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Good Question that needs a answer....

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Lady Storm, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Before we go any further : Mods please allow this to remain in the general chat..that is not EA/UO related... but something I need help with and we have alot of smart eggs here. I am stumped on a replay and need assistance.

    OK here is the Question:
    Jet's run on jet fuel, the big 787's and other planes need. (this is a 8 year old asking this btw)
    This a a Fossil Fuel right?
    If oil stopped tomorrow and no more was in the ground... would those planes that carry people still be able to fly?

    I for once didnt know where to look for an answer for this one... she is a pip and this is a good question.
     
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  2. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    I'm not sure that I understand the premise of the little pip's questions, but yes, jet fuel is fossil fuel. If for some reason all oil stopped, all passenger airplanes would be grounded. There are experimental solar powered planes - single passenger and strictly experimental. There are also gliders, and attempts to make people powered flights. There have been some thought experiments using nuclear power for manned flight and it's feasible, but lots and lots of technical problems, not to mention political problems.

    But, just think of all the other things in our lives that would also stop - almost all plastics (well, soybeans and starches can make some types), many drugs and even ladies' makeup comes from oil. We would still be able to heat our homes with wood, and natural gas, and electricity mostly comes from coal, natural gas and nuclear power - and maybe as much as 10% renewable energy.

    But nothing has the energy density of fossil fuels to fly passenger planes.
     
  3. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    *scratches head* I need to revise my statement and a quick look on Wiki.

    Here is some information in wikipedia on synthetic jet fuel - the research for it began with military craft and expanded to some civilian craft. And there is a program to use bio-fuels for jet fuel. Although the quantity isn't there right now, it is possible to use non-fossil fuels to fly jets.
     
  4. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    thank you I was at the same point you came to in the first post but when you tell a child this kind of thing you want to be absolutely positive of the info you give them... some how if you dont its comes back to haunt you... :)
    I didnt think of synthietic fuel... well if push came to shove i guess we could make it work.... Now to go explain it to her, i will be sending her the page you point out too thanks
     
  5. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    If oil ended tomorrow there is absolutely NO way that anything would be moving, let alone flying. For the production of bio fuels and synthetic fuels you need a myriad of items only obtainable by the use of oil, either in their gathering, transporting, production or their end use. This goes for transport, production of steal, agriculture, plastics, medicines etc. I have been following the peak oil movement for over ten years, there is NO substitute for oil that gives anywhere near the same EROEI (energy returned over energy invested). The search for alternatives is so far behind it is pretty much too late.

    Peak oil occurred around 2005, since then the price of gas/oil per barrel has been on the up. It will continue on this upward spiral indefinitely, the only time it drops now is when the price causes the markets to totally bork up as it did in 2008 resulting in the global financial crises, stock market crash, where demand destruction then occured, then prices fall because people become conservative and don't take unnecessary trips etc, but now it is creeping back up again since the 2008 shock and in the not too distant future a similar crash will occur. All the hype over oil sands etc is just that, hype. Sure you can turn shale into oil, however, the EROEI is abysmal and the amount of gas and water used to get it converted is just another environmental disaster. Hydrogen is another myth, will never be an alternative. I won't go on about it, as most people just don't want to know or are not interested. Heads in sand seems to be the going thing around the world.

    If you are intrested in what the future holds I suggest you read the Hirsch report prepared for the US govt in 2005, the depressing thing is that when you read the requirements to mitigate the end of cheap oil you realise that governments the world over are about as useless as tits on a bull for doing anything about it. Carter in the 1970's first put the issue of oil on the agenda, and the need to conserve and to start looking for alternatives, he was promptly voted out of offices as people just don't want to know.

    For further info: Google peak oil, search for articles by Richard Heinberg, James Howard Kunstler, Chris Martensen and a host of others, or just search peak oil on You tube for some pretty good, but scary videos if reading isn't your thing.

    Sure we can have solar cars, and bio fuel niche markets but a serious depletion of oil for the masses will result in no planes flying unless you are one of the super super rich who is lucky enough to run their own plane and have thousands to spend on a synthetic oil trip. Your local jumbo jet will be grounded.

