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Discussion in 'UHall' started by kelmo, Jan 15, 2012.

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  1. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You folks remember this?

    http://vboards.stratics.com/uhall/232875-roc-rule-b-help-build-community.html

    We are a web site that supports this game. As a matter of fact, Stratics supports many games. Take a look around.

    I will be sending some few of you an invitation to create your own sites soon. On your own sites, you can say anything you wish. You will be able to rant, rave what ever you want to do... it will be your own site.

    While you are visiting our's please mind the rules you agreed too. If you have any questions as to what you agreed too, feel free to look through the FAQ. You agreed to those rules. You know you did.

    You may not have read them. I did. I had too... Now post like you agreed to those rules...
     
  2. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    :thumbup1:

    /signed

    Will do my best.
     
  3. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Kylie... This will not be a popular decision. I do not think... I was given the badge I have because I am trusted with it.
     
  4. silent

    silent Lore Master
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    Since you've decided to admonish all of us instead of dealing with people individually. Have YOU guys looked around as far as forums go? UO is all Stratics has going on anymore. Without us viewing your banners and ADs Stratics wouldn't be around for very long.
     
  5. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    some few of you
     
  6. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Silent, most of the Stratics family knows better.
     
  7. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Oh yeah! It is not my job to generate web site hits. Most of you block that any way. I am no fool. My job is to keep the site civil.

    Treat each other with a modicum of respect. Treat the staff that works this forum with the same.
     
  8. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    More often than not it has been my experience that the right thing to do is seldom the popular thing to do.

    Just sayin'
     
  9. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    This perspective, in regards to our traffic, advertising, and longevity, is laughably misinformed. UO Stratics is a very important part of our community, but it only accounts for about a quarter of our traffic. Moreover, our newer portals are growing in viewership every single month. Readers can find crucial information on our portals without ever stepping foot into the forums--which, given the current level of general hatefulness, is probably to their credit.

    If you are feeling disgruntled regarding UO, please consider investigating some of the other titles that we support. What you may not do, however, is breach the established Rules of Conduct, including the rule mentioned above.
     
  10. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I do hope no one doubts my sincerity. I hope every one will enjoy our forums as they promised to when they joined.

    If not let me know.
     
  11. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Good post Kelmo. I think a little reminder every now and then can be a good thing.

    Obviously everyone of us that reads and posts on Stratics are passionate about UO, however it seems like lately the differing opinions and experiences often result in way too many troll posts, flame fests and/or client bashing.

    It's good to remember that rule, "if you don't have something positive or constructive to add to the conversation then don't say anything at all."

    Just for the record, I know I'm no saint.
     
  12. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    EZ... This is the hard part of what I do. 99% of the Stratics folks are good folk. 50% of the bad guys are good folk. But some few are just haters...
     
  13. Spiritless

    Spiritless Seasoned Veteran
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    Most people who post here just wanna discuss the game. They care about the game and their opinions are strong. Of course things will get heated from time to time; that's the nature of the beast, frankly. It'll always happen and threads like this are a good example. I question whether discussions like that need to be closed for that reason though; ultimately the thread is a very valid and constructive topic and is exactly the type of thing that needs to be discussed here. It has always bemused me why Stratics seems to prefer to stifle even legitimate discussions because of a bit of arguing or whatever as opposed to dealing with people individually or steering the conversation back to a more constructive tone by posting themselves.

    Most people who play UO, and thus post on this board, are far from children. I like to think the majority can handle a few pointy phrases thrown their way in the heat of the moment here and there and if people need to be calmed down a little a friendly reminder would suffice. It really comes across sometimes here as though the moderators are talking down to a bunch of kindergarteners in their tone and tbh this doesn't do much for building a strong community either.

    Take care.
     
  14. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    OK Spiritless. Take it as you will. Just discuss as you agreed to when you joined this community.
     
  15. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Any forum rule,when applied with a heavy hand,will stifle open communication. Rule B is vague enough to the point that where an Admin or Mod can lock 90% of the posts that are found in UHall alone because they are not all sunshine and smiley faces.

    In the link that Kelmo provided,Petra stated that constant negativity harms the community. I agree,but I also think that if we are only allowed to say only positive/neutral things here,it is pointless to even have a "community" at all.If all the threads here will be required to be a "group hug" then this forum will lose a lot of it's value. Which leads me to a question that I have always wanted to ask. Is the Stratics forums made for the benefit of the Admins and Mods,or the regular John Q Public member like myself?
     
