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Grinds promote scripting

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sevin0oo0, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Are Grinds the direct cause of scripting?

    Years ago: I just don't remember a scriptor problem. We enjoyed doing most of it ourselves
    Today: Take any of the top grinds in UO and they're all scripted.

    Skills, scripted, as before, tweaked, but many still just don't have the time
    Mining, Wood, scripted - tweaked time and again, maybe a grind originally, but many still did it
    Heartwood, scripted - trying to get that one single recipe you need, or maybe a better talisman
    Bods - My list of grinds go on and on - What's on Yours?


    I personally enjoyed lumberjacking and mining, I buy it now. I knew my map from that Brit Bar would go poof, it's been so long since I've dug, I knew it would take that long just to figure out how to make a shovel.

    Does the doldrums and drudgery of doing many tedious things spawn the scripting?
    Seems if it was fun, we'd just as soon do it ourselves. Who would pay for someone else to go do something Fun?? Maybe the kids, or a friend, sure wouldn't be to a Robot. There's even AFK monster killers
    Is this a now permanent way of life in UO? more grinds, more bots? Just wondering what others think and should this direction be changed?
    Or, are people just too lazy to Work for their Fun?
     
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  2. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    There is no easy answer to this question.

    I can honestly say I have never bought my resources. If I need valorite ingots, I go mining for them. However, some people do not find this fun. So, they will purchase their resources. The need for resources drives the demand, which drives the suppliers to supply. Some people will mine one click at a time, which is good...some people will run a script (also good)...and others will run scripts unattended (bad on several levels)

    As long as people want resources, and EA does not stop unattended scripting, somone will do it. The only other way to get rid of it would be to eliminate the need for resources, which would not allow a lot of people to play the game they want to play. I would not like UO so much if I didn't need to venture forth to acquire resources for myself or my friends.
     
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  3. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    Fun is all subjective.
    One man's relaxing diversion is another man's tedious grind.

    My theory is that in the past, there was more sense of achievement to resource gathering and such. You could more or less guarantee a buyer if you were going to sell, or if not it would take you a step closer to achieving the distinction of GMing your craft, and so on. In the early days, everything was special, and few activities were depreciated.
    Nowadays, it's not uncommon for a player to have more resources than they could conceivably ever use, so there's scarcely a demand to make supplying much more than an exercise in frustration. If your skills aren't GM or legendary, there's little value on your contributions; again, the game is saturated with legendary skills.

    I remember, better than I do the things my lecturers were trying to teach me in the time, mining around Minoc.
    When I had the skill to mine and smith shadow iron, I made myself some armour in it, and felt totally proud of myself.
    These days, any accomplishment in those skills barely warrant a slow clap and a pat on the head. The achievement lies in achieving my own goals in those skills, which is incredibly solo for an MMOG ;)
     
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  4. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I completely agree. When I mined, filling many orders for shadow tables and chairs, I enjoyed it, "I" turned it into Work because I was marketing these items to make gold as would happen in an actual job, and I did it. After all, decorating was all the rage. The Devs made it into a grind and this is where I think UO took a wrong turn. Should it not have given an even greater sense of accomplishment? It Didn't, the overwhelming drudgery removed all the fun, and in the end, the only feeling I got was that I was done, Relief at last from the awfulness mining had just become.
    The customer was happy, they also became my last, which brought sadness. I wouldn't grind that again for ME, much less as an item to sell to others. Achieving goals, accomplishments, had all been suddenly changed in the game. I felt violated, robbed of the chance to fulfill further goals. Self worth, cheapened.

    It's funny to see "Solo" and "achieving my own goals" in the same sentence, especially in light of the enforced group playstyle developers instituted - another crippling blow to the backbone of UO. The sharing of one's goals made community, not getting my 0.1% share of monster loot. I remember being happy selling an ostard for 100gp, rewards wasn't the loot, making others happy was. Community, sharing each other, literally, Not sharing a 50k hp mob.

    The hard part is where do we go from here? One is defining UO's problems, and working together as a group for a change. I think the community let down UO, for multiple reasons. We are the only ones here, the last man standing. Mesanna said they work for us - well you can't give conflicting orders and expect it to work out well. I don't think it'll be the Devs that kill UO.
     
