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Hello EA. 90 point breath damage from tamed greater Dragons is a bit much,

Discussion in 'UHall' started by MoonglowMerchant, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. in case you didn't know.

    But hey, take your time fixing it. I know it takes time sorting through ten year old code. It's not like it's a new addition or anything.

    Thanks!!
     
  2. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    My crafter throws bread loafs that do 75 damage.. oil cloths that lvl 5 DP, and goblets that blast your mind.

    Well not yet at least.. Maybe next publish theyll make the crafters able to drop anything in 1 second..

    And eventually those with the uber taste id and camping skills..
     
  3. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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    In a former post, I mistakenly used the old firebreath formula. After further testing during the last week, on wild and tamed, damaged and undamaged greater dragons I came to the conclusion that the actual Firebreath formula (confirmed on Greater dragons, Dread horse and nightmares) is like :

    HP/5=Base Damage (capped at 200).
    Then you apply your fire resists

    I have never had a firebreath damage above 60 (hence I think Base Damage is capped at 200) with 70 fire resist. By removing one armor part some fire resist, I was getting firebreath damage above 60.

    Wild greater dragons can have next to 2k HP and will make 60 hp damage firebreath until they are half life while tamed ones (HP halved upon taming) can make close to 60 damage firebreath when they are full HP. For this I assume the target has 70 fire resist.

    If you receive 90 damage from a firebreath, you have somehow low fire resist (vampire form?, cursed?, ...).
     
  4. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Maybe your 2 dozen previous posts were missed by the devs... or maybe they have seen your comments and rightly decided not to make changes.


    Tamer + GD have an advantage over SOME templates, but not ALL templates.

    Enough already.... dear god!

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  5. Jaimes

    Jaimes Guest

    I don't enjoy playing tamers, nor do I enjoy playing against them in PvP.

    I have never had a tamer over 65 taming. Ugh.
     
  6. Your numbers are getting better. Kudos for taking the time to test.

    When you first posted and I told you that in my experience your numbers were wrong, I did so without knowing how that damage is calculated.

    I can see it being 1000/5=200 for tamed dragons. So, at 60 fire (which would be the number if cursed), 80 damage would ensue. I take up to 90 from untamed Greaters so the cap you suggested might be a little low.

    That is exactly why the damage needs to be reduced or capped for PvP. There is no other single attack which can do 80 damage to a cursed opponent. NONE.
     
  7. My tinker wields a mean ball peen hammer. :thumbsup:
     
  8. A question for you Yalp, since I don't play on a production shard. If you are PvPing with a pet (which I assume you do) and you kill someone, do you collect insurance gold for that?
     
  9. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    And aparently, Mining is part of the template they don't have an advantage over, since my miner kills the tamers more often than they kill him. ;)

    Seriously tho, I wish they would just slap a 60 hard cap on the fire breath so they would stop putting a new thread on this up every 14 hours.

    Of course then they would start crying that the dragons bite too hard, or that their tails are too long, or they have body odor or whatever else they can think of.
     
  10. If they did hard cap it, do you think 60 would be a good number?

    What other single attack in PvP does 60 damage? Deathstrike can I suppose, if you track them, but there you have the "option" of not running.

    Would a range from 40-60 be better?
     
  11. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Also this Tamer with cu shides are bad and a bit overpowered, the cu shide is like and rideable player, it heals itself, it bleedes and after the last patch it stops fighting with one command all follow me.

    Dismount > Cu shide (all kill) > enemy runs away > all follow me > remount > moving shot > dismount from cu shide > all kill > enemy DEAD

    Iam not crying often, but this isnt fair, because you have as mage or wairror no chance against this players, you have no thing against it, for example the confusion blast potion brings no effect when the cu is on you.

    It may be ok for fighting in trammel against monster, but in PvP i think this animals should not be so strong. Maybe a special tribal spear, which kills this anaimals with 2 - 3 hits or a special spellbook, i have no special idea how to fix this up.
     
  12. Good point. Other pets are still overpowered, particularly rune beetles. It's just that you don't see much of them anymore because of the ridiculously overpowerd nature of the greaters.
     
  13. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Actually, you would be hard pressed to find many tamer + pets in pvp. Whether they are cu's, beetles, or greaters.

    This just simply isn't an issue. It sounds like your pet issue.. but it just isn't an issue for pvp. Anyone who takes even the slightest time observing pvp won't see tamer+ pet templates taking over fel.

    It's been shown time and again, greaters don't do the damage you claim. Maybe the solution for you lies with your resist mods and tactics?

