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How long will Gargoyles be "shafted"

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Nystul, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Nystul

    Nystul Lore Master
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    They can't use ANY of the existing "useful" artifacts, rewards, faction items etc. w/ the exception of what... jewels?

    Is that ever going to change, or is their whole new race going to be a complete failure? (That's right... a failure! A big FAT failure!!!)

    Would be nice to be able to alter things like community collection glasses into earings, rune beetle carapace into gargoyle armor, etc.
     
  2. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    I agree.

    While I've enjoyed the Halloween event and am willing to give them a pass for now, I hope we don't have to wait until after Christmas.
     
  3. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I think they were so afraid to overpower gargoyles that they underpowered them instead.
     
  4. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    YEA I WANT MY DAMN CARAPACE BACK!:fight:
     
  5. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    Hey chicken little the sky is falling. :) lol
     
  6. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Well, allowing altering arties would be good. However guys, I wonder how many people realized that gargoyle suits are inherently more powerful than human/elves.

    They WOULD be overpowered if they could use every arty in the game and fill the rest with more powerful pieces than human/elves.
     
  7. Cerwin Vega

    Cerwin Vega Lore Keeper
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    I dont think all races should be able to use the same armor. You have to compromise... If you like to be able to fly and not use a mount then you might have to deal with not having as godly a suit that your human might wear. If all races could use the same items then when someone figures out how to set up a char to do something everyones gonna buy all the same armor and do the same thing... not much variety. I dont know how you feel about imbuing but im sure you could probley make a nice suit, i guess if you pvp maybe the duribilty would be a problem. Im sure ill probley get chewed to hell for post such an opinion but will see.
     
  8. Harb

    Harb Guest

    In terms of the proverbial nail being struck on the head, Flutter is on target above, they're underpowered due to a concious effort to ensure they weren't released "overpowered." In my mind, that's looking backward opposed to forward, so from an analytical perspective I have concern with the mindset, but in all honesty, do understand it and in terms of the "eaches" won't criticize the collective effort. The part most in need of a fix is throwing, lets face it, how many folks have you seen playing bladeweavers. Wholesale rejection. Dev also seems to be struggling with the right balance for imbuing, note the recent change to relic frags, something frankly I wish they hadn't done, but as above, it's not that hard to see what they're struggling with.

    As to the topic at hand, altering artifacts, my first read was exactly like you - I didn't like it very much either. Even after pressing hard for 6 weeks on our new gargoyles and having each of them fully developed, I still didn't like it. Another month has passed, and now I'm sort of in the middle, it doesn't "bother" me anymore, yet I don't "like" it, and I'm not sure that sitting inside Dev's perch I'd actually change it. Assuming they're finished scaling back imbuing (I only say this as literally everything is connected, and a backslide anywhere can only make the gargoyle intro and playability worse), it really is a bit unecessary to use the historical arties on these characters. What led me to this conclusion has been imbuing, a lot of imbuing, for our gargoyles and other characters. The additional resists on gargoyle clothing/ armor, makes it very, very easy to max all resists. Because of this benefit, there are a lot more property "slots" on the sets we made for our gargoyles than for our human/ elf sets. The result is that our full sets of imbued gargoyle armor, is significantly better than crafted/ imbued sets for the other races. Laying it all out on the spreadsheets we use, we've been able to do as well, and in some cases better, with the gargoyles compared to our artifact laden others. The only properties we can't match or better are luck, hit lower defense, and added skill modifiers. Of these properties, if throwing gets a relook, the only thing that has any real long term impact is luck. I've mentioned that elsewhere and hope dev does something in the future with gargoyle arties to account for this. So yes, I understand your point, and even agree emotionally to some extent. But the more I've looked at it, the lesser my argument has become, and as of today - well - I'm a bit bit passive to the idea sorry.
     
  9. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    So what words meet your criteria for getting quoted? I'm having a hard time figuring that out. :D
     
  10. You're probably right...and given their history they're wise to take that approach. They just need to make the proper adjustments sooner rather than later.
     
  11. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Just wanted to clarify something, only newly crafted garg armour has higher resists. Altering existing armour into their garg equivalents do not add any extra resists. Ie altering a 3-3-3-3-3 tunic will result in a 3-3-3-3-3 garg tunic.

    The original idea of the higher resists is to cover the shortfall of earings (replaces hat) and necklaces (replaces gorget), since these were intended to be jewelry and do not have base resists.

    The other features of gargs were designed and balanced with this in mind.

    But due to views of this being overpowered, these slots were converted to armour slots instead of jewelry slots.

    Unfortunately, this change underpowered gargs due to the other balances already in place and removed a huge incentive to play as gargs.

    At least they tweaked the stamina loss when flying.
     
  12. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    I beg your pardon? Have you tried crafting some? They Do have base resists. A bit lower than their counterparts (exceptionals: 30 against 35) but still workable considering that the other 4 pieces is 50 against 35. The only potential trouble is that you cannot craft those two pieces with runics (unless SA introduced runic tinkering). But you can still imbue them.

