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Hi PvM Tamers, have you farmed recently? (BAD COMBAT SYSTEM)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by sibble, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    From what I hear these templates got the worst of it: 1 heal to their greater dragon and the all aggro turns to their master.

    Simply put, you cannot throw in this type of change to a combat system that has no aggro tables. There is no level of threat, and it would make no sense whatsoever for every mob around your dragon to suddenly turn on you for 1 heal.

    I do agree with the want to make some kind of threat level towards healers, but this isn't the way to do it. You need aggro tables, threat levels, etc. Like I said, I am happy our dev team wants to update our combat system, but this should not have been published so fast. Needs more testing, more changes. Please revert and move it back to test center!

    Edit: After further testing, the changes are not as drastic as originally suspected. Not sure what caused such experience the first time testing but now the GDragon holds aggro no problem.

    http://stratics.com/community/threa...cently-bad-combat-system.301165/#post-2283766

    http://stratics.com/community/threa...cently-bad-combat-system.301165/#post-2283784
     
    #1 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
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  2. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Hehe, I was hoping the whole changes made to healing "Aggro" would have been reverted by now, guess we have at least until tomorrows server reset.

    btw, if you invis, so you could heal, as soon as you drop your heal on anything that's damage, Every hostile on your screen instantly attacks you.

    This won't work in UO, especially if dexers have to constantly re-flag mobs, just to keep swinging at the target.
     
  3. Gedgerez Tesherd

    Gedgerez Tesherd Journeyman

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    This did seem controversial for a bit until I started playing around with different builds & optimized my strategy & awareness, then proceeded onward to test center. What I found is that there are a multitude of options to negate aggression while healing your pet, or player during combat.

    First I looked into the basics of magery to supply my needs. Adding 45dci onto the suit & picking up a mage weapon seemed important, so I tried it with & without these two additions. While Invisibility, and Protection are easily at my disposal while using gm meditation & a base 10 mana regen on gear I took alot less direct damage with the mage weapon & dci as opposed to not having it with another suit. As soon as I am touched by 1 point of damage i tab my protection hotkey, works like a charm & i can heal & invis myself at will. Luck was rather easy to construct with & without dci, while losing nothing since you can add dci on weapon, shield & use artifacts like armor of fortune, as well as clothing items.

    Secondly I looked into a more tactical approach & altered the taming build to include 100 hiding, 80 stealth, 90 tactics & fencing. As soon as i gain agro, i apply a bandage & hit shadowstrike & can heal & invis myself at will. On a side note I didn't use smoke bombs, but that is also another option with this type of tamer build. Luck on the suit started becoming a problem with the skill items I picked up.

    Then I looked into a more tactical & less evasive approach. Started the initial build with mage weapon to gain 120 passive melee defensive skill with 90 fencing & tactics. What i would do is para blow upon 1 hp contact & can invis at will, but I also noticed the monster once para blown would drop aggression & re-target my pet which was very nice. Also on a side note i made slayer weapons to assist in damage with each monster type in Shame which helped speed things up. Luck became a problem adding to the suit with skill build items.

    Lastly I tested using peacemaking and discord separately to the shadowstrike tamer skill build (+skill on armor/jewelry). There's plenty of items to work with for this, shadow dancer leggings, ring, bracelet, mark of travesty, dread pirate hat, capt johns hat, elven craftable sleeves with bardic skill, & lastly community collection talismans for taming or bardic skill (taming talisman will offer more points toward the build). I merely tested discord to get a boost in damage while still shadowstriking aggression off after bandaging. Luck became impossible to fit in with build & i wouldn't suggest it for casual daily play outside the use of luck statue timer, or lucky coin toss.

    I never really ran into problems with any test, and as you can see there are many methods to avoid full time agro gain. I would say the simplest method for me was to just add on 45dci to the suit & use a mage weapon with a pure tamer 120 skill build with a nice Protection hotkey readily available & a stack of confusion blast potions when things get out of hand. Happy hunting.
     
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  4. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    If you are required to add multiple extra skills into your template... simply to not die when healing your pet... then this was a titanically terrible change.
     
  5. xCatax

    xCatax Sage

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    Some people like to change difficult, it makes the appearance of new templates along with new ways to play and at the end get fun.
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Ok, so I took a cu then a GD out to hunt sphynx to test healing. Regardless of whether I cast a heal or vet, it simply makes the sphynx flag as aggro to me. I don't get attacked. Obviously if I step right up to it then I will be wrestling said sphynx but as long as the pet is between me and the sphynx I'm perfectly safe.

    So I'm not seeing any cause for panic.