    Please.. let this dead horse lay in peace.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
     
  14. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    No one should be able to use a pet ball as an aggressor.
     
  15. If there aren't any pets in PvP where you are then I don't understand why you are so passionate about preserving the overpowered Greaters. It shouldn't matter to you should it?

    In any case, can you answer the question? Do pet kills pay gold in PvP on production shards?
     
  16. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    it doesn't matter. all pvp'er are rich they don't care about 10k
     
  17. No one knows that answer to the question?
     
  18. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    used to be the tamer didn't get it and you lost the 600 per item to the sink.

    i dunno if they fixed it or not.
     
  19. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    I didn't say there were NO pets in pvp. I said they were few and far between and in no danger of overrunning pvp.

    I do not think tamers get the gold when pet kills. Not sure how that matters in your discussion of nerfing greaters.

    This topic was the hot topic before greaters were even introduced on prod shards.. it's old, it's dead, and it's stinking up the joint.. .can we just let it rest in peace?
     
  20. Llams Anit

    Llams Anit Guest

    If you die to a "pet" the Tamer does not get the insurance gold.
    If a "pet" kills a Blue player the Tamer does not get the insurance gold
    but will get a count if the Tamer is reported.
    If a "pet" kills a Red player the Tamer does not gain in Justice and does
    not get the insurance gold.
    The Tamer needs to get the kill shot in to get the insurance gold and/or
    the Justice gain.
     
  21. Lord Sir Scott

    Lord Sir Scott Lore Keeper
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    Just returned from Destard, I would have to agrees, the firedeath at the start is quite annoying for a soloist.. i sign this as well... it is a problem as this discourages people from going there.
    Destard used to be a really cool dungon lots of people to help you good gold ect.
    a exciting and non desolte place...
    But now well, it is a cave full of uncontested Dragons of all types.
     
  22. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    You are wrong about this..

    I have a LJ Swords char. with 120 tactics. Someone who is curse or just has a naturally low resist can be hit with a crushing blow from a axe for up to 80+ damage (consecrate weapon to hit lowest). It isnt common (I can only remember maybe 2 people I could do it to), because most people take great care with their armor, and usually I hit someone for around 40.
     
  23. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    one of the specials i believe compares HP to MANA like the way mind blast used to work and i believe it can do a lot of damage.
     
  24. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    No. If the pet takes the kill shot, the tamer does not get the gold. You do get the Justice or the Count, but not the gold.
     
  25. 40 is more in step with the caps for most things. A flamestrike will do around 40, an armor ignore does 35, a bushido crit does also does 35.

    Are you starting to understand the argument now?

    Why, when EA has gone to the trouble to cap PvP spell damage and eliminate honor, capped criticals and armor ignore, basically capped all PvP damage to around 35-40 (except death strike with tracking) do they allow greater dragon damage not only to exceed the cap, but to double it?

    The only thing I can think of is that as they have done so often, they introduced a new PvM element to the game without considering the effects on PvP.

    It is time to fix that.
     
  26. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Yeah, Concussion Blow. That doesnt hurt much unless/until you are low on either mana or stam, then it is vicious. It is what alot of archers use after they have you on foot and running around a bit, tho mace and swords weps also have this special (and I have seen both templates use it .. on my head *ouch*).
     
  27. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I see it like this Fire breath is based on hp so it has its weakness. Hell that what makes it interesting to figure out you're opponents weakness and capitalize it. I wouldn't want EA to do that for me. I'm sure if they try to fix Fire breath it will effect all fire breathing monsters and it will end up effecting the pvm aspect as well. You must of noticed by now they don't fix 1 thing they try to fix everything it has to do with it no matter the consequence.

    If people wanted to fix mongbats to make them a little stronger EA will probably make them able to 1 hit kill greaters by mistake. Fix planting then we will be growing random man eating venus fly traps that not only eat you but you're house too.
     
  28. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Dear Lord pull your sac up.:next:
     
  29. So, what exactly is your issue with reducing or capping the breath damage done by greaters in PvP?

    Are you saying that it just isn't an issue? I can assure you that it is an issue on Siege.

    My point in asking about the gold for insurance kills was risk versus reward. On a production shard, if your pet kills someone in PvP, you don't get any reward i.e. there is no insurance gold.

    On Siege, dead is dead. It doesn't matter if a pet kills you or another player, your body becomes lootable and your stuff is gone.

    So, on Siege, we have exactly the opposite situation from production shards. On prodo shards, there is no reward. On Siege, there is no risk.

