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Has anyone been using Remove trap prior to 2008 ?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, May 22, 2014.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I am asking, because while searching the internet for past informations about this neglected skill in Ultima Online (most use the telekinesis spell from magery and save up the 100.0 skill points from the template....), I found at least a post (not on Stratics) dated 2008 where it is mentioned that using this skill to attempt to Remove a Trap while hidden would NOT unhide the user. This, contrary to the use of the telekinesis spell which, while saving up 100.0 skill points from the template, unhides of course the caster.

    And that seemed to me logical to make at least some sense for players (though not enough, IMHO, there should be additional bonuses to make it sensefull to invest so many skill points into the Remove Trap skill, besides its possible use for those in factions.....) to want to use this skill rather then the telekinesis spell.

    Yet, in today's UO I have found out that using this skill, at least at levels lower than GM, unhides the user. I am not sure, as I did not try it as of yet on Test server, whether using it at 100.0 makes a difference as not to unhide when using it.

    Just as a reference, in today's UO Detecting Hidden and Picking a Lock do NOT unhide the user (and rightfully so!!). Of course, Monsters with a varying capacity can still reveal a hidden player depending on the hiding skill, of course.

    So, it looks to me, sometimes between 2008 and today happened to make using this skill unhide the user. Was it voluntarily changed into a Publish ? Is this a "side bug" occurred after changing something else ?

    Anyways, I thought to ask whether anyone might have been using it in the past and remembers not unhiding when using it.

    Thanks.
     
  2. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Remove Trap is basically only used by Factions. T-Hunter templates are so cramped nowadays, that they wouldn't even have enough room for Remove Trap.
     
  3. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I understand, that is why I hope that "incentives" might be introduced as changes to the Remove Trap skill so as to motivate players to use this skill besides in Factions (soon to be Vices vs. Virtues).......

    And that is why I was trying to look up at old references about this skill, to check whether in the past this skill was more player friendly to be used..... for example, not un-hiding the user while attempting to Remove a Trap.

    As I said, I found an old post dating back 2008 (not on Stratics) which clearly makes reference of being able to use the Remove Trap skill without un-hiding and was trying to see whether anyone who has used this skill prior to that year also remembers the same (being able to use it without un-hiding...).
    If so, then something must have changed at some point in between 2008 and today and would like to understand whether this was a voluntary change to the way this skill works (but in such a case why was such a change done ? The skill already is tough to raise and is quite an investment in skill points on a template, and making it even harder to be used definately does not help players in being willing to use it, besides factions....) or whether the un-hiding was merely an involuntary side effect (bug ?) of some Publish at some point....
     
  4. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    remove trap has always unhidden the player.
    even in factions.

    and remove trap is used on siege because tele does not work on siege to remove the traps from chests, or at least didnt the last time i did it which admittedly has been a while.
     
  5. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    You're right in that tele doesn't work - but most treasure hunters on Siege make do with a 70 fire resist suit and take the hit rather than use 100 points on the skill.
     
  6. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I did find references, searching about the skill, mentioning that using remove trap at some point did not un-hide the user.... besides, it does make sense to me that using remove trap would not un-hide the user otherwise why would one want to invest 100.0 skill points in a skill that offers nothing else which the telekinesis spell can do ?

    Even on Siege, as Petra points out, most players prefer to take the hit from opening up the trapped chest rather then spending skill points in Remove Trap on the template.....

    As it currently stands, without any real incentives to having this skill, having Remove Trap skill points is just a waste for a template.
     
    #6 popps, May 22, 2014
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  7. S_S

    S_S Certifiable
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    Just n/m, I'd be wasting my time.
     
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  8. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    ive had 100 remove trap on too many guys to count for too many years to count and remove trap has since ive been using it revealed you.
    the last 7-8 years at least.
     
    #8 Poo, May 22, 2014
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  9. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I tried google, to see if I could establish the source of your information. The only reference I found to remove trap not revealing you stemmed from a free shard forum. Free shards adapt the game to their own requirements. Skills do not always work the same way as they do on official shards.
    If I am mistaken in this please send me in PM the link to your source.
     
