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How to Ruin an MMORPG by Origin Systems Inc., Co-authored by EA

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Extra Value Meal, Jul 20, 2008.

  1. After reading various threads about the topic and being frustrated by some of the hollow answers, I decided to write this "book" to portray my opinions on the whole "What ruined UO" debate.

    Some bits I wrote myself while others I wrote awhile ago for my column. Link

    Chapter 1 - A Unique Experience

    When risk and consequence was actually common in online games, Ultima Online stood above the rest for delivering an engrossing and open-ended online experience rife with danger. UO was and still is one of the rare breeds of MMOs considered to be sandboxes. In sandbox MMOs, unlike their more linear brethren, players can do whatever they want to whomever and wherever. You can place houses, run a tavern or other place of business, hunt, mine, fish, treasure hunt, kill other players or steal from them. Grind was minimal as there were no levels to achieve, but only skills to gain. The skill system was also open ended and a player could be whatever they wanted. A lockpicking thief, a jack-of-all-trades craftsman, a bard tamer or a tank mage, all options were available and hybridization was encouraged.

    UO was a game that offered true consequences for your actions. If you were killed, your belongings could be taken by other players and you had the choice of either fighting back to reclaim your possessions or head back to town to restock. Thieves skulked around town peaking into people's backpacks to steal their hard-earned goods and murderers roamed the countryside looking for players to kill and loot. Nothing was safe and because of this, bustling communities developed to help protect the innocents and combat those who would do harm to their fellow players. The only other commercial MMO to offer similar gameplay is EVE: Online and it is an extremely successful game.

    Chapter 2 - The Golden Age

    At its peak, UO boasted around 100K subscribers. Even though this number pales in comparison to WoW and Lineage 2, where WoW has more than nine million and Lineage 2 over 14 million, it was an accomplishment during the infancy of MMOs. While arguments still rage about what caused UO's descent into oblivion, I can honestly say, as a UO member for eight years, it was a combination of events ranging from extremely poor decision making, loud-mouthed individuals demanding more items over bugfixes and just simple excuses. Sadly UO's golden age was extremely brief as game developers began to cater to players who wanted little to no risk or consequence, zero need to interact with their fellow players and items, items, items. These players no longer wanted to risk anything and the community degenerated into a gimmie-gimme mob with an insatiable appetite for items.

    Chapter 3 - The Further Rise of the Game, but at the Cost of Its Community

    After years of flooded complaints about being incessantly killed, stolen from or griefed, developers finally realized what had to be done, but instead of thinking things through and coming up with a solution that would benefit all players, they released the poorly-implemented Renaissance expansion in 2000. Instead of making a new land mass for players looking to escape from PKs and thieves, the developers in all their wisdom duplicated the entire game and inevitably split the playerbase in half. Trammel offered complete sanctuary from ruffians while Felucca was old UO with all the trimmings. In Trammel, there was no longer the need for players to protect each other and no longer a purpose for Guilds to form to combat PKs. Since Trammel had the safety, people concerned themselves more with controlling monster spawns over anything else while begging and pleading to reduce the risk of being scammed, griefed or looted.

    Do I think Trammel was a good thing for this game? Although the expansion was very poorly implemented, I feel UO bettered in terms of gameplay and content, but in regards to its communities it was a step backwards. Trammel’s implementation reminds me of how EVE: Online currently handles its player killing systems. If you’re not familiar with EVE: Online, let me explain the similarities for you. You have the relative safety areas called High-sec where you can be killed, but your attacker gets destroyed by Concord, similar to UO’s Guards. Players in High-sec, dubbed Carebears by their pirate and pvp brethren, are a little more individualistic and are content with being left alone while they perform missions, mine or manufacture. While Trammel did not have PKing, you still ran the risk of being looted and griefed by your fellow player. And then you have the completely unsafe areas dubbed Lowsec and 0.0 where killing and pirating was encouraged. Here, the similarities to Felucca are apparent.

    Admittedly, this particular expansion allowed UO to see its highest subscription numbers and gave its players the opportunity to avoid frustration. I’ll admit, I really did enjoy the ability to monster bash with my fellow players and then hit Felucca if I felt the urge for a little pvping. Due to the newfound safety of Trammel though, it helped pave the way for future players looking to abolish even more risk in the game turning UO into a Lite-singleplayer game. And then we move towards the worse hit of them all.