    Not saying that they are overpowered, but I am not so sure it is underpowered either, considering that a base exceptional garg suit has 260 resists against 210 of human/elves. But it will require more time for creative thinking to be sure whether it is one or the other. Besides pre-nerf is a technique successfully used in other games, I don't find anything wrong with that, as long as you gather feedback and un-nerf as needed.
     
  13. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    They have resists now.

    But I was referring to the original intention where these 2 slots wear meant to be jewellery items (ie you can have +15 skill properties on them).

    This design was kept through all the betas.

    This is why the remaining 4 slots of garg armour were given a boost to their resists.

    Only after the open beta did they convert the earring and necklace into normal armour slots.

    The problem is, since the rest of the suit pieces has already bumped up resists that made up the initial lack of resists, getting back that 2 extra armour slots do not give much of an advantage. Esp for people that could cobble up all 70s resists using just that 4 non jewellery slots.



    I hope that clarifies things a little.
     
  14. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    Ok, now i get it. Still...

    I think you are thinking backwards. "Since people already have all 70s the bonus resist advantage is useless". That is not correct, because to reach the all-70 level people are using runic or imbuing mods. The difference of 50 resist points between the two suits means that you can save at least three properties (+15 resist properties) that you should have allocated to reach an all-70 suit, and dedicate them to something more useful (mr, hpr, lmc, luck, lrc, whatever).

    Basically a crafted garg suit is at least 3 mods better than a crafted human/elf suit. The only balance between the two suits is given by unalterable arties. Which might be an overkill in the other direction, but I am not sure about that yet.
     
  15. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Perhaps Gargoyles should be given their own version of the "library" to turn things in to....

    And then they can get their own reward "earrings" and such... that are more suited to gargoyles and gargish needs...

    And perhaps human "oddities" can be turned in for points in the gargish version of the library... so they won't be over powered.... but yet not left out.
     
  16. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Traveller. I don't understand your arguement. They don't get any old arties, but get SOME good Garg only arties. WHoo. Their suits give Ubah Resists only when crafted. ALtering an item doesn't add resists, and most arties that people want take place of one of the "uber resist" pieces as the helm will probably never be alterable as with gloves, they weren't in the beta atleast. So with that being said, the total resist of a gargoyle suit would be lessoned by say, adding RBC to it. It's a decent trade off as earings and necklesses don't have high base resists, thus are CRAP armor slots. Anyway, Gargs need buffs now. Not just throwing, nearly everything about them. It's rediculous! "Can I haz reaz0n to playz gargz nowz?"
     
  17. Harb

    Harb Guest

    This is a very good idea, thanks!
     
  18. nightstalker22

    nightstalker22 Lore Master
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    My lumberjacking Gargoyle cant even use a simple hatchet to chop lumber... I have to specially craft gargoyle axes just to chop wood. Devs... please allow the hatchet for lumberjacking! I shouldn't need dual wielding axes to harvest wood, that tree isn't putting up resistance!
     
  19. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    i took my thrower out last night, picked him up a 115 scroll and spent today grinding on a Golem to get to 115 Throwing.

    i then walked outside my castle and there was my victom.... a goat.

    i was to unleash my unholy power of 115 throwing on him.

    i looked him in the eye and i unloaded my throwing arm on him.
    nothing.... i wiffed.
    so i checked my HCI.
    60.

    strange..... i shouldnt have missed.

    so i started to count the wiffs.
    when i got to 20 i knew something wasnt right.
    so i stopped and started checking things out.
    i took off my shield.

    NOW it started to hit.
    cow died.
    bull died.

    another goat.... oh yes.... for the embarassment of a minute ago this goat shall pay for what his brother put me through..... took 3 throws to hit him.


    A GOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    there is no way im ever gonna take that thrower into fel or a champ or a peerless for that matter.

    hell.
    unless the cows and goats mount a massive attack my only garg warrior will probablly never see the light again.

    its too bad really.
     
  20. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    First off, get some of the new arties. They're better than the old ones anyway, and have unique uber features most people are too lazy to test.

    Second, Gargoyles can fly. Mages and Tamers are always at 0 slots while mounted, which is insane.

    Third, somehow get a friend who has 120 imbuing. Then nothing really matters anymore.
     
  21. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    All I got from that was "Make gargoyle tamer, make gargoyle imbue = done gargoyle." lets not look at the fact gargoyles can't max out DCI without a sword and shield, lets not look at the fact they get easier to hit when they're about to die, lets ignore the fact that their ranged skill is all but worthless... but since you can make a "mounted" 5 slot tamer, = they're fine?
     
  22. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Here I highlighted the Bull**** for ya. Garg's don't really fly at all they drag the feet over everything a human player does.


    Oh ya the "flying animation" is neat but worthless.

    YEA I WANT MY DAMN CARAPACE BACK!
     
  23. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Lack of HCI and DCI is there... But one problem is that people haven't really figured out the properties on new arties yet. Give it some time...
     
  24. Gargoyle's suck.
     
  25. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    What are you talking about? The pub 60 patch notes lists what the new properties do... if people can't read, it's on them. Your arguements are weak.