    What exactly are you guys fighting that is causing them to re-target onto you fully? Because it feels like it must only happen under certain circumstances and it would be helpful if we could figure out what they are.

    Wenchy
     
  7. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    And some don't.... just because 'some' do is a poor reason to push unannounced and gameplay changing systems on people.

    That this (as far as I know totally unasked for) change was just dropped on everyone, while so many other things remain bugged, unintuitive and clunky, leaves me convinced that at the least the sense of priorities for the Dev team (and probably real awareness of how we actually play the game) is woefully adrift from what we would hope.

    Of course, they might have some really good reasons for this - but on based past history we'll probably never know. Stuff like this is almost never discussed, reasoned through or explained - just published and left to be argued over, and maybe corrected, later.
     
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  8. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Sphynx is my usual GD training target because of it's passive alignment, but it's possible that in itself is part of what's happening - I can't test it at the moment, but have you tried taking your against an aggressive opponent, and seeing if that then both retargets and moves on to you?
     
  9. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Good point :) I just headed into Blood to try some of the more angry spawn... para blood ele behaved just like the sphynx - it flagged grey but didn't shift target onto me fully.

    I'm wondering it it might only happen with the really higher end mobs but that's just a guess. More testing required methinks.

    Wenchy
     
  10. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I'm in no way anti change. The change just needs to make sense. Taming was already falling behind on the food chain of pvm templates, now a change that at best makes hunting annoying, and at worst requires a whole template rework is just going to make things worse and make people angry.

    And all for what? Was healing REALLY such a huge deal? As someone else said this game has no "threat" system, so doing stuff like this that fundamentally changes the flow of play that we have had the last 15 years for no foreseeable benefit on the whole (out of nowhere as well) is simply stupid.

    The odd person may get a kick out of adaptation for adaptation sake, but I think that that person is going to be in the VAST minority.
     
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  11. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I've not been in game much the last couple of days but my hubby just did a run against some balrons in Blood dungeon, including a couple of paragons. Yes they targetted him, but as long as he kept the pet between him and the bally it didn't hit him. His assessment was he just needed to be alert.
     
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  12. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    From what my guildie tells me...
    Goto Covetous LVL 3 and have more then 1 mob attacking your GD
    1 GH on your GD and everything that is attacking it will turn to you.

    Personally I have a tamer, but I don't use it. I am just an avid gamer that knows such a change to a game that isn't capable of keeping that change balanced, is going to do more harm then good.
     
    #12 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
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  13. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    And how did he do on Cov 3 or Shame 5... You know we're the pet often ends up completely surrounded?

    This will make Vet healing even less appealing as a skill. Horrible change, and it screams that our Dev team was too inept or lazy to find a proper fix to giving healers credit.
     
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  14. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I believe the change was made to improve looting rights for healers. The publish notes say:

    So far I haven't experienced too many problems hunting solo with my tamer either on Origin or on Siege since this change went in. The only monster that really smacked my tamer soundly when it flagged to her because of pet-healing was an ancient wyrm on Origin, and maybe that's as it should be. However, I also haven't tried going up against anything that is super-nasty. I'm kind of expecting that in most cases, it will be sufficient to just not stand right on top of a monster that is flagged to the tamer and continue to manage attacks as conservatively as possible as far as number of monsters allowed to be attacking the pet at one time and thus flagging to the tamer (i.e., avoiding situations where there are so many things attacking the pet at once that some of them that can't reach it eventually turn their real ire on the tamer they flagged to previously).

    Below are some questions I posted last Thursday (and one new one) that I'm still wondering about and that I expect will be on the minds of at least a few people in situations where they are attacking monsters at something like an EM event or a peerless instance or champ spawn where looting rights are most likely of utmost concern:

    • How are looting rights affected when a monster stops flagging to your tamer? I have noticed that this sometimes happens when there are multiple monsters hitting my pet and it is taking him too long to dispatch something because it is killing another monster.
    • What happens to looting rights if a monster flags to your tamer because it is damaging your pet and you have healed the pet, however your pet never has a chance to damage that flagged monster before something/someone else kills it? Will the fact that the mob was flagged to my tamer before being killed affect the actual killer's looting rights?
    • What is the effect on looting rights when the monster never flags at all on my tamer, even though the tamer has been healing damage to the pet either with bandages or with healing spells? I found last week on Origin that there were several monsters that never flagged at all, no matter how many of them the pet killed and even if I really dragged out the killing process and made sure the pet was taking more damage than usual.
    • What happens to my tamer's looting rights if my pet is attacker #2 or #3 or #4 on a monster and is not taking any visible damage (pet #1 or some other tank is getting the brunt of the damage), but I am still seeing numbers to indicate my pet is still causing damage? My tamer may not need to heal at all and there may be sufficient heals being thrown on pet #1 or the other tank so that my tamer has no opportunity at all to be doing any kind of healing with respect to damage being caused by the big, ugly monster. Theoretically speaking, will my tamer get ANY looting rights at all in this situation (assuming my tamer isn't trying to cause damage of her own in some way, e.g., via spell casting on the monster), or will all the looting rights go only to characters that have flagged because they were healing? Some tamers have limited mana pools because of their templates, so spell casting to cause sufficient damage to get looting rights when their pet requires no healing may make them see no point in participating in situations like this if pet damage (even if substantial), and their limited spell-casting damage are insufficient to gain any looting rights because no healing was required. A template change is probably in order for them to participate in situations like this, but suggestions on what would work to their benefit (i.e., all the factors considered for looting rights) would be helpful.
    My guess is that this change may be just a preliminary step in a process of making other changes to PvM hunting that might include such things as no more gold on monster corpses, changes to the party system, making some monsters harder-hitting than they are currently, etc. As such, I would expect that there will be some fine-tuning that will happen along the way. I just hope people will have patience with the process and that the developers and programmers will take the time along the way to explain what they are thinking and what the ultimate goal is.
    I think most of us understand that the dev team is very small at this point and can only work on the most critical of changes and additions to the game. So when something like this change is thrown into the game with only the barest of explanations (see quotation above) and no interaction at all from the devs during the real "testing" phase when people are trying to ask questions to confirm if the change is working as it should be, of course some people will become disgruntled and disenchanted. The cure for that is to start doing some communicating and explain where you're headed with the changes!
     
  15. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Minimal feedback was given to developers, I agree. With that being said this was on test center for what, a week? It should have been there for a month.
     
    #15 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  16. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Go out with group of archers/casters new tactic on a tamer with a 4 slot or less tame. That way the tamer can have a ride if they can't fly. Have pet on guard and hotkey heal spell on pet. The Tamer is the key to make this work. Gotta run around in a circle around the archers/casters. Archer tamer with moving shot weapon and you have a party.
     
    #16 Warpig Inc, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  17. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    A week? It was on test for 1 day!!!!

    Want to know why? Second quarter financial statements are coming up... Gotta get the influx of revenue from the theme pack to the income statement so they pushed it out with no real testing at all. Who cares about the actual players... they have a business to run.
     
  18. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Yea it was only a couple days, not even a week.
     
  19. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    A tamer should not be able to say all kill once and then basically fall asleep right next to the monster while his pet does all the damage.

    Sounds like the change may have gone a bit too far but its a good start imo.

    All kill + one invis = mega loot is a bad equation
     
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  20. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Uh...it was on Test Center for a few hours before it was pushed to Origin and Izumo. A handful of us asked questions last week about this change with respect to tamers and dexxers. But, as usual, very very few people seem to have been motivated enough to go test things themselves and to then turn around and ask questions or raise sufficient ruckus to cause the devs/programmers to provide any kind of explanation and/or to halt pushing the change to other shards.

    More people need to get involved in the testing phase and not be afraid to ask questions at that point. It's pointless and silly to rely on the same few people to do the testing for you and to provide feedback. "Getting involved" may not stop the changes from going through, but a tidal wave of questions during the testing phase surely might bring Kyronix and Bleak out of the woodwork!! :) They might be tired of answering questions from the usual suspects and want to see a few new people asking intelligent questions during the testing stage....

    (I miss Cetric.)
     
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  21. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Tina raises a very good point.

    99% of the people screaming about new changes never once bothered to test anything
     
  22. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    So I don't have the time and don't really care to spend the time being the test team for UO - but I will take 30 seconds to type out my test cases for healing :

    1 - If healing your pet helps you get looting rights on everything it is fighting - does it matter if your heal is successful or not or does it still behave the same if you try to bandy with 0 vet?
    2 - If healing A pet helps give you rights - what happens if you heal a friends Greater Dragon. Do you get rights?
    3 - See 1 and 2. What if I have no vet? Can I just attempt to throw bandies on fighting pets as a dexer and get rights to everything the GD is fighting?

    Those would be interesting things I'd like to see tested for this change.........
     
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  23. Aroma

    Aroma Journeyman
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    WooHooo way to go Kill my favorite template. Thank you devs for actually forcing me to quit UO. More improved system my A$$ but hey if EA said to kill UO then this might work.
     
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  24. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Change for the sake of change is never the correct choice.
     