    If the world had another 50-100 years before oil peaked to invest in alternatives then there may be some hope, however, that isn't the case it won't disappear tomorrow, in fact it will never actually run out. It will just get to where it will take a barrel of oil to recover a barrel of oil, once we get to there in the word's of REM it will be the "end of the world as we know it".
     
    #5 MissEcho, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
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  6. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    MissEcho is very correct, but an expansion to the point should be made. It is not all doom and gloom.

    Alternative energy sources and truly synthetic fuels are poorly lagging behind, but it is more a matter of financing and ongoing research than anything else.

    If all fossil based oil was to disappear in one fell swoop tomorrow, there would be varying levels of hardship for a relatively few years but the end result would be a return to productivity using all the other hitherto sources we have been ignoring. Ocean / water motion, solar, wind, geothermal, etc.. It would be quite the wild ride.. one I would gladly give a go, personally.

    All of the above would come AFTER we replace our "oil" requirement. Algae farms that produce oils (with growing EROEI.. isn't genetic engineering great), plant oils, etc would relatively soon fill the gaps and are infinitely sustainable. There are already working technologies that just need expansion and financing. Since I would include all coal as running out ( thank the gods) at the same time (since it is fossil based) , you would start seeing the alternative sources for that energy source increasing as well as all former oil monies were then dumped into that specific research and production.

    But... within a generation we would see a HUGE worldwide improvement in environmental quality. A worldwide temporary moratorium on unmanaged cutting of trees / rain forest would have to be instituted and unwavering / even violently pursued . Without that... Humans would rapidly depopulate entire forests for fuel in their short term desire for survival. The loss of the biomass and it's effect on the planet would be the mass conversion of usable soil to desert conditions.

    In far less than a lifetime, you would see the return of all forms of transportation. Not saying it would be easy or it will not hurt in the short term, highly likely we would see a decrease in the number of the human species. In the proper larger scope, depending on your personal belief system, that is definitely not such a bad thing.

    So.. if the base of the youngster's question was to know if it would be a good thing or not. The answer is easy; Yes, planes would stop flying.. for a while.. but will be resolved and the end result would be a very good thing for everyone on the planet.
     
    #6 Widow Maker, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  7. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    I am not as optimistic as you. Unfortunately prior to the use of oil, the world's population stood at less than 2 billion, it had been that way for centuries. The coming of the oil age has seen the world's population skyrocket to now being over 7 billion. And is projected to be over 9 billion by 2050. In 1950, less than 70 years ago, the world's population was only 2.5 billion. Oil has been used for intensive agriculture, the machinery used to grow and transport crops in huge monopolies and mass farming, the so called 'green revolution'. Highly industrialized . The bulk of pesticides/fertilizers are a product of oil, and are relied on to produce the food in these industrialized farms. There is nothing on the horizon to replace oil for tractors, oil for pesticides, oil for transporting farm produce, oil in the production of steel, rubbers, etc etc to manufacture the tractors to use in the first place, the list goes on and on. It takes 10 calories of fossil fuels to produce 1 calorie of food. What happens when this fossil fuel (95% oil) is unavailable. You tell me.

    A collapse of the oil economy has impacts much greater than just transport, there are no alternatives for the bulk of processes currently gained from oil. You can always find one example of something to use for the odd process or product, however in the scale of what oil does in all it's derivatives nothing comes close to the EROEI that oil has given mankind. Originally it was 1 unit of energy invested to obtain 100 units of energy ie 100:1 now that same calculation due to the cost of exploration, the fact that oil fields are in ever more inaccessible regions or non standard fields (ie gulf of Mexico 5 miles down, ring any bells, Canadian Tar sands etc) and bringing fields to production puts the EROEI down to 20:1, ie it takes 1 unit of energy to get 20 units. I think the EROEI on the tar sands is something like 5:1 at best and some deeper areas 2.9:1, even worse, and is highly environmentally damaging. Either way just on oil, it is 1/5 of what it was 80 years ago. This equation gets worse every year.

    This link shows a simplified graph of oil discovery v usage: Oil Situation As you can see oil discoveries now are on par with or less than pre 1950's and also getting worse.

