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Hide Stealth And Smoke bombs

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Omnius, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    This is entirely too overpowered... Basically it's impossible to kill one of these people 1v1 if they don't WANT to die. It's like a 1 in a billion shot of tracking them with JoAT. AoE's and fields simply don't reveal very much. By the time you can cast a second time they're stealthed and long gone anyway. Basically, if you play a ninja and aren't the worst player ever, you never die and it's lame as hell.
     
  2. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Tracking and detect hidden should work.
    Area spells too and explosion pots?
     
  3. SevenFaith

    SevenFaith Lore Master
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    conflag asap.
     
  4. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    There are plenty of ways to reveal. Conflags, detect hidden, just moving around randomly as an elf hoping they move within 1 tile of you, poison strike from necro, using hit area on a weapon, earthquake, meteor swarm, super nova pots. My personal favorite, I have 60ish weaving on a couple of my mages and if I have a level 6 circle, thunderstorm reveals them nearly every time and has a wicked range.

    Diversify your templates.
     
  5. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    I'm rarely tempted to post "WAHHHHHHH" but I will refrain cause I'm not like that.

    Smoke bomb takes 10 mana. Try mana vamping the stealther. With so many spec points dedicated to hiding, stealth, and ninja, very few have resist. No mana = no smoke bomb. And if they specced in resist, well thats 4 skill lines they dedicated to not being able to kill someone. I guess you just miss out on killing a squishy target don't you.

    And if it's one in a billion tracking them with JOAT, try actually... speccing in tracking? Christ it's one in a billion my mage will melee solo slasher. I guess I should ask for a slasher nerf.

    :p
     
  6. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    You don't say... having 30 skill in something doesn't work as well as having mastered, grandmastered, or legendaried the skill?

    *gasp*

    No offense, but if JoaT was able to accurately counter well developed skills, there'd be something seriously wrong there.
     
  7. Bardie

    Bardie Lore Keeper
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    so they invested what easily 200+ skill points (hiding, stealth and ninja, me personally have invested 340) and your complaining its too hard? Like the others above me, either pick up another skill oooor just learn to outsmart dem meanies...
     
  8. Jeff.

    Jeff. Guest

    wow this is really depressing. Look at everyone defending the "I'm too ***** to play a real character template." Smoke bombs should have never been brought into the game and should have been fixed a long time ago. Basically if you are fighting a stealther with smoke bombs, to actually kill them 1v1 you have to be playing a mage to mana vamp. As well as having to be extremely quick with keeping them vamped between offensive spells so that they don't smoke bomb and ***** away.
     
  9. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    What people defending the current state of hiding and stealth fail to say, is that when Samurai Empire came out the following buffs to hiding and stealth came out. Players could now insta stealth after hiding(there was a 10 second or so delay), stealth could now be used at mounted walking speed(animal form) skill points in detect and tracking were now needed to actualy track and detect a stealther(JOAT track is completely luck to get a track in before the stealther stealths off), a longer delay for players with the actual detect skill was put in(from 2 seconds or so to almost 10 seconds?) auto defend was taken out for hidden players that are hit by area effect making area effect a complete dice roll when it comes to revealing a player. The magery reveal spell no longer works on a player with hiding. Smoke bombs were added to the game altho invis items were removed(pretty much a wash).

    Thats a lot of buffs to hiding and stealth and a lot of nerfs to combat it. Ive always felt it shouldnt be tuff to sneak up on someone(think thieves and assassins) but escaping after doing a dastardly deed is way too easy now.The way the game is any stealther that knows anything about the system is rarely going to die if they are intent on not dieing. And to say a detect and tracking character has an even fight vs a stealther is being ridiculous. Detect and tracking dont give a single adavantage to combat like stealth and ninja do(smokebombs,ninja belts,deathstrike,animal forms,mana reduction etc)
     
  10. Phayde

    Phayde Adventurer
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    I'm not sure why a stealth template isn't a "real" template, but maybe you should figure out how to defeat it, and if you can't figure out a way to do so, might I suggest this is part of game balance: That not every template will be able to easily defeat every other template?
     
  11. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    Its not a matter of comeing up with a template to beat it, its a matter of hiding templates just adding to the whole rocks scissors papers style of pvp that uo has become.
     
  12. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    considering 1v1 a stealther should never die to another template, phayde, I'm inclined to question your knowledge of dealing with stealthers.

    I also enjoy how everyone claims they put huge skill investments into stealth and hide and ninja when stealth on items is so prolific. The advantages of stealth/hide/ninjitsu are infinitely more valuable than getting 200 skill points in detect/tracking(skills that don't have items to help them)..

    Basically you get more bang for your buck from hiding stealth and ninjitsu than 200 hard skill that must be invested to even have a remote chance of using those skills to any real effect on stealthers.
     
  13. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    It's not a "real" template because no stealther will ever willingly come out and try to 1v1 someone (at least one that doesn't want to die). It is simply a support template and cannot stand on its own.
     
  14. CannabisKing

    CannabisKing Guest

    I would not agree with EMO but on this , He and many others are right. Ive played a stealth-deathstriker and o yeah its fun, but not my cup of tea.