  25. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    First and for most I would like to set the record straight on the following: "Healing now applies aggression towards targets aggressors. Example: Warrior A is fighting Mob B. Healer C heals Warrior A and now has aggressed Mob B. (Does not apply in PvP)". This does not mean that if Tamer A's pet is fighting Mob B and Tamer A heals the pet, Mob B will automatically switch targets to Tamer A. This change only adds healers to the mobs possible target list. In terms of the mob selecting what target to attack, the mobs AI core will always attack the closest visible possible target unless other AI forces re-targeting which is not the norm for example Exodus. The purpose for this change is to help address the long standing issue in which healers were not getting looting rights and improve mob AI.
     
    #25 Bleak, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  26. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Thank you for clarification.

    I am testing in Cove 3 with a friend that has a GDragon, it's not bad at all with mage healing. I have yet to test veterinary.

    Edit: Using vet is fine too.
     
    #26 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  27. Aroma

    Aroma Journeyman
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    No Mob C targets tamer while pet is still engaging B tamer is then instant OoOoO Just because of a Band-Aid?
     
  28. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Aroma, have you tried the new changes out? Some of us are going around with our tamers without any problems. I'm not doing anything special and my tamer hasn't been ganked by spawn once. So please, test it first if you haven't. We need more data about how this is affecting taming before anyone quits.

    Right now some tamers seem to just have spawn flag and turn grey to them without attacking while others seem to be saying the spawn is attacking them. We need to figure out when one situation happens and when the other does. It's impossible to say how feasible the changes are when we don't fully understand their impact on the tamers.

    Wenchy
     
  29. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Thanks for the clarification, Bleak. Can you tell us if this publish also made any changes with regard to how much weight healing has for purposes of getting looting rights? Or has whatever basic formula you use for that stayed the same and you're just making sure healing efforts are better acknowledged? And what about the questions Theo brought up about failed healing/vet attempts...do you get any credit for those?

    And one more question: For the Classic Client, will this programming eventually make it possible for us to see a difference in the damage numbers when fighting, especially with pets, so eventually we'll be able to see numbers in different colors for damage done vs. damage taken?
     
    #29 Tina Small, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  30. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I suspect that the latter case when spawn is attacking may be the monsters that Bleak mentioned which have a different AI that causes them to change targets. Maybe we can develop a list of them, or better yet, Bleak can give us some hints!

    Also, I have long suspected that monsters that have flagged on your pet but can't reach it for some reason (terrain issues or just too many monsters already surrounding the pet) start to look for another viable target after a certain period of time and this change makes them especially prone to now going after the tamer that's healing the mob they can't reach.

    It may be that tamers who've been used to just plunging into a crowd of spawn, invizzing, and only popping out to slap on a bandage now and then or standing off at a distance and healing with spells may have have to learn new techniques for managing a crowd of spawn and avoid situations where the pet is going to get more than x number of monsters attacking it simultaneously. Don't know what the magic number is for that purpose, but I would imagine it's something like 6 or 7. In other words, perhaps if you get 7 or more monsters crowding your pet, some of those monsters are likely to be not damaging your pet and their AI is going to make them start looking for other close targets and ones they are already flagged to will be at the top of the list of possible targets.
     
  31. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    The looting right scale pre-publish 82 was split evenly between the damage, healing, and damage received, now we have scaled up damage to count more which allows results to be more like pre-publish 74. These publish corrected issues where in some cases healing was not acknowledged. As for the Classic Client that would require more changes on the server and client but is possible.

    1. The heal must be successful.
    2. Depends on how much you heal.
    3. See 1 and 2.
     
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  32. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    If you're fighting something where all you have to do is say "all kill" and invis yourself, then by definition, you're not healing your pet.

    This thread is about healing pets.

    I think you may have become disoriented and posted in the wrong thread.
     
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  33. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Many thanks for your various efforts in this thread to clarify the issue.

    May I suggest that you consider not allowing healing of damage on pets or tanking by pets to count at all for purposes of looting rights, and allow only pet damage to count.

    To me, getting credit for healing one's pet is too much like getting credit for repairing your weapon and shield. A pet essentially is a really powerful weapon/shield combination and, I argue, that's not the same as healing another player.

    -Galen's player
     
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  34. xCatax

    xCatax Sage

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    Stop complaining and fix ur tamer , im soloing coventus lvl4 since first day :whip:
     
  35. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Thanks again for clarification, Bleak.

    Don't know about other folks, but I would be pretty tickled if I could finally be able to tell for sure when using the Classic Client which numbers flying up the screen from a fight involving pets are for damage received vs. damage given. It's certainly not a top priority for me, but would definitely be a much appreciated change.