    All a tamer has to do is bless a heavy crossbow and carry a few bolts. He doesn't even need armor. The tamer dismounts and "all kills" and between the damage from the bolt, the damage from the fall, and the breath damage you are going to die.

    If by chance, a tamers's pet ever gets in trouble, all he has to do is run away/stealth away, log out and his pet is saved. It is like self rezzes that never run out.

    Let's say by some miracle (or in reality by another greater), you do manage to kill one of those dragons. What is lost? .1 in each skill.

    Risk does not equal reward.

    Your point I think is "What does this have to do with me, I don't play on Siege?"

    That is fair. I think if you PvP in a suit that gives you 150 health, you aren't going to worry as much about taking 70 damage from a greater. And since, there isn't any reward for using one, you aren't likely to see too many.

    Having said that, would it kill you if there were a reduction or cap on their breath damage so that people running around with 100 health can stop being insta killed?

    :)
     
  30. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    The thing is, these specials, including the one from the GD, only hurt that bad when you do not have good resist for one reason or another. Is your suit "corpse proof"? Some people's fire falls well below 60 after a corpse skin or curse. Let's be honest, most people DO NOT have all 70 resists. But most are very careful with their fire because it is the most common spell used.

    I have no problem with the equation. If everyone did the same damage all the time then everyone would be fencers and necro/mages, based on their preference, because the only thing that would matter would be HOW FAST. Instead, we have the option of using a variety of weapons and spells with a variety of speeds and base damages. Sure, most things are capped, but they left a big burden of responsibility on the individual to make sure they had resists that are up to par. AI was capped BECAUSE it ignored the armor, so has no counter to. I have given you my average. You know there are some people I hit a crushing blow on for LESS THAN 30 damage? And yes, some who I hit for well over 50, 60 etc. You know what I tell THOSE people? "You need to get better armor, hon."


    I guess where I might be different is that when I was learning to PvP (admittedly fairly recently - 2 years ago) my GM taught me how to avoid the pet and kill the tamer. He WAS a PvP tamer ... used Cu's or Hiryu's (if you are interested, Hiryu's are worse than Cu's, and GD are prob 3rd on the list due to their slowness and tendency to use lower spells at a slower rate). The only pet I can think of that I never had a chance against was Rune Beetles before they removed Armor Corrupt in PvP. Now? I carry a beetle slayer tali and know how to anticipate the pet.
     
  31. It is sort of pointless to argue this with you. You personally don't have a problem with it where you play while it is a huge issue where I play.

    The dragons are the same on both shards, I'll leave it up to you to figure out the rest.
     
  32. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Now you come to your point. Yes, I can see it being a big issue on Siege. As you say, dead is dead, and your average player does not have godly armor. I honestly have ZERO problem with firebreath being capped in PvP, I never have. What I have an issue with it people misrepresenting the risk. People saying that a GD will firebreath you for 90 when you have 70 fire. That is just not true.

    TBH, I dont know that capping the damage will resolve your issue ON SIEGE. Why? Because the mele off a GD is far worse than its breath, any day. I can definitly see the complaints about bonded pets on Siege ... it ISNT fair to be looking down the nose of something with 130 wrestle/tactics and magery that they can just rez up if it dies.
     
  33. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Cap and range are not exclusive. :) Cap just means the highest of a range.
    I think 60 is about the max for a normal dragon, so making that a hard cap would take away the ability to complain about it.

    But it is all a huge joke anyway.
    A GD cannot catch you if you are running, even on foot unless you lag.
    The 3spells regardless of distance thing has nothing to do with the dragons - it is a development screw up for ALL casting creatures and needs to be fixed.

    So all of the complaints that give details include the commonality that the Tamer uses a bola to put them at a disadvantage.
    Never realizing how stupid that sounds.. since tamers with GDs are ALWAYS dismounted!

    And if they want to claim the tamer can be in mount-speed animal form, it will only prove they are just looking for a reason to cry. Tamers with a GD generally have well over 300 points in taming skills, and to give up another 99 for animal form to get mounts speed ... if you can't kill someone that only has 300 skill points in PvP, get the heck out of Felucca! :p


    I will reiterate my previous comparison.
    My tamer does not have defensive skills, just magery+bard/taming skills... and not enough music+peace to peace a GD.
    I survive fully 50% of tame attempts on WILD GDs without using Honor (since it ran out weeks ago)

    So if someone with 700+ points in offense/defense skills cannot survive against a GD with 50% of that power, they really need to reconsider their playstyle.
     
  34. I'll have to take some screenies for you. I can run through Destard and be hit by firebreath from greaters for 90 anytime I like.

