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Greater Dragons in PvP

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Zan186, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. Zan186

    Zan186 Guest

    Well I see the pathetic pvpers already starting to gather up Greater Dragons to fight for them. I don't know why the developeres allowed these Greater Dragons to be tamed. 1000hp's and the ability's that they have is completely unbalanced.
    It is bad enough you allow them to be used in pvm, but in pvp it is rediculous.

    Either nerf them in Pvp severly so they are like Normal Dragons, or make them 10x more susceptible to dragon slayers. It would be really nice if the Dragon Slawer Lance Artifact did two hit kills on these beasts! Then my complaint would go away!
     
  2. LordIssac

    LordIssac Guest

    They are overrated.

    They are slow
    The tamers are easy targets on foot (And with the changes to petballs)

    The dragons get a couple kills...but they don't win fights.
     
  3. And so it begins again... another post to reduce the effectiveness of tamer/pet in pvp...

    Death to tamers in pvp by papercut.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  4. Aren't we done with this topic yet?

    Fixes are coming to the pet ball that more than balance greater dragons in pvp. If you still can't counter them, figure out how.
     
  5. <blockquote><hr>

    Aren't we done with this topic yet?

    Fixes are coming to the pet ball that more than balance greater dragons in pvp. If you still can't counter them, figure out how.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you kidding us? have you ever PvPed? These new dragons aren't fair to say the up-most about them, my slayer book hardly does surface damage to them. There's not an oz of skill in dismounting, and saying all skill and sittin back drinking coffee watching your pet do all the work.

    The petball fix is nice, but doesn't have anything to do with mid 60 firebreath to 70 fire resist, teleport right next to you screens away. I think once you step through to the felucca facet, the super dragons should be dumbed down in PvP.

    It's sad when a dragon is stronger than a ancient wyrm, and you're capable of killing an ancient wyrm faster than these new dragons.

    I've seen alot of crap come and go, I've watched mages get shafted since UO:R, and it's disqusting, the biggest bone we had was right before they capped FC/FCR, and you guys moaned and cried about that as well, that got nerfed.

    So, to all real PvPers, keep "crying" maybe one day EA/Mythic will realise they're killing the desire, and soul of true PvPers because of the outrageous abilities they given their favorite classes - tamers/warriors.

    It's disqusting hearing tamers, and dragons in PvP isn't it? From my time frame they was used to make money and other loot. Now they're wide spread on the field as if they belong there, and if something is calling them and saying hey, it takes talent to say "All kill". ::Rolls Eyes::
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    It's sad when a dragon is stronger than a ancient wyrm, and you're capable of killing an ancient wyrm faster than these new dragons.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Have u fought an Ancient Wyrm lately? heh
    If not, do go try ;P
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    All tamers like myself would like to see is that the PvPers of UO tested the pet ball changes first, get that bit of the "system" in order and let it on prod shards, then once we see the effects of those changes, we're in a position to say with some accuracy if they're enough.

    The greater dragons don't always teleport, nor will they all do the max damage. Once PvP tamers get hit by the pet ball changes, it's debatable how many of them will use the greaters anyway.

    Let's do this properly, rather than mess up a pet simply because members of the PvP community couldn't wait a few weeks.

    Wenchy
     
  8. <blockquote><hr>

    I've seen alot of crap come and go, I've watched mages get shafted since UO:R, and it's disqusting, the biggest bone we had was right before they capped FC/FCR, and you guys moaned and cried about that as well, that got nerfed.

    So, to all real PvPers, keep "crying" maybe one day EA/Mythic will realise they're killing the desire, and soul of true PvPers because of the outrageous abilities they given their favorite classes - tamers/warriors.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    eheh.

    Oh no! You mean, they tried to make warriors a significant PVP class in UO:R? How dare they, this is supposed to be Mages Online!!!

    Outrageous abilities of tamers/warriors to uh lets see... kill a mage now and then!