  16. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    It's not negative posts that are the problem. As in the thread earlier today with the video. Are the negative posts relevant to the thread they are posted in.

    If it has NO relevance to the thread it's posted in then it's a TROLL post. Troll posts and trolling are against the RoC.

    It's not that hard to understand.
     
  17. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I agree with your statement,but I want to ask as to why threads get locked first before specific offending posts are removed. I have seen too many good threads get the ax because the admin/mod found it easier to just lock the thread.
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I'm assuming that thread was one of the reasons kelmo posted this. Storm went through the trouble to give us a nice video showing the newly revamped dungeon and the majority of posters did nothing but bash the client that was used. I'm pretty sure that was an example of how to not build community.
     
  19. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Airing grievances is as old as Stratics. There are multiple dozen of these types of threads spread throughout Stratics Forums that are not locked. The problem is when a sound thread, expressing genuine grievances, becomes overrun with personal attacks (i.e., x group is stupid), trolling/baiting, or plain ol' bitterness, that it is no longer conducive to progress. If our moderators are having to remove every other post, the thread loses coherence and benefits no one. In sum, raise problems, but don't cross the established boundaries.

    And by the way, a special response to this:

    This is beyond hyperbolic. I've been involved in forum communities since they were called "newsgroups." You think Stratics is one of the more heavy-handed communities on the internet? You're in Oz. We'll talk more when you're ready to have a real-life discussion.
     
  20. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Hunter I understand where you are coming from, and for me {notice NO mod tag so you may not want to listen lol} I don't see it as being any kind of assault on discussion, debate or passionate disagreement of ideas. However, there are those out here that can not seperate ideas from the person. When you disagree with them {on occasion even the least little bit} they are about like Johnny Storm... "Flame on"... Then there are those who at EVERY turn have nothing but negative things to say, these are the ones who you could not please if you gave them God Mode, 1 Billion gold and a twice the size customizable castle, they would find something to gripe about even in that. As active as you are on the boards I know you have witnessed both of those situations quite a bit.

    I honestly don't think any mod wants to stifle debate that stands a chance at improving the game most of us love. Heck, they want it to thrive and be the best it can be just like the rest of us. We ALL just need to do it in a calm, rational, respectful and somewhat friendly manner is all. *shrugs* I don't think that is too much to ask {nor demand when it gets out of control}. It's not like they are trying to enforce rules on everyone else that does not apply to them, as we are all bound by the same rules.

    Just my .02 tho
     
  21. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Boss and the rest of ya, if I am telling tales out of chat that shouldn't be I offer my apologies in advance :)


    I had this very same opinion of the Mod's not too long ago. I ain't gonna lie about it. However being lucky enough to snag a reporter spot I now have the ability to access Skype Staff Chat. I can tell you that has never been the case that I have witnessed "behind the scenes". My whole view of how the Mods are has changed on that specific topic. I have seen them clean up a threads a few times {sometimes QUITE a few} before locking. It really seems to depend on how bad off it is and if they feel they can get it back under control. There are threads that I see that I think are WAY out of control and if I were a mod would lock in a heartbeat, yet they clean it up and give it a chance.
     
  22. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Forums would not exist without debate, especially the heated kind. Users do not spend copious hours of their lives creating posts about things that they don't care about. Debate is the driving force behind so-called "hot" threads--it draws users like flame does moths.

    On a separate community that I run, I recently hired three global moderators: a Buddhist/philosopher from Canada, an atheist/student from the United States, and a medical doctor from Serbia. Why? Because I knew that no discussion they create could possibly end in "smiles and sunshine." There will be arguments. I did this because I believe that it will help my community thrive.

    Therefore, we can dispense with the ruse that forum administrators and moderators hate debate. The truth is precisely the reverse.
     
  23. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I do not think Stratics is one of the heavier handed forums on the net,but it is Stratics that we are discussing here,right? As for you saying that I am living in some type of "Oz"...do you want to go down that road with me? You see how quickly I contact TGN on how one of their Admins is insulting one of their forum users.
     
  24. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Give George my regards. PM me if you need his email address.
     
  25. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Kylie,you were saying something about how the rules being applied evenly? I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over being insulted by an Admin for having a differing opinion.
     
  26. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    The public isn't interested in your personal disputes Hunter, seriously. Send your problems to the appropriate people through PMs or emails.
     
  27. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Myself, I love a good debate and discussion. Sometimes a thread gets derailed by comments that are a troll post If a mod starts removing a post here and there, plus lets add the posters that quoted the removed threads, has to be removed then the thread is toally broken.

