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Healing is underpowered in PvM

Discussion in 'UHall' started by gjohnson5, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    One of the concerns raised in this thread that had some good points but for the most part I found to be misinformed as a whole

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=126150

    Is the point that chivalry can take 60 points and can heal 35-40 points and can happen very quickly with higher faster casting. IMHO this is totally out of balance with healing in which there is no way to speed to the time to bandage self and requires 200 points before it really works. If a sucumbus paragon is hitting casting 3 and 4 spells at you , you're probably going to have to run anyways. The fact that healing allows you to stand and fight more or less doesn't help in cases like this. Not to mention spirit speak can heal you even if DP'd. Spirit Speak doesn't take 5-6 seconds to do AND enhances necro spells.

    The second issue seems to be monster intelligence. Why is it that I seem toget poisoned at second 5 just before my heal is about to kick in. I lose a heal completely. Then you have to wait another 5-6 seconds just for it to happen again.

    Healing is very out of balance with the other 2 skills. If I have to spend 200 points before a skill really works, then
    1. I shouldn't have to wait 6 seconds (or atleast I should be able to wear/do something that increases this)
    2. Should be able to cure AND heal some hp if PvM magery is alot of to spamming poison

    In general melee needs revamping along with the healing skill
     
  2. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    And why is it that this can happen, even with GM resist? everything, from an imp to a lich to almost anything at all out there, consistently poisons me all the time with GM resist. I knew resist was almost useless, but still, can't this be adjusted to where it has *some* usefulness?
     
  3. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Melee absolutely needs to be revamped as the damage levels in the middle to upper ends have simply gone out of control.

    However the key thing about Close Wounds that you are forgetting is that CW can be interrupted. Some unless you have the Protection spell active or a significant amount of FC, you have to deal with the probability of being interrupted (and against magic using creatures will be quite often) whereas with a bandage, unless you take 25 or more HP in damage, you will suffer no reduced effects during the course of the bandage.

    Next, I agree with the poisoning issue (as well as with Weaken and Curse) which makes it a right pain to deal with magic using creatures. I think the key to the debuff issue is that Resist needs to be revamped not just to reduce the timeframe of these effects, but to actually resist them more successfully.

    Yes, Healing takes 200 skill points (or really 160 if you don't mind a little less chance at Ressing someone), but one of those skills (Anatomy) is useful for melee combat on its own as a Damage Increase support skill (kind of a secondary Tactics) and as such lends itself to dual duty as a support skill for damage and for healing (which saves 80 - 100 points right there).

    One of the interesting, yet abandoned changes to Healing was part of the original Diminishing Returns system. During the testing of that system, Healing worked a LOT like Confidence in Bushido. While a bandage was active, your HP regen rate would shoot sky high and you would gain the HP throughout the course of bandaging with a small "burst" at the end. This was interruptable just like using a bandage now, however it would only slow the regen rate with each hit instead of stopping it like with Confidence.

    I think the devs went in the right direction PvM-wise with how the Officer NPCs in the Faction created invasions are done. They deal a decent amount of damage, but not insta-kill by any stretch and the upper end ones take a LOT to kill them especially in one on one melee (I fought one that took at least 20 minutes and by the time he was near death I had destroyed every piece of armor and clothing he was wearing due to mace fighting... I know some players would hate tp deal with something THAT long PvM-wise, but for a higher end "boss" type creature, that's about right... others should be less of an issue, but we should NOT be one hitting gargoyles or two or three hit killing daemons.
     
  4. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Agreed on resist, but prepare for people to come in telling you to start using orange petals.
     
  5. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    I disagree. With enhanced bandages and healing, my warriors are pretty much unkillable in PvM.

    But then from my experience, everything is OVERPOWERED in PvM. Creatures as powerful as Balrons and Ancient Wyrms are easy prey to a solo player (mages, warriors, tamers, or bards - you pick). I've soloed quite a few Dark Fathers and all the DOOM bosses that come before them. I've heard of characters that can solo the Twisted Wealde.

    These creatures should wreak far greater havoc than any single player could hope to handle. PvP should pale in comparison to the damage and strength of most High-Fame creatures, but sadly they don't.

    Oh yeah...start using orange petals. :)
     
  6. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Clearly some of you dont use petals
    Doesn't matter w/or without orange petals.
    There is a 2-3 second delay before orange petals cure's poison.
    Getting poisoned such that the heal cures poison instead of the petals happens alot too

    I wish the petals lasted longer as well. I go to the champ spawns and I seem to be eating petals every 3 minutes or so
     
  7. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Bandages do seem to be a bit underpowered in PvM but I am LOVING it in PvP.
    Unless its a outnumbered dismount gank, my 4/6 chiv healing dexer have never been killed 1v1.
     
