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Haven Mine needs changed. Seriously.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by KLOMP, Dec 9, 2012.

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  1. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Golem training is getting nerfed. Trammel Despise, previously the premier training ground for newbies or anyone else who wasn't beating a golem, has been effectively removed and replaced with some minigame. In exchange we have been given Haven Mine which, as it stands, is not an acceptable training ground.

    The multiple earth elementals will beat a newbie to death with ease, and the lizardmen are totally meaningless since they're mixed in with the much more powerful ogre lords. The ogre lords themselves would make even a veteran melee fighter work hard since there are four of them in close proximity.

    Here is how the Haven Mine dungeon should be spawned in order to provide a useful training ground:

    Most of level one should feature lizardmen. Relatively sparse numbers but a relatively fast respawn rate.

    The rearmost hallway of level one, the hallway where the hole is, should contain ettins. Again, low numbers but high respawn.

    Level two should contain perhaps a couple of cyclopses, or alternatively a single ogre lord.

    The pooch was screwed when old Despise was wrecked, it had everything a character in training needed. We kinda let it slide because so many people would just beat golems instead, but, welp...
     
  2. Ricsreturn

    Ricsreturn Adventurer

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    I have to disagree.

    I think it's a nice how it is not very hard at all. I remember trying to train in depise back with only one or 2 orge lords available to attack and it was a waiting game because there was always a tamer training a pet or a bard training his skills.

    I don't think a player should make this their first fight once making a new char, they should complete the quest training skills to 50, and continue training with the undead spawn within the town by time all skills are near 60-70 then they should adventure into the dungeon.
     
  3. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    The 2nd floor is just wide open. There should at least be long passages where new players couldn't draw the attention of all of the ogre lords. Adding a few more wouldn't hurt either if it's spaced out.

    But anyway, if the haven one doesn't do it for you then Fel despise is still the same. You will probably never see anyone unless you get too close to the spawn.
     
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  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I pointed something like this out at the time if memory serves. If I didn't sorry, I thought I had.

    Lizardmen should be on the first level; they are an excellent training monster after the New Haven quests. Earth Elementals are too hard. To test this I made a noob Samurai, finished the New Haven quests, wandered into New Haven, and got creamed. (In a bad way.)

    Should be Lizardmen and Ogres on Level One (maybe Earth Elementals near the back) then Ogre Lords by themselves (2 at most) on level 2, as a kind of mini-boss monster that lets you know you're ready to venture to Ilshenar and make your fortune on Champ Spawns.

    -Galen's player
     
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  5. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    These are good suggestions for the Haven Mine. It's original intent was a place to put some of the displaced creatures from other parts of the world. In the future, as time permits, I'd like to add additional features to the Mine to make it more conducive to training up new characters while making it somewhere the season vet may want to take a stroll as well.
     
    #5 Kyronix, Dec 9, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
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  6. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    I agree that it needs change.
    The earth elemental spawn at the first level can be tricky for low skill characters, and the lizardmen aren't doing any good near the ogre lords.

    Personally, I'd think the enemy distribution should be something like this: A level with Ettins and lizardmen, one with earth elementals and ogres and finally one with ogre lords, titans and cyclopean warriors.
    This way it would be more suitable to train warriors and mages. Low skill toons can handle ettins and lizardmen together at the same place.
     
  7. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    Wow, sounds exactly like the old Despise. An EXCELLENT suggestion.
     
  8. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    If dungeon revamps continue wouldn't it make sense to make one giant multi level dungeon (tram and fel btw) with all displaced "legacy" creatures?

    While im on dungeon revamps, would it be possible to make it where the higher end mobs don't spawn together? Shame level 5 there's a solid 6-8 blood elementals that hang out in gang fashion. It's actually easier to do a fel spawn than it is to dungeon crawl through shame.
     
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  9. Slayvite

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    You do realise this thread has allready been done like the day New Haven mine was released with all things said here allready being said? You been asleep for a month or two?
     
  10. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Thank you for the response. It's always nice to know feedback has been read. Consider adding more varied low-level spawn to the surface of Haven island as well.
     