    I have been hit for that much by tamed ones as well and I can assure you that I am wearing armor.

    I don't know how else to explain this fact to you. It isn't something I'm making up and as you have come to realize, your personal testing has been less than perfect.
     
  35. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Now we get a bit more information from you. You play Seige. You have issues with tamer/archer/stealthers. *never mind the issue of how you get all those skills on one character*...

    You say a tamer damages you from a bolt, damages you from a dismount, and on their 3rd offensive move they are able to kill you? Well.. call my silly, but that seems like standard pvp tactics to me. The means are different.. but the method is the same.

    I can sympathize with the difficulty of play on Seige. But you knew and accepted the differences of that ruleset when you went there. Nerfing to make things easier on Seige ALWAYS ends badly for those on prod shards.

    Maybe if you were a little more specific in your posts... or put this thread on a "Seige has issues" forum.. or a "Things we need to change on Seige to make it more like Prod Shards" forum.
     
  36. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    For the exact same reason they don't put those caps on monsters for PvM.
    Because monsters are stupid.

    People love to tout that PvP is the "Advanced" UO, but then cry when they actually have to use their brains.
    A Tamed GD is no smarter than a wild one. They still get stuck on nothing, can't walk around the front of a house, can be distracted into chasing someone/something else, and so on, just like a wild one.

    The tamer only controls Who the dragon's target is, and whether or not it attacks at all.
    Even the ability to force it to Change targets is limited, and requires the tamer be on the same screen at all times to maintain it. During which time the tamer is completely vulnerable.
     

  37. I understand the difference between cap and range. My point (you missed it) was that 60 as a cap is probably still too high since other PvP attacks are capped around 40.

    The exception is deathstrike, which can range from up from forty depending on ones tracking skill.

    I agree with your point about casting range for pets and monsters. It is screwed up. Unfortunately, there has never been any discussion about fixing it. What Jeremy has said is under discussion is pet balancing and that is long overdue.

    This thread and others like it are less about getting change on the radar and more about the nature of the coming change.
     
  38. You don't PvP much do you?

    You can't "distract" pets anymore. They fixed that. I can double click a pet until my mouse breaks, it isn't going to do anything except what the tamer tells it to do.

    Additionally, you can get your pet to attack without even being visible. You tell it to guard you, hide, then double click your target and it will attack while the tamer remains completely hidden.
     
  39. The fact that I play Siege is about as well kept a secret as overpowered dragon breath.

    Let me ask you the question again, you seem to have a hard time answering simple questions but here goes.

    Would a reduction or cap on greater dragon breath damage in PvP only significantly impact your gameplay?

    From your previous posts, I think your answer is no unless you are a PvP tamer and simply trying not to admit it.

    So, if there is no impact in your gameplay, why are you sooooooo opposed to a change that would positively impact the gameplay of an entire shard?

    Look, people on Siege are there for the added risk. I know I am. I don't mind losing my gear when someone earns a kill. I don't consider gimp tactics like blue bushido archer with uncapped crits, or archery deathstrikes, or hidden all kills from greater dragons "earning" it.

    On Siege, we don't mind dieing if we die in a fight. Insta kills are another matter. EA has a history of fixing these things, but they are sloooow about it.

    This is no exception.
     
  40. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Okay, first Eslake - I understand that you are trying to make good points, but the fact is, you DON'T PvP, and PvP IS different. Period. It just is. The damage from the dragon isnt, but the tamer CAN have Taming/Lore/Ninjitsu/Hiding/Wep Skill/Tactics. Smoke bombs guarantee the hide. Or they can have Magery with a mage wep and bolas. Most PvP tamers DO NOT have vet. Think about that.

    Second - Moonglow Merchant, I was not the one who provided the numbers, but my testing was consistent with what was said. The HIGHEST a GD hits firebreath for - tame OR wild - against EXACTLY 70 resist is EXACTLY 60 points. The can and sometimes DO hit mele damage for way the heck harder.

    I tested it for several days. Result was always the same. Period. Tested it in Destard, and in Wind and in my house and with a mouse ...

    Third - you CAN distract a dragon under the new AI. When the "all kill" command is given, the pet goes after the target, but it ALSO goes into auto-guard. Meaning, if someone or something else hits it, it will subsequently attemt to kill BOTH targets, thus switching back and forth.

    Last, you bring up a GREAT point that needs to be fixed! You CAN cause your pet to attack while you are invised/hidden! This is no doubt a gap in the coding, since they changed pet balls to reveal and all that, they obviously do NOT intend for you to be able to have a pet attack while you are invised! You should send that in as a bug report. Everyone should.
     
