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How UO was ruined.. PvP.. Mages..

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Jesusislord, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Jesusislord

    Jesusislord Guest

    So.. I've been watching pvp these days and made some observations. I'll list in detail how PvP was ruined, and by extension, the entire game- by shrinking the player base.

    PvP's death and why it died.

    Mages. Mages ruined this game and here's why:

    A mage template always have too many options. They have 64 spells, most of them useful, and a template like this: Magery/Eval/Med. This is a core mage template now. 3 skills, leaving 3-4 more as options. So let's say, Necro, SS, Resist.

    That is 2 professions on one template. Two very powerful professions. That happen to work extremely well together. About.. 81 spells to be cast, most of which are useful in some way.

    Now, back before spell channeling mage weapons existed, a mage would need: Wrestling/Magery/Eval/Med. 4 Skills. And they always took resist because it prevented harm spams from interrupting them, as a resisted spell didn't interrupt your cast. And with good resist, you always resisted low level spells. So 5 skills to be a mage, down to 4 because of mage weapons.. and now resist is optional because cure potions do the job just fine, as do other potions and magical fruits that exist these days. So 3 skills to be a mage, leaving way too many options open to add to their template.

    What I'm saying in short, is a mage can be anything a warrior can be, but will always have more options, more abilities, better defense, better offense.

    Now let's look at warriors. To be a warrior, one needs:

    Weapon/Tactics/Anat/Focus (Or med) and pretty much always healing. 4-5 skills bare minimum. Let's say it's 4. And let's say we only have 6 skills as options because we need 120 in weapons/tactics/anatomy to even do damage that rivals mage damage.

    So we choose healing, and we can get Chivalry and Resist so we don't get paralyzed in a mages energy field. We need to lower our dex, to we have a decent mana pool, and now rely on mana regeneration to save us, help us.. whatever the circumstances.

    Now we have to cast and chug to heal. Like a mage. We get off a mortal strike, which takes a lot of mana. Our mana becomes low after having to cure and heal and use armor ignore and mortal strike.. etc..

    Okay, so it's an example.. that warriors rely on mana.. not stamina.. for all their moves.. regardless of you being a Paladin, Samurai, Ninja, Lumberjack.. whatever your fancy is.

    A warrior using armor ignore, doesn't eat into his Stamina, as logic would assume would be the case. It takes mana. Why? I don't know.

    Basically, warriors are mini-mages. Mini-mages with weapons. And now when you stand beside a mage, because they have a weapon.. you have to deal with it's base damage, which is a lot higher than wrestling's, as well as the poison barrage, strangles, flamestrikes.. etc..

    So you make an Archer.. don't need parry, can use Chivalry or Bushido moves, Probably go with med over focus since Bushido and Chivalry can restore stamina.. Now you rely on mortal blows.. which can be countered with apples. So you give up, and make a mage.

    Mage templates:

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Resist
    120 Necro
    120 Spirit Speak
    120 Med

    Perfect. But no.. how about..

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Ninjitsu
    120 Stealth
    100 Hiding
    120 Med

    Perfect again, because of mage weapons, Or Maybe..

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Anat
    120 Healing
    120 Resist
    120 Med

    So now I have an extremely high base Defense Chance because of Anatomy and Eval, and can heal myself with magery and bandages!? You gotta be kidding. Plus my trusty mage weapon.. if it gets disarmed.. oh well.. I'll still dodge your attacks.

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Resist
    120 Med
    100 Inscription
    100 Poisoning
    40 Focus (Or Chiv, Even)

    Perfect again.. how can I fail with a mage template? It seems I can make any build I want!

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Med
    120 Animal Taming
    120 Animal Lore
    120 Resist

    Wow! The options are endless.

    Now let's look at some warrior builds:

    120 Archery
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Healing
    120 Resist
    120 Bushido

    Good.. That would work.. The biggest concern is, of course, for a warrior.. being.. MANA!? So should I drop resist for Focus or Meditation? Eat into Healing, or eat into any of my 120's for some mana regen?

    120 Macing
    120 Anatomy
    120 Healing
    120 Tactics
    120 Parry
    120 Chivalry

    Okay.. not bad.. there's just one problem.. my MANA. So, again, eat into my 120's for Focus or Med.. Drop parry for Focus or Med.. I hate not having Resist.. but it just can't fit. Will have to deal with being paralyzed and getting trapped in a mages energy field I guess.