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  10. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Hmmm, it seems there is further problems with this skill, apparently, even at full investment of skill points, GM 100.0, one still does fail a whole lot of times on harder chests (for example paragon ones...) and failure on these chests, often means sure death......

    One more reason not to want to invest so many skill points into the use of a skill which offers so little help (but it would be better to say zero help...) in one's own game play ?

    At the very least, at higher skill levels of Remove Trap a player should at least be able to "tone down" the damage received upon failure to remove a trap on higher difficulty chests (so as not to die) with a message saying something like "You failed to remove the trap but your high skill managed to reduce its devastating effects..." sort of.....
     
  11. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    keep in mind that some high level chests have multiple traps on them.
     
  12. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Indeed, but the issue here is not opening a still trapped chest, but failing, even at 100.0 Remove Trap skill on higher difficulty chests, and thus triggering the trap off which, at that level, often means sure death....

    I would guess that if most players just do not bother and use the telekinesis spell, "perhaps", just "perhaps", there is "maybe" something just not right with the way the Remove Trap skill is designed to work ?

    If we want players to "want to" pick up this skill and the 100.0 skill points that come with it to GM it, "perhaps" it is necessary to offer to players bonuses from its use ? As of now, honestly, I see no advantage whatsoever from using the Remove Trap skill.....

    I mean, it does not allow to stay hidden while using it, even at GM skill level one fails way too much on high level chests (with this often resulting in sure death...) and there is not even any loot bonus from manually removing a trap from a chest (and thus investing many valuable skill points on the template) rather then using the telekines spell so, why would one want to ever use it ?

    And infact, most players just do not bother with it.
     
  13. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Your observations are well known. However, most don't bother with it not because of the reason you listed, but because it is a waste of room to devote 100 skill points just for the purpose of removing a trap. As it is there are many other options to deal with traps such as withstanding the trap or simply avoid it completely. Even if a GM trap remover would never fail at removing a trap it would still be seen as a waste of 100 skill points for most templates.
     
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  14. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I feel that having a less than optimal skill like remove trap on your template should add a synergy bonus to other skills.
     
  15. popps

    popps Always Present
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    There are many ways to make a skill be worth the investment in skill points..... for Remove Trap, for example, it could be made it so that, when using it rather than blasting the traps withstanding them, or using the telekinesis skill, additional uncommon items/resources can be recovered from the chests.... such an additional items' bonus, perhaps coupled with a change to this skill so that using it (at least at high levels) would not un-hide the user, could perhaps possibly be finally good reasons to make some players be willing to invest in the skill points......

    Clearly though, besides any bonuses that might be offered as an incentive to its use, at least at high levels, the skill must be made more functional and at least tone down the damage taken even from high level chests on fails.... I find it somewhat a game breaker that even at GM level one still fails so often from high level chests and has to take the full damage from the fail, as if one did not have the skill althougether, without even be able to take "some" advantage from having invested so many points in the skill.....

    That's as I see it, at least.
     
  16. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    or
    just make it like siege where tele dosnt untrap chests and actually make people have to pick up the skill or take the damage.
    what am i saying, im using logic, force people to use a skill for what its made for.... that just makes.... sense, bah humbug!
     
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  17. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Why punish players in a negative manner ??

    Wouldn't it be better, instead, to actually issue bonuses, extra gadgets for using the Remove Trap skill instead ?

    Make players "want" to use a skill, not "have to"....

    This is an entertainment product, after all...........
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    It's not a punishment, it's making the skill useful. If players were unable to use telekinesis then they would have to either withstand the trap or remove it via the skill. Do you consider it a punishment that players who PvM or PvP have to use a healing skill (magery or healing)?

