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Health care

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Atlantian, Oct 14, 2008.

  1. Atlantian

    Atlantian Guest

    How many of you honestly think that the health care system in this country (USA) is good for all Americans? I think it sucks! I make good cash and still can't afford it! Very few of us can afford our health care system now. VERY FEW! I keep hearing how we have the best heath care in the world (only if you have the cash or insurance) but, why is it then that the euro countries are the ones making the all the great discoveries?
     
  2. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Uhm because they, in reality, are not?

    Because they and all the rest of the world come to America for their Heath Care?

    You are making a mistake to connect affordability to Quality of Care, as in to prove the American Health Care is not the best in the world.

    But the answer to the question you should have asked, is there is a 3 legged stool.

    Leg One, Patients, they go to the health care system and at any opportunity, they will go for the WIN. Meaning, if they have any insane reason to do so, they will bring litigation vs the Doctor, the Nurses, the Hospitals, the suppliers of bed sheets if necessary to be able to cash in on their Lottery Ticket.

    Leg Two, Doctors and Hospitals, The cost to be either one is astronomical, in part because of the malpractice insurance and (for hospitals) the absolute need to have the best toys in the world even if it can never ever pay for itself. Why? Simple if they do not then they do not get the business.

    Leg Three, Insurance Companies. What can one say, they sit in the middle and take advantage of both sides. They win no matter what. If the Legal System succeeds in a 100M Law Suit because a nurse put on the wrong bandage, even though that had no effect, then the Insurance Company simply raises the insurance rates FOR EVER. They always win, no matter what.

    You think this is outlandish? Well think again.

    A Woman has headaches and her Doctor can not determine any reason why.

    The Doctor prescribes a CAT Scan.

    The Woman goes and has the CAT Scan.

    It shows absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, every one is rather puzzled why the Woman is having the Headaches.

    The Woman files suit against the Doctor and the Hospital. Turns out she is a Psychic/Terrot Reader, Palm Reader, Astrologer etc. She is aledging the CAT Scan has destroyed her abilities.

    Are you ready for the results?

    She wins a $1,000,000US settlement. The Defendant could NOT PROVE that the CAT Scan could NOT destroy said abilities. The Woman had several .... customers testify that she was legitimate.

    You have the answer to the question you really wanted to ask.

    Different context.

    A Hospital admits an 85 year old woman, even to the casual observer (me) she is dieing.

    Looking at the records one sees $800,000+ US in test were ran on this woman within 24 hours. She is now dead. Looking through the ancillary medical records no evidence of any tests being performed.

    Sounds bad doesn't it.

    Now, 45 days later, the checks come in for the $800,000+ bill to Medicare/Medicaid, total $8,000. I talked to the Head of the Hospital about this, he said it was the only way they could cover the free work being performed on the Walk Ins.

    You have the answer to the question you should have asked.
     
  3. Atlantian

    Atlantian Guest

    You pointed it out well. Because of the policies here we can sue for BS and the hospitals do charge outrage prices but the health care system here SUCKS! We can only get the care if we have insurance or cash for it. Euro countries don't have to worry about that. And how can anyone say their care is worse than ours? No one person can and if anyone says that it's worse than here had better be a duel citizen. (Fox news doesn't count) 100% of the people getting health care rather than only the ones that can afford it looks damn good to me.
     
  4. Dutchhans

    Dutchhans Guest

    Medical discoveries aren't really done by countries any more, but by global corporations who hire researchers for their skills, facilities and local laws, and that can be Europe, the USA or any other area in the world.

    Medical care is as accessible in the US as in Europe (lived 30 years in the US and a little less in Europe) the main difference is that over here (Europe) it is a system. You have a Family practitioner who you visit or call first, that family practioner deals with your problem or sends you to a specialist of your choice. Insurance is mandatory, and only subsidized for children and people who earn less than €25000 a year, who get a monthly check to cover part of their insurance bill. Insurance is between €90 and €110 for the basic (mandatory) package and you have an annual co-pay of €150.

    In the you can always get medical care, even without insurance, just crash an emergency room, they can't send you away. But if you cannot pay, the hospital and county pays. Also because people do not have insurance they wait till the last moment, often when the problem has gone past a simple cure/procedure. Emergency rooms and emergency personnel are expensive, treating an infection is more expensive than just treating a wound. In other words the inefficiency of the system makes health care a lot more expensive in the US for those who are capable of paying.
     
  5. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I am no longer current on this policy (as a generalization) but up until 2000 Most Hospitals will write off any and all debt that a patient can not afford. This should not be looked at as a get out of jail free card. They do in fact try to get as much money as possible, without bringing undue stress on the person/family.

    An example, a $280,000 Breast Cancer procedure, stay and Treatment Tamoxifen+Chemo+Radiation, was performed on a woman with no insurance. The bill is settled for $8,000 one time payment after the work is fully performed (6 months later).

    Most Doctors (as in all I have worked with) and most Hospitals (as in all I have worked with) will say the same thing.