    120 Fencing
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Ninjitsu
    120 Stealth
    120 Hiding

    Okay.. no resist.. just won't fit.. and relying so much on MANA with a warrior.. I need Focus or Med. I'd like to drop Stealth.. but getting close to an elf is dangerous for a ninja. Plus, 40 damage Deathstrikes are nice.. So I guess I can drop Tactics and Anatomy.. gain about 50 points in med.. rely on potions for healing.. Hopefully I don't get paralyzed and trapped in a mages energy field.

    120 Swords
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Bushido
    120 Healing
    120 Resist.. or 120 Parry..

    But what about my mana? If I get strangled and poisoned, that will disturb my Confidence all the time. If I drop Resist for Parry, I can use Evasion.. But can I evade Explosion Flamestrike from inside a mages paralyzing energy field?

    That's it. I'm getting my Cu Sidhe!

    120 Archery
    120 Taming
    120 Animal Lore
    120 Anatomy
    120 Tactics
    120 Resist

    Well that's better.. I'd sure like to heal, though. So I'll drop resist and get Healing? Or maybe I can heal with Chivalry? Bushido?

    I give up. I'll make a mage.. more templates:

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Med
    120 Resist
    120 Tactics
    120 Bushido

    Well, that should be fun. Lightning Strikes with a mage weapon.. confidence for a healing boost.

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Med
    120 Resist
    120 Chivalry
    100 Inscription
    20 Focus

    Why not? Remove curse.. fast cure.. Why not?

    Anyways, if you don't get my point.. read harder. Warriors rely on mana, not Stamina, and anything a warrior can do, a mage can do better.

    Warrior Template: "You wanna Strangle me?!" Template

    120 Swords
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Necro
    120 SS
    120 Resist

    At least I can heal, AND have resist.. bye bye mage energy field paralyze! Most of the time, anyway. I COULD eat into some 120's for Med.

    Warrior Template: "You wanna poison me?!" Template

    120 Swords
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Resist
    120 Magery
    120 Eval

    Well, I can heal with spells. Have resist so pain spikes, poison, paralyze-energy fields won't work as well. I guess I could eat into some 120's for Med.

    Right. So you just with an Archer, grab a composite bow..

    120 Archery
    120 Tactics
    120 Anatomy
    120 Healing
    120 Bushido
    120 Med

    No Resist. So if I get paralyzed in an energy field, at least I can shoot back.

    It's sacrifice. A warrior always needs to sacrifice something. A warrior always needs mana.

    It's stupid, it's unfair, playing without resist can be an option.. but really.. take it all in.

    Yes, Enchanted Apples.. Potions.. Didn't even mention a mage/parry template.. Those exist as well.

    120 Magery
    120 Eval
    120 Med
    120 Resist
    100 Inscribe
    120 Parry
    20 Focus

    Perfect.

    Now let's remember that mages pretty much always have a hand free for potion drinking. If you're a parry mage, you can simply disarm your shield for a second.

    That's my point. You will never fail to make a good mage template. When you try and make a warrior template.. it comes down to giving up a skill, losing points in this and putting more in that.. etc etc..

    And it's all because of mage weapons, and it's all because warriors need mana.. to execute moves like.. poison strike? Where stabbing them just inject poison.. and moves like armor ignore.. where you'd think it would require a bit more stamina to thrust extra hard.. what mana has to do with it.. who knows..

    Anyways.. whatever.

    Remember, you can always drop resist on any template for something else. If you're warrior you pretty much have to. If you're a mage.. well.. the choice is yours.
     
  2. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    .....
    Is this serious?

    Not all mages use mage weapons. Not all mages have resist.

    Let us not even begin to mention that being disarmed with a mage weapon is like giving up the fight.....Actually I changed my mind, this is not even worth arguing about since you have only been "viewing" pvp.

    Even the start of your argument is null, mages did not have to have wrestling, altho they did have resist. Mages are far less powerful now than they were before aos. (Sure they had a glorified time after SE but that was design over sight and was quickly dealt with) End of story, mages before AOS = gods. Mages today = fodder (at least 1v1 against a dexxer)

    And a single word to destroy your whole argument "offscreen"

    Edit: after more reading I realize most people do not use those templates to pvp >.>
     
  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Hahahahaha....
     
  4. Saris

    Saris Guest

    well i disagree pvp was never that good in UO.

    but when I remeber the good old days, well archer anyone run away from you while hitting you with a bow, yes its been nerfed but how bout bush when it first came out? one shot anyone?


    now errr ummmmy every game has a paper rock sccisor aspect too it unfortunatly but in UO you are not locked into any template, make your guy a mage hunter but then prepare to ***** about some oehter class.
     
  5. Risso

    Risso Babbling Loonie
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    Freakin' mages, coming along and stealing our PeeVeePees...
     