    Sure you can have bio fuel/ethanol all generated as by products of agriculture, ie corn etc, however to replace oil with bio fuel gives you the choice, to use your land/machinery to make fuel for cars or produce food to feed the people, you will not be able to do both. You mentioned algae above, well I have read the studies on this promising alternative, however when you read them you need to read the words like 'has the potential' in other words the technology and knowledge is still in fledgling stages and will require years and years before it is in any way a possible replacement, and even then they talk of it having the potential to supply between 15 & 20% of CURRENT oil usage, what happens to the other 75-80% unaccounted for not including the added extra for what economist are always after a 'growing economy'. On that basis only one in five of us who currently drive will be able to do so.

    The bulk of alternative technologies wind, solar, nuclear generate electricity not oil. 95% of current transportation requires oil. 70% of oil in the US is used for transport. There is no alternative technology anywhere even close to supplying even 5% of the oil requirement for transport alone, yet alone for everything else that is a requirement for the way we currently live, computers, plastics,medicines, cosmetics etc, even to harvest sustainable woods in this day and age requires a huge fossil fuel input for transportation etc etc.

    We have the technology/knowledge to surmount some of these things, but the implementation of them and the requirement to be able to ramp up the infrastructure to use it is pretty much non existent, both in production terms and in terms of financing. You hear all the time about just switching to electric or hydrogen cars, this is ludicrous as how many millions of gas stations would need to be retrofitted to change from fuel to electricity or gas. Oh and we have a peak gas crisis too if you want to look at natural gases. It would cost absolutely billions and billions of dollars. Do you consider the current state of the American economy is in any fit state to handle this kind of mass infrastructure refit?

    It is far too late given the current state of the oil fields and the will of politicians who are more concerned with re-election on 4 to 8 year terms than long term risk management and implementation of such.

    As I said, I have been studying this topic for over ten years and can rant on about it til the cows come home, although I generally don't bring it up anymore as the majority of people don't want to know. I am glad I do not have children, and feel sorry for those generations ahead of our wasteful generation. We have squandered everything for the future generations in less than 100 years.

    :) cheers.
     
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  8. virtualhabitat

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    Germans used coal to power vehicles during WWII -including aircraft. They were also successful in the development of hydrogen peroxide fuels that powered the V2 rocket program.

    The Russians flew the first prototype hydrogen powered aircraft in 1989. Airbus and a few others have made hydrogen powered aircraft in the last ten years. Boeing is developing lighter hydrogen fuel cells for aircraft. Two reasons we don't use hydrogen in aircraft now is containers for pressurized hydrogen are too heavy and hydrogen is more expensive to produce than oil.

    Running out of oil would not stop aviation.
     
  9. Dag Nabbit

    Dag Nabbit Seasoned Veteran

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    [youtube]ER0BvmDhDCI[/youtube]​
     
  10. Captn Norrington

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    humans are many things, greedy, power hungry, kind, etc. but overall we are resourceful, no matter how badly the world gets screwed up we will always find a way to adapt to it, if oil disappears all that will happen is a new market for alternative fuels will be created, and a couple years later people will most likely never even notice a change in their lives.
     
  11. Winter

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    There ARE alternatives to fuel vehicles, although none as energy rich as fossil fuels. Don't forget the obvious electric, ethanol E-85, and propane powered cars, trucks and even city buses. And then there are hydrogen fuel cells that are making a comeback in research. There are bio-diesel fuel cars running every day using diesel made from recycled cooking oil. The Capt'n is correct, humans are nothing if not resourceful and we will always find a way.

    Last but not least, there are the wood-gas vehicles using wood to power their trucks. Odd, but they get about 1 mile per pound of wood.

     
  12. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Seeing that this is from an eight year old, you might want to also assure her that in the event that all fossil fuels in the ground suddenly disappear tomorrow, the planes that were still flying in the air will still have sufficient fuel to land at their originally intended destinations safely and won't suddenly drop out of the sky :D
     
  13. MalagAste

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    There are many alternatives available and many more not even pursued because Oil is too mighty. Not forgetting Methane..... produced from hog manure. You can run a vehicle on it.
     