    Chapter 4 - The Age of Shadows: All Risk Goes Out the Window

    If you want the true killer of UO, you need not look any further than Age of Shadows. Dubbed the Age of Sh#t by the majority of its playerbase, this "expansion" was the final nail in the coffin for UO as all risk was completely and utterly removed. With this expansion came new and overpowering skills and weapons, on top of that the item system received a complete revamp. The transformation from a skill-based MMO into an item-based and item-whoring game was achieved. There were no longer set item properties and everything turned into numbers, percentages and resistances. Instead of having an Accurate Broadsword of Power, a somewhat powerful item at the time, you had this garbage:

    [​IMG]
    I didn't know I needed a math degree to loadout my character.​

    With the introduction of AOS, many overpowering yet easy to acquire arms and armors were introduced. These items, coupled with new overpowering skills allowed players to solo most high-end monsters indefinitely. This allowed players the freedom to not worry about forming a hunting party to fight and farm relatively tough monsters and bosses themselves.

    With every item being practically unique in its own way, making them near-impossible to get again if you lose them, the system of looting other people's stuff would obviously no longer have a place in this game. The answer came in the form of a system called Insurance. For a small sum of gold, you could insure your items so they could never be looted or stolen ever again. Considering that it went against the grain of everything Ultima and most importantly challenge, it was the dumbest addition in history.

    Not only did it single-handedly destroy the Thieving profession it has allowed godly players to remain godly players. It has required many to piece together multi-million gold suits in order to compete and in many ways it has helped the individual player but in the same respect it has damaged the community as well. There is no longer a need to purchase weapons and armor from crafters when you don't have a chance of losing a specific item altogether. Items are not leaving the system because of Insurance. When I pieced together my 1400 luck suit on my tamer, I knew it was the set I’d be using for years to come. This isn’t right. Due to these reasons, UO's community has all but shattered because players no longer have to help each other to get by.

    The funny thing is lead developers at the time came out and admitted they were heavily influenced by Diablo 2 and WoW when it was in development. So instead of coming up with something original, the developers decided to copy off existing games. Subscription numbers plummeted after this and UO has never been able to fully recover since.

    Chapter 5 - Inaction

    Currently UO is plagued with cheaters and scripters who are crippling the ingame economy while forcing many players to quit the game, but developers have done next to nothing to solve the issue. Scripting has affected the community in many different ways, it has completely made the honest resource gatherer obsolete. It has put many legit player ran vendors out of business since Scripters can control the market on select products. Finally, it has jaded the community so much so that everybody thinks everyone else is scripting or cheating. And perhaps these accusations are quite true. Suggestions to help fix the myriad of other problems have otherwise been ignored and most players believe they are just being milked for all their worth while EA shifts its attention to Warhammer Online, which is currently going through its own problems at the moment.

    One sure sign of this came when UO reached its 10-year anniversary. A stunning achievement for any game especially MMOs, but all players got in return for their commitment was a stupid gift rehash. That's some dedication for ya.

    Chapter 6 - The Great Game that Could Have Been

    Ultima Online could have stayed as one of the most unique MMOs on the market if a vocal minority and a dev team prone to mistakes hadn't shifted the game in a different direction. UO once offered a truly unique experience, but tried too hard to please the masses and be like all the rest. What we're left with is a hollow husk of a game that is best left ignored to die. It really pains me to say it as UO was a big part of my life for a long time, but it's just not the same game it once was. Any remnants of Old UO have all been lost to the sands of time. What a shame.
     
  2. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Wow.

    Nice write-up, and totally on the mark.

    What was, was great and fantastic. What is, is okay...nothing more, nothing less.

    Well said!
     
  3. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Why the IBTM??

    It's well written, well thought out, and an opinion shared by many many people who are still playing the game, and by most people who quit.

    Not a rant, at all.

    Altho, looking at the locked/moved/deleted threads lately, the last two days, it *does* seem we are being policed of any negativity, and God forbid ya say anything derogatory about KR. :eyes:

    But this? Good write-up!
     