    I think it's a good idea. Boost the skills performance and remove the telekinesis crutch on all shards. Of course, I doubt that more people would use it even if those changes were made :p
     
    #18 Viper09, May 23, 2014
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
  19. Pawain

    Pawain Crazed Zealot
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    Next time popps, do some research before you invest hours in a skill that is useless. Use test center to see if that skill is really worth the time for you.

    You wasted a whole bunch of time building up a useless skill, get over it and stop whining. There are more useless skills you can move on to. Herding, camping are a couple you can try next.
     
  20. popps

    popps Always Present
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    That's not the point. If something, whatever, in the game is neglected by players, that is a waste of the resources that were put into making that part of the game be possible. So, why not instead identify what is neglected and by improving it make it again wanted by players ?

    Take the legacy dungeons, for example, before the revamp how many where going to Shame, Wrong, Covetous?
    Then they were improved and so players started going to them again.

    Ultima Online is not a static game, it is in continuous evolution, identifying neglected areas of it and bettering them should be a never ending task until the game ceases to exist (hopefully not in a loooong time !).

    That's at least as I see it.
     
  21. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    UO's reality is defined the same way as the real world's: finite resources. The UO gods (Devs) have finite time to "improve" this and that, therefore they must prioritize.

    They're working on a new PvP system. They just released a minor publish, including quite a fast response to an abuse of game mechanics. Considering how many other players have agreed with you about Remote Trap, the Devs likely will not spend time anytime soon to "fix" things as you think they should.
     
  22. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, who knows...... the placing of traps (and their removal) was quite meaningfull in Factions and, I hope, Remove Trap will also have an important role in Virtues vs Vices so, perhaps, while working on the new factions and all stuff related, also some love might come for the Remove Trap skill ?
     
  23. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    "was meaningful"

    Do you not think your own words illustrate how widely used the skill is now?
     
  24. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Really ?

    Do I need to understand from your words that you imply that 100% of the UO population was involved into Factions ?

    Because, at least to my thinking, saying that something was meaningfull in Factions, but the players in Factions where, say, 10% of the UO population, not necessarily means that that something which was only meaningfull in Factions was therefore meaningfull for the whole game...........

    My understanding, is that Remove Trap was and is a useless skill for the vast majority of the Ultima Online population because it has little to nothing to offer to them BUT, at the same time, it was quite meaningfull for that minority involved in Factions. But that does not necessarily equal to saying that because of that Remove Trap was meaningfull to all of the players of UO.....

    Still, while working on Virtues vs Vices I hope that some attention (well, I hope definately more than just "some" attention...) can be given to the so called "Rogue" skills, the whole package, Stealing, Hiding, Stealthing, Detect Hidden and also Remove Trap and thus make changes to Remove Trap that can make it appealing not only to those in Virtues vs Vices but also to all of the rest of Ultima Online players who will not want to get involved into PvP........
     
  25. Pawain

    Pawain Crazed Zealot
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    You did factions for what, a month or less and now you want to determine what the new virtue vs vice is going to have in it. From what I have read here, you only did factions because you thought it would speed up your detect hidden skill. Then you saw some shiny silver pieces and you wanted some. I hope the devs take your advice for what it is worth.
     
  26. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    You don't "understand" my words at all. Your own words illustrate how popular faction PvP is now, which is to say, little enough that the Devs are not going to bother with you and your complaints about a skill that not even all faction fighters use. They have far better things to do, do you get it?

    Good lord.
     
  27. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I can understand that not everyone might appreciate seeing Rogue templates have a meaningfull role in Virtues vs. Vices, hopefully even stronger to what it was in factions, but that does not mean that there could be players, even players who were not in Factions, who might be willing to join Vices vs Virtues should it be appealing to templates they can enjoy to play....

    And where's a better place for a Rogue character then in PvP ?

    Besides, I will never understand the logic under which only those who were part of something should ever be entitled to talk about it.... If any area of the game needs to be enlarged, more participated, I think that actually those players who were not interested in that area of the game as it was should be heard the most "IF" a higher participation is wanted....