    Oh, wait a second here - - The most serious PVP guilds (meaning, the ones who make their gold in the UO world through group fighting (and WINNING) while raiding and defending Felucca champ spawns) use almost all red mages. Necro-mages, nox mages, wrestle mages, wrestle-necro-mages, chiv mages... I guess Mages are still ruling the roost after all.

    A "real", "true" PVPer is, after all, defined by whether you're on a mage or say, a lesser class, such as a warrior. Winning in PVP is an executive priviledge that belongs to mages alone!

    ----------------------

    I killed a mage with my superdragon the other night!!! And a few nights before that, my superdragon killed a ninja dismount archer who happened to be in Ki-Rin form. I think the archer might not have had much DCI and the dragon's very high wrestling might have given it around a 50% chance to hit.

    Oh the outrage.

    And earlier this week my archer killed a mage in Despise. I chased him down with my HLD composite bow, alternating armor ignore with no weapon special (its necessary to stop moving at just the right times and hold position to make this work) and then occasionally kicking in moving shot when the time was right.

    What trash PVP, I should just delete all of my chars and kill myself irl.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Tamers might be slow when they're on foot, but it also allows them to dismount....which negates the slowness. A tamer with a super dragon need only use the bola + teleport exploit to dismount somebody and then watch their dragon destroy them.

    We told the team before they put the dragons in that they would be trouble in PvP... but they didn't listen.
     
  10. Cygnas

    Cygnas Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Let's do this properly, rather than mess up a pet simply because members of the PvP community couldn't wait a few weeks.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with what she said. And besides, if the greater dragons were really that all-powerful, why do you see anything else BUT the greater dragons in PvP? You don't.

    Don't nerf tamers, or any other single play style. Balance PvP, not nerf individual skills or pets... there's a difference. If things were balanced, you would see an equal number of each character type in PvP. There should be an equal number in PvP for bards, dexers, mages, ninjas, AND tamers.
     
  11. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    Making dexer a significant pvp class is indeed a good thing. As a vet player myself, I agree with you UO used to be Mages Online. Back then it was Hally Mage dominates PvP (other than tamers with 20 dragons) where dexers are truly "lesser" pvp class and Archers were completely joke.

    It's a good thing to make dexer to be good but it's not good in a sense to make classes that requires insignificant "Player Skills" to play to have the power AND defense surpass the only class that requires real player skill to play.

    When is the last time nowdays you see a PURE mage (no necro no other crap) "dominates" in PvP? We all see archers doing 2-shot kills that requires zero skill or timing, and tamers killing people with a dismount and a UOA macro. It's bad to make the class that requires the most player skill to become the "lesser" pvp class.

    Magee without necromancy is almost an easy kill or a moving dummy or a free cash dispensing mechine whatever you like to call it. A pure mage is no longer viable today. Last time I tried my pure inscribe mage, I can survive OK but I can't kill that archer who knows when to run. Warriors now have it easy, as long as you know when to run. Heck I had an archer moving shot at me while he was running for his life and let me tell ya that 35+ dmg moving shot thru 70 resists from a heavy isnt fun at all. Mages if on the move deals zero dmg and heal zero HP.

    Ideally, a class that requires skill should be slightly better that classes everyone can play. Not much but there should be advantages for the player skill it requires.

    Im a vet and I adapted and picked up necromancy. I can kill yes but when I see a trammy archer with a balanced 40 fireball 40 velocity 35ssi crossbows killing people in two shots within 3 seconds with a playstyle that requires almost zero skill, then run away if his opponent got one good spell off or two, of course every vet would be a bit upset. [​IMG]
     
  12. Oh no! you got me there!
    turns out I've never pvp'd...

    I'm joking, of course. I've pvp'd both as and against tamers. I prefer pvping against them, but that's mostly because I can counter tamers pretty effectively. I prefer to pvp on a necro-mage; not because I think they're overpowered, but rather that I just like how they play.