  4. RedDaTeef

    RedDaTeef Guest

    100% agree with OP!!
    Nicely Put.
     
  5. Sunrise

    Sunrise Guest

    aye its a good write up. Heres my question tho. You have keeped paying over the years for bad service? We all know EA is not the best when it comes to customer sevice also.

    So a fool and his money are soon parted?

    Other than that I think your story is great. In alot of ways some people are going to say its great. Others are going to say if it was not for these changes UO would of been gone a long time ago. For example. Before tram it was next to impossible to even leave town with out some red ganking ya. They owned the towns. Hence why there is factions and no one does that. Now there is champs. Again the gank squards. But hey just my two cents is all.

    The devs did what they thought was best. Now these changes happened years ago..why we still complaining about it? Either move on to other games or try and enjoy this game...For thats all it is. None of us OWN a server or a real town or anything. We just pay to play.
     
  6. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Some good points.
    I think most agree that AoS was, simply put, the worst thing that ever happened to the game.
    (except those who think that Trammel was, but lets not get this one locked too)


    As to community, I don't really agree on the reasons it has failed. Community requires 3 things to endure.
    Common interests.
    Common goals.
    Sense of accomplishment.

    May player-made towns were decaying and some already deceased before Ren was ever designed, let alone released.

    Common interests in UO were usually defense against PKs or BEING PKs. But doing the same thing day in and day out gets boring no matter what that thing is. So sooner or later that common interest is lost.

    Common goals, typically skill gains - which you can already see is a temporary thing.. or maybe Helping new players - which only works so long as there is a steady flow of them.

    Sense of accomplishment. This is the hard one. What is there to accomplish? Gaining X amount of gold? That doesn't take community. Wiping out the PKs? Not possible since they just rez up re-equip and come back again. MORPGs have always lacked in this area for the development and maintenance of community systems. There are very few ways to give a group of players a sense of accomplishment that doesn't lose all meaning by introducing the next thing to achieve.
    If wiping out the army of mongbats as an accomplishment, and the next ordeal is an army of headles.. and then lizardmen.. you see the problems.


    The shift to item-based game play was simply wrong. People didn't stick around UO all these years because it had the best graphics, or strongest communities, etc. They stayed because it was unique. 700 points to work with, and 20+ skills to build from.
    Item properties demolished that. The skill cap is still there, and the skills still function, but when you can cast a spell that requires 99 skill when you only have 30 in that skill (thanks to items) where does the strength of the game fall?

    Unfortunately, it can't be undone. Every character out there has propertied items, artifacts, runic kits, or something now.
    Even I would probably quit if they simply took away everything my characters have. Unless of course they did a complete reset so we all started over, and managed to permenantly eliminate the scripters at the same time.
     
  7. love2winalot

    love2winalot Guest

    I love it. So True.
     
  8. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I appreciate the overwrought, dramatic, pseudo-intellectual eloquence with which you delivered the now-standard "Trammel Ruined UO" argument that we've heard, literally, thousands of times before from dozens of different posters.

    The sad thing is that I'm so tired of refuting it that it's getting tempting to just let it win.

    The reality is that "community" was a scarce and dangerous thing before Felucca. What RP existed and what player-run towns existed were under constant assault by vastly superior numbers.

    Anti-PKs faced as much resentment as gratitude from the populace ("you're just making it worse!!" was a common, sad mantra).

    *shrugs* Deny it if you want....On the boards, there's more of you than there are of me...Of course, in the actual game, paying subscriptions, you are a distinct minority.

    All I can really do is hope that Mythic looks a subscriptions, and not boards.

    These arguments have a lot less to do with reality than with romance.

    -Galen's player
     
  9. Lord Sir Scott

    Lord Sir Scott Lore Keeper
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    Awsome work, Very Nice...
    Thank you For your Efforts....
    WOW!

    Thanks from many folks...
    SS
     
  10. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Great post!! Sums up the general consensus of what the playerbase has felt and thought about how this game has been handled for the past 8+ years.

    We've always wanted Ultima Online... not a cookie cutter of Diablo, WoW, EQ, nada... just Ultima.