  8. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    I fight Balrons, AW's, Dragons, Greater Dragons, and all the DOOM bosses, and being poisoned is not one of my major concerns. It's barely a blip on the radar.

    Methods for Curing Poison:
    1) Mage Cure or Greater Cure
    2) Cure or Greater Cure Pots
    3) Chiv Cleanse by Fire
    4) Orange Petals
    5) Probably a Necro or Spellweave method

    Healing:
    1) Bandages and Enhanced Bandages
    2) Mage Heal and Greater Heal
    3) Heal Pots
    4) Chiv Close Wounds
    5) Weapon Hit Life Leech
    6) Necro
    7) Probably Spellweave.

    There are so many ways to heal and cure, PvM is a walk in the park.
     
  9. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Nice post.
    Yes Spellweaving, I think Gift or Renewal will do it
    Necro way to cure is obviously Vampiric Embrace which is the same as Orange Petals (but seems to kick in a bit faster)

    Spellweaving can Gift or Renewal and Attunement which will heal or shield you from damage.

    To be honest the most reliable way to avoid being poisoned is Unicorn Form in Ninjitsu (does not apply to being DP'd) In this form you actually would not get poisoned. Curing poison from bandages and orange petals has reliability issues. I wish the petals and/or bandages kicked in faster. If you're getting blasted by spells , the wait time is a bit long considering PvM casting rate
     
  10. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    sure maybe healing yourself is underpowered in pvm but get two dexers together and cross heal and show me a monster that will kill them.

    MMO- Means massivly multiplayer online game

    Learn to play with other ppl and stop asking for the super buff my chars up compaired to everything else.

    and for casting speeds for other sources of healing lets say your fighting a para balron and you decide o crapple this thing is to much and run away you stop to cast a close wounds and in that time the monster has done 2 flamestrikes and hit you for insta death. With bandaids you never have to stop running or worrie about mods on your suit even the max healing speed only requirs 15 dex from items or a single pot and you will probly want that dex for swing speed anyways.

    Healing skill with no items on owns any other form of healing hands down and doesnt even ask you to stop to do it

    Edit: incase someone responds and doesnt know healing times are halfed on another player and theres no cap for heal speed for another player allowing 1 second heals
     
  11. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Your point is dubious at best
    The other skills I mentioned (spirit speak and chivalry) don't rely on other people...
    It's a balance issue
     
  12. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    the other skills you named can be fizzeled and require you to stand still as well as have manna and in the case of chiv fc to be worth casting. Healing requirs none of this

    edit:fixed spelling error
     
  13. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Healing can fail at lower skill levels just like the other skills can fizzle at lower skill levels.

    This was already addressed. Healing takes 6 seconds to complete. The other skills have faster casting to decrease the time it takes to complete. There is no faster casting for healing.

    On this issue of being forced to stand still , this is more or less true for most casting skills. Healing is not spell based. Which means the other skills have other functionality. All healing does is heal and it does that much slower then the other skills

    Because healing is static and limited in its functionality. It cures if your poisoned or heals if you're not... It does nothing else

    I'm not nit picking spelling to discredit as others people do on there. IMHO that when threads turn into trolling. Just trying to get the point across
     
  14. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    i was not talking about fizzling as in opps my skill fail i was talking about o my taht clumsy poison spaming monster or player cast a spell or hit me while i was trying to cast my healing method and Fart my spell fizzles.

    Im gonna counter your agrument by saying Healing is over powered in pvm name another skill that can heal a player in 2 secs for 55 hit points without requiring you to stop swinging your uber hit them for 100+ weapons and in the same use if the intended target of the heal becomes poisoned cure said poison. granted to do this you need someone to play with.

    the not having to stop swinging your weapon could apply just as well with healing when playing solo.

    there items that increase healing speed put on plus 10 dex items on when at 10 dex and see what happens. infact items decrease the max healing speed by an entire second past what you can get without items. +15 dex from 125 equats to 4 second heals. only chiv can compair to that and it takes 4 non artie items were as healing only needs 2
     
  15. Ozymandies

    Ozymandies Guest

    So what is being said here is that everything works to cure poison EXCEPT resist.

    I always thought it was stupid that with 100 resist I can get poisoned by anything that requires only a lesser cure pot to cure.

    I have taken to buying 20 lesser cure pots at the alchemy shop rather than using so many petals.

    OZ
     
  16. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    I gather healing speed was once based on your dex score. I hope that still isn't the case. My warrior takes an age to apply bandages, and his dex is pretty close to max.