    Like EMO pointed out here "It's not a "real" template because no stealther will ever willingly come out and try to 1v1 someone (at least one that doesn't want to die)." After been trashed talked to bout playing a stealther I took my chances when I tought they would be in my favor to try and 1v1 ANYONE at the time. Sometimes it worked but mostly when they knew what the temp was they would take the 1st deathstrike, wait, ran off screen and then come back to para vamp spam till they had others to clean it up.
    Now ya said it is over powered. Naw not even close. Many ways to deal with them. Man I can recall EMO and the guys hitting me with purge and sleep, then para spammmmmmed....... Just cuz ya haven a hella time with wut it is doesnt mean others are haven the same hella time. Maybe ya should spend a lil LS time and see how some really good mages deal with them. It might just open your eyes. O NO did I just say that? MAGES? (hint,hint)......
     
  15. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    LOL You two need to get together and please let the rest of UO know what templates we should be playing. I am sure everybody would love to know what a "real" template is. :sad2::sad3::sad4::drama::lame:
     
  16. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    For reference, Emo here actually trained up a stealth archer for the reasoning of something like

    " Stealth and Smoke Bombs are So OP Vs Mages.. " I think were his words.. The Char is/was named Yew made me do it
     
  17. Quenchant

    Quenchant Seasoned Veteran
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    Just a different way to play the game....

    Someone want to beat someone 1 on 1. Usually means he is an offensive based char. He gets his satisfaction from killing other players, thereby assuming he is better or best player

    The other wants to hide, stealth and smoke bomb, a defensive player. He gets his satisfaction from not getting killed and deriving an offensive player his joy / bragging rights.

    Should the rules be changed so a defensive char can have less satisfaction playing the game than an offensive char ... NO.

    If you want to deal with them peskie smoke bombers; adapt.

    Q
     
  18. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    I'm not sure whether the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about is the problem with this post or the fact that you make the point that stealthers only value is to deprive other players of joy.

    Basically, 1v1. A Stealther should never die. NEVER. If you're a stealther and die 1v1. You are the worst player in UO. If you're a stealther and die 2v1. You suck badly. If you're a stealther and die 3v1. You're bad. If you died 4v1, the question is, how did you get yourself killed?

    a competent and properly geared stealther is currently near impossible to kill. It's tremendously easy to make, Gear that complements the templates are all over the place and the skills you need are very complimentary towards a large number of templates that are still capable of doing large amounts of damage. I fail to see the down side of playing a stealther. It's basically a template that says, if I can't kill you, there is no satisfying way to beat me because I will simply escape 99.9999999% of the time.
     
  19. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Yes.. if the stealther is only trying to stay alive. There are many times I'll fight 3 or 4 v 1 on a stealther. I'll get 1/2 life but have someone redlined and will pop evasion and go for the final AI...

    That is just an arbitrary example, but anyone on a stealther who is just trying to stay alive is impossible to kill. But they also aren't a threat..
     
  20. i like my stealthy ninja. can't kill competent pvp players worth a damn 1v1, but can annoy them with impunity to no end. shadow jump does wonders.
     
  21. Of course, the Stealther's joy is learning to survive in PvP and deprive you the joy of killing him. But you are saying the only joy that counts is yours.

    Got it!
     
  22. cdavbar

    cdavbar Lore Master
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    Quick fix, become a trammie OR use some of the examples posted above to combat it OR IF YOU CANT BEAT EM JOIN EM!

    Hmm you mean I too can make a stealther???? I didnt realize that was a skill I could raise too?!?!
     
  23. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    It seems as if I have fans everywhere I go :hahaha:
     
  24. CannabisKing

    CannabisKing Guest

    Give it a rest EMO, :grouphug:
     
  25. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    I know I'm a pretty important figure, but you don't always have to capitalize every letter of my name...
     
  26. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

  27. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    I think the universal agreement is that a stealthers value is to be annoying and impossible to kill. I love how the people playing stealthers are all trying to play up the ways to combat them while knowing how futile those tactics are in any thing other than a gank situation against them
     
  28. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    i love how you ignore the facts of how many ways there are to combat stealthers and instead try to sensationalize the situation as if wild exaggerations, besides making you look woefully inept, would be of value

    :bdh:
     
  29. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    You've made 1 response that was mildly useful to the conversation and it essentially hinged upon the stealther being absolutely awful. I'm tempted to question whether or not you play a real template because you're so heavily invested in protecting stealthers.
     
  30. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    This.
     
  31. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    Well then so is griefing, scripting, speedhacking, exploiting, and just about anything else you can come up with. Just different ways to play the game. :thumbup1:
     
  32. Except stealthing and smoke bombs are legal and within the game design and Terms of Service - your play styles aren't.
     
  33. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    This thread is nothing but whinning from a couple of people that think everybody should be playing only templates that they think is a "real" tempalets. This is a sandbox game and anybody can play any template they want to no matter what you may think about it. Get a life and play the game.

    IB-->S&R or better yet IBTL
     
  34. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Sad that the only real responses that are against the substantive content of the thread are without substance...
     
  35. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Here is your substance. UO is a sandbox and all templates are real templates. Just because you don't think it is real means nothing. If you don't like it leave.
     