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  11. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    As I posted in another thread
    My opinion hasn't changed. They should have made a multilevel dungeon (3-5 levels) where a person could train from 50-100. The revamped dungeons are really only suitable for gm skill and above. There is also no way any newbie will be doing much mining in amongst that rapid earth ele swarm, so to call it a mine is a bit of a misnomer as well.
     
    #11 MissEcho, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
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  12. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I guess if a noob doesn't know about the Sleeping Dragon Champ Spawn in Tokuno then that's the best they'll get.
     
  13. Slayvite

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    Lol, erm i been playing for.....well for ever and i have no idea what spawn your on about. :dunce:
     
  14. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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  15. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Humility gate and hug the mountain South till the gap to the Lizardman Village. There is so much land for a new player to wander in. For a new player just to learn where and what is in the corner of every land is enough. NW corners of Moonglow graveyard allows you to poke your sword through the fence till mid 70s skill. Can run if the casters get fiesty and not worry about being mobbed. A smart new player that is given good advise doesn't fight earth eli or ogre lords for years now. From lizardmen move to Compassion gate for the ratmen. More spine leather and butt load of arrows that training an archer will need. Just sticking one bone night in the Haven graveyard would be a step up training and new thrill. Also the much needed lesson on how to drag off something to big so can just deal with the desired spawn.

    As a 14 year vet. There are still places I've yet to even step into. And New Despise can be added to the list of places I have no plan to vist. I'd rather go to the Marble Champ to see how long a gank squad shows up.

    Always amused by experienced players trying something out from the point of view of a new player. The game is completely different without all that comfort bling. I start feeling spoiled I just get on on those holiday gift gathers on a shard where I know nobody or have anything. Only takes about a week at this form of Newb Camp before ready to go home. Why I started that thread about a New Land. There needs to be a more common ground between new and expierenced players. Even with SPs rules set there is still the have and have nots gap. A New Land area on every shard that only deco rares are brought back without needing to shard hope and catch an EM drop. An area where a rare few have a roof over their head, if at all allowed in standard home owner form, and some will suffer flashbacks of the days they lived off a boat.
     
    #15 Warpig Inc, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  16. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    LOl...erm...no one knows less than the Slayvite that "Knows It All"...

    LOL...erm...it's in Tokuno Islands...Lizardmen start it...LOL...erm...might want want to get out more and do less obnoxious postings, possibly.

    :rolleyes:
     
  17. Slayvite

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    Never done Champ spawns or PvP in 14 years.
    Was an active RP'er back in the day, now i just spend time gathering stuff and letting houses fall :p
     
  18. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    I'm thinking mine cart ride through a hidden temple within the mine that leads to a room where spikes come out of the floor until you beat back all these insectoid creatures to find the switch to turn them off until you finally face off against the heart stealing crazed temple boss!! :D
     
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  19. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Don't forget can earn the tram grade SoT pinks there. Don't forget the spine leather new players. Only gank chance is from the south ninja troop. Stay north the champ shrine and area around it.
     
    #19 Warpig Inc, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  20. Slayvite

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    If that could be done in the style of the 'imanewbie' comics then that would be sooo good :banana:
     
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  21. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    And don't forget your amazing skills at really obnoxious posts! Good thing you DIDN'T do any Champ Spawns. It may have bitten in to the time you had to learn your posting craft! Obviously, that was NOT the case. :p
     
  22. Minerva Foxglove

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    The mine is already too difficult for new players . It is in newbe land. Why a home for spieces in danger of extinction? Why such big plans? The place is small but it should suffice as it is, if just the spawn was the right monsters and much less of them. In the future , as time permits . .Better now and simple ! Or make an old Despice copy right inside the door.
     
  23. Tanieran

    Tanieran Adventurer

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    Indiana Jones, I presume? :) If you could code that, it would be a lot of fun.
     
  24. Gospel

    Gospel Seasoned Veteran
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    I really don't understand all the whining about lizardmen. All my characters when I was new were trained in Shame. Earth elementals and scorpions. I never had a hard time. In fact, the place was always full of newbies. I tried Despise back then and it was too easy even for a character with skills in the 50s and 60s, had crap loot, and boring.

