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Grammar of Orchish - Orc Brutes

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Aug 14, 2010.

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  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    edit: I've edited the post to correct my screwed up damage calculations and added information from further down the thread, and corrected the spell resist note.

    I'm not very fond of "nerf this" posts, but enough is enough already.

    Does no one else see a problem with a one slot summons with the following characteristics?

    • can't be dispelled like a typical summons
    • has no skill requirement
    • will keep up to a mounted owner moving at full speed and rarely gets stuck on objects or buildings (both the follow code, and the speed of following are vastly superior to that of any pet)
    • can't be attacked normally by pets (yes that's right, pets won't attack an orc brute, they do defend if they are set to guard but they will only attack once per aggressive act so it is almost impossible to kill an orc brute with pets)
    • has a wrestling skill of 90 - 100
    • has the same resisting spells skill as it's summoner
    • does 23 - 29 points of damage per hit against 70 physical resist (by comparison the greater dragon does 28 - 43 and this is including all possible modifiers and assuming the greater dragon is fully trained; an ornate axe in the hands of an LJ with 150 str, 100 damage increase, 100 lj, 120 anatomy and 120 tactics does 23 - 26 )
    • has 476 - 552 hit points which puts it on a par with a hiryu (not lesser)
    • has a strength range of 767 - 945 which makes it significantly stronger than any other pet
    • also moves faster than any other summons or pet while attacking
    • coordinates it's attacks with it's summoner
    • will hide if the summoner hides

    It is true that they can't be commanded, but their a.i. is pretty good and they will reliably attack any target their summoner is attacking.

    In many ways they are superior to any pet available to a tamer, and taken as a whole are at least on a par with the bane dragon, the dread warhorse, and all the four slot and better pets.

    The following three characteristics make them absolutely killer and are in these respects superior to any pet available to a tamer:

    - will keep up to a mounted owner moving at full speed and rarely gets stuck on objects or buildings (both the follow code, and the speed of following are vastly superior to that of any normal pet)

    - can't be attacked normally by pets (yes that's right, pets won't attack an orc brute, they do defend if they are set to guard but they will only attack once per aggressive act so it is almost impossible to kill an orc brute with pets)

    - is only affected by level 6 poison

    - also moves much faster than any other summons or pet while attacking

    And of course with imbuing it's pretty simple to fit the talisman into a suit without losing much, if anything, in terms of mods.

    edit: I've added my proposed solution here so everything is at the top of the thread:
     
  2. So a non-tamer gets to have something that trumps the Greater Dragon? Well it will be nerfed soon enough. We can't allow anything to compete with that template,now can we?
     
  3. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Never tested it, but should they not be extremely vulnerable to hit dispel on weapons?
     
  4. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ummm, when was the last time you saw a tamer with a greater dragon dominating in pvp? I know I haven't seen one in the past eight months since I got back. I've seen a lot of dead tamers that tried to pvp with a greater dragon, and in fact I've killed a few myself, and I've seen lots of dead greater dragons as well.

    Not to mention the fact that it takes 220 skill points, and a five control slots to control a greater dragon. It takes 0 skill points, and 1 control slot to control an orc brute.

    I don't want them gone from the game, but in my opinion, unless I'm missing something obvious, they are seriously out of whack in terms of their functionality and power. For one thing, you should be able to attack them with pets, even that change all by itself would probably be enough to make me happy. That and they should at a minimum require three control slots, and if they remain as they are, in my opinion they should require four control slots.

    As it is a "pure" tamer, one who relies on pets for primary offence, is pretty much defenceless against orc brutes. Unless again, of course, there is something obvious I'm missing, which is always possible.
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As far as I know they can't be dispelled. I know they can't be dispelled through normal means, such as dispel or mass dispel.
     