    Also, is there any chance you can give us some hints on which monsters have an AI which makes them more prone to switching targets? And is that an AI feature that you anticipate adding to many monsters that don't already have it?
     
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  36. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I was out doing my usual farming last night. I wasn't aware of this change, and I didn't actually notice any difference. Mind you I was only on my second target when the afk script farming red I had killed and relieved of his valuables found me and tried to get his loot back... :) But I had fought a few mobs before getting to my favourite place and hadn't noticed any difference with them either.
     
  37. Picus at the office

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    Cool story dude.
     
  38. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    That makes the reported experiences of tamers mentioned earlier much more understandable. Is there anything else in the works for amending targetting, though - an improvement to the monster AI is a massive job, but it would be good and that could be a useful part of it....
     
  39. Zeke

    Zeke Lore Keeper
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    Bleak, the change made has now affected melee fighters as well. I was fighting Mob A, Mob B (across the room) aggro'd me and I stopped fighting Mob A. Is this intended? I am now constantly hitting my attack macro to keep attacking the mob I was attacking so I wouldn't stand there with my thumb up my bum. Changes like this need to be tested not a day before publishing it to Origin (on a Friday) then all shards on Monday. There was basically no chance for us to test and report back. I am not having any issues with my tamer at all, but now my Sampire and Thrower have to constantly hit an attack macro whenever there is more than one mob anywhere in the area.
     
  40. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I have seen zero change.. :/

    Healing my pets with mageey haven't had a MOB aggro on me at all for that matter..maybe I'm doing something wrong I don't know..
     
  41. pumpkin_escobar

    pumpkin_escobar Journeyman

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    We have been carrying this game long enough, screw this change!
     
  42. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    I'm currently in Cove 3 watching a tamer try and vet her pet and she's constantly getting attacked to the point where I had to continuously heal her.

    I did the same thing this morning, I watched another friend use his pet in Cove 3 and he vet it, he wasn't getting attacked. Worst that would happen, one of the mobs would switch to him, smack him, then go back to his pet.

    Any insight?
     
    #42 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    This is a legit discussion. There's more to this issue than just tamers. And while I've noticed little if any difference, I don't participate in high end pvm very often, so perhaps some are noticing differences there.
     
  44. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Ok, what critters is she fighting, with what pet and how is she healing? Cast heals or vet?

    Is she possibly right up beside the spawn or has she positioned herself so her pet is always between her and the spawn? As in it can't physically melee her. Is she the nearest target for some of the spawn even if it's attacking her pet? So that when the aggro code kicks in the monster is possibly seeing her as the nearest target or her pet. That kinda thing.

    Sorry for all the questions, but it's useful to know what was different between this female tamer and your friend.Then we can hopefully figure out why the spawn behaved differently with two tamers.

    I can feel a coach trip to Cove 3 coming on lol.

    Wenchy
     
  45. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I think they need to make a correction to make this change NOT affect tamers or at least not as much as it does now. Otherwise, this will make it impossible for tamers to hunt in a lot of places....

    Not good, IMHO.
     
  46. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    If this hurts my tamer when she has a few critters on her from a t map for just healing her dragon ..... heads will roll.
    Who's big idea was it for this???
    You Best hide.....
     
  47. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    This is a place where there is 4 or more monsters on your pet at once, and she's using vet. So basically it is impossible for her to stand next to her pet to bandage it without also standing next to a monster. From what Bleak has said, healing your pet while standing next to a monster would make the monster attack the tamer =(

    Vet may have to be an exception to the rule IMO, unless another solution can be found. I'm not a tamer but if I were working harder dungeons with multiple monsters on my pet, I would have a really hard time trying to bandage it.
     
    #47 sibble, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  48. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Hmm, let me click my 13th Anniversary Fruit Basket while I think that one over. What's this? A message? "Sometimes it takes more than skill, 'all kill' " - Bleak.
    Nope, no Idea who could have dreamt up these changes.
     
    sibble and CovenantX like this.
  49. Aroma

    Aroma Journeyman
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    Wait you mean ever since I started playing UO, My main character tamer has not been getting full looting rights to my solo kills??? This includes artie drops??

    Oh yes higher end monsters are a night mare now with vetting don't think so try a corgul.
     
  50. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    I too am outraged that the devs tried to improve monster AI so that they no longer attack my pet mindlessly and ignore me completely. Why should they not attack my hulking great dragon and try to kill the annoying little healer instead? Now that I can't play my tamer semi-AFK any more I'll definitely be closing my account :(
     
    Daelomin likes this.
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