    You can continue with your ad hominem attacks, but it doesn't make your point any more valid.

    You're implying that all there is to playing a tamer in pvp is all kill and target. That's like saying all there is to playing a dexer is click n stick (obviously not true in competitive pvp). All kill is NEVER enough to take down a well-played pvper. There is no 1 hit kill.

    As for the dragons, there are counters for everything in the dragon's arsenal.
     
  13. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    What I find pathetic, is the constant crying over the whole situation.
    Balance is another word for "being fair"....not much more. Man, if you can't kill these things as you are, find a way to do it instead of screaming NERF.

    Balance is for gimps, and not much more. Either handle it or bail out, but you guys have got to stop the balance/nerf cry when you get beat up.

    Tactics may require some thinking, but these overrated lizards can be beat....ask around.
     
  14. <blockquote><hr>

    Making dexer a significant pvp class is indeed a good thing. As a vet player myself, I agree with you UO used to be Mages Online. Back then it was Hally Mage dominates PvP

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I miss being able to actually use a Halberd! It used to be a usable weapon. Although in the end I seemed to do better with an executioner's axe.

    <blockquote><hr>

    It's a good thing to make dexer to be good but it's not good in a sense to make classes that requires insignificant "Player Skills" to play to have the power AND defense surpass the only class that requires real player skill to play.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's part of why it's good when UO development added a degree of complication to having a good warrior. Stuff like weapon specials and so on should be helping with that. I say *should be*, because I know of some cases where it's not working quite right.

    On the one hand, the potential 'combos' that might exist with weapon specials are not fully utilizeable right now because equiplastweapon only allows a fast swap between 2 weapons, plus it is a serious penalty to your swing timing to switch a weapon. This is a case where there's an opportunity for increased complexity of warrior strategy that's not being used optimally by the game mechanics.

    A point of imbalance in the other direction: there's certain PVP archers out there who pump up their stats and DI to the extreme using a potion-dependent template (and predictably, abuse potions via. automatic potion chugging scripts as part of this process), and they run with crossbows which are both so rare and so powerful that they are for all practical purposes unobtainable to you.

    <blockquote><hr>

    When is the last time nowdays you see a PURE mage (no necro no other crap) "dominates" in PvP? We all see archers doing 2-shot kills that requires zero skill or timing, and tamers killing people with a dismount and a UOA macro. It's bad to make the class that requires the most player skill to become the "lesser" pvp class.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The 2-shot archers I've been killed by are the ones I described above. They do represent an imbalance, but its a complicated imbalance that utilizes abusive potion chugging scripts and very rare crossbows. As someone who is not abusing potions in this way, even if I somehow got ahold of a bow like that for my archer, I couldn't 2-hit anyone with it.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Magee without necromancy is almost an easy kill or a moving dummy or a free cash dispensing mechine whatever you like to call it. A pure mage is no longer viable today. Last time I tried my pure inscribe mage, I can survive OK but I can't kill that archer who knows when to run. Warriors now have it easy, as long as you know when to run. Heck I had an archer moving shot at me while he was running for his life and let me tell ya that 35+ dmg moving shot thru 70 resists from a heavy isnt fun at all. Mages if on the move deals zero dmg and heal zero HP.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A thought on this. I have an archer who does this type of thing to people. I can't hit for 35 because the stats have a lot invested into dex/stamina instead of pumping str. I tend to hit for 25. If someone is hitting you for 35 (not counting hit spell) with a heavyx and they aren't hitting a weak resist, they are probably not at 150+ stamina and that means they generally cannot swing a 40ssi heavyx faster than 3 seconds. With someone hitting that hard with a heavy, a mage should be able to hit greater heal FAST, right after that shot lands, and get the heal off without being interrupted by the next swing. They'd have to not waste time, though.

    If it's a 40ssi 45 DI 45 lightning heavyx that hits for a total damage of 35 including the extra damage from the hitspell, and the guy has 150+ stam and he gets several consecutive hits in where the hitspell goes off, you may be screwed. I wish I had a weapon like that [​IMG].