  6. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Orc slayer
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And while we're on the topic of tamers, these aren't limited to non-tamers by the way. There's absolutely nothing to prevent a tamer with a dread warhorse from using one of these. I'm considering it myself if for no other reason than it might make sure they get the attention they deserve from the devs faster...
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And every pet except for the dread warhorse and the nightmare also have a slayer vulnerability. That doesn't change the fact that this is an extremely powerful summons that takes no skill points, one control slot, and has abilities that no other summons or pet has, whether they are vulnerable to slayers or not.
     
  9. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Let me lay a couple facts out there for people; because you certainly exagerrated a bit here.

    #1. It only last approximately 600 seconds. Then you have to wait 1800 seconds (from when you first used it) to use it again.

    #2. They only HIT when the "dexxer" hits. And when the dexxer successfully hit you; it has about a 30% chance to hit you. They only hit for between 10-25 (70 Phys) depending on stats it gets. IDK where you are getting your damage at.

    **THIS DOES NOT WORK FOR RANGED OR MAGE SPELLS**

    **Note** The orc bruce will not "swing and miss". It seems it will only swing when the proper checks allow it to successfully hit (And FYI here. If you are fighting any type of Parry/DCI person; that Orc Brute will never hit. EVER)

    #3. They are auto defend. You can easily kill one. Just keep double clicking it as a dexxer; or cast spells on it. Its not like the orc brute player can out heal you.

    #4. As someone else said; Orc Slayer DESTROYS these things. Also; repond works as well. If they bother you that much; you should have one in your arsenal.

    #5. People (usually dexxers) waste a lot of GOOD mods on their tally spot to use these. Sure; it has 12 skill points. But I know if I choose to play a dexxer; I want one of the new mana phasing orbs; the faction primer (Conjurers for trammys); or Totem of the void.

    **SIDE NOTE** I am not sure if you are in factions or not. But if you are using anything undead (Wep; Book; TALISMAN) they will do double damage to you. YES THIS MEANS IT WILL HIT FOR 30+ SO DONT WEAR THEM!!



    ~~~DISCLAIMER~~~
    I play 80% mages; 15% archers; and 5% dexxers. So don't say..

    "YOU JUST DONT WANT YOUR OVER POWERED ORC BRUTE NERFED!!"

    No. It's not that strong. A mage can exp/fs kill this with an orc spell book. Please invest in one and try it. You will laugh at the dexxers attacking you; I promise.
     
  10. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    5 minutes, that's a life time in pvp.

    I figured it out using the damage calculation formulas, and my experience in game bears it out. My character has 70 phys and I've had them do as much as 40 points damage to him.

    My character has 120 weapon skill and 70 dci, so he's always at the 45 dci cap, and he gets hit all the time by them...

    Actually they aren't that easy to kill if you are a mage and you being chased by the summoner, with or without a slayer. And not only that but being wounded doesn't slow down summoned orc brutes the way it does a normal pet. They move just as fast, like lightning actually, whether they are at full health, or just have a sliver of health left.

    Sure there are some nice tallys you could use it it's place, but 12 skill points is nothing to sneeze at, and with imbuing, robes, cloaks, sashes, etc., it's pretty easy to make up anything you might have sacrificed in that slot.

    No I'm not using anything that is an undead slayer.

    And I'm telling you, as an experienced tamer, that these things are as powerful as the three and four slot pets, especially when you take into account that they time their attacks with their summoner's attacks. I didn't realize that they did that. That explains some things, and that is yet another thing that they do that regular pets and summons don't do.
     
  11. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm going to be blunt here, but whatever dev dreamt this one up was on crack. A pet that only hits when you hit? And even assuming it's only 10 - 25 points of damage on 70 phys resist, that's a bigger damage add than hit lightning. If it is hitting 30% of the time, that's like having a weapon with an extra strength 30 hit lightning for free (and 30% does seem about right based on my experience, even with 120 weapon skill and 45 dci).
     
