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Greater Dragons and PvP - Comments?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Asmodai, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    Okay i pvp on europa quite alot.

    I think greater dragons do too much damage to players. Im not moaning about them in pvm or anything like that (hella useful for harrys and stuff), but they are just immensely powerful in pvp and its almost unbalanced. I saw the post about the cheaters from an american shard and it looked like there was a ton of greater drags being used in pvp.

    Luckily on Europa there isnt too many people abusing them, but i just generally find it REALLY hard to kill someone with a greater drag backing them up. It can sometimes take like 3 people to take the drag down alone, and it does like 55 damage fireballs every 10 seconds, let alone bleeding you and doing paralyse, nox, and fireballs all from 4 screens away.

    I will tell you now i have a pvp tamer, and from my experience, its far too easy. i dont like playing it because its not really a challenge.

    Dont get me wrong, i know you need to be on foot as it takes up all 5 follower slots, but still to find these gimps with hiding/archery/stealth/taming/lore etc is just a bit too easy for them imo. Im sure UO was not intended to be like this. You now get archer tamers who dismount you, set the drag on you, and what hope in hell have u got unless uve got ninja or u can pull off some quick teleporting.

    Pvp has always been about skill to an extent, but really what skill do u need with a greater drag backing you up. I dont mind tamers with like cu's, mares, beetles etc, i think it's fine, but i personally think these greater drags are far too overpowered. Especially when you consider that the devs did a really good job recently of balancing pvp. It seems like one step forward two steps backward.

    In usual stratics fashion i expect to find a million people disagreeing with me for the sake of it. But i just wanna know what others think. I like greater drags for PVM, but the damage they do in a pvp environment is way over the top.. imo.

    Feel free to comment.
     
  2. Make a peacing disco archer with a horse lord if you don't like them....
     
  3. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    There was some dymb **** talking about how it takes just as much skill to PvP with a greater drag as it does to play a mage. And anyone who says "Oh well just get over it its part of the game", is probably a post_AoS dip**** or someone who never made a name for themselves in PvP before it.
     
  4. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Tamers in PvP = ROFL...la
     
  5. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    Stupidest comment i've ever heard. im not a trammy. i dont pvp JUST to nerf greater dragons. I pvp for fun, to fight, for the challenge.

    I dont pvp for some nob to dismount me, set his overpowered pet on me and kill me with 60 damage hits whilst simulatenously bleeding me.

    The whole point is that this is NOT what pvp is about. It completely unbalances it. I could get an advance char token, put some skill inc items on, and go to fel and kill half the players there because ive got a rediculous pet. All im asking is where the equilibrium has gone.
     
  6. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    So I have to severely underpower my template for the Player part of PvP to take care of the M that shouldn't be there... I don't think so. And I've seen a lot of tamers throw that excuse...
     
  7. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    Also people will disagree with you here because the foundation of these boards are "Trammies" (A term probably not used much anymore). Basically with the introduction of Trammel with UO:R, these kids took all their characters to it and never set foot in Fel. These people are generally the socially handicapped. I got banned from these boards back in 2001 for calling some little *** a "Trammie piece of ****". People can't take a little teasing over the internet, their e-egos get crushed :'(
     
  8. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    hmmm!!!! :)

    Perhaps a tamer with a Greater Dragon is intended to be as much of a big, fat pain in the ass as a Necro-Mage, character and template wise, with all opinions of what each person presumes to be "skillful" PVP set aside.
     
  9. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    You probably weren't PvP'ing when actual skill and real life cunning was what was required to excel in PvP. I'm talking T2A, even into UO:R. Anyone who defends greater drags in PvP was never a real PvP'er, fact.
     
  10. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    theres nothing wrong with necro in pvp. granted it may be slightly overpowered because corpse skin is an item based spell - if you suit doesnt have a decent amount of fire resist then you are weaker than most. but with these new val hammers making uber armour its not really a problem. any guy with 50 chiv can completely nurf the necro debuffs, making them use their mage skills to get the kill.

    theres no presumption of whats skillful or isnt. good mages are skillful, good dexxers are skillful, tamers in general are not skillful. thats where the issue of UBER pets comes in. its easy enough with a mare and beetle let alone a f**king greater dragon.
     
  11. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    First, please dont pay to much attention to that ShuanofPac dude. He may have pvpd before trammel, but his attitude is somewhat lacking. Not all pvprs feel the way he does. Ohh, Ive been pvping for 9 years, so dont accuse me of not knowing whats up. I just get sick of all the high and mighty pvp boardwarriors who give the whole group as a whole a bad name and make us all look like jerks....