  36. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    This.
     
  37. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Agree as well.

    Just as tamers use pets with their skills, others use hiding/stealth in their template, others use parry and weapons, some use magery and necromancy, others use mysticism with their template, etc. It's called variety. This is a sandbox game. Not everyone likes to play the same template as everyone else. Some like the sneaky templates, some like the magical template, some like the warrior or the tamer. Others of course mix it up a bit. Play to your own liking.

    I see real PvPers out there who manage to catch stealthers with ease so clearly this isn't a big concern for every PvPer out there. Maybe it's because they spend their time finding ways to catch them instead of complaining about it.
     
  38. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    So stealthing doesn't need to be toned down because it's a play style? That's not really an argument. When something is over powered, it's usually bad for the game and for all play styles. Hiding and stealth have received entirely too much love, some of it needs to be toned down to make the game less lame.
     
  39. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Wrong.
     
  40. HAHA... I had to read this twice to make sure it wasn't all sarcasm. You're serious? Overpowered??

    I've used stealth and hiding since the very first day it was available. It was nerfed almost immediately and made so that anyone or any PC would reveal you within 2 full screens of your location, making it absolutely worthless. It took a long, long time before that was corrected to where people started using it again. Stealth and Hiding haven't changed in several years, not so much "love" as you would want others to believe.

    Your original complaint is that you can't use JOAT Tracking, equivalent to 20 free skill points, to overcome 200 skill points in hiding and stealth skill. That's just ludicrous. That would be like expecting 20 JOAT magery to stop a dexxer or archer.

    You are complaining because you can't kill someone, but they don't have enough firepower to kill you. I don't see that as being overpowered.
     
  41. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    TRUTH
     
  42. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    That is exactly it...every template should have some sort of downside that leaves them vulnerable to a specific tactic. Now let me be very clear...IN THE RIGHT HANDS you cannot, and should not ever die on a stealther with the correct suit/skills/and PvP ability unless facing extremely slim odds (i.e. 10 to 1). This is why stealthers needs to be adjusted.
     
  43. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    QFT..... This guy hits the nail on the head.
     
  44. The DOWNSIDE of a stealther is that you should never die to this type of character, "with the correct suit/skills/and PvP ability unless facing extremely slim odds." It is underpowered in PvP. This is why stealthers don't need to be adjusted.
     
  45. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    There is a downside. You drop approx 200 skill points into hiding/stealth that could be helping you in combat and not being able to kill people.

    Of course, any template in the right hands can also catch stealthers or make them unable to go back into hiding with the options available. A good player with detect hidden alone is any stealthers worst nightmare.
     
  46. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    on top of being able to hide by the hiding skill, smoke bombs I also have 120 in a weapon skill in order to use shadow strike also, once I am hidden good luck finding me and if you manage to reveal me by walking next to me and i move a step, shadow strike is cued so i am back hidden in a instant. When i do steal a scroll, or item that i can take, I don't need the 8 seconds to rehide for the stealth off and reap my rewards of ill gotten goods, shadow strike the person i stole from, go to a special spot unflag and i'm out.

    Good Luck finding me, that is unless i want to be found
     
  47. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Thats the thing. You don't really even need to drop tons of skill into stealth. The massive amount if items with boosts to stealth are more than enough. to justify toning down stealthers.
     
  48. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Oh yeah, sure, use all those boost items and sacrifice good armor and necessary PvP boosts making them even worse for combat. Then you have a weak harmless stealther that you can't seem to kill and that can't kill you.
     
  49. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    My stealther:

    2 120 weapon skills
    120 tactics
    120 ninjitsu
    120 resist
    100 stealth (120 if I purchased investigator replica)
    100 hiding

    45 hit chance (without jewels)
    20 hit point increase
    34 mana increase
    37 lower mana cost
    7 mana regen
    18 dex bonus
    50 enhance potions
    68 damage increase (no weapon)

    Resists: 70/70/70/66/75
    Stats: 116 hp/126 dex/110 mana (without pots)

    830 possible skill points (with +10 robe +20 cloak)

    60 skill points on jewels

    Seems to be a pretty good PvP suit to me. I don't think you will call him harmless when your entire guild is on foot within 10 seconds.
     
  50. A Bad Player

    A Bad Player Guest

    Its amazing how many popshotting stealthers are on point leaderboards for factions.

    Sure theres investing 200 skill points to try and find a stealther (oh lest we forget not being able to purge them out of animal form anymore, so they get to just straight run), or using thunderstorm and other area spells (see can just straight run to get another hide off), they have ample skill increase items as Omnius said (now most of them run resist), if they don't have resist then be my guest and mana vamp them because OMG it takes 10mana to smoke bomb (try doing ANY offense on them before they can regen 10 mana). So as has been stated before no stealther should die 1v1or 2v1. Consider it takes at least two mages to keep a stealther vamped or para'd, and stealthers have every opportunity at their leisure to either run or take a kill shot. All this not even taking into account massive blues guilds (see great lakes) that will field double numbers and have ONE faction stealther purely to popshot. Good luck finding the needle in the haystack.