  12. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And to put this in perspective, in seven years of playing UO, I don't believe I've ever started a thread like this about something that I considered to be op. I don't do this sort of thing lightly. I have complained at great length about scripting and cheating, but I think this is the first time I have ever started a thread about something that I considered to be seriously op. I'll be blunt again, from the perspective of an experienced tamer I think the things that orc brutes can do are flat out insane... :)
     
  13. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Orc brutes are indeed over-powered, or at least "unbalanced", and those who mostly defend them, are the ones who are too afraid to play a classic template anymore, and losing the brute would affect their ability to kill folks in felucca. Some just can't cut it without a "pet," and most don't even try anymore.

    The idea of the brute is essentially to double hit a player so that the combined damage of the attacker and his "pet" severely and overpoweringly drops the health of the target.

    Now I know that the same idea holds true with super dragons, hiryus and dreadmares but there is a big difference in those pets and the orc brutes, which has been listed above in this discussion.

    The big thing for me is the Orc brute being able to follow a mounted player at full speed and the allowance of the brute to attack at the exact same moment that the player attacks you.

    Tis been numerous times I have seen a brute jump 6 tiles directly on top of it's victim.

    And I am very sorry if I have crapped in anyone's cornflakes when I decided to voice this opinion, but I do indeed agree that they are out of balance, which should be more than obvious.

    A suggestion: Making the brutes have restrictions more like pets (requiring more slots, or to not be used when mounted) OR summons which can be dispelled.


    It's certainly up for discussion so lets hear it!

    A few points from Mr. Fail are valid, such as about the orc slayer books, and the timer is relevant, but can't someone simply use multiple tamismans every five minutes? I mean yeah you have to recharge them, but you can buy a ton of them, spend hours charging them, then have a good day's suppy of orc brutes. I could be incorrect on this, but I know I have seen people sporting their orc brutes for longer than 5 minutes, even hours it seems like.

    So if if "over-powered" isn't the word, I believe "unbalanced" is somewhere near the mark.

    Regardless, I will continue to deal with them until they are changed, so in a way, it doesn't do any good to "complain", but also this is how issues get resolved in UO, by voicing and discussing them.... *thinks back over the years to all the things that have been changed* Anyone remember the curse spell debate? Remember when Tamers could tame unlimited dragons?

    Have a nice day.
     
  14. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And just to recap before I go to bed, this is what we have in summoned orc brutes.

    We have a pet that:

    - takes one control slot
    - has as many hit points as a full hiryu (and hiryu's are also vulnerable to slayers)
    - hits like a truck
    - moves as fast as a mounted player and doesn't slow down as it takes damage
    - coordinates it's attacks with it's summoner
    - can't be directly attacked by other pets

    I'll just repeat the question from my op. Does no one else see anything wrong with this?
     
  15. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    And I am not sure how you would "balance this" 'OP' item? What changing the control slots would do? Make it so you can't use a pet with it? That's fine. Make it so ninjas cant use mirror images too? Okay. Thats fine as well haha.


    Like I said; I don't care regardless. I don't use them hardly; if at all. It would just make it easier on me. But I by no means think its "over powered".


    And (Although I havent loreed a lot YET for you) but for testing purposes I was luring a buddys orc brute, and it only had 20 resisting spells (He was a dexxer with no resist so maybe that has bearing on it?)

    And just for the record; its they hit *30% of the time* that YOU hit. So that 50% that you are whiffing; it is just standing there being ********.

    So simple math..


    45 HCI/120 Wep Skill --VS-- 45 DCI/120 Wep Skill (Or magery mage wep)

    EQUALS

    50% chance to hit.

    Now multiply 50% by 30%. Thats only 15% of the time THAT YOU SWING that it will hit someone (IF THEY HIT YOU, BECAUSE IT HAS TO HIT YOU TO HAVE A ROLL CHANCE).

    Those are just some rounded numbers. But just saying.

    Either way; just be sure to have your facts 100% correct before you want to present this as a problem, or "out of balance".

    :thumbup1:
     
  16. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Your really going to cry about orc brutes? They have like 0 resisting spells. Cast a para on them and they wont move for 30 seconds. Second, very few pwople play 1 tile dexxers anymore, which is the only temp they work with. Like someone else said to, they are using the tali slot which could be used for the HCI and DI. Granted they can be worked into a suit, but not that easily.
     