  14. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Thank you all for your excelent help............
    She is facinated over the huge help you have given her.
    I knew we had very intelligent comunity and its why I came to the forums for help.
    Oh, a recient PBS Special on the medical health of the worlds population over the whole of human exsistance concluded that much of the reason for human population groth in the last 200 years is due to better hygiene and the purity of our water. Seems the water of the early town and city living man was very poluted. Rome was the first to recognize the benifits of sewage removal from the public streets, unfortunatly after the fall of Rome as a culture the middle ages and dark ages was filled with lack of basic plumbing as Rome had centurys before to carry away the human waste. Bathing and water use was lost in the fall as well. England alone found that the low population was a direct cause of the health of their water supply.. after they started to boil water the health of people lived longer, mortality rate dropped significantly. I remember stories I read of history of europe. One stuck in my head of the smell of the City of Paris in summer. People dumped chamber pots out windows! It was one reason the mens hats were so wide brimmed... to protect the wearer from the fallout... talk about a fashion statement.
    I surmise that the loss of knowlage for basic hygiene ast he romans had discovered was a major source of desease and death. See your mom was right to yip at your heals to wash your hands before eating....
     
  15. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Much of ancient society owes it's history to... BEER! Beer was heavily consumed, especially during medieval times because the water used to make beer was boiled, and therefore bacteria free. To your sanitation point, while water wasn't safe to drink, the beer was safe and consumed instead of water, and consumed morning, noon and night. And beer was a way to use excess cereals that couldn't be consumed before it spoiled. There are some social scientist who claim that it was beer and not bread, that drove early settlement.

    Sanitation was certainly very important to the expansion of modern society, but much of the human history is centered around beer!
     
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  16. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Odd isnt it that man has come so far thanks to Beer... hehe Yes the special pointed out that if not for beer, ale, and wine much of the people of the past would have died from the water alone... most sewage went into rivers and streams and man didnt put 2 and 2 together to understand he was killing himself and his neighbor. How they lost the art of keeping their world clean and healthy given by anchient rome, egypt and greece is beyond me.. Bathing in roman days alone was a public afair and a social occasion daily.. even the japaneese have comunal baths and are festidious on clean body... how did the people loose that and consider bathing a horrid thing to do.... I cant imagine not washing my hands after working outside and picking up a sandwich to eat.... and thes people did worse and ate food... gross !!
     
  17. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    MissEcho, I find your advanced knowledge on this subject to be not only outstanding but also refreshing. I tend to have a more optimistic outlook on this scenario because a starving person is capable of great feats and leaps of technology to relieve the situation, much as they do in a war standing.

    Lady Storm, I think the young one should have enough material out of this conversation to easily achieve an A+. Good luck :)
     
  18. Cupid

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    I believe the latest technology of fracking made the term "peak oil" obsolete, the US is projected to become the largest oil producer in a couple years with weekly reports of massive oil fields awaiting. The current price of gas is due to all the damn refineries closing. Also I believe Nissan and Ford are coming out with Hydrogen fuel cell cars in 2015, technology will always save us from ourselves, good or bad as that may be.
     
  19. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    "Peak oil" is Malthusian mythology. World crude oil production was at 84.5 million bpd in 2005. After dipping in 2009 -- which was because of reduced demand, not any "peak" in either production or supply -- it's surged to 2010 in 87 million bpd, and over 89 million bpd in 2012. If you read projections from the U.S. EIA, OPEC is expected to produce less in 2014, but it's a voluntary cutback to keep oil prices from falling. There's still a lot of oil being produced by conventional means.


    Actually, crude oil prices are considerably lower than their 2008 peak, and U.S. gas prices are lower than the 2008 peak. While prices are higher than in 2007, it's perfectly explained by growth in the Chinese and Indian economies, and the tremendously inflationary practices by the major central banks. You can't go by price alone as evidence of a "peak."


    When so much of the population growth is in Third World countries, whose people don't use as much energy, there isn't as much of a concern about population growth. And as a testament to human ingenuity, our efficiency in drilling, pumping, transportation, refinement and usage has also increased. Even the trucks delivering to gas stations have more efficient engines than years past, because it makes economic sense.