    You not attempting to refute it does not mean that it hasn't already won. Look around you... people miss the community, the risk versus reward system and most importantly the uniqueness of Ultima Online.

    Cookie cutting this game into a clone of other MMOs out there was the worst business strategy ever. This is a sandbox MMO not a theme-park version anyway... why they'd think it was a good idea to try and attempt to shift its core design mid-way through is beyond me.

    Again, great post!
     
  11. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    While I may agree that AoS did quite a bit to kill the spirit of the game and turn it from a skill based game to an item based game... I will NEVER agree that Trammel had anything to do with destroying the game....

    Yes communities died quite a bit after Trammel..... but you must remember that the seer and councilor programs being flushed did far more to destroy the game in my opinion..... Those programs brought the communities together..... what we get now certainly is NOT community oriented....... EVERYONE is in it for THEMSELVES.... what's in it for me! What does this give ME...... Again highly ITEM based. We have lost the community........

    Yes I do agree that in days of old when it was kill or be killed you HAD to go out in groups you HAD to belong to a group or you got killed and lost everything. People followed you home and stole your whole house......

    How about you quit complaining and just quit and someone will come along and scavenge every thing you leave behind?

    What is killing UO is the cheating, whinning, Gimme Gimme attitudes, item based gameplay and dupers, scripters and scammers......

    What UO needs is to return to community based projects.... things that really MAKE folk come together work together for the BETTERMENT of all not just for the individual.... I would like to see councilors, Seers, and GM's again..... I'd like to have what they have on the Japanese shards..... Go take a look!... Each of their shards has unique attractive additions all over.... that are there for the entire community not one guild or individual... But my guess is some folk would somehow find a way to corrupt the system and ruin that for everyone....
     
  12. FarukAlazar

    FarukAlazar Guest

    It is a good write-up, that's not what I'm saying. If it goes where certain other posters will probably take it, it will be short lived for UHall. I'm not questioning the mods, its the general population that always drags these things down into a shouting match.:fight:

    Sorry for the OT. I'm done.:next:
     
  13. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    Very well written, and i agree with most of the statements.. however:

    Blizzard included all the trial accounts in aquiring this figure.. not framiliar with EVE, but i can guess the same holds true..

    Chapter 4 and 5 are your strong points.

    Forgot to mention guilds like FL..

    Anyone else notice the downhill slope right after Richard Garriot left? Might have somthing to do with it too.
     
  14. I did not say that Trammel ruined the game, in fact I said the game was better. The only negative that Trammel caused, which I also explained, was towards the community.

    And thanks for the positive feedback.
     
  15. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    I well remember when UO:R was still on the drawing board.

    The Majority of the player base wanted a zone system to solve all the problems, however EA was worrying about losing players to EverQuest and the upcoming release of DAOC and regardless of the communities input on this they carbon copied Brit for a quick fix.

    Then the Exodus happened and this is where the majority of the community died, player towns, and the beginning of the genocide of thieves.
     
  16. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Great write up dude. Just one problem, the proverbial "last nail in the coffin" hasnt been put in yet. That would mean the game is over. As it stands there is still some life in it, but I feel myself losing it again. I just came back a little over two months ago or so, and already feel the "cancel" twitch coming.
     
  17. Gwendar-SP

    Gwendar-SP Guest

    Well done. I like to call AoS Age of Stupidy in pollite company. (Age of S****-ups) otherwise because it was so messed up at the start - black holes, crashes, spell books jumpping out of secure containers, ect. So messed up that they gave gifts for sticking with the game.
     
  18. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    TRUTH!!!
     
  19. Deb

    Deb Guest

    "Yes I do agree that in days of old when it was kill or be killed you HAD to go out in groups you HAD to belong to a group or you got killed and lost everything. People followed you home and stole your whole house......"

    This paragraph made me smile as I can not tell you how many times
    I had my houses stolen. Even though my husband and brother were
    always telling me "TO LEAVE YOUR KEY IN THE BANK":eek:
     
  20. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Politics is full of instances where the "wrong" argument (the one that was inconsistent with the facts and led to a result no one wanted and no one found favorable) won the day.

    If this argument has indeed won, and I hope it hasn't, then this argument can join that long and ignoble tradition.