    For example, PvP. I often hear complaints that there are too few PvPers in UO and yet, rather then hearing the opinions of those who do not want to get involved into PvP "as it is" but might want to get involved in it if it changes, whenever non PvPers try to speak up about what is not appealing about the current PvP in UO, their voice is left unheard because they do not know about it....

    Do we want niche areas in UO shared by just few players or do we want to see lots of participants ?

    In the latter case, I think that all voices should be heard, not just those of the "experts"...
     
  28. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Sure, but those who have actually engaged in the system should have more weight in their statements about what works/doesn't work than some armchair factioner.
     
    #28 Viper09, May 24, 2014
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
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  29. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I do not see the connection..... if Factions are not popular, then they are not participated.
    If they are not participated, then they are not important to the game....... but then, if player vs player interaction is not an important area of the game, then why spend relevant resources to work on the Virtues vs. Vices ?

    My understanding is, instead, that the problem is not PvP in itself, but how it has so far been managed in UO (Factions) that made it not popular and thus not relevant in terms of participation.....

    Perhaps, I think, it would not be such a bad idea to hear as many players' voices as possible if the goal is to enlarge players' participation in Virtues vs Vices and not end it up as Factions did ?
     
  30. popps

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    Perhaps, if one wants it to be a niche UO side game with just few participants.... otherwise, I think the voices of those who have been so far deterred from joining such PvP areas of the game should also be heard to see if their needs/complaints might be accomodated towards the goal of enlarging players' participation in the new PvP system. If only hard core PvPers' voices will be heard, Virtues vs. Vices will remain a niche side area in UO with few participants, IMHO,...... is it worth it to spend so many resources just for the fun of a few players ?

    I do not see nothing odd when, in the real world, businesses who want to expand their markets make surveys to customers who never purchased their products to try understand what makes them not willing to buy their goods or services.... and then, if they can accomodate the suggested changes to expand their markets without hurting their existing customers, they go for it and so, they actually make their goods/services more succesfull and expand their markets....

    That's how I see it, for PvP in UO is would be much better instead, to listen up to all, and spend those resources into a system that can really embrace as many players of UO as possible, rather then just to create it for a few......
     
    #30 popps, May 24, 2014
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  31. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Your "understanding" is flawed. Even before the new PvP system was announced, how many people were actively doing factions? Out of those, how many did Remove Trap? There were so few that the Devs are not going to spend manpower on it, especially when only one person on UHall is calling for "improvement."

    Do you finally get it?
     
  32. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Again, popps, you misunderstand. I am not saying only those who engage in the system should be heard from, but that those who have should have more weight in their statements mainly due to their actual experience and honest interest in it.
     
  33. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I see.... so that's where we are heading to ? A Virtues vs Vices where there will be no Traps and Removing of them enhanced or not enhanced, because hardly anyone cares about playing a Rogue character in UO ?

    Oh well........, personally I think the game (and Virtues vs. Vices) will not be as fun without them, but if noone wants them, then so be it........
     
  34. The Zog historian

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    We haven't seen anything to indicate faction traps or the like. Until we know for sure, that's a lot of effort to work up the skill.
     
  35. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    My t hunter has had gm DH on Seige, nephew gmed it with my help.
    Gosh in the first year of Siege coming on line.
    I have never changed his template so I still use it on chests all over Siege.
     
  36. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I worked it when it first came out and some other times just for kicks, and it has always been a stupid skill.

    It always unhid you. It's skill that's been in need of an update since day one basically. A small amount of players have been trying to bring up the fact for years and years, especially the fact that it reveals you, and the fact that despite its limited usefulness it also requires you have 100 points in other skills to even use which is the highest requirement of any skill. Let alone just allowing telekinesis to work permanently which all but negates the skill outside of factions, which will no longer even exist in short order.

    Not a very well designed skill there.
     
  37. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, thank you Uvtha !

    It is refreshing to see that I am not alone in my thinking, especially considered that you have been such a long time user of this skill. I particularly like the wording "It's skill that's been in need of an update since day one basically"............

    Thanks again !
     
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