    <blockquote><hr>

    I can kill yes but when I see a trammy archer with a balanced 40 fireball 40 velocity 35ssi crossbows killing people in two shots within 3 seconds with a playstyle that requires almost zero skill, then run away if his opponent got one good spell off or two, of course every vet would be a bit upset. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you're referring to actual trammy archers, I know what you mean (but those aren't the type who carry the kind of crossbow you describe).

    Those templates are high DI, high STR, moderate HCI, high resists, but they are missing other stuff. They have a huge damage dump at the outset, they hit hard as hell in 1 on 1 PVP and it can be really hard to live through all that damage. But they have serious achilles heels. Out in the field they never evade my first dismount shot due to the lack of DCI. They aren't built for mana, they cannot moving shot you hardly all and after a few chained weapon specials their mana pool is exhausted and it's not being regenerated back any time soon. So in a sense yeah the trammie PVM type archer templates are "overpowered" in that initial damage dump, but it can kinda work out because that damage dump exists independent of being able to chain specials well.
     
  15. RathofLS

    RathofLS Guest

    Aot of the people I see PVP'ing are running several hacks, how do I know because they brag about it, GM's do nothing. So in order to better beat the hackers they allowed super dragons. Seems fair to me.
    Mages have since Day one been the upper class of this game, never have they been nerfed or left to rot for years without any boost or upgrade. How long did archers wait to be allowed to compete in PvP? this is the first time in a long time that every class has a chance to PVP. Just the other day my minner killed a mage , it was just glorious, to say the least.
    Can anyone tell me how long it takes to get to 120 taming? How long to build a mage? A mage is less than 5 days thats a 120 necro mage too... A tamer well if its so easy you try and do it...Oh and please no crap about how you would never oh the horror, i would never lower myself BS... You dont do it because you cant, its that simple its not fast and its not easy, and if you do it and all you do is yell all kill, while you drink coffee and think thats it, then you will be grey vision alot.

    Keep crying and keep dieing...
     
  16. My OneSelfer

    My OneSelfer Guest

    the big stronger slower dragons dont need to be speedhackers too to toss out a 60 point hit while their owners follow up with an explode fs to end your srry lives

    pvp tamers are the lowest form of pvpers and the greatest of trammies

    ea sux and so does uo
    get out now
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    pvp tamers are the lowest form of pvpers and the greatest of trammies

    ea sux and so does uo
    get out now

    [/ QUOTE ]This, here, is an example of one of the reasons PvPers are unpopular outside of their own circles.
    Can't you guys try and debate things like intelligent people, without insulting anyone who doesn't do as you do?
     
  18. My OneSelfer

    My OneSelfer Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    pvp tamers are the lowest form of pvpers and the greatest of trammies

    ea sux and so does uo
    get out now

    [/ QUOTE ]This, here, is an example of one of the reasons PvPers are unpopular outside of their own circles.
    Can't you guys try and debate things like intelligent people, without insulting anyone who doesn't do as you do?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    been trying to do that for years and the only changes go to the trammy
    if you cant see that youre blind

    pvpers are only known in their own circles becuz we remember the game at its best
    tho sad to say the memories are so faded from all the crap they catered to for the profit

    technically we call them sellouts
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    So... There have been no PvP fixes?
    No minor tweaks?
    No large, sweeping changes to how many abused systems in PvP function?

    Oh ho! You're the blind one, if you think PvP doesn't get any attention.

    There is a handful of problems, though.
    Because of the direct competitive nature of PvP, any imbalance that exists within skills is going to be discovered, and used by players to gain the advantage. Be that tactics that combine the abilities of different skills, with an element of player skill, or pure gimp tactics.
    The only way balance ever can be achieved is through a complete rewrite of the game mechanics, making each skill a direct analogue of every other skill. No distinctions in skill, or ability. That way, all that remains is player skill. But, then, some players will be better than others... And some will cheat... So there's still no balance.