    What all you so-called vets seem to miss is that today's new player is not the new player of "the good old days." Internet knowledge resources are plentiful, there are in-game tutorials, help chat, etc. None of this was really available then. Stop pretending that newbies are helpless children who need their hands held. Earth elementals are not the monsterous death machines you're trying to make them out to be. God you people will complain about anything.
     
    #24 Gospel, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  25. Slayvite

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    Go put a 70's resist ONLY suit on with a weapon of your choice and goto New Haven Mine and see the 'new' earth elems and see how long you last without your 'super uber i cannot die suit'. Then think about somebody new to the game without limitless funds would cope.

    The point were trying to make is that for training purposes on the 'newbie' area this new dungeon don't work. By the time they get kitted up and skilled up to take on a few elems in there, they would have left New Haven anyway.
     
  26. Sauteed Onion

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    Honestly, I have not liked New Haven at all. I liked Haven before it blew up, especially going down the road and through the little mountainy pass and into that little warzone area where you saw guards shotting orcs and zombies with cannons. Was always a nice little chuckle to be had. New Haven just smacks of yuck. I mean you got a Necromancers Temple thing, like a football field away from a Samurai Dojo; and all that mess like right outside the actual city. The buildings don't match any specific design. Rather you got big nasty wooden row of "rooms" just above the bank, a big barrack looking type place to bottom rightish of the bank where the warriors train (probably one of the cooler looking things there), big dark wooden yucky buildings just beside the bank.. I take it back, the place matches.. it's just yucky. Bring back Haven and send this "New" haven back to the future from whence it came. Also, Minax should make a cooking show; and teach us all how to make cinnamon rolls.
     
  27. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Instead of worrying about displaced creatures - how about making this game easier for the new player to navigate?

    Here is what the dev team should do this week. Everyone go to a new shard for one day and work on training up a character. You must not have anything else on that shard and you should pick shards that are less populated (Lake Austin, Lake Sup, Napa, Legends). Each dev member take a diff character - sampire, mage, mysic thrower, imbuer, etc. After struggling for 8 hours - I would surmise that you would have all kinds of ideas for making the new player experience better.

    For one I favor NO VENDOR FEES for all items priced under 5k. Thats all new player junk. No one runs new player vendors anymore because you can't make a profit by paying 60gp + .6% in fees everyday so when you go to new shards you can't find anything on vendors to get you started. Make it ok for someone to stock a new player vendor with 5k items for no cost. Thus each shard will have some new player vendors and encourage play.

    I've gone to new shards and tried to get started and have a hard time finding basic supplies. RUne books, spellbooks, cheap lrc armor etc all hard to find. New player vendors are few and far between and most vendors are arties, crafting supplies, scrolls and pinks/blues. Its a game that is so skewed for vets its not even funny.

    This game will die unless you get new players. This should be your 100% focus. New players and expanding playerbase will keep the vets around. Stop spending 100% of your effort catering to vets and attract new players.
     
  28. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I don't know how many of you are into Ultima Forever, but it's basically a throw back shard with official backing (free to play). It's going to be interesting how that plays out, and if it hurts UO's player economy.

    It's kind of hard to say what UO provides now that other games don't. I think there are definitely some sandbox things still left, and housing/mounts are cool, but I think most modern games cover both areas well enough in 3D.
     
  29. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    http://uo.ultimacodex.com/massively-tv-ultima-online-sep-24-2012/

    This is a transcript of the massively show that the team rolled out not that long ago. Scroll down to the 34th minute and tell me that everyone who plays the game doesn't know the answer....unreal.
     
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  30. Gospel

    Gospel Seasoned Veteran
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    Excellent job of misunderstanding (or not reading) my post. I guess in this, you actually raised a good argument against my post, that despite how simple the some things are to understand, some people are just too dense to wrap their heads around them.

    And Theo, maybe it's time to get off the whole "I know what's best for the dev team" thing you've been preaching. I'll gladly take Mesanna in charge than you any day of the week, especially with the nonsense you've been posting lately. You can play smart guy all day on the forums, but you're not a dev, will never be one, and your snarky little comments about how poorly they are running a game that you PAY TO PLAY just make you look like an obnoxious teenager telling his parents how things should be.
     