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  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Before there was scripting grinds, there was scripting gaining skills, and script-healing in PvP. Oh, and resource gathering. (And UO's always needed resources.)

    Bottom line is that scripting is a way for some players to gain advantage over other players who don't script, and hence people will do it.

    -Galen's player
     
  6. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I agree with most of what has been said. Tedious grinds do promote scripting. Many folk now are greedy and fuel a large amount of bad things like scripting, duping, and hacking of accounts. With the sale of in-game items for RL money it has created a fever of folk wanting to make what ought to be "fun" work. They want to make money in RL... it fuels even more greed.

    Now years ago we used to do several events and they were just for fun... wasn't really about the prize money given out. NO one cared that their poem won 100 gp. What they cared about was coming together with the community for fun and games. Now you try to hold an event and no one will show up if the prize isn't megga millions. Hard to get folk to come to a costume contest or an archery contest if they don't either think the EM's are going to give them something or that they won't make 10million in gold.

    For many years we had Tavern nights and would tell stories no one got anything or anything but it was fun... We talked about adventure... those days are long gone most the time. Sure we still have tavern nights.... but very few attend anymore.

    Guild hunts were fun years ago because you needed a group to go into Tera Keep or into Destard because the Dragons would chew you up and spit you out dead. Now no one fears going in anywhere solo so who needs a group... and going with a group only means you don't get all the loot to yourself.... and loot is now all that matters. It's talked about in everything... Loot stinks on this fix it.... fix it.... fix it. Sadly as weapons and armor become more and more powerful and the loot becomes more and more powerful other things are less and less worthy.... and it feeds the greed. Soon the loot becomes stale ..... but more importantly and what has been lost is the spirit of the adventure... the thrill of accomplishment... So they try to beef up the monsters but making them "kitchen sink" monsters with 100000000 hp does NOT make them fun. And if they have pathetic loot no one cares.

    Sadly the game seems all about greed now... no more is it about community and fun... it's about making a buck.

    I've never really had a vendor. I don't really play the game to make a profit. I play for the RP and community and *gasps* for FUN. :( I wish we could bring that back to the game but I almost fear it's too late.
     
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  7. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Some of my favorite memories of UO come from when I was playing on Baja in the year or two after I first started playing, back in 2005-2006. The guild I was in consisted of other players who, like me, were new to UO or who had recently returned to UO. Not one of us was an old vet who had played UO from day 1. We were all pretty darn green about UO.

    One of our guild members who was a little more knowledgeable and experienced with MMOs was kind enough to sponsor Teamspeak for our guild, so we started using it when we did some group hunts. We had so much fun picking dungeons to go explore, making sure we checked out every level, every room, every nook and cranny. Most of us died, multiple times; however, it was such a blast to figure out who was still alive and could do a rez, where we would rally, who would pull off the monsters crowded around our corpses, and how we'd get all of our stuff back. Those hunts weren't about the loot and I think it was pretty rare for anyone to finish one with more gold in the bank than they had at the start. No, those guild hunts were about the camaraderie, the teamwork, the laughs, coaxing shy guild members into actually talking and being able to enjoy their jokes and silliness or even their singing, and about exploring and experiencing a place in full color that we never would have been able to see on our own, except in shades of gray.

    I've also got many similar fond memories from when I was in a faction guild on Baja and GL in 2006 and 2007, and since then in another smaller faction guild on multiple shards. This was all before the faction changes. Faction gear? Didn't exist. Kill points? Not an issue. The best killers had kill points and you knew who they were and respected them for it and for the fact that they were always willing to give tactful and helpful feedback to others so they would get better too. Factions was fun because you worked as a team to defend the base or to go get the sigils back after some other well-coordinated team took them from you. A lot of the time, the thieves worked hard to make sure the sigils were corruptible at the right time to do 10-15 hour defenses on the weekend when both our guild and the enemy could be online and try to outfox each other. There was no general chat to bring people down and fling insults at each other. No, the mock insults, the teasing, the "good fight" comments all happened on screen, looking at each others' characters/ghosts, or sometimes on the forums. We all shared a house because we weren't on our home shard, and everyone pitched in to make sure all had decent gear and sufficient supplies.

    Anyway, those are some of the things I remember as good group fun in UO. I somehow doubt we'll ever see those days again.
     