    We are here to save lives. It is just a matter of finding out how we can do that and stay in business.
     
  6. Atlantian

    Atlantian Guest

     
  7. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    There is a segment of the American population that is almost never recognized.

    These people have had health care issues that are both systemic and long term.

    For example, Breast Cancer, Heart Surgery.

    Should these people fall off the Insurance Rolls, before they can be picked up by what medicare(?), then the majority of the people, as in 99% (States have health care programs for them but they are severely limited and are budgetary items, meaning they can be cut, partially or totally) will live their lives with NO HOPE of ever getting insurance no matter how much they are able or willing to pay.

    These people are classified as UNINSURABLE. There numbers are not just a few, but in the hundreds of thousands.

    And Dutchhans is 100% right the last minute Emergency Room visit, or heck even the Walk in Homeless/Illegal Immigrant uninsured person is consuming a high priced resource and these facilities, rightfully so, can not refuse treatment.
     
  8. Dutchhans

    Dutchhans Guest

     
  9. Kazar

    Kazar Guest

    I lost my insurance after having a fight with cancer. So I am not a big fan of the insurance companies. The health care was great though and the kind of chemo that was used on me was developed in Europe. I would not have a problem with a form of socialized medicine here. But that's just my opinion.
     
  10. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    If you don't mind, I would like to ask you, what your impressions are of some things.

    It is widely believed that one of the greatest obstacles to socialized medicine in the U.S., is that we tend to believe the cost of the health care we receive is correlated to the quality of the health care we receive.

    There are numerous studies that tend to support this belief.

    Now then, if a Socialized Health Care were put in place in the U.S., along side/in addition to, the current Insurance System, would you beleive the individuals taking advantage of that system, vs people with Insurance, were receiving lower quality health care, the same quality health care or higher quality health care.
     
  11. Kazar

    Kazar Guest

    I don't think it would be bad. In my opinion it would probably improve the wait times in hospitals because then the hospitals wouldn't have to care for insured first then the uninsured second. Because the insurance companies have a grip on the hospitals. A very close friend of mine works as a administrator for a hospital and she told me that they are required to take care of the insured first then the uninsured (Unless it's life threatening, then they come first) That would make everyone equal I would think. I may be wrong but that's what I think.
     
  12. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    So fore the purpose of discovery, I will assume your reply was they would be equal.

    Now then, you take your child to the hospital with a serious illness.

    You and an Insured person walk in at the same time, their child seems to have basically the same issue.

    We shall keep it all equal for the purpose of discovery.

    Your child and the Insured child appear to get the same attention and treatments.

    Your child does not live.

    The Insured child does.

    What would be your perspective of why things turned out the way they did. I would be very interested in your friends insight on this.

    Please there is no right or wrong answer here. There is the opportunity to discover if both systems could realistically co-exist.
     
  13. Locker

    Locker Guest

    Profit being involved with health care is a losing proposition. Think how terrible it might be if other public health and safety services worked on the money system. A fire stations receives a fire alert and checks the credit report of the home owner to make sure they can pay for the fire service call before they will even go to your home, if you can't, too bad your house burns down.

    We are well beyond the wealth and resources need to feed, cloth, house, educate and provide health care for every single person in this country. Unfortunately it's very common for politicians on both sides of the isle to bought and paid for by insurance companies so it is not in their best interests to help the people.

    Personally I think we, as Americans, should continue to demand universal health care until each and every one of us is covered from the cradle to the grave.

    Peace,

    Locker
     
  14. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I am not in disagreement ... well a bit.

    Let me re characterize it this way.

    You have teachers.

    Group A - Teaching is their Bliss, their calling, they are good at it and love it. It fills them with happiness. Their Students prosper and get involved in learning.

    Group B - Teaching is their Meal Ticket and they are good at it.

    Group C - Teaching is their Meal Ticket and they are mediocre to bad at it.

    Group D - Teaching is there way to Get Jane / Joe to ... do what ever.

    Now just remove Teaching/Teacher and substitute in any Social Service Label.

    I want to populate the Social Services with Group A.

    I want to grease the path for that Doctor so it doesn't cost them 500,000 US Dollars to graduate. So they can have a good, respectable living until they die.

    The same for Nurses, Teachers etc.

    I want to educate Society, that they need to recognize the incredible service these people do for all of us and give them the respect they so richly deserve.

    I want Group B only when and If Group A has insufficient numbers to do the job.

    I want to remove the Group C and D from these services.

    AND MOST OF ALL, I WANT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO BE GROUP A.

    I want to pry the cold bony fingers of these mediocre politician pigs feeding at the trough, from the American Peoples Pocket Books, Life, Hopes and Dreams. I most certainly want to replace them with their equivalent Group A people.
     
  15. Pennywise

    Pennywise Guest

    Considering people of means leave their own countries to come here for treatment...

    In my town, my doctor, and others, for years have alerted us here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, not to make appointments except in the case of emergency in the month of February.

    That is CanAm month, when all the Canadians come down for sun, and when they use the insurance they purchase before their trips to see the doctors during their stay.