    #30 Gospel, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  31. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Having spent the past couple of weeks assisting a couple of 'returning' players who restarted with new characters, they had nothing but trouble after training their chars up in New Haven to between 50-60 skill level on all skills in their template and then going to the mines. Neither of them, with the gear they had, were able to kill the spawn of ele's without a lot of difficulty and death. The eles tend to spawn really quickly and it isn't long before they had three or four on them at once. As for the center with the ogrelords they had no chance of fighting there. The ele spawn here is a LOT different to what use to be in shame. These were not inexperienced gamers, and for that matter not 'total' newbs, being they had played years ago. I take their experience as a more valid indication of this mine and it's level of difficulty , than any 'vet's memory'.
     
  32. DerekL

    DerekL Certifiable
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    Internet knowledge resources, ingame tutorials, help channels, etc... Are irrelevant to the issue - New Haven Mine is too difficult for starting characters. Period. Those things won't help you when you've stepped right inside the door and have four earthies pounding on you - and when you run down the hall you run smack into four more. I'm a returning vet on a new account (waiting for them locate my old ones), and *know* what I'm doing, and got my butt handed to me there multiple times in a row before heading elsewhere. (Only there's nowhere else to go nowadays.) The dungeon is too small, the spawn too large, and unlike the Brit graveyard, Shame, and Despise of old - you're pretty much always in there solo with no one else to help you.

    On the whole, as compared to a decade ago, the new player experience for UO sucks... New Haven is a confusing mess. The Brit Graveyard now must be soloed. You can't scrounge at the WBB, The old training grounds of Despise are gone...
     
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  33. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Agreed. Nevermind the fact you need a degree in mathmatics in order to figgure out your armor suit and the 2d client gives you little help to adding up all the mods that matter and good luck finding any official documentation on the caps. The learning curve is steep regardless of how much there is to read on-line. Who wants to spend 5-8 hours reading through Stractics and UO Guild info in order to figgure out how the game works, what skills are for etc.
     
  34. Gospel

    Gospel Seasoned Veteran
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    The caps on stats are listed in quite a few obvious places. I've no doubt you know this and are just being contrary. Then again if you need a degree in math to count to 70, maybe you really don't know as much about the subjects you seem to think you're an expert on.

    As for the genius that thinks someone can't kill an earth elemental worth 60s skills and an all 70s suit, I would be happy to demonstrate it with any template, but that's not the perspective of a new player, so what's your point? Any of the combat templates on the character creator can do it, it just takes a little practice, which is coincidentally WHAT THE DUNGEON IS FOR.
     
  35. DerekL

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    So, step in the door, die. Step in the door, run half a screen, die. Lather, rinse, repeat... Umm, exactly what skills are they getting practice in?

    The point, which several of us have made to date, is that you *can't* practice in New Haven mines - because you can't survive long enough.
     
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  36. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    But the point they're make is that any noob is NOT in an all 70's suit, contrary to what you may think. Furthermore, you are not thinking it through like a newb....you're an experienced player....and therefore have a better idea of "how" to play a template. I ran into two true noobs in the last 3 days. It was amazing really, but I digress. Needless to say they were wearing armor scrounged off Vlad and skeles in New Haven. If they set foot in New Haven mine they would have been OOOoooOoOoOoo'd in seconds flat. Yeah, I can go in there in a 70's suit on any character type you choose and not only survive, but thrive. However a NEW player will not. No amount of "research" on the internet will prepare them for it, they will not know how to maximize their offense/defense and they will get wtfpwnd. The mine is poorly layed out, poorly designed, and looks as if it was a 30 second afterthought to the demise of Despise for training.
     
    #36 Aibal, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
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  37. Gospel

    Gospel Seasoned Veteran
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    Ok, I think you need to reread my post. I clearly stated that newbies don't have 70s suits. Aside from that, I can agree that the dungeon is a terrible layout, like really really bad. The mud pie mobs probably would've been a better choice for entry level mobs. Honestly I'm just sick and tired of people's crappy know-it-all entitled attitudes and people posting like they're the only ones who know what's right for the game. People often mistake having the right to their opinion for their opinion always being right.
     