    Heheh. Once they made it so that tamers needed dex to apply bandages to pets quickly. That caused an uproar (many tamers go around with as little dex as possible, as they usually don't swing a weapon).
     
  17. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    yes dex is still tied to the speed you can heal at 140 dex you heal in 4 seconds. It used to be able to get so high you could do it in 1 thank god they caped that.
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Healing is perfectly fine. PvM is too easy.
     
  19. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Thats when it was really ********, and when they capped that there was a riot of dexers going "wtfmate? nerf the balance? mage online more?" Some people just dont care about balance.
     
  20. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    lol. You can two man any monster in this game with 2 dexxers x-healing.
     
  21. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Keeper
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    Sampire on its own can solo anything.
    And i dont even use healing!
     
  22. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    Well then, prepare yourself for people to tell those people this,

    you STILL get poisoned, petal dont compare to resist when resisting the spell poison, which comes to the problem items taking over skill, which the devs keep on exacerbating by adding MORE and MORE items taking over skill.
     
  23. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    My bushido guy has 120 healing and anatomy and I don't remember ever getting a 55 point heal swinging or not. Youre also forgetting the fact that it requires another 120 points of anatomy to come even close to that


    Now this is turning into trolling and not making sense at all.
    Most everyone has said that melee is underpowered. IMHO that is correct. Due to the resists of any 1/2 way decent monster , you're not going to get 100 hit point hits on those monsters with a slayer , enemy of one or anything else you name.

    You counter argument isn't close to realistic

    Still dubious. UO having lost 641 million dollars cannot continue to assume that groups of people who know each will cross heal for instance at the champ spawns. Even @ GL the Valor spawn is mostly empty. You need atleast 2 people with healing and both need to know/trust each other. My chars are mostly unguilded. I'm also not a 16 year old playing with my friends....

    Still not worth 200-240 points.


    You're overstating the value of dex. I run around with 130 dex. Adding 20 more won't make healing work in a manner which is fair based on spawn numbers vs active players in certain areas
     
  24. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Im having to think about how to gimp my chars so I don't use it either
    IMHO the reason why these gimp templates exist that don't use healing is because the skill (+ the anatomy needed) is expensive and underpowered
     
  25. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    anatomy does more than just add to healing so you cant even count that as it takes 240 skill points in your points about healing.
    Anatomy adds to damage aprox 60% of base at gm.
    AND LOL at dexers underpowered in pvm when was the last time you heard about any mage temp soloing dread horn or dark father.

    Hitting 100+ damage a swing is extremly easy using an ornate axe with deamon slayer enemy of one and 100 di with 100 tatics and 100 anatomy hits the df for Player to Monster: 134-149 HP you can actualy get 50% more damage from perfection bonuses getting you to the near 200 a swing mark and lets not even talk about the critical hit where you ignor the dark fathers 40 resists

    another high end monster you say

    Balron paragon same weapon same skills same everything as darkfather but with cons weapon added in Player to Monster: 96-128 HP

    1 more

    greater dragon paragon same skills this time a dragon slayer weapon Player to Monster: 86-128 HP


    NO we dexers are underpowered in pvm and cant possibly hit for over 100

    hell on my bush mage when we do the coon i can hit for 140 on a critical hit


    heals never do 55? with 120 healing 120 anatomy You will heal 43-70 damage with each bandage. Realy we never see 55 not to even mention 70. Hell on a healing mage ive hit 55 with only 90 healing and 100 anatomy.

    you dont play with other ppl you say..... maybe you should and you would see healing is fine as is
     
  26. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    you know i think your point is more this and i could agree with much ezier: other forms of healing are over powered in pvm
     
  27. Cbeeman1

    Cbeeman1 Guest

    The crimnson dragon says; Hi!

    No type of healing helps when you are hit with 120 pt fire and 70 pt strike at the same time. That's with an all 70 suit. I've seen a couple of times 5 numbers stream in succesion above my head, all above 60. And then the area effect stuff starts messing with x healing too.
     
  28. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    So 190 pt of instant damage huh. I am sure spirit speak, close wound, greater heal, confidence, or [insert any healing method here] wouldnt have saved you neither.

    Healing skill by itself used by good solo dexer is very effective, and very very powerful in PvP for the mobility along and the biggest single heal in game. Tho I can see if used toe-to-toe with a super mob it wouldnt have cut it (actually none of the other healing method would).

    Above poster is correct on xhealing. Even tho the healing range is limited to 2-tile its the most powerful healing method in game when used by 2 dexers. If you have never you seem 2 sampires xhealing each other as fast as possible you have no idea how much can be achieved by 2 dexers. Actually I have seem two xhealing dexers tanking crimson dragons while everyone else shooting from distance. It has the highest healing over time rate, at zero mana expense.