    As for the greater dragon, The only thing that annoys me with them is the firebreath that can do like 90ish damage three screens away...I manage to get away from the dragon and his breath manages to get me one/two/three screens away behind a house or some such...thats insanely annoying. They might look at tweaking that spell damage a bit, and maybe reduce the wrestling the dragon does so it dosnt redline you in one hit...

    Other than that if people want to be gimpy and use dragons Im all for it. If your a mage, paralyze that ******* and kill the owner.
     
  12. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    Dragons are all people can use to deal with the 3rd party programs people are running these days.

    Cheaters 0
    Dragons 1
     
  13. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    Dexxers have never really been "skillful". Nowadays it takes a bit more than it used to to play them, but not much
     
  14. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    No, more like

    Dragons 1
    Honest PvPers 0
     
  15. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    Char names? You may have PvP'ed, but probably weren't very well known for it. And I'm not a jerk, I'm just ridiculously blunt.

    As far as drags, just reduce the damage they do to players, let them keep their offensive ability PvM.
     
  16. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    I definitely agree. By all means let tamers pvp, why should they be excluded. But make them work for their kills. Drags are too damaging when considering the delicate balance that has been taken into account for pvp. I would like to fight tamers, but at least make it a half decent fight for the both of us.

    Okay so parry mages are strong against dexxers/weak against mages, necro mages strong against most/nerfed by chiv, bush dexxers good against other dexxers but weak against paralyse/mana vampire etc etc. everyhting is balanced. everything has its strengths and weaknesses.

    But come on, theres nothing particularly weak about a greater dragon. They are still a ***** to kill and rediculously strong. You can barely get a spell off on the owner before that dragon breath takes you dont to half life, whilst the tamer simulatenously dismounts/ebolts you. You cant even lure the drag off with the pet changes implemented.
     
  17. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    QFT.
     
  18. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    OSI just needs to reduce the damage tamed greater drags do to players. Easy fix.
     
  19. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    not quite. in fact greater drags in pvp make me wanna download a speedhack just to compete with the dragon, to actually get the f**k away from the thing.

    If anything these gimp templates encourage honest people to cheat. when it spams paralyse on a dexxer whilst doing a 60 damage hit the next second it makes me wanna download a scripting prog to get a trapped box script. no mage could para u and cast flamestrike that quickly, let alone do that amount of damage.
     
  20. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    I say let powerful bards be able to provoke a dragon onto its owner. Maybe make it a 1 in 5 chance of success. Make the tamer actually have to command its pet rather than just saying all guard me while running in the opposite direction of the fight in wolf form. Biggest problem with greater dragons is their is no real anti tamer template. Bards should be that template and simple discord just isnt enough. Its not like it would make a bard overpowered in pvp because its not like a bard is gonna kill anyone else other than getting a tamer killed. I say if people wanna play with dragons let me bring out my bard.
     
  21. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    This topic seems to come up in a blaze of posts every few weeks. Someone cries foul, others yell back, a 5 page debate rages on with everyone being p.o'd.

    The dragons are NEW addition to the game.. you can't use the same ol' macro's to take em out. They are not meant to be one hit kills.. or they would be 2-3 slot pets. They are the top of the tamer food chain at the moment, and require some different strategy and tactics.

    Maybe give that a try before we beat this dead horse again?

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  22. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    What you wrote reads like a personal attack that is not based upon actual knowledge of my person or abilities. It also does not address the content of what I wrote. When you write something that actually does that, I'll read it and pay attention to it.

    You could start with: demonstrating if what I wrote is perhaps either true or false, and if it's true, why you feel it's a bad structure for UO.
     
  23. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    On LS there just aren't many greater dragons in PvP, and those that exist seem easy to avoid.

    I see them at the Yew Moongate once in awhile.

    Given how powerful they are, thus is puzzling to me. I'm assuming they have some disadvantage I'm not thinking of, like not being able to ride a mount counts for way more than I'd have guessed.

    -Galen's player
     
  24. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    i quite like this idea. whilst it doesnt solve the problem of some guy fully destroying me with his pet, it does allow some kind of flexible teamplay to occur. a bit like having a detect hidden tracker to hunt out those damn stealthing archers.
     
  25. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    what strategy and tactics are these?

    Impossible to kill one vs one. Still rather hard with 3 friends. All the tamer does is say ALL FOLLOW ME, ALL GUARD ME, ALL KILL and thats it. You cant stop it from following him, guarding him, or killing. Paralyse barely works because they have high magic resist.

    Greater Dragons are a new unbalanced addition that was implemented for people who play trammel, NOT felluca. This is clear. Tamers love it, trammies love it, every person ive EVER spoken to in pvp hates it.
     
  26. Still Frame

    Still Frame Guest

    Lets make a template thats worthless for anything buy killing super drags when your attempting to pvp.
     
  27. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    Granted its a good thing, there shud be some kind of penalty for hoarding such a powerful pet. But this is where u find stealthing ninja archers with taming and lore.