  17. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    And lets not forget when it dies or its 10 min timer expires, you have to wear that same talisman for 30 mins to get to use it again. You cant just put it in your pack and have it recharge. You have to activly be wearing it for it to recharge. And if you take it off or die the timer resets.
     
  18. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    As I recall, taliman summons are NOT controllable.

    So they are NOT similar to taming in the most important regard, which is control of activity.

    Otherwise, they pretty much are double damage on some hits in pvp.

    As some of the others have stated, orc or repond slayers should toast them pretty well.

    Now if you could prove that people using the brutes are getting the brute's hits added to theirs 100% of the time, then you'd have something to complain about.

    Otherwise you're whining about tactics you don't like, and offering no suggestions for correction or why others should care.

    Of course you could just get your own orc brute and proceed to show your competitor that you rule, if it's such a great thing, yes?

    :popcorn:
     
  19. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Don't matter...orc brute goes down in two spells...three tops with a book. Dread horse takes a bit longer. :p
     
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Actually I think they have resists, but I'm not positive.

    Anyways they're along the same lines as pots in pvp. EVERYONE has access to it for free (besides the initial cost of the item) just like potions. Either use them or don't your choice.
     
  21. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    lol, no highroad for the OP and you just broke the rules yourself with your post, so quit your whining.
     
  22. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    I agree.
     
  23. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Sure, but I also see something wrong with pet instant logging to avoid the necessity for needing the vet skill to res your pets and the "unintentional" dodge of pet skill loss.

    Your pets are indefinite atm while an orc brute lasts what maybe 5 minutes? It sure as hell doesn't cast at 6/6 casting or bleed with a 30+ damage hit or have a breath attack.
     
  24. Restroom Cowboy

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    Well darn, scissors took paper and now you throw out a rock. :)

    Insta logging pets that are flagged...shouldn't happen. Period.
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm wondering if it isn't a random brute that is summoned each time, but actually the same one, which means it can be trained, or it can lose skills if it's killed. I've seen summoned orc brutes that just walk through my 120/120 para, and others that were para'd for a good length of time.

    So far most of those who have posted to this thread don't understand pets, or how they work, or what would make them balanced or op - in other words most of those who have posted here are your typical pvp'rs.
     
  26. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    Just a thought from what iv read in these 25 posts, if 90% of the people posting are pvp's and there saying orc bruts are easy to kill and not worth using in pvp.

    Mayber there not OP, your just UP, maybe?

    Thunderz
     
  27. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Everything is apparently hard to kill for Llewyn...brutes, heal scripters, etc. despite the PvP community saying otherwise.

    Kinda makes you doubt his PvP'ing skills.
     
  28. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    There is one character on my shard that can beat me consistently one on one, and maybe a handful more that beat me more often than I beat them one on one. Most pvp'rs don't understand how to use summons or pets effectively in pvp, and the ones that have posted in this thread clearly don't understand the significance of the "special powers" of the orc brute.

    What I have yet to figure out is whether or not you get the same orc brute every time, and whether or not they can be trained. They can't be trained using regular pet training methods but if they can be trained that makes them even more insane. My guess is based on what I've see is that they can be.

    I have one now and I'm going to see if I can do some testing and post back on this.
     
  29. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I don't want to see these nerfed to the point of uselessness. However, I do think they need some balancing. Here is what I would propose:

    - They take four control slots (to prevent them from being used in combination with other powerful pets).
    - They can be attacked normally by other pets and summons.
     
  30. SDA1A

    SDA1A Journeyman
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    Some people....
     
  31. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Summoned orc brutes can't even be controlled. All they do is follow the summoner around for a very short amount of time and hit ever so rarely. They hit hard, yes, but that's why you drop it first if you're trying to melee the summoner, which isn't hard due to the fact that they die very easily. Just because you (op) have a little bit of trouble with getting around someone who actually uses one doesn't merit a need for a change.