  6. Zyron

    Zyron Guest

    That was almost the dumbest thing ive ever read


    First of all.

    Do you know how hard it is to be a really good mage?

    Its hard....
    It takes Years to be a very good/successful mage...

    And why does it matter what temp we play?
    they all take skillt he only one that doesnt is a nervestrike death striker....


    The reason you are making this rant is because you get absolutley dominated in fel..

    If you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen..

    Some of those templates are just random and maybe one person per every 4 shards plays it..
     
  7. Jesusislord

    Jesusislord Guest

    Guh. Mages always had wrestling. If they didn't they died to a mage, and to a warrior.. they wouldn't and couldn't win.

    Warriors now are just armor ignore spammers. Which will be nerfed.

    Mages today are still the best.. unfortunately no one knows how to play them, because everyone is running armor ignore spamming warriors.

    My point is, you can't make a warrior with two professions that compliment one another perfectly. There's no point for one, and the only tactic a warrior has is armor ignore spam.. because warriors are utterly useless without it.

    No I didn't mention armor ignore spam in my first post. That's all warriors have because they are pathetic. Not the players, but the professions that are geared toward warrior types.

    Mages on the other hand, will always have more options than warriors, and thus, will always be better than them. When I say mages, I mean anyone that casts, aside from Paladins.

    You see. The only warriors that do damage are archers. And even then, it's armor ignore spam that works the best.

    Yes there are other things they can do. But it's armor ignore spam. Dismounting, sure.

    Here's some more about warriors, which I didn't get into much. Also your assumption that I've only 'viewed' pvped is just an assumption. Observation comes from participation.

    A warrior takes Bushido. He toggles armor ignore again and again. He then toggles Confidence when the battle is over, to heal himself.

    A warrior takes archery. He toggles dismount, then armor ignore.

    Now we look at mages. And their endless options for templates. They require casting multiple spells; curses, corpse skin, pain spike, magic arrow.. fireball, lightning, explosion, cure, heal, greater heal, earthquake, flamestrike, bless, poison..

    The mage spends his time getting practice, every battle is practice. He does well, and deserves his victory.

    The warrior toggles armor ignore, and spams that. That is his only option for damaging someone, especially other warriors. He has high mana, low stamina. Because he relies more on his weapon special abilities than he does on his professional abilities.

    This is why pvp is pathetic. Warriors have nothing on mages. Yet they rely on mana to win.

    "Mages are Fodder", that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

    Mages are the best. Bushido is garbage, Chivalry is garbage. Armor Ignore and Dismount aren't.

    Mages rely on their professions. Warriors don't. There's no such thing as a Samurai in pvp. You don't see people using Counter Attack. Momentum Strike. You don't see Samurais. You see warriors spamming armor ignore.

    Oh and my templates I came up with in two minutes. If you've never seen a necro mage, I suggest you come out of Luna, into Felucca and see. They may not have 120 in everything, but it's an example.. generally of two professions, mage, necro, healer, tamer, they all work together.. even the skills made for warriors work with mages.

    That is a problem to me, because I believe in this game a mage shouldn't benefit from EVERYTHING there is to take as a skill. But they do, because EVERYTHING requires mana.

    You see, consecrate weapon.. lightning strike, wow big deal. Toggle Armor Ignore. Maybe use Divine Fury is you run low on Stamina. Maybe. Or you can just drink a total refresh potion. Remove Curse.. oh there's apples for that. Cleanse By Fire, potions, Close Wounds can be disturbed.. potion can heal as much.

    Warriors have nothing. Mages benefit from it just as much as warriors.

    Focus is a worthless skill.

    So in the end, Playing a warrior requires Armor Ignore. And high Mana to spam it. Pack some bandages, and use potions instead of Chivalry. Then, drop parry so you can drink the potions, or parry with a 1-H armor ignorer.

    Weapon/Tactics/Anatomy/Healing

    And it doesn't matter what else you take. Because whatever else you take you will always wish you had more. Because warriors are failures of templates.

    And again my point, that mages have free choice of templates.. mages never struggle to make a perfect template.
     
  8. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

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    Most mage spells are wtfuseful. You disagree, I will totally create food on your arse. Can't tell you how many fights I've won w/ polymorph. Of course, my favorite finishing movie is nightsight...but don't steal my signature move, or I'll sick an air element on your butt.
     
  9. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Since you have added nothing new, aside from a failure of an insult to invite me to fel (from luna of all places, laughable) I will simple tell you not to contradict yourself or to learn English....

    Unfortunately for you "watching" is "viewing" so I did not assume anything, you put it out there in your post.