    The template needs to be nurfed, or the dragons need to be less hard hitting in pvp. Im not proposing any solutions yet, im just bringing up the fact that they ARE overpowered.

    If you could make the dragon somehow unresponsive to its owner for a few minutes even, it would be ten times easier than these huge creatures which seem to obey their masters like some kind of dancing bear.

    when you look at it that ways its almost unrealistic anyway. In the heat of a battle a dragon should have the potential chance of going out of control or killing its master.
     
  28. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest


    Thats the logic that led to the creation of Trammel.
     
  29. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Just make certain pets not able to be taken into Felucca, problem solved.
     
  30. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    No, then they cant do champ spawns and they'd ***** and moan. Just nerf pets damage against players.
     
  31. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    im not denying the use of greater drags in pvm either. they are useful.

    barracoon isnt gonna come on this forum and complain about it.

    but actual players who die a hell of alot easier than barracoon are.

    essentially 2 hits from a greater dragon = dead

    even with 150 hp on a dexxer these things screw me because they bleed. you need two bandages which take 6-8 seconds to heal 60 hp whilst the drag has bled me, wrestle hit me for 40 hp and firebreathed me twice for 60 hp in the same amount of time.
     
  32. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    There are already many alternate strategies and skill sets brought to light in this thread (and the dozen that preceeded it). Talented people who've adapted their playstyle, strategy and tactics for this new addition. Try it instead of complaining about it. I am waiting for a follow up thread detailing the various methods you've used and the outcome of these encounters.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  33. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    look. pvp is ten years old. people are still playing this game purely for the pvp. why should i have change the way ive played for ten years because a bunch of trammy tamers got a new present?

    i dont want to make a character to kill a greater dragon in pvp. i'd go to destard in trammel if i wanted to do that. a bard template should counter a dragon, but clearly they dont with the comments we have already read.

    in my guild we have a medic type char, she plays with hiding/stealth/mage/detect hidden/tracking and she is perfect for stealth archers. she reveals them, we hunt them down and kill them. allow the same for greater dragons with a bard or something, even though NO ONE in fel wants to play a bard.
     
  34. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    If we were to say hypothetically, that greater drags were nerfed, the "overpowered tamer" argument wouldn't end. It would move on to the next set of pets and the next after that until we were standing with maybe 2 grizzly bears.

    I'm not saying that to be awkward, but there have been complaints about kitsune, runeys and mare combos and I've seen an odd complaint in game because someone was pulverised by a pack of frenzies. There are a lot of pets out there, which, in the right hands, are deadly. Some PvPers will insist on going down the list demanding nerfs lol.

    So while greater drags are strong pets, removing them somehow isn't going to silence the anti-tamer crowd in PvP.

    I would suggest better options would be to require real skill for pet control (at least in Fel, ideally everywhere) and 80 vet and lore before any fighting pet would bond with the owner. Both would put the super-hybrid templates down a few pegs with the increased skill requirement. If a player wasn't willing to invest in vet skill, they'd have to rely on disposable pets.

    Next on the hit list might be the use of animal form when a tamer is already using all 5 slots for pet control.

    I'm running thin on ideas beyond that, but I think any changes which were deemed necessary for greater drags should take into account the fact that some tamers are using them in fel PvM and don't want to be rendered as sitting ducks at a champ spawn, simply to satisfy PvPers. There's a fine line between re-balancing and nuking when it comes to EA, and I don't want another reptalon "overnerf"

    Wenchy
     
  35. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Not everyone in the game is playing purely for pvp.

    I'm just asking if you have tried using some different strategies/tactics/skill sets. If you haven't, please try, then come back and tell us if anything you've tried has worked.

    I'm sure you don't mean to, but you are not coming across very well with your point. Not wanting to do what is necessary to counter some tamer/uber combo is not a valid reason for the developers to nerf something that affects everyone.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  36. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    I agree with wenchy.

    but i still think essentially:

    pvp = player vs player = felluca.

    pvm = player vs monster = trammel.

    pvp templates are designed to play against players. i really dont think we shud nerf our chars because people are abusing an absurd pet. keep the bakes/mares/beetles. they are a ***** but its not much of a problem.

    you get three people working together with 3 greater dragons and fel becomes another trammel dungeon.
     
  37. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    I take out tamers with greater drags. Its not easy, and if they have ANYONE else attacking you its impossible. Precast Paralyze field, when they sick the drag on you drop it. Drop 2 more between you. Invis(I have magic clothing items from WAYYYYY back, altogether over 10,000 charges of invis) and take out the tamer. The only problem arises when theres other people attacking you, which is 98% of the time.
     