    Of course they also have been in this game a long time already and if they are truly as affective as you seem to think they are why aren't they a lot more common in PvP? I ask because I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen them used in the field.
     
  32. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I'll agree with the actual PvPers and disagree with the original poster of the thread.

    Orc Brutes are fine the way they are. I can't recall a fight that I've ever lost strictly because of an orc brute. The amount of time you get to have the brute out vs how long it takes to recharge is more than balanced.

    There are so many talisman options now that an orc brute tally is rarely the wise choice.
     
  33. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Llewen I know what happened to make you post this thread. I saw you arguing with him in general chat ;)

    While I disagree with your analysis I will say I don't think people should be able to use multiple orc brute talismans. The person you are talking about (and some others) have 5-10 talismans lined up in their pack and use them to avoid the timer between brutes. I think if you equip one it should take on the timer of the last one you had equipped.

    Other than that I think they are fine the way they are.(Since anyone can use them) An annoyance yes but not something that can't be dealt with. Your rune beetle is an annoyance too ;)
     
  34. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Dang, I didn't know it worked like that. I thought they all went on the same timer. That's BS.
     
  35. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well I tell you what I am going to do. Most pvp'rs don't really know how to use pets and summons to their full advantage. I'm going to make myself a dexxer/tamer who will use a hiryu and one of these, and we'll see if I can make you and your friends understand why I think these orc brutes are insane. If you think my rune beetle is an annoyance, I'm willing to bet you ain't seen nothing yet... ;)

    I predict a lot of one second kills once I get good with the template. But you don't have to worry right away, it is probably going to take me a while to build the character.
     
  36. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    So if your rune beetle is so cool, why not use an orc brute and a rune beetle?
     
  37. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    What shard are you playing on where orc tali users seem to rule? Cuz im sure some real pvpers will love to go there and show them how to fight. I have yet to see a orc brute used effectively in pvp. even on TC (which is the only place ive seen someone stupid enough to use one) You need to learn how to pvm some i guess since you cant kill a simple orc brute with ease. Im thinking someone got killed once by a orc brute user and was trash talked so they ran to uhall to complain instead of change thier tactics. Get killed by a template/tactic? ADAPT AND OVERCOME
     
  38. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Typical Lynk troll... I've put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours pvp'ing, in all kinds of different contexts. Perhaps you should do some research before you post random insults.

    If you are talking about the general chat conversation before I posted this thread, I believe I congratulated him on his kill. It wasn't much of an argument.

    And oddly enough, LC mentioned scripting in his deleted post. It would be pretty easy to create a script that would recharge all those talismans while you were at work, or having a nap.

    My tamer has magery as his secondary template, not a melee skill. He uses a mage weapon, so the brute might be useful, but not incredibly so.

    And I suggest that like Lynk, you should have some idea about what you are talking about before you start throwing out random insults. This is the first thread that I can remember of this nature that I have ever started, in over seven years of playing UO. I am a very experienced pvp'r and I have probably fought against every template going, from the over powered archer templates a few months ago, to ninjas, to mystic mages, to all kinds of tamers, and everything in between.

    I wouldn't post a thread like this unless I thought there was a serious issue that needed attention. The reason why many of the other pvp'rs in this thread aren't seeing what I am seeing, is partly because a few of them are simply trolling, and partly because none of them think like a tamer, and see what I see, or understand what I understand when I see a summons or a pet.

    Anyone who was an experienced pvp tamer, and not just a dexxer or an archer with a pet, would understand why I think the following list is simply insane.
    Unfortunately there aren't many of us playing UO, so I'm not likely to get a huge wave of people posting who actually understand why I have posted this thread. All I can hope is that the devs are paying attention and understand what I am saying better than most who have posted to this thread do.

    As for adapting, I will adapt, I always do, as I said, I've adapted to every other op template or equipment choice I've ever run into, but this issue is bigger than my character, or how well I do or don't do in pvp at any given time.
     
  39. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Do you really in your heart of heart believe that you're the only one fighting this template or that it's new or that you would be any better on it than anyone else?