    Like I said....And have said dozens of times over the years....These arguments have more to do with romance than with reality. Romantic, largely fantastical notions of a half-remembered time long past.

    If the UO Team ever comes to buy into this flawed, inaccurate, fantastical "logic," then UO, eventually, turns from a "wildly profitable" business into something tossed out with the trash.

    *shrugs*

    Whatever....Hopefully the UO team reads balance sheets and not these boards.

    -Galen's player
     
  21. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    You know, this reply sorta makes the point I've been making for years involving all the "Ren killed UO" spewings, though that's not entirely what the poster meant....

    UO DID NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM. Other games existed, by that point, and many more were in development and testing.

    In fact, the "great exodus of players" that the "Ren killed UO" keeps pointing out, ALSO hit the OTHER two games out at the time (EQ & AC), one having its subscription drop, and the other changing from about a 60 percent growth rate on the MMOG subscription charts to about a 15% growth rate. I'd really like to know how a change to UO caused the other games to take simultaneous hits of the exact same type.

    What did occur at the time was the explosion of non-MMO multiplayer online gaming (from the growth of broadband, and introduction of games that utilized it), as well as numerous new MMO games (such as DAOC) beng in beta. One only has to look at the web page (forget the link now) that shows all the announced MMOs of the period - and how most of them ended up dying in Alpha or Beta, or shortly after launch.

    I remember when I first came to stratics - and all the ads saying "Ultima Online Players: Your new game is here!" I wonder what ever became of "Wish"??? (vaporware, of course, at the end of its beta)
     
  22. ElRay

    ElRay Guest

    Spot on excellent post, everything is almost 100% true imo

    Thats why im playing Age of Conan......so sick of dealing with cheaters/exploiters, putting up with AoS on top of that crap made me die a little inside each time I logged on

    EA really doesnt deserve your money people, with WAR on the horizon, do you really think they give two-sh!ts about this game? they are milking it for all they can before they pull the plug

    ps WAR has had alot of content removed, just so they can release it faster...............What do you expect from a company(EA) that lets hacks and exploits run rampant in their games(UO)?

    Oh well, back to AoC
     
  23. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Well written.

    I think that the people who did not play UO before AoS will have a hard time relating to what you are talking about.

    I still miss the days of sweaty palms and being on the edge of my seat.
     
  24. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    Quoted for Truth

    Long live Ren!
     
  25. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    No worries. The dev team has always been able to see reality. The reality of where the majority played when Ren was launched. There is a reason most all expansions and content are found in Trammel. That reason is not to "ruin the game" LOL

    Reality check for the win.
     
  26. Nicely done ... AoS clobbering UO is right on the mark as far as I'm concerned. AoS introduced only one thing that (to me) has some worth ... custom housing.

    I hope Jeremy, Robert or someone from EA sees this and takes it to heart.
     
  27. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    *puts on serious hat*

    Here's my take on the whole Trammel thing (without repeating some points the OP made):

    There was a problem with rampant murdering and thieving. A change was needed. Trammel was one of many options that could have been implemented. It also turns out that it was one of the worst options to actually execute.

    Complete safety wasn't needed, the risk vs. reward for pks and thieves (and other imbalances) just had to be adjusted -- in some cases severely.

    But removing player interaction was exactly the worst thing to do.

    :stir:
     
  28. To reiterate my opinion in simpler terms:

    Trammel helped UO as a whole, but hurt the community.

    AOS ruined the complete essence of UO. This expansion's implementation is similar to that of the Star Wars Galaxy debacle.

    I feel AOS did the most damage with little or no good coming out of it while Trammel offered many good features, but its implementation was poor.
     
  29. K'torr

    K'torr Guest

    I have no doubt that they will see it, if they haven't already. But take it to heart? I wouldn't hold your breath. No one likes to admit they were wrong. I doubt anyone from EA/Mythic will even acknowledge reading it.
     
  30. Great read. It actually brought back some of the better memories I had back in the day.
     
  31. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    UO:R's biggest failure was that they implemented the rulesets BACKWARDS which is what killed most of the player run establishments.

    AOS's biggest failure was not sticking within the framework of the original magic item system while adding in the new mods (and balancing them accordingly).