  38. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Kyronix:

    I have a suggestion that might placate some of these people - and make a bunch more of us happy.

    1. Find a copy of the old Haven landscape, pre-explosion.

    2. Look at the landmarks that existed south of where the New Haven moongate is now (the Cemetary, stone circle, and Ankh) and recreate them exactly on New Haven at or near where they were before. There's no reason they should have ever been removed in the first place. While you're at it, raise that one memento of a former dev from its position buried beneath the ground (not sure if that's shard wide or Lake Austin specific).

    3. Make the Ankh and Stone Circle part of a quest system to enter a more expansive dungeon than the New Haven Mines, with the Ogre Lords moved from the mines to there, and introducing elements of the old Haven quests there - maybe even moving the Dark Knight of Old Haven (aka Uzzeraan) there as the mini-boss, since all those runes to "the darkness" keep breaking in the EC, and don't work at all in the CC. Make his drops more than once per character, but not guaranteed, since all but the skill one are limited use, and the skill one just does what the Crystal Ball of Knowledge does.
     
  39. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Man that got some likes.

    Anyway I am on Atlantic and see either true newbies or returning vets on new accounts all the time. They would die instantly in Haven Mine.
     
  40. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Classic. Seriously. Classic. 705 skill cap to start and 5 more each year up to 720 on year 4. Another one of those 'vet bonuses' that just makes it harder for new players to compete and sad our dev team doesn't know this rule. Amazing, really.
     
  41. Lord Crowen

    Lord Crowen Adventurer
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    Have you actually tried that new haven mine? I doubt that. That place is NOT for new players, definitely! I'm not sure was the designer in charge was thinking, but if the goal was to make a replacement for old despise, he/she failed miserably.
     
  42. Vessel the Humakti

    Vessel the Humakti Adventurer

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    Don't worry.
    I've tested "New Charactor Making" in Yamato Shard. It works pritty fine. Already I report it for Japanese users in my tweet and Japanese Local UO SNS.
    From roll-out to SwordsmanShip-GM, it takes just only 20-25hrs around.

    No need item transfer, get som AF, Just only root items enough.

    After 20hrs traning, I killed an ogre lord.
     
  43. Minerva Foxglove

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    And you are a completely new player ?
     
  44. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Well given he says from 20-25hrs = time to gm, seems like he had to gm the skill to take on the ogre lord (as it says after 20 hours training), not what the average new player is looking for, somewhere to go after new haven with skills at the 50-60 mark. Where did the 20 hours training take place is my question?

    Looking at the video, it was hardly an easy fight even after 20 hours training, I found the health bar very difficult to monitor on that video but from the look of it there were a few times when 2-3 more points of damage would have resulted in a grey robe.

    Certainly not a new player either by the look of things.
     
  45. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    What's the expected amount of time a "new" player would log into UO and play each day? I'm an established player who occasionally makes new characters on shards where I have nothing. Investing 20-25 hours in training skills to get to the point where you can (perhaps) enjoy pvm and (perhaps) find people who would let you party with them is not really worthwhile unless you're able to put in, say, 8 hours a day. Is Mythic pleased with the retention rate of new accounts?
     
  46. Tyrath

    Tyrath Babbling Loonie
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    Just came back after couple of years away and found this mine by accident Earthies cool seem to hit harder than they used to but still doable with a noob toon, ooo look lizerd men to pound on, hmmm how do I get to them. Ahh click rope, cool a few ogres oh sheet those are ogre lords and I am a puddle of dead goo going OOOOoooooOOOOOooooo. Get rezzed and head to despise the new mine ain't my cup of tea so I think I will go kill lizerds in despise so I go in and forget lizerds are up and go down and promptly get pasted again by something that looks like and unhappy EV. get rezzed again make a daring dash to get my noob gear and get out only to have the angry EV thing appear in the entrance on top of me OOOOoooooOOOOooo go get rezzed again, EV thing is gone so I go up and what do I find but a bunch of fairy junk cluttering up the best noob training grounds in the game. A little changing of the NH mone like putting the lizard men where the elems are making a 3rd hole and dropping the OL in it for better equiped and skilled toons and putting the eles where the lizardmen are. Better yet return haven to what it was this new haven is a jumbled up clutter of a cluster frack. Old haven was well laid out much easier for the nooblets and had decent training opportunities in the old valley and the big island over the bridge. Now everything is just crammed together and it shows.
     