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  8. Meatbread

    Meatbread Journeyman

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    Of course grinds promote scripting. You think anyone looked at Community Collections when they came out and went "10,000 bucklers eh? I'll have to remember to loot them when I find them on monsters and turn them in one by one!"
     
  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    No I don't. I've been turning in Unicorns and Kirins to the zoo for YEARS I've yet to get a reward. I doubt I'll ever get one. My guess is that the game will end before I ever obtain the 300+k of points I need to get the statue I want.
     
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  10. Umfufu

    Umfufu Journeyman
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    I do not believe it is the grind that promotes scripting.

    It is people with bad mentalities that do, lazy people that do, greedy people do. People that for some reason refuse to play the game.
    And face it, it seems many gaming people nowadays are the "hand me on the silver platter types". They want all in a month.
    I have heard the most rediculous excuses to cheat, one of the most hilarious is "I have a life".
    I have job and kids ... etc etc.
    Imho if you so short time to play a game maybe you better not play at all ?
    How about the excuse it is too boring, too much a grind, it is a aweful thing to do ...
    Imho then maybe this is not the game for you and you should find one that meets your needs and give you more pleasure?
    I mean we all pay to play for the fun we get out of it no?
    One can blame the devs for a lot if things, but not for you picking a game that fits you. I think it is not fair to just jump into a game and then demand it be tailored to YOUR needs (which, mind you, doesn't mean those are the needs of all), or else you have an excuse to cheat.
    How stupid is that?

    Every game has some grind or another, name me a game that does not.
    Games are timesinks in one form or another, ment to keep you occupied.

    The beauty of UO is that it is a sandbox game, and there is much to do.
    Many activities for many likings.
    As one pointed out earlier it is all in the eye of the beholder, what maybe a grind for you, can be one of my favorate activities, so in that perspective it is hard to define a "grind".
    What is nice is a game like this supports many playstyles that compliment eachother.

    Like I spoke to another player the other day, as I myself love collecting powders and BoS, an sell them others that cannot be arsed to do this "grind", like him, if he wants gold he goes do a couple of champs, something I cannot be arsed to do, if he needs powders/BoS he comes to someone like me, if I want a PS I go to someone like him, making the circle complete.
    Both do stuff we enjoy ingame and in the end both end up with the stuff we need ingame.
    As he said ... one hand washes the other.

    Obviously not all see it this way, and for some reason cannot comprihend that some may like activities others loathe to do.
    They cannot see this is the very essense of a content rich MMO.

    In my eyes (set aside the greed ones), people who cheat are the ones who cannot/refuse to actually play the game as intended.
     
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  11. Gilmour

    Gilmour Certifiable
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    Grinds does indeed promote scripting, and UO development have seemed to take repeated turns towards making it harder and harder to do stuff, this in it self causes some people to take the easy way out and Break the rules.

    I will also add, That originally if you an evening mined 2k ingots you did a good job, and could be proud of yourself, these days, 2k ingots is nothing, due to the fact that of the scripting people that is supplying endless amounts keeping value low. which is a loop that never ends, but also in this example due to stuff like swampie armor taking a whole 750 ingots.

    I do not encourage people to afk anything, quite the opposite, if i catch them i will report them since i do not tolerate it. Same time i can understand what drives people to risk afk'ing.

    But as Umfufu said, there's another view to it which is ALSO correct, this not a black/white problem, its a mix of things that drive people. And the integrety of obaying the rules of the game is very different from person to person, some obay them to the letter while others will think "meh, it's unlikely i will ever be caught" and/or "many others are doing it, so i will join em" or similar things.

    There are also the ones that use it for some attended assisting things, rather than full automated. This is still not okay, but at least i mind this a whole lot less than the full automated ones.
     
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  12. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    UO is really filled to the brim with repetitive, unengaging tasks.
    When I said previously that it's in the eye of the beholder, that isn't something that should be relied upon or expected.
    A person may enjoy counting matchsticks, but even if that be the case, you can't expect everyone to enjoy counting them.

    Though it's obviously down to the players to make the decision to script, it's important to analyze their reasons for doing so.
    That's why MMOGs often have "Why are you leaving?" questionnaires, when you unsubscribe. A user doing something undesirabed is more than the sum of their actions.
     