    Oil is not going to disappear overnight. Your talk of "There is nothing on the horizon" for replacement is what people said two centuries ago about limits. Yet mankind found more coal. Mankind discovered crude oil. It's the big thing right now, and I judge by human history since industrialization that we'll find the next big thing in plenty of time.


    And a nuclear war in my back yard tomorrow would be the end of things too. There's a lot more chance of that happening than oil suddenly going away, overnight or 10 years from now. Be worried more about the disappearance of honeybees than oil going away within your lifetime.

    You're acting like there's a full stop in human inventions. Once upon a time, humans worried about the cost of making and cleaning glass containers. Then we invented disposable plastics. You don't know what the future holds, when someone will make a breakthrough. I've used bioplastics that aren't quite there, but a few more years and they could be.

    If oil suddenly becomes so scarce, prices will go up, and using metal and glass will again become economically viable. Have you ever been to countries where even fast food restaurants offer metal utensils, and soft drinks come in glass bottles? Personally I ask if they have plastic ones, because I don't know how well a fork was washed. Some places simply don't, because labor is so cheap that washing metal and glass is overall cheaper than disposable plastic. Western economies still don't have to worry about going back to that, because we'll find the next disposable material to accommodate our fast lifestyles. There's always an alternative.

    You're again making big assumptions. That's with today's technology, but how do you know we won't have better means to harvest energy with greater returns? Just a century ago, nobody could have drilled so deep, or easily flown non-stop to a third of the way around the world. Going to the moon was very much still science fiction, except to visionaries like Goddard (this year marks a full century since his pioneering rocket designs).

    You need to remember that a degrading rate of return is natural for certain production industries. It's easy to scoop water near the top of a well. It takes more effort to lower and raise a bucket that must get water 20 feet deep. As various oil spots are tapped, continually deeper drilling is necessary to get at additional oil in the same deposit. This wouldn't be a problem if more lands were opened up to easy, cheap drilling, but right now there's an administration firmly in the way of new permits (and yet tries to take credit for increased U.S. oil production that's come from private drilling).

    The Twilight Zone episode "Of Late I Think of Cliffordville" didn't make this point explicitly, but it's an important observation: in a matter of mere decades, deep-drilling became possible, and in just several years, self-starting car engines were put into commercial prodution. With more people on the planet, especially First Worlders with the imagination, education and monetary ability to make things happen, don't doubt what we can continue to create. I wasn't impressed by the mere fact that Apple created its iPad. The concept wasn't new. I was impressed, however, that they made it a rather light form factor, and at such a price affordable to many people.




    You could do better than citing Chicken Little websites. Do you realize just how old that data is, and that it hasn't been updated with the huge findings of the last few years? Do you know what BP announced just a month ago?



    Do you realize that two centuries ago, people said the same about coal? "What will we do when coal runs out? How will we heat our homes? How will we cook food when all the forests are cut down?" The old song "Bonny Portmore" laments the cutting down of Irish trees, which was true at the time, but look what's happened since: the new and better technologies of industrialization made obsolete the industries that needed rampant deforestation for fuel and materials.

    People will find alternatives. The last two centuries were filled with many enterprising minds who thought of better ways of doing things, and always in time before we "ran out" of a major commodity. AM frequencies had their limitations in quality and spectrum, until someone imaginative and knowledgeable made FM broadcasting feasible. People once fretted about hitting the limit of 1200 baud on modems (2400 if copper and conditions were good), until someone devised modulation to send more bits per baud. I laughed at the same mindset that thought in the early 1990s that we'd hit a data bottleneck with 56K modems, and then in the mid-1990s that Internet usage was increasing faster than fiberoptic lines could support. An Australian co-worker once remarked that they could tell when Americans were waking up and signing on, because their access would slow down. Where's the worry today? In more recent years, it's been the limitation of IPv4 addressing. No big deal: humans found ways to expand, and we will with energy.



    Again, you don't know what the future holds. Once upon a time, the notion of gas stations all around us -- the notion of being able across the continent in an ordinary car on fully paved roads -- was unimaginable to nearly everyone. "It would have cost billions and billions of dollars!" was the same worry then.