    The fact is before tamers had their crazy pets (cu, GD, dread) most high end tanking was done by 2 parry dexers. Just because tamers can now easily act as 1 man tanking + nuking army doesnt mean other skills are too weak. It's their pets that got too powerful and in comparsion everything else seem to be underpowered.
     
  29. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Actually, for tamers, it's a choice of weapons too. Cu/GDs can tank really well, but DPS doesn't come close to what warriors can do. If a tamer goes for high DPS teams/packs like rune beetle/bake or 5 frenzies, they don't have the HP to tank and dies very easily.

    In pvm they are fine, I would say even underpowered due to the DPS. However, in PvP, from all the threads I have read, they are a bit overpowered.

    To start balancing this, I think HP (and mana) for players should be doubled first, then we can start looking at damage in PvM.

    As to healing, as others have said, 2 warriors x-healing is amazing, esp if both have enough dex to reach the 2 sec threshold. But the difference between x-healing and solo healing is a bit too vast. Esp if your fingers keep slipping when you get hit.

    Perhaps bump the speed up a little for self healing or raise the hp healed? You should know your body better than others, right?
     
  30. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I said tanking + nuking in a way to express a tamer can easily to have a pet that tank great while having enough DPS to not suck.

    I know my disco tamer with Cu or GD can solo Lady Mel with ease, and I in fact do it from time to time. Yet of course I cant kill as fast as say our favorite Paladin Necro Samurai Archer/Dexer aka Sampire (a well developed sammy will have chiv in their template also) but I am indeed a 1 man army myself.

    Tamers are varstile. No one is MAKING YOU TO DPS OR NUKE. IF you play a tamer even a "low dps" GD or Cu can have great dmg output especially when tamer can easily fit music/discord into their template. My GD has 128.7 wresl and 122 tactics with 976hp 710str pre-buff. Also decent resists across the board (even its lowest cold resist is at 54). I disco anything bardable and I dont feel myself being "low DPS" like you suggested.

    You gotta know when to use what pet. And I know where the balance between DPS and Tanking is. Against some mobs where I can heal my beetle without much problem, with disco I even outshine sampire sometimes. When the mob is something big like peerless boss, I whip out my GD, and for some rare instance where the mob has really low cold and energy resist I use my Cu. I can be a nuke, or a tank and sometimes BOTH. Just gotta know how to play, when to med, when to vet and when to gheal.

    2x Vamp Sammy Paladins xhealing would own about everything (crimson dragon included) in game with great DPS...
     
  31. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    2 manned crimson dragon a couple of times, it wasn't hard and there were a few tricks you had to do. It's really not that hard.

    The only monster which you will die numerous times with 2 dexxers standing there and x-healing is Rikktor. But if you know when to run to avoid EQ you can live quite easily.
     
  32. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I agree with what you said. My provoke/tamer coupled with my wife's discord/tamer does really well. She would use a GD to tank, I would use a rune beetle/mare combo for DPS. With 2 people vetting (g.heal against bosses like shimmering that does area damage), we're basically fielding an almost unstoppable army. Just don't bring the disco bard to travesty :D

    When I said low DPS, I was comparing to warriors as you described.

    The only times that you ever need to bump people off the DPS list is against mobs like grim reaper, ethereal shadow lord, where only the top or top 3 get rewards which a tamer is at a disadvantage (given the number of people there). DF is a bit iffy when you have more than 16 warriors attacking, sometimes you don't get looting rights. When you discord something, the reduced resists also helps warriors with their DPS. So unless you are soloing, the GD or Cu in this case while a great tank, probably won't do as well as the dexxers.

    I'm not complaining, just like different pets are suited for different situations as we both agree on, I have found different templates more suited for different mobs/missions. Some peerless I bring warriors, others I bring tamers. For DFs, I have the most success with my mage.
     
  33. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    I agree with the posts about raising player's hit points. This would also be a workable solution in that warriors would be spared more time to heal. Also many of the overpower issues in pvp could be partially worked around with more hit points. With the current system, a player cannot take much damage. 1 rikkitor hit and there goes all your hp and stamina even in a 70's suit Having more of a buffer would help
     
  34. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    you need high healing, high dex, and high anatomy to heal really fast.
     
  35. anyone take into account if you die, 0 points required. You can get rezzed and grab your stuff and pick up where you left up in PvM. That requires 0 points.

    And when they fix the stealable thingy that rez's you. You wont even need another play.


    So whats all the hub ub?
     
  36. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest


    NO healing speed is tied to dex period. The amount healed and succes of heals is based on healing and anatomy skill. Higher healing or anatomy do not increase healing speed