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  47. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I just semi-trained chars on most US shards to make it easier to collect the election results. Here's how I did it.
    1. start a char with magery/eval/med
    2. collect a little gold by doing haven escorts and selling books to the provisioner in Luna - I leave it to your imagination where I found enough books to make 300+gp per circuit of Luna houses :D
    3. Buy magery/eval/med up to 40 take the magery gain quest and kill zombies in old haven until quest complete. Buy and feed a horse.
    4. take the eval quest and kill zombies in old haven until quest complete - equip resulting ring. This is the ONLY armor the character has!
    5. Find the npc in Haven that sells magery scrolls up to level 4. Buy those and put them in my spell book
    5. Request in chat or in Luna for someone to mark me a rune to Luna (not essential, but it helps with the next part).
    6. Use a corrupted portal found at one of the Luna shops to reach Despise, empty the barrels there until I have found the following spells - Mind blast, blade spirit, mark.
    7. Return to Haven and kill zombies until reaching 55 skill (switch to casting mind blast at 53)
    8. Kill earth elementals in Haven Mine using mind blast and blade spirits till 60 skill. Collect all gold and gems. Sell the gems to Luna Jeweler.
    Note: at this point the char still has no armor beyond the ring from the eval quest.
    9. Buy a blank rune book in Luna and some blank runes from the npc there. Using a crystal portal visit each town in turn to mark runes by the stones. My task done.
    All gold for buying reagents, spells and the rune book came from hunting in old haven and the mine, selling books and gems and Haven town escorts. The only thing I asked for, on any shard, was a rune marked in Luna - I provided the rune.
     
  48. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah but you are training magery, not a melee skill. Despise used to be the melee train area more than anything else. Take your char with it's 60 magery skill and go kill the lizards and ogrelords and see how well you do, and then take a melee character in there and do the same. Much much easier with a summons, and being able to spell heal & invis than trying it with 60 melee, crap armor and bandaids with no where to hide.

    I know I could do it too, if I really wanted to as I know how to train and am a vet, and know how to get money quick and how to do the new haven quests to kit out better armor etc. A total new player (melee), as I have seen, gets creamed just on the earth eles once they have finished in new haven to around 60, the jumping off ground for the 'old' despise level.

    They need a dungeon to train 50-100 MELEE skill in that does not mix lizards with ogrelords, that is suitable for a real 'new' player not a 'vet' playing a new char. The two are TOTALLY different.
     
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  49. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Well, can't invis with less than 60 skill, but I take your point.
    My way to 'invis', which would also apply for melee, was to keep going outside and healing. Joust around the entrance till your skill is higher.
    For melee training - stay in Old haven longer, after that I have advised new players on Europa to move covetous level 1. The harpies only aggress when attacked, so you can't get overwhelmed. Don't attack anything else in there and don't go beyond the headless miners. The gazers will attack.
     
  50. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    Unlike Ettins, those harpies take quite a bit of time to kill with a newbie character and the monetary return from them is pretty low.
    Ettins gave you 200+ gold. Those barely give 50 and take 5 times longer to kill.
    Selling their feathers can help a bit with the monetary income, but that doesn't change the fact that we need a "new" dungeon like old Despise where young players could train and make some decent gold to allow themselves to get set up.

    I have recently trained an archer from ground up. Training from 50 to 75 was a pain due to the lack of old Despise. Even with good armour, you can't kill earth elementals easily at that skill level and on top of that, you get slow skill gains because the skill difference is too high.
    I ended stuck killing the two ettins that spawn near Haven mine to get decent gains and gold. But that spawn is slow.
     
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