    But the idea that UO would have survived the MMOG market WITHOUT the Trammel ruleset is just wishful thinking.

    Thus far, NO OTHER MMOG has had any success at releasing with a free-for-all non-con PvP everywhere ruleset... NONE. Right now there is ONE left, and it's been nothing but vapour for how long now? Everything else has been purely consentual PvP systems either by server, or via battlegrounds within servers, or some other style of ruleset that allows people to choose their level of PvP involvement.
     
  32. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    I agree with the OP, but the player base can revive the community.. I am a pretty big roleplayer, I have many roleplaying characters, I am from Pacific, a server that has lost a lot of it's roleplayers, and a very much dying server in terms of RP, there is no new blood, I am trying to create new blood, cause RP is what keeps the community going... But everyone is all isolated, nobody interacts, I have an Orc, that is ignored by 90% of the people here on Pacific when I try to interact...

    Basaclly, the player base needs to ignore what the developers throw at us.. We need to stand up together and say, in game, not on forums, this is what we want, not this...
     
  33. No arguments there, but it's my belief that the frame of mind of safety and individualism brought forth due to Trammel has helped and hurt the game. It greatly helped the game because people could relax while playing and not be frustrated because of PKs and Thieves. It hurt the game because people began to play with more individualistic intentions while interacting and grouping with others happened less often. I will not fault people for playing the way they want to, I'm merely saying what happened afterwards and now was inevitable.

    EVE: Online is the closest free-for-all non-con PVP will ever get. Players can still be killed in high-sec zones, but only through suicide ganking so there is still some element of risk when traversing secure areas. It's a harsh game and draws the old UO crowd more so than other MMOs.
     
  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Agreed cept for the whole "you need a math degree to understand aos properties lolol" cuase thats plain nonsense. The new item system was poorly implimented, but I think it takes little to no effort to understand.
     
  35. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Well, I'll give you my own experience based on gaming in general, not just UO.

    When I started UO, I played solo, later joined a guild, went through the various iterations of the guild. I watched people come and people go. We PvPed, we PKed, we crashed, we reformed, we built a town, we PvMed and PvEd, we ran events, we abandoned the town when Trammel came because the ruleset fit us in Trammel and not Felucca (but not after spending a LONG time asking for the ability to move the town to the exact location in Trammel), and over time, most of the guild faded away to other games and things. So there are only a very few of us left.

    Back in 1994 I was introduced to Magic the Gathering and soon was caught up in a world not unlike the early days of UO... very active, Firday nights saw the games store packed with every table taken, floorspace taken spilling from the back room into the main store. It was not uncommon to be trading with two people while in the middle of a huge multiplayer while looking up rules for another game across the room. But as time wore on, people came and left, things happened and soon there were much fewer to play with.

    I still play with a couple of small "core groups" of players from time to time when I go back to my hometown (but I haven't played down in my current town of residence).

    What I see is that afteryou spend months if not years of effort to build something, then see it go through the "life cycle", it's difficult to build up the drive and desire to do it again.

    "You can't go back" is a truism that people need to realize. It's never going to feel the same... the magic was in the first time around. Does that mean people should just quit? Nah, it just means that if we spend all of our time trying to regain what we lost, it's going to lead to disappointment if and when we get it. So we have to look forward and try and see what we can do that is new.

    What does that mean for me? Well, I'm not good at "leading" from the front. I was always the second man so to speak. I would do what I could to help our guild leader and the guild, but I'm not one to go out and try to recruit what would effectively be a new guild. But by the same token, I'm loathe to drop the guild... though I'm not sure why other than I've been a part of it for over 10 years.

    So, I guess my "community support" lately has been on the side of trying to help people understand how the new client works and building better user interfaces for those who use the client.

    So I don't really have an answer for the individualistic turn UO took... but I can see how it happened... mostly it's a phenomenon that is bigger than UO.
     