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  13. TullyMars

    TullyMars Sage
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    Hmm I actually do this to this day. Bucklers, lesser poison, no-dachi, ninja hoods, etc...funny thing is I do it automatically and turn in a bag full of this crap per week. Another funny thing is I don't have an objective with it and couldn't tell you how many points I actually I have without logging on.
     
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  14. Raptor85

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    Theres two kinds of scripting in uo, both are obviously for the same reason (to have an advantage) but they stem from different problems.

    1. Scripting for advantage in pvp (note this does not include speedhacks and such as that is a seperate issue altogether)
    This is the kind you'll NEVER be rid of no matter the game mechanics, there will always be ways to cheat and there will always be those that cheat for an advantage. No matter what you change in game, or how much security you put in, it WILL be worked around. The only solution to this kind of cheating is an active GM staff banning all associated accounts as it's found.

    2. Scripting for resources/gold/script crafting
    This kind of scripting is a bit different in that it's the game mechanics itself that makes it more effective than a human at the helm. UO on launch most definitely did have it's share of grinds, all of which were scripted within a year, but it's only grown since. The big issue is when a few people start doing it it makes doing it by hand more and more worthless. Time is money and this applies in game as well, sure everyone can mine their own ingots....but it's worth little more than for RP purposes these days. I could mine in all my free time for a month and all the ingots i make in such time would be worth so little that i would have been better off farming mongbats (siege is a bit of an exception, we kill scripters and chase them off so ingots are a bit expensive here). Any game mechanic where the main factor of reward is time invested, and the action itself is a simple repetitive task, with promote scripting. Throw in the results being purely based on a random number generator and the poing in a actual human doing it drops to nearly nothing. Remove randomization and reward the player more for being clever than for doing the same task over and over and over....and no that doesnt mean "add more steps" into doing things...more steps can simply be scripted....add shortcuts to doing tasks that a human can more efficently do than a bot, for instance if mining spots instead of changing every time they're mined out, use the prospectors tool to learn the ore type and once "identified" it stays that for 12 hours, add more "ore" per spot each respawn, and lower the weight of the processed ingots. Now instead of the most efficenty way to get ore being recalling between spots off in odd corners of fel where nobody checks.... mindlessly mining them up. Now you hunt down spots, mark them, and mine up the ore you want, smelt them on a nearby forge (in the case of mountain passes) or fire beetle. This won't prevent script mining....don't fool yourself, any possible action CAN be scripted, but this will make it more profitable to do it by hand than via script as now you can get far more higher end ores by actually putting some thought into it, as now instead of being a pure factor of time the factor of EFFORT is a larger part.

    Poor game mechanics rely on grind, and grind promotes scripting....ALWAYS. Mass bannings while they sound appealing at first would probably tank the game, as now you have game mechanics that nobody wants to deal with that the entire ingame economy is based on. The game mechanics need to be fixed first....and maybe one year the dev team will catch onto the fact that doing the same action repeatedly with 0 variation for 6 hours to complete a single task is not "fun" in the least.
     
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  15. Raptor85

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    like most people though you're basicly using it as a trashcan to recoup some of the costs later down the road....meanwhile even the highest end rewards you can buy for about 2 mil on any shard since some people restock dozens of them for cheap daily....makes it seem a bit pointless when you look at effort/reward for doing it yourself.
     
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  16. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    RL promts scripting. Right now I am working 6 days a week, coaching baseball 3 nights a week, have meetings in the evening 1 night a week, and run my son to other things a few nights a week. When I do get to login to UO for a couple of hours the last thing I want to do is spend those hours farming ingots, leather, doing BODs, plants, or grinding out parts to suits. When I have time to play I like to PvP not resource farm. Luckly I have enough gold in UO that I can buy what ever I need so when I need resources I buy them (prolly from a scripter) so I can enjoy the game the way I want to.
     