    If it's important enough, the $16 trillion U.S. economy can and will absorb the costs of new endeavors. How many people 20 years ago would have paid the inflation-adjusted equivalent of triple digits every month for portable phone access? Basic $17 monthly access to a worldwide data network, never mind high-speed access, wasn't in most Americans' minds. Such costs are a drop in the bucket to a lot of people now.



    And I've been studying this for 23, since my first paper on oil production. Nothing personal, but the difference between is that you seem to have given up. I see an even more marvelous world ahead of me to leave for generations to come. Sometime, go check out the scanned Compute! magazines at archive.org, especially the ads. I was recently trying to find an old article and unintentionally got a refresher on how far we've come, at how many names disappeared, at a few familiar names still around because they adapted. Some thought the modern personal computer itself was finished after many video game publishers went belly-up in 1983.
     
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  20. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *smiles* We have a wonderful and very underused forum for this sort of discussion. I hope you will all continue this conversation there.
     
  21. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Underused because no one much visits Stratics outside of UHall.

    Still, it was like a breath of fresh air while it lasted, something other than the usual garbage of people sniping each other in UHall.
     
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  22. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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  23. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Well... some few of us regular Stratics users should use this forum to discuss other interests we have in our lives. This discussion does not HAVE to end just because it is on another forum. This is still Stratics. Just saying.
     
  24. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Instead of a Mac-PC war, how about iOS-Android. ;)
     
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  25. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    9mm vs .45
     
  26. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I don't call 911, I call upon 1911 ACP. :)
     
  27. yars

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    Coke vs pepsi

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
     
  28. Herman

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    The short answer would be if they was not able to convert existing engines or creat new engines that run on different fuel before the fuel depos run out yes the airplanes would stand still

    But what will happen is long before the oil run out they would have new engines and one of the first that will be gone is the jet engine this engine is a high performance engine that takes alot of fuel these will be replaced by Turboprop turbine propeller engines that are much more cost effective

    I see alot of people in this thread do not understand how OTTO and DIESEL engines work if they would they also would understand how extremly easy it is to convert these engines to run on almost anything

    In order to set up the engine correct so it can run on whatever fuel you are going to use
    You need to know the octane and cetain number of the fuel

    Octane is how much compression the fuel can take before it ignites
    Cetain is how much time it takes from the start of the compression until it self ingites

    an Otto engine work by compress the fuel and just before it self ingintes the spark plug ignite it so you get a controlled combustion
    an diesel engine work by compress the fuel until it self ignites

    It is all about timing you can set these engines up to run on anything that will ignite under pressure but in order to get a high preformace engine you will need a high octane number

    A fun fact is that you can take an old diesel egine like a merc 200d or 180 d from the start of the 1980 and run it direct on deep fry oil

    Reason why you can do this is because the deep fry oil got similar cetain number like diesel

    Now deep fry oil often come in chunks so how could you run a car on that well what happening is that all oil will turn solid when it is cold enough some will stay solid when it is +10c and some is still liquid when it is minus 30c

    so in order to run a car on deep fry oil you need to add anti freeze but not from bottles that would be extremly expensive alot of people do not know that gasoline petrol works just as good as antifreeze for diesel

    so a mix of 90% deep fry oil and 10% E95 probably would stay liquid to around +5 c and yes you can use used deep fry oil the car probably would smell like a hamburger schack just filter out the biggest chunks

    Warning Not that I ever think anyone would try this but if you do DO NOT try it on a new high performace direct injected diesel you need to try it on an old low performance pre chamber diesel Like the Merc 200d or 180 from the start of the 1980 these are known to be able to take alot of abuse
     
    kelmo likes this.
  29. yeahman

    yeahman Visitor

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    If you are intrested in what the future holds I suggest you read the Hirsch report prepared for the US govt in 2005, the depressing thing is that when you read the requirements to mitigate the end of cheap oil you realise that governments the world over are about as useless as tits on a bull for doing anything about it. Carter in the 1970's first put the issue of oil on the agenda, and the need to conserve and to start looking for alternatives, he was promptly voted out of offices as people just don't want to know.