    Trust me when I say I see a locked thread I have seen and totally understand why. I have seen threads that I didn't think should of been locked and thought it was harmless imo. That is not my call or decision why it should or shouldn't be locked. What I may take as mild insult but to another it may be offensive.

    Yes I been guilty of it myself stepping over the line a couple of times. I know of some guild sites that basically would let a royal rumble of e-raging players all get at it if they could hold such an event irl. I know of other sites that dont put up with a 1/3 of what Stratics does.

    In my forums I may be a little more flexible with discussion but I have to also follow the TOS of Stratics. Now if it is just an ego fest I would step in because that isn't about community. That would be considered more about the I not we.

    Look at it this way and I will say it like when I am on my own guild boards and vent." C'mon kids, this is a MMO and lets all put on our nerd glasses to get the full effect." :) I usually say that before we enter a Guild versus Guild fight to loosen up any tension.

    What we all do here on stratics is all volunteer time. This includes everybody that puts in any time to make sure information, news, game patches, portals, ect ect ect and we do this for the love of our games and the community. We want good debates. We want good discussions. We want topics discussed. We want a community. We do this for you.

    I cant please everybody and there will be bumps in the road because I'm far from perfect. Just think before you post especially if you are in a heated state. :)
     
  28. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I am actually waiting on a PM. I only spoke publicly because I was addressed publicly.
     
  29. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    With all due respect, you quoted that out of context. The point was that any particular rule, applied vaguely, could be used as a reason to lock anything. Which is true.

    The trouble I think some people are having at present is that even threads where there is no "personal" anything going on, because something was not "ra ra EA, gooooo Mythic," it gets locked.

    Obviously, it is Stratics' forum, but stifling discussion simply because people don't agree with the changes made to UO at all times is silly at best.

    Negativity can come in many forms. Sometimes it comes as expressing an opinion counter to what the developers and some members of the community believe to be appropriate. Thing is, when a thread that is fostering discussion gets locked simply because someone isn't wielding the requisite pompoms, the rules also clearly state, "Don't start a new thread about something that's been closed." And thus the subject becomes verboten.

    And... not to put too fine a point on it...

    Nice double standard.
     
  30. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Gilfane

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    Holy cr*p... I have no idea what precipitated this thread and I certainly wouldn't want to get "banned" or anything, but....

    what he ^^^^ said..... hey, rock'on RaDian FlGith - rock'on.
     
  31. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    @ RaDian FlGith and Startle. Welcome to Oz. It is nice here. They have golden streets and crystal castles.

    [​IMG]
     
  32. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Gilfane

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    Well it certainly sounds like fun....
    ****wonders what emoticon to use that won't get him in big trouble****

    :next:
     
  33. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Going to have to agree with RaDian on this...

    If Kelmo's post was prompted by the 'Dear EA...' thread which he locked, I must admit that I'm slightly confused. Unless a bunch of posts were deleted, I fail to see an overriding threat to the "community." Based on what is (still) in the thread, some people are disgruntled and some aren't. There are certain issues for which people need to vent - and not all venting is destructive. With Stratics being pretty much the unofficially official forums for UO (since the Devs haven't posted anywhere else in a considerable amount of time) people will respond here with how they feel about changes or perceived problems.

    A community isn't about blindly waving pom-poms at anything Mythic does or says, nor is it about a continual tirade of venomous condemnation. Some sort of balance must be struck between the two, or at least both must be accepted in equal measures. Neither should be promoted above the other.

    Part of the perceived problem with moderation on Stratics is the fairly uneven approach. Each Mod seems to have their own view of what is appropriate and what is not, which, in the end, leaves the posters in a quandary.

    A perfect example of this problem is THIS thread which, to be honest, was fairly tame for a debate on U.Hall. The debate was over the interview Mesanna did for mmorpg.com and many people, including various 'senior' Stratics staff, were participating in the debate without trashing each other. However, after nearly a day (according to the forum's clock) into the discussion, a different mod wanders in and decides that he doesn't like the conversation and rips out many, many posts...including ones that other mods had quoted or referenced. These posts had already made it past the eye of Tazar, a senior moderator, without any heavy-handed actions.

    So why were they suddenly deemed "bad" by a less senior mod? If we, the users of Stratics, who are expected to abide by the overly broad Rule B, what rules for moderation do the staff have? Are there any guidelines? If so, why is the enforcement so uneven or left open to a mod's personal feelings on a topic/poster? Why are obvious troll posts left uninfracted/undeleted, while others are gone after with a zealous glee? This doesn't leave the users with any sense of a stable foundation.