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  17. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    This is true, and I have yet to play an MMORPG that didn't have something that felt like grinding. The early years of UO didn't feel like it as much. It's not a case of hazy memories, and even with the things that you did grind - ingots/lumber, they were still worth a lot back then, and so it felt worthwhile - you didn't have to mine/chop for long to accumulate a decent amount of gold. You had to stay alive long enough to get it somewhere you could sell it :gee: but it's not like now where it's easy and cheap to acquire a lot of ingots and lumber. I don't know how you balance it though. On the one hand you want accomplishments to mean something, but on the other hand how much of an accomplishment is it if it's just repetitive motions over and over and over?

    What was it that made being a GM in something in the first few years of UO special? Was it the fact that it was incredibly expensive, at least with crafting skills? Was it the amount of time it took? Was it the danger in acquiring the resources to GM such a skill?

    You don't want to give people items for doing nothing, but on the other hand, what if something takes 100 hours to get? Maybe it's because I have less time to game these days, but to me, if something takes 100 hours to get, it might as well take 25 or 50 hours to get, because there is no difference to me. I'm not going to put that amount of time into getting it, whether it's 25, 50, or 100. I'm going to buy it, and chances are high that the more hours it takes to acquire, the more chances are that somebody is scripting it.

    I don't want to turn this into a pre-AOS discussion, but it sure does feel that after AOS, we began to find ourselves with a lot more situations where grinding became prevalent, because of the fact that you needed certain items to do well. The game became more and more complex as a result, which caused more and more grinding in my view.

    UO has a pretty lengthy questionnaire about leaving.
     
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  18. TullyMars

    TullyMars Sage
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    True.
    And I have actually bought the items rather than turning in my points.
    I just thought it funny that I do exactly what many think is "a grind" of course since I am not focused on it and only doing it as an afterthought or spare time hobby...It isn't a grind to me.
    I approached many things like that in UO, training skills, mining ingots, mining sand, potion making. I multi task and let things grow as they go. It is not uncommon to see me grinding potions while shopping or running errands or fighting monsters in the abyss. If I didn't multi-task and mix up activities, I too would deem these things a grind.
     
  19. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    I always wonder why people who just want to 'PvP' dont play a game like Halo or some other first person shooter that doesn't require all the time/effort to build suits etc?

    Why play a game like UO? UO seems to have a horrific interface for PvP combat and be highly dependant on items so how is that fun?

    Not trying to start a flame war or a troll - but its an honest question?

    PvPers come here to complain about everything under the sun and half the time I wonder why they play this game? If you don't want to spend the time to acquire the items - then why not play a game without that requirement? I never understand that.
     
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  20. kRUXCg7

    kRUXCg7 Sage

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    I don't say you are wrong about PvP-people. But I assure you, we, the current non-PvP-people will complain at least as much as the PvP-people do. It's the complaining that helps us all develop new ideas and work together for a better world!
     
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  21. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Not complaining just stating a fact. For me when I log into UO I want to PvP the majority of the time not craft, PvM, deco, RP, or any other aspect that makes UO attract so many different players.

    The reason I don't play Halo, or other games like that is because I started out in UO before PvP was so item/suit based and I don't like learning new things LOL. Also because when I have tried other games, such as DAOC, Warhammer, Call of Duty, and others I have yet to find the unique PvP that UO offers.


    If you want to see me complaining just look at some of my posts about mysticism.
     
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  22. Balinor of Pk?

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    I find it funny when people who think they know Ultima and how it works comment on things they really know nothing about. Most every good feature over the entire life of UO, was conceived by scripting and/or "hack" programs. Either to reduce it's effects, or to try to eliminate it all together, or plain just because it was a good feature. Fire beetles? Lockdowns? Spawning changes? House security? Shall I go on? Last target? Target highlighting? haha I could go on and on. Most of these were either done by scripting first, or a direct result of. Fast selling? Crafting multiple items? All features of scripting and/or "hack" programs long before being a part of UO. Honestly, scripting is the LEAST of the concerns. It's a playstyle. Just like yours. I like how someone in a post up above was basically calling scripters lazy, evil, good for nothing, name after name... Seriously? You can't possibly believe that they're not the same as you, just a little more intelligent? ;) It's a game folks. Calm down. EVERY time something happens in UO it's always a new crusade to fix what each person believes is wrong. Scripting didn't ruin UO. Years and years of free MMO after free MMO has done more to kill UO than scripting I promise.
     
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  23. LordDrago

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    Been there...Actually, I am stll there and don't see myself leaving anytime soon.