    Guess they can't get the same treatment in Canada, where national health insurance reigns supreme.

    Any message here?
     
  16. Kazar

    Kazar Guest


    That's a good question and I will talk to her. The way I see it is as long as the treatment was the same there is no fault just loss.
     
  17. Kazar

    Kazar Guest

    My cousin and his wife went to Canada to have their child. Considering the cost here compared to there...I didn't blame them one bit. And they told me the health care was great.
     
  18. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    This is fine and perhaps the fix would be to change / introduce laws to prevent patients from filing lawsuits.

    Perhaps these perceived failures in the system could be best resolved by a peer review board that could then decide if the action warranted a law suit and actually bring the law suit on the behalf of the person. In addition there may need to be a cap set by the peer review board on settlement.

    I really am interested in your friends views.
     
  19. Lord Urza

    Lord Urza Guest

    Whats health care? havent been able to afford that for a while....I think id rather die , then live under some serious health care debt.
     
  20. Kazar

    Kazar Guest

    Health care? That's what mom used to do when you had a boo boo. Just joking with ya. And to Enigma. I have not had a chance to talk to my friend yet. Will get with you as soon as I talk to her. Have a great day people.
     
  21. monnie101

    monnie101 Guest

    Wow I should stay away from this thread I have some heavy feelings on the subject of both American health care as well as public education. It's all gone down the tubes but the big guys running the country don't care to help it get better because fact is that they want to keep people dumb and ignorant and in a manner that keeps them at a place so they can't do anything to change the system. Rockefeller has said it himself, well others have quoted him as saying it and I personally believe it. Ask 20 people in the street randomly, "who are the presidential candidates" and they will reply, "Obama, McCain, and Hilary" they don't know who is currents and they don't even know the 3rd party candidates.

    Ok if anyone knows how bad health care is, I think I'm one that should qualify. So as someone who has been thru plenty of doctors, let me tell you what the best way to get help is. Educate yourself and learn yourself!

    Here's my story in a quick way.

    Go to doctors, they don't know what's wrong with me. Unless you have a cold or just need need stuff like penicillins or painkillers, they really have no desire to help you 98% of the time. You are like a car and they are mechanics. They need to get as many cars in and out quickly as possible!

    For over years I went to doctors. Some even laughed at me. Some assumed everything was all in my head. So what I did was I begun to read health books and try everything. If I thought I might had something, I read more, talked to people who had it, I went to libraries, the Internet was the best place. I bought books from Amazon. Eventually I hit what I thought it might be. So I went and looked for doctors on the Internet, good doctors, I called the one that wrote the book! He was a really nice guy but it would take a year to see him because he was backed up. So I went to another recommendation. This doctor confirmed by own diagnosis and actually helped me! Yes that's right I diagnosed myself first! I still find doctors who laugh at me when I confront their egos and I tell them my story, then they tell me well if you don't like me, go find someone else!

    Doctors in my eyes are like cops, you have a ton of bad ones but their are some good ones and you have to weave around to find them. It takes a lot of stress, time, and money, and help, to find these good ones. Another way they are like cops is because they have huge egos. They think they know everything and they will assume you know nothing! They will assume that they know your body better then you do.

    Now remember, if you do find a good doctor, the system is still a barrier. They want these doctors to be turning out a certain amount of patients a day. They don't want them spending time actually trying to figure out what is wrong with someone. I've sat down and had a discussion with some people in the system who tried to tell me that their are more good doctors then I believe but that they are unable to help me because it's not profitable for their office. The 2 doctors I have right now that are good, own the office. Then again their is another one that is a jerk who owns his office. He's the one who would try to feed me his pills of all kinds when I told him that I was fine on this dose of this and that. But instead of giving me what I need, he always wanted to play around with the doses. Every time I said I felt fine there and not to change anything, he would start to lower me and I'd feel worse. I even told me, you do this and I will feel horrible for weeks until I see you next. So he says, "well if that happens just schedule another appointment earlier" yeah so I can see you every week right? So you can pay for your boat right? I know what's going on.

    So my point is that if you want to be healthy you have to learn to help yourself. I'll tell you, I'm the doctor to me! I've spent plenty of cash on my doctors every month because this one doctor won't take my health insurance because it takes 6 months for the insurance to pay him. One doctor I had that did take it, actually ranted on me swearing as if it was my fault, "That F'in health insurance company still hasn't paid me and it's been months! I'm telling you right now you are the last one I take for health insurance patients. From here on it's cash only!"

    [EDIT] How about the Emergency rooms? 3-6 hours wait! If you are bleeding to death they will not bring you in until you actually pass out and go out. You have to actually be dying for them to take you in right away.
     
  22. Kazar

    Kazar Guest

    I know about what you are talking about when it comes to emergency rooms. Only here it's more like 12-16 hour wait if you don't have insurance. (Unless you are bleeding profusely) then it only takes a couple of hours. By then you are so light headed that you don't know the difference.