  41. Ok, I'll ask you the same question then. Would you be opposed to a reduction or cap in breath damage from Greaters for PvP only?

    If your numbers are correct (they aren't in my experience) then is 60 damage versus 70 resist acceptable? A cursed target would be taking 80 damage. I don't even want to think what a corpse skinned target would take.

    So, is 60 damage against 70 resist acceptable when there is only one other attack which can do that (deathstrike) and that is resistable by standing still?

    Obviously, I think it is too high.
     
  42. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    I already SAID I had no issue with it being capped.
    And I ALSO conceded to you that I can see where it would be a serious issue on Siege. You know, due to your less than perfect armor and the fact that there is pet bonding there.

    BTW, corpse skin, last I tested (last week), does not drop your resists any lower than curse does, and curse and corpse skin do not stack AR loss on fire. (Both are still *ouch*)
     
  43. If you are 60 plus in resists, curse drops everything but your physical to 60 (can't remember if resisting spells matters).

    Corpse skin drops your fire and poison by 25.
     
  44. gandolfofaol

    gandolfofaol Guest

    Yes you do :)
     
  45. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    I've consistently said that the damage you experience from firebreath is off the mark. Many others have pointed out the same issue. Are you perhaps carrying opposite slayer type wep? tali? are you cursed? corpsed? is your armor full durability? are you using armor reflect? do you have bugged armor? any and all of these? none of these? using eeo? Are you going up against a top end GD? or one with much lower stats? Are you working against a fully trained GD? or one with much to learn?

    The manner and/or template I play has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about GD's being overpowered. So, respectfully, I choose not to answer. Please stop trying to bait that issue.

    There are some very good points brought up, ie. tamer being hidden. However, these have nothing to do with your claim that GD's are overpowered and need nerfing.

    Since I don't play Seige, I can't honestly comment on what can be done to make things more balanced, same, like regular shards.. nor can I comment on whether things SHOULD be more balanced, same and/or like regular shards on SEIGE. I can however comment on regular production shards. IMHO, based on facts, GD's are NOT overpowered and do not need to be nerfed. So yes, I would indeed be opposed to nerfing, capping and or otherwise tampering with GD's on production shards.
     
  46. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Hmm, perhaps I have more fire resist on my necro than I thought. Because both curse and corpse dropped my fire to 60. Corpse did take a heck of a toll on my poison resist, tho :)
     
  47. I'm not affected by EoO, opposite slayer types are anything else you listed. Also, for your information, durability on armor hasn't affected damage since AOS.

    I'm not trying to bait the issue. But you seem to be the only one in this thread or any other who has any issue at all with a reduction or cap on greater dragon breath damage in PvP only.

    Therefore, I can only conclude that you do indeed understand that breath damage for greaters is overpowered and are using one yourself. Consequently you have no desire to lose your advantage.

    While I understand that, I've never been in favor of preserving imbalances just so that those who choose to exploit them can continue to do so.
     
  48. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    *Sigh* You see, what people have a big issue with is exageration. If you are getting hit for 90 on a FIREBREATH (and you have to be 100% sure that is what it is and no combo - do you see a SINGLE number that is 90 over your head when it hits? Not a combo of numbers, not "I subtracted what I was left with from what I started with and got that" but you actually see the number NINE ZERO over your head) then you have serious armor issues. The fact that you are on SIEGE makes that a viable possibility. But admit it, man!

    You will get a better response from people if you say, "60 damage firebreath against 70 fire resist is imbalanced in PvP and I would like the developers to consider capping it or adjusting it, with other PvP damage caps in mind". Which you have said. But not in your title. In your title you are exagerating, sensationalizing, and OVER state the issue.

    I fear that if they do cap the firebreath damage in PvP you will find out exactly how wrong you have been. It is the MELE attack of a dragon that is your worst danger.
     
  49. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I'll just in on this one late... Didn't read this thread till now, cause this topic is tired and pointless.

    I'm well aware of the argument. What I don't understand is why people keep bringing it up over and over again. The devs have already said they're going to address it. If I were a gambling man, my guess is that the devs won't just nerf tamers, but will actually make them completely irrelevant.

    Either way, the devs have already made it clear that they are working on it and specifically mentioned that GD are one of the pets to be adjusted.

    Further complaining about this topic is just :bdh:
     
  50. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Well for the last 10 years all I do is PvP and I have well over 70Phys and 89 Fire resist on my suit, yet the GD does around 65+ damage to me with Firebreath.

    So how does this fall into your equation?