  36. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    Great post. It was not "better" back in the day. It was UO's infancy, and no ruleset or in game changes can really account for that feeling we all had back then. It was the novelty that we will never get back. I sometimes wonder what the "Trammel killed UO" crowd really want. Non consentual PVP everywhere? Again? Did they not get the hint that that DID NOT WORK. We needed Trammel. Plain and simple. Now there are some valid arguements on HOW Trammel could have been created (as in, make the original lands...Trammel, and the new facet should have been Fel....which I would not have been opposed to), and the AoS item system, but MMO's that do not evolve die.

    The failure of community spirit is nothing short of the players fault. Some of you harp on about Trammel killed the orcs and the vampires and yack yack yack. What's keeping you from roleplaying NOW? The fact you cant kill people? Paaaleease.

    Go make your community. Go make your roleplay. Play UO however you want. Go. Now. The biggest thing that ever changed in UO was players attitudes.

    "Back in the day" my friends in game were so sick of pk's and all the crap that most of them left for EQ. It's funny how people say how strong community was back then. For me, in the last 3 or so years, UO has never been more community oriented, as I have met my bests friends in UO in those recent years. Go figure.
     
  37. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    can i just add plz and please no flames..

    wow as not got 10million active players and linage aint got 14m.. yes they got far more than UO for sure .. but jeepers they BOTH count every free 10 day trial ever created HAS active players ..its total nonsense....i wish UO had done the same.. think with the accounts ive had myslef wed be hitting the 20m mark!!!!!if not more....................
    :danceb::danceb::danceb:
     
  38. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    Bang on!!!!!!

    And what i cannot understand to this day.... is why we cant just stop all 3rd party programs running with UO..

    YES UO ASSIST would be gone too but who care!!!if it would stop every other script program out there!!!
     
  39. Haddy G

    Haddy G Journeyman
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    Don't forget when someone steals your ore and you steal it back, then their battleship uncloaks and blasts you ;) Good times :) I wish UO had pvp like Eve.
     
  40. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Good Post...

    But even Back In the day there were more problems than not. Just as much cheating was going on, just as many exploits. People were a lot more closed mouthed about it all.


    Much of the risk and "danger" came from these exploits and cheats rather than a Good opponent or balance.
    Just saying...
     
  41. Nowhere in my OP did I ever mention the fact that we were better off without Trammel, I even said that it made the game better.

    For all intents and purposes, the AoS item system was a step backward.

    No argument here, but if it evolves into something that's like everything else (AOS), then you have a problem.

    The thing with the RP Orcs and Vamps was that their RPG thrived on killing humans, I'll admit that it could still be done in Felucca, but I guess they had less people interested. I am honestly not sure as I did not play with them.

    Again no arguments here, but I guess the lack of players or the urge to even roleplay is what's hurting it. But that isn't the game's fault as already pointed out.

    It's all about personal experiences and I'm glad you made friends. Nobody is arguing that there is no community when someone looks for it. It's more of an individual's encounter with other people in non-populated locales such as dungeons, bosses etc. There is no cooperation unless it has to be forced like the gauntlet.

    For me, I enjoyed the community in those years since trust and reputation were very important. When I played my thief for all those years, I developed a reputation as being honorable and friendly. I'd loot red's remains and give it back to them so they wouldn't kill me, or give something back after I stolen it if the player was down on his luck. After all that time, I gained many friends. I guess I am a tad bitter because my thief is no longer of any value and the friends I once had have gone.

    But, as I noted, it's all an individual's experiences. Some may think the community is thriving, while others believe the opposite to be true.

    It's probably an answer to a question we'll never know.
     
  42. Jahira-Tor

    Jahira-Tor Lore Master
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    It was a lovely story, saddly true.

    I dont mind admitting that ive been investigating player run shards just for these reasons.
     
  43. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    Back in the day, the players were able to deal with cheaters without trying to get help from GM's or the Dev's... Same goes with griefing, I bet more griefing happens in Trammel, than it ever did with Felucca, in Felucca, when you're being griefed, you're actually able to fight back..
     
  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Not really. Griefing or being griefed is NOT facet specific. It's an issue of having too many people in a small area (stepping on toes). There are places in Fel right now that you're more likely to be griefed than others. Same holds true in Trammel based facets, though in different ways.

    Of course, aside from house issues (which the intelligent can handle), it's damn near impossible to lose your ingame's life earnings from being griefed in Trammel whereas in Felucca it wasn't uncommon at all.
     
