that fights for you a little while! You can fight a lot with summoned demons, and casting from scroll you will success - only fails at lower rate.

    I am not sure what you are after, but if you want a PVM char - then you have to adjust your template to be able to fight and learn the skills.
     
  38. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Reminds me of some of the ideas i had for Golems years ago. http://community.stratics.com/threads/bondable-useful-golems.265308/
    It still takes GM Tinkering to get the most out of the Gadgetry Table, and it takes alot more resources and effort to keep even a GM Tinker Advanced Golem alive, than it does for something like an Iron Beetle. The problem with recalling around and logging out then back in to get your Golem to you, is that Golems tend to fall apart real quick after you leave their sight, which is where some form of "Bonding" or "Binding" would be useful. The biggest problem with them though, is that the cooldown on Tinker repairs is still ridiculous, and is more resource expensive than just slapping on a bandage.

    Actually, when Golems first came out with the Lord Blackthorn's Revenge expansion, people didn't train on them, and not only used them for hunting, but also used them in PvP. Back then, with their 160+ Resist skill, they were virtually immune to magic, back when Resist skill could mitigate direct damage spells. Doing only 3-4 damage with Flamestrike to a Golem was pretty common. Tinkered Golems also had Colossal Blow back then, which allowed them to Stun their opponents, making them a pain in the ass for Warriors to fight. The only template that had an easy time with Golems, were Archers.
    However, they did also share a link with their controller. Whenever the Golem took damage, the controller would also take a portion of that damage into their Mana, and if they ran out of Mana, it would start damaging their Health.
     
  39. eth777

    eth777 Adventurer
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    I'm really just looking for something different to tinker with.(hah :thumbup1:) I dropped magery on so I could gate around with the golem, and that helps to blast things. Just trying to mix things up a bit, rather than the typical mage/fighter/etc. I had just expected more from the golems, and decided to drop my 2 cents in. The mana link sounds like it would be an interesting dynamic. Never used a golem when they first came out. Obviously changes to these are probably not even on the radar, but its fun to throw around ideas. I will have to try some of the other mechanical creatures too.