    There is going to be dissent in any community about any number of topics. Dissent in and of itself isn't a bad thing, even if it gets heated. I believe we can all fully understand nipping "personal attacks" in the bud, as this can harm community. But quashing dissenting viewpoints isn't going to 'build the community,' it will only drive people away. If that is the end goal of the OP, that is a rather unfortunate blueprint for a healthy future.
     
  34. Rupert Avery

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    When it comes to the rules I agree, you signed up you should and agreed to them so you should abide by them
    I try very hard to not to break rules and I tend to re read most things I post here before posting to make sure I am not being rude, or offensive. If I was I would expect to be told about it. I am not sure if anything I say could be considered as trolling or non constructive, I tend to be quite a neutral person in things looking at merits in both sides of any argument.

    That being said The Devs from what I gather read these forums to see what we are talking about whether good or bad. They like to know it all and can make changes or explain something further based on that.
    Now that is not me agreeing with out right flame frenzie on the devs, if you are unhappy with a change let them know and try to give an alternative solution. If you don't have an alternative then just don't be nasty about it.
    I quoted one Dev a while ago and I will do it again

    The will also understand that not everything they add will be liked by everyone.. Hazard of the job I guess.

    Anyway in closing...
    • No one should break or bend the rules you agreed to them when you registered.
    • Everyone should be treated fairly when it comes to the rules, from users to mods to admins even to the Devs as they would of had to sign up to the ToS of Stratics also.
    • The rules should not be exploited for personal use like personal vendettas.
    • Everyone should understand that there will be people here form all walks of life with many different views, opinions and ways of dealing with and processing what is said on these and any forums.
     
  35. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    The last thread I locked was discussing an exploit. It's a case of 'Mythic fix the bugs that have been around for years - but not the ones I'm exploiting?' Such threads, though started with good intentions, very rapidly slip into attacks and counter attacks about who is or isn't cheating and what constitutes it.

    When cleaning the thread out leaves nothing but the OP and when you do the posts are merely replaced with more of the same, locking it is the only sensible option.

    We have never insisted that everyone 'wave pompoms', though isn't that the function of a fan?

    We have said, if you're critical, be constructive. Believe it or not, 'Mythic sucks' is not constructive.

    If you believe something is incorrect, say why, comprehensively and suggest a solution, constructively - though 'because I can't find a way to counter it' isn't a valid argument. The game should not be tailored to compensate for particular players' inadequacies. Changes should be for the good of the game, not because one particular template can't achieve everything the person playing it thinks it should be able to.

    I wish the game were simpler, yearn for the days when you put together an invul/fortified suit, sometimes a bit mismatched, and then worked towards building a replacement for when it wore out, but I can see no feasible way back.

    I can't do the math or understand the nuances of the various options, I just go with something and hope for the best. Given a free choice I'd simplify by merging things like mana inc, lower mana cost and mana regen into one mana mod, likewise with dex enhancing mods, but I know that's not possible because most other people wouldn't want that, so I don't campaign for it on the boards, slamming everyone who doesn't agree with me.
     
  36. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    What is incorrect: I am from Oz.

    Why? : Because I live in Alabama.(The real world)

    Solution: Hold any person,even those that are Admins/Mods,to the same rules as the those that do not have a shield by our forum name.
     
  37. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    hmm, I wasn't aiming my post at you, or anyone else specific for that matter. Considering there are exactly 2 locked threads in the last 2 pages, your claim of 'lock 90% of the posts that are found in UHall' was, you have to admit, a gross exaggeration?
     
  38. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    :cheerleader:EA Mythic:cheerleader:

    :cheerleader:Kelmo:cheerleader:

    :cheerleader:Petra:cheerleader:
     
  39. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    To be clear on what I actually said: "Rule B is vague enough to the point that where an Admin or Mod can lock 90% of the posts that are found in UHall alone because they are not all sunshine and smiley faces."

    I did say "can" lock 90% of the posts found in UHall if they were to be really strict about "help the community". I did not,in any reply in this thread,state that Mods do lock 90% of the threads in Uhall.

    The purpose of my last reply above was to draw attention on how I was addressed by Syrus. If I were to do the same toward a mod/admin would not my post be removed ASAP and get a warning/infraction? Will we see a Stratics site that is more even with rule enforcement,or will we keep on with the Kelmo idea of "Mods can,you can't" policy when it comes to the rules?
     