  45. Surindur

    Surindur Guest

    Good points all, except for the two opposing views which seem to have trouble actually reading the posts. Whatever..

    Another thing in my opinion that helped to hurt the community a bit was the addition of the guild chat system. No one really talks to each other anymore, or not where anyone would notice. Even in Luna or wbb, you see two or three spammers and fifty people standing around in total silence. If you're not part of that guild or alliance you're just in the dark. Used to be you came upon a group of people somewhere you could hear some gossip, jump in a conversation, get caught up on the latest news, make a few friends, or just chat. Y'know.. interaction on a larger than guild-only level. Sadly enough I see the same thing in the RP community these days. Several times I've been to a tavern or hang-out and seen ten or so people standing around in complete silence for half an hour.. riveting I tell ya!

    I think one of the big things that killed off Fel was factions. The exclusion of non-faction members from participation and the outrageous price gouging of town vendors made Trammel just that more appealing to die-hard residents. Theres more, but whatever.. It can't be fixed.

    We need a new sandbox. You could take all the good UO and rework some of the bad UO, then toss it all in with a new theme and have a pretty solid MMO.
    How much funding do you need to do something like that anyhow?
     
  46. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    This post was nothing new...

    To boil it all down...

    1) Trammel should have never been created.
    2) AoS was a mistake.
    3) Items should be losable.

    Well one of those is actually right. Trammel should have been the only ruleset since beta. The start of this game encouraged people to screw others to get ahead, and if they were really good at screwing others they got farther ahead, and if they could screw others in a group they could win the game. That reputation has plagued UO since birth. Those that were the pkers of yesterday became the much hated scripters of today.

    AoS was a mistake...plain and simple. It should have never happened. It had pluses/minuses, but reworking everything in the game to change it 100% in one expansion was a dumb idea.

    Items shouldn't have any way of getting lost period. Insurance is a joke. Everything should have been blessed. Name one successful game where you can actually lose items. There are none. I know more people that have left this game due to bugs where they lost items then for any other reason. In a game with million gold suits you can't afford for there to be ANY chance for the players to actually lose items. Most people are not willing to rebuild a 40-50 million gold suit that tooks them months to make. They simply leave the game to go to a game where they know that stupidity won't happen to them again.

    Think of it this way...

    You just bought a house irl. Someone torches that house and then gets away with it cause hell they were just torching the house because they could. You are more likely to move then to rebuild. Its the exact same with ingame items.
     
  47. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Blizzard's worldwide numbers are now over 11 mil, and those were SUBSCRIPTION numbers. It never included trial accounts. It did include people that bought the game and played for 30 days or less though and never renewed subscriptions.

    Funny because this game didn't peak in numbers until right after AoS with 250k. Then it dropped players like crazy as AoS changed almost everything and SWG came out to draw away members at the same time. Not a lot of fresh blood came into MMOs before WoW made them the cool thing to do.
     
  48. Rand Althor

    Rand Althor Journeyman
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    As a player from Beta, I've ben through it all... here's something to think about... what's been killing the game for the last year or two?....




    Vets.... no one but hard core UO players want to play with the 2D client... so EA can't get more subscribers... EA tries to go with a KR version in hopes of getting more people to start playing UO, they plan to spend a little $$ and expand with gargoyles... but there's an uprising in the Vet community, we want our 2D client!!!!!... so EA looks and decides.. well we can't spend $$ to support two different clients... if we ditch 2D for KR, then we lose out hard core base, and gamble with new players coming to KR... so... hat does EA do?.. in my opinion, they leave her on ife support... no extra $$ cause it's a dying player base... so who's to blame?... us old vets that don't want a little change, we can't see that if we accept change and EA can get a larger player base, then with a large plaer base comes more $$ for bug fixes, making the game better, and so on....

    So while we all sit here and ***** at EA... look at ourselves, because IMO we also have a part to play in UO's swan song...

    Nuff said!.
     
  49. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    I'm relatively certain he said no game has been SUCCESSFUL. Obviously, you like EVE Online, but I would not exactly call them successful. They have no where near the numbers they need to go 10 years. When they get more numbers or go 10 years then you can start calling them successful.