  38. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    well i am talking purely about pvp. you can do what you want but pvp has always been about balance. its not easy playing all red characters. i miss out on all of the new events, get nothing new that benefits me, and get ganked to **** by blue archers. It's fine, i cope with it.

    but i think overpowered pets designed to kill monsters with 1000 hp being taken to kill a player with max 150 hp is unfair.

    And how does it affect everyone? keep it the same in trammel/against monsters. But sort out that rediculous 70 fireball damage it spams like a newb.
     
  39. Asmodai

    Asmodai Guest

    even then, i have found that these new dragons dispel fields. a tamer archer can use his pet to dispel fields! outrageous.
     
  40. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    Never had a pet dispel it. Once the drag is in my field the tamer will usually try to search through his book to get the spell, but I have the ability to dump lower level spells insanely fast, and can usually kill 99% of people with magic arrow/harm/fireball without any issues
     
  41. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'll post some things I've posted elsewhere, and add some more. First, about the skill it takes to play a tamer. It takes no skill to play any template badly, but I will admit, a pvp tamer with a greater dragon, played badly, will do better than say, a necro mage, played badly, or maybe than just about any other template, but any template played badly will do badly, and that includes greater dragons.

    As for overpowered or underpowered. I can only talk about the shard that I play regularly, and on my shard, I don't see a lot of greater dragons in pvp. Right after they were released, I did see a lot of them, but that has pretty much died out. I now see one tamer that regularly pvp's with a greater dragon. She does pretty well, but she is skilled, and she is backed by the largest pvp guild on the shard, so no matter what template she was playing, she should do well given her skill level and the support she has.

    Most other tamers that I see that come with greater dragons, don't know how to play them well, and they generally end up dead, and often the dragon ends up dead as well. Even some that do know how to play them, don't generally do that well, and will generally switch to some other template, because they don't have the backup required, that the one successful pvp tamer with a dragon that I know has.

    A skilled tamer does not use one pet for every situation. A skilled tamer knows what pets match which situation the best, and for the most part, in pvp, a greater dragon is not your best choice. Regardless of what was posted in this thread, they are extremely vulnerable to bards. They hit hard, and are hard to kill, but they are extremely slow. They are probably a good choice at spawns, because of their toughness they deal with spawn better than just about any other pet, but in other pvp situations, there are almost always better choices to make.

    I will repeat here something that I posted elsewhere as well. Greater dragons are an easy target for those that wish to complain, because they are obvious, and they are "the flavour of the month". Before them it was rune beetles and cu sidhe. But anyone who does any serious amount of pvp'ing should notice, it is the warrior/tamers with cu sidhe and hiryu's that are actually much more successful than tamers with greater dragons right now.

    What I would hope would happen before the devs make any game "balancing" decisions, no matter what that decision is, whether it deals with tamers, or necro/mages, or archers, or whatever, is that they do their research and check their facts. I would hope that they wouldn't only listen to complaints on forums like this, but would actually take the time to see what is actually going on the field, and if possible, gather concrete statistics to base their decisions on.

    My stats professor in university always started his first year stats students off with the following, "There are three kinds of information: lies, damn lies, and statistics..." The devs would do well to take that to heart before they make any game changing decisions.
     
  42. Nestorius

    Nestorius Guest

    Please. No profanity or rudeness here.
     
  43. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    I'm blunt and I speak my mind. Everything I say is backed up by logic and well structured. If people can't take it over the internet, how the hell do they survive in the real world?
     
  44. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    They join the army
     
  45. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    Army is pathetic.
     
  46. The_Dude_

    The_Dude_ Journeyman
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    Actually what u do is make this template then have a program run a script that instead of area peaces everything in seconds it discos all pets. w/o timers. The same guild i posted about using those ittps now has this running as well.

    Then again in my last post i was told to adapt... Think its funny all the complaints about bods runners and gold farmers people were never told to adapt. When another valid complaint about cheaters came up I was told to adapt. Its a freaking joke was uo has become.

    I mean it only took how long for those bod runners and scripters to get banned. Maybe in 3 years(when theres 4 ppl left playing uo) these cheaters will get delt with.
     
  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Let's take a look at your so called "logic and structure":

    I see a whole lot of opinions and name calling, but not much in the way of "logic".

    Let's take a closer look at some of your "logic".

    So what you are saying is, greater dragons should be nerfed because you can't take them out when you are outnumbered, but you can beat them one on one? That's a brilliant piece of logic there. Anyone that I can't beat when I am outnumbered, should be nerfed! Absolutely brilliant!
     
  48. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest


    Haha you're too easy of a target for me to pick on, I won't even venture here.
     
  49. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    Oh please do venture there. I been waiting to see how you are gonna come back from that
     
  50. ShaunOfPac

    ShaunOfPac Guest

    You seem to be rather obsessed with me.