    Don't talk to these people as if they've never faught it. Just because your opinion differs doesn't mean that no one else knows what they are talking about. There's quite a few TB on catskills that run with that same brute template. We do fight them so you saying we "haven't seen anything yet" does nothing but stir an already bubbling pot. Give people some credit Llewen. You're not the only one out there.
     
  40. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Deleted post? Heck if discussing moderator actions is an offense, then making up moderator actions is even worse.
     
  41. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    You clearly aren't very good at it if you get beaten by a heal script, lol. You normally PvP kindergarden kids?
     
  42. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    so since youve pvped for 7 years i guess that makes you an expert on pvp, even more than the pvpers on this thread that have been in fel since the start, but hey i guess they are all just archers and have never seen or used a tamer, right? Bottom line is the orc brutes are perfectly legal, they are easily defeated by anyone whos actually played UO. Lots of people think pvp tamers are unbalanced/overpowered, so someone comes along with a template that can overcome a pvp tamer and what happens? The tamer screams NERF IT! Keep saying that no one sees what your saying when we all see what your saying and are trying to tell you that your misinformed. It takes practice to use a orc brute and actually be effective (still almost impossible to use one against an experienced pvper and win) so dont act like orc brute dexers are the new hot gimplate of the week. So before ya start screaming nerf on an almost useless item, try and learn a way to beat it.
     
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And you know as well as I do Flutter, I am the only who regularly pvp's the way I do with my particular template on Catskills. There is one other that you might consider close that I can think of and even he is an archer first, not a tamer first. And I very much expect that I am one of the few in the game period that plays a tamer in pvp that is a tamer first, not some other template where taming is really secondary to the main template.

    I very much doubt there is anyone playing on Catskills today that has spent as much time farming and training various pets as I have, and certainly if there are, none of them are pvp'rs. That experience gives me a rather unique perspective on pets, summons and their abilities. There is only one poster, a friend of mine, who has posted to this thread who has an inkling of how truly unique and powerful the orc brute's abilities are.

    I can also guarantee you, that if and when I start playing with an orc brute, my orc brute will not be easy to kill. ;)

    Just to correct the misconception. I've played UO for over seven years. I have been heavily involved in pvp for a little over three years I think. Not as much as many, but certainly enough to have a very good idea about what I am talking about, especially when it comes to pets/summons, which are my specialty.
     
  44. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    And of course, you conveniently forgot that there are more shards out there than just Catskills.

    But oh wait, you're the only one in the ENTIRE game. :thumbup1:

    You're my hero, may I touch you please?
     
  45. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Pet PvP isnt PvP, it's PvPet. You even stated it yourself that your a tamer first. I have a dread mage. Half the time I only get off my horse in ganks. Sounds like you should take some casting lessons from your rune beetle.
     
  46. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Fact of the matter is it doesn't matter what template you play. We've all had to adapt to certain changes in the game over the years.
    If you insist on having taming as your primary template or "main" as it were then it is YOUR responsibility to adapt not everyone else's.
    Do keep in mind that a lot of folks do pvp on multiple shards now, myself included.

    This thead is about Orc Brute talismans not taming templates is it not? Adapt your playstyle around them don't ask for a nerf because your choice of templates is having trouble with them.
    They've been in the game a while, only now you start to complain about them and I'm wondering why. ML came out how long ago? (People really have been using them that long)
     
  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I've only started really paying attention to them recently, and a lot more people seem to be using them recently as well, at least on Cats.
     
  48. canary

    canary Guest

    Basically it seems Llewen hates them because it is more difficult for his specific template to counter.

    I'll toss my opinion in with, well, pretty much everyone except Llewen.

    Not. A. World. Shattering. Crisis.
     
  49. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Then I guess your template needs some fixing if it bothers you so much. The game changes and many other people have managed to change with it. You can't just come and complain and tell the devs to nerf the brute just because you refuse to adapt your play-style.
     
  50. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Thanks, this was what I wasn't sure of (never tried it). We actually agree! What a surprise.

    :stretcher:
     
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