  40. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'm shocked.

    -Galen's player
     
  41. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    The pompom wavers are definitely over encouraged at the expense of an open and honest dialogue.

    A fan isn't always going to like what they are a fan of 100% of the time. Take sports teams for example... You may praise and root for your city's team when they win and then curse their name when they fail...or curse the coach, etc.

    The same reasoning applies to UO. We all agree that we like the game, or else we wouldn't p(l)ay (for) it or bother to post on a forum dedicated to it. But it doesn't mean that we are going to take everything posted by the Devs as if it is word from on high either. Some people just love certain changes/additions, others loathe them. People want to discuss their differences.

    AoS is a perfect example of this. Many people say that it was the end of UO for them, others saw it as a new challenge. Heck, there are still those loudly complaining about Renaissance and Pub 16. Are they not fans because they didn't trumpet the Dev's names?
     
  42. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    I just want to be very clear from the start, so no one confuses my point. There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about who said what in this thread. I don't want to add to it.

    That being said, Hunter knock it off. We get it, you think you've been slighted. You say you're waiting on a PM in regard to the situation. Fine. Quietly sit there and wait for it. Continue to drag it out for all the public to see and you will earn an infraction for your trouble.

    Do I make myself clear?
     
  43. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Let us take his original post and deconstruct it.

    Only true in the most-literal sense if one counts everything stated, however vile, as open communication.

    Would be true in a more than merely literal sense if phrased as something like, "any rule can be mis-applied by the malicious."

    Or I suppose any number of others phrasings, other than the one actually used.

    Verdict: Exaggeration.

    Again, an exaggeration and a comparatively wild one. I disagree that out of context, taken as an empirical, descriptive point, it's even an exaggeration, it'd be a flat-out lie if intended that way.

    Taken as a speculative prediction? Still exaggerating. It would take an awful lot of malice to apply Rule B to the point where any post that is not sunshine and smiley faces would be locked, and frankly it'd take a lot more negativity than we actually have for 90% of posts to be lock-able under any non-insane standard.

    Verdict: As phrased, again, a wild exaggeration.

    I assume by "the link Kelmo provided" he meant the link to Rule B itself.

    Using the web browser's "find in page" function I was able to run a search on the page for the root "negativ," which should encompass "negativity" and "negative."

    I found the following.

    ONE:
    That statement does not match what the original poster wrote.

    TWO (which is actually in Rule B before quote 1):
    That statement does not match what the original poster wrote.

    Getting closer, but seen in the light of the later Quote One, it should be quite clear that even the scarily vague Rule B doesn't apply to any negative posts, which is what it would appear the original poster wanted to imply.

    THREE:
    Again, in context, clearly must be seen in the light of One, which refers to being negative in every post. Some posters clearly fit this description, i.e., are negative way past the point where they're actually responding to reality.

    Verdict: Exaggeration.

    Again, exaggeration. It would be difficult to argue that Stratics only allows positive or neutral things. Indeed I have in recent days paged on several posts that I actually consider personal attacks. (Not on me this time.)

    And nothing's been done.

    Honestly I was thinking Stratics had started to once-again over-compensate and actually favor the negative.

    So far the entire original post is looking like an exaggeration, and a rather wild one at that.

    Let us see if anything in the concluding paragraphs can change this verdict.

    Just for the Hell of it let us also include some aspects of Ra'Dian's post as well.

    Nope.

    Still a wild exaggeration.

    Do I like Kelmo? No. To the extent that he's aware of me at all he will confirm that I have been open that I do not like him.

    Do I approve of Stratics 100%? Nope. Again, to the extent that they are aware of me at all I doubt I'm on any good boy list they might have (if they have one at all).

    Do I approve of Rule B? In spirit, yes. But my worry is, and has always been, that it'll be used more against folks such as myself or Martyna's player instead of.....Others. Some applications of it have eased my worry, some have intensified it. I also think it's routinely not applied to popular folks against whom it should be applied.

    But, when I see some folks citing the First Amendment to the US Constitution as though it somehow applied to Stratics instead of Congress (directly) or the States (indirectly), as I on some occasions do? When I look over this thread and see wild exaggerations and wonder what planet the poster is from?

    Then a post like Kelmo's is both necessary a long-time coming.

    -Galen's player
     
  44. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Thank you Galen, I will endeavour to take on board your criticisms. We do our best, but I'm the first to admit, we don't always get it right.

    We're trying (very trying at times? :D) I think, with your excellent summary, we could call this thread closed.
     
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