    PvPers are only "known" in their circles?
    I didn't say that.
    I said "unpopular outside of"
    Do you know what that means?
    It means that people who don't subscribe to the "omgwtf u sux lrn2UO" school of debate, don't appreciate your methods of debate. A position in a debate should stand on its own merits, rather than the merits of the debater being able to insult their opposition. This is where you fail.

    And, in closing.
    You are trying to present opinions as facts.
    It is your opinion that the game was at its best when everyone had to be wary, at all times, of people with itchy twitch-fingers. When you could lose everything you worked for on a momentary lapse of concentration, or an unavoidable exploit.
    Spending as little as 10 minutes skimming through MMO theory would tell you, conclusively, that that is a niche appreciation.
    Niche games do not flourish.
     
  20. Opinion or not, if UO's past wasn't better, then why is it that's there's not even half of the player base that there used to be 2 years ago? That's saying alot, hello. After AoS launch it was a huge slap in the veterans faces that played for years.

    Made all characters useless to get more people to play a game that wasn't completly Trammied.
    Real Rogues took a huge hit - I side them with them when I say that they should get some love and collect insurance whilst trying to steal an insured item. Give em Love!

    Archers - Went from being the most useless skill of all time like taste ID, to the cream of crop with this occasional 2 hit wonder shots.

    Necros - They're a power-house if played well, a delay should be added to the curses, unless removed by apple, or remove course, also they need to add a delay to those as well.

    Old content never being finished, like the old necro regs I used to collect. Funnay?

    Basically in short, PvM wasn't ruined, PvP was ruined once publish 16 hit with power scrolls I seen the tears form in real pvper's eyes, and watched the best quit the game because some kid that can blow 80+ hours a week in game is killing them because of the items the "kid? horded, or bought with a credit card on ebay.

    The game was meant to be hard, now it's easy as pie. Good old Trammie cries getting taken over the people's that stuck with the orignal land mass.


    Blah. Disqusting.

    Mages where power-housed at launch because of FC/FCR, but now suck if you play pure, and you have paladins that cast faster than you.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Opinion or not, if UO's past wasn't better, then why is it that's there's not even half of the player base that there used to be 2 years ago? That's saying alot, hello. After AoS launch it was a huge slap in the veterans faces that played for years.

    [/ QUOTE ]You're completely ignoring the fact that there was very little competition, back then.
    So, I can accept that, when compared to the competition of the time, UO was a better game.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually that is an incorrect statement. There was Meridian 59 :) heh, also for that matter it really wasn't much after UO launched that EverQuest came around.


    I will let everyone into a little secret that EA does not want you to know. They do not want to have all the templates balanced. EVER.

    You see if they balance the templates then people wouldn't be searching for the next template of the day. So there will always be one or two player classes that will be over powered. EA just makes sure to change it around ever once in a while to get all the hordes to work new templates and keep playing and paying.

    It is not in their interest to balance all the skills in the game.

    Oh.. Mages only rule in field fighting in big groups such as spawns. The complaints that I'm reading about regarding the Super Dragon are valid but really only at one place, YEW GATE. Have you seen any tamers anywhere else? You may see a big guild use them to do a Harry, but not to often.

    The reason everyone hates these Dragons is that at Yew gate the instant the tamer sick’s the Dragon on someone, every other gate hiding blue jumps in to help.

    In closing I've played non-stop since 1997 and i do have to agree that it really sucked when you spent all day mining to have some Pker come buy and kill you and then loot you. But since the introduction of Tram the game no longer provides that nervous sick feeling in your gut and sweaty palms you got from never knowing if a PKer would appear.

    This was the magic of UO.. it offered the entire range of emotional feelings, from extreme anger to outright jubilation when you killed the PKer who was trying to PK you. Fel/UO is not about PvP anymore, it's about ganking.