    You can not define things as "warriors" or "mages" if they combine both. there are no pure warriors and their are no pure mages.

    on another note BEFORE aos, before special moves, mages did not all have wrestling. Explode + war hammer ftw. Btw you could not have mage weapons so you had to actually have macing. There has always been more variation to mages than you give them in the past.

    Next up, with out armor ignore a "warrior" still has the upper hand against the mage, unless you can magic arrow for some sort of incredible amount of damage, Healing+pots+being able to move while doing damage > Casting. You do not need armor ignore to beat a mage, you only need to be able to run faster than they can, or at least at the same pace they can.

    So to recap, do not say you were "participating" after you stated you were "watching"

    *sighs* I really need to stop having intellectual battles with unarmed people....

    Edit: I did not even bother to read your whole thread but just now when I was checking to see what Limlight wrote I noticed you said people don't use counter attack...and they do. They don't use momentum strike cuase its more or less useless in pvp, that would be like spamming nightsight
     
  10. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    I dont know whether I am supposed to laugh or cry.

    So without further ado...


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  11. MoneyMaker

    MoneyMaker Guest

    This thread sounds like someone pancakes about the greener grass over the fence.
    bit of advice: cross the damn fence or get off the fence post.
     
  12. Criblo

    Criblo Guest

    Kind of hard to blame everything on a vague character classification.

    I remember when all you needed to be good at PVP was a GM made hally, and some bone armor.

    The game changes constantly, you'll always have certain templates that annoy you, but I don't think there is a "mage" anymore, just templates that utilize magery.
     
  13. Lady_Calina

    Lady_Calina Lore Keeper
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    I have a pure Mage but she's not nearly as powerful as my Necro/Mage/Weaver.
     
  14. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    I'm not sure who we're fooling as far as how AI spam will be nerfed. The damage is capped...that is enough. A good dexxer can always compete with a good mage. Need to do your research if you do not believe me.
     
  15. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Jesusislord... like I said to those who claim mages to be super overly powerful... I challenge you and you get to use the super powerful mage template of your choice, I will use a inferior underpowered dexer.

    I am a hardcore Mage but if you think mage is really so great I offer you to go to TC, and create any none taming mage you want. I will create a dexer with 120 Weapon, 90 Tactic, 80 Anatomy, 80 Healing, 65 Chiv This is ALL I will use. 435 skill points dexer against your 720 point mage. Field fight, I might not be able to kill you but I can assure you I will NEVER die to you or any mage on an open "field fight" even with just 435 skill point.
     
  16. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    wait wait, mages ruined pvp? mages ARE pvp. learn to play one. :thumbsup:
     
  17. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    ruined the game? ahhhhhhhh doh the bounty system was taken out and now we have LRC!!

    LRC RUINED the game. Don't you miss the days of naked mages?
     
  18. Altec

    Altec Guest

    Mages did not wreck pvp. Its all how you play them plus you leave alot out when you do not consider peoples suits. I have built dexxer suits to gain over 80 skill. So mages are not the problem the problem is how u set up your dexxer. every type of character has its advantages and disadvantages. What you need to do is learn a setups weakness and build your suit to protect that.

    I used to run a scribe mage but they are easy to hit so i ran no lrc instead i had 120 wrestling and 100 parry. about 80 skill was gained off the suit which made him hard to hit and very good in the field
     
  19. Solus

    Solus Guest

    I currently have a Samurai that is quite dominant in pvp and pvm. template is..

    120 bushido
    120 parry
    110 swords
    60 chivalry
    100 healing
    95 anatomy
    100 tactics

    str - 125 (150 with gear)
    Dex - 95 (max 2 hand parry rate stops at 95 dex)
    Int - 20 or 25

    I cast enemy of one, consecrate arms, divine fury, concentration. This gives me bonus dmg, swing speed, chance to hit, chance to parry with hp regen.

    You might say my mana will run out fast, and it does seeing I have only enough mana for my buffs, then Im out. Wrong... I use soul seeker scimitar that leeches far more mana than lightning strike costs which essentially gives me unlimited mana during combat Plus if I honor the opponent, I get full hp and mana when i kill them.
     
  20. 14fenix

    14fenix Guest

    Sorry to break it to you trammie nerds but this game was ruined 8+ years ago.

    Don't be too hard on yourselves now.
     
  21. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    Well , Mages really really need to know what their doing in order to be effective in PvP and trust me its not that easy. Yes, mages have tons of options but you look at a common Bushido swords dexxer.. The options are very minimal , but very damn effective. Fighting them ( if they know what their doing ) you can barely cast a 1 second spell. It really depends on how well you know a template and the person behind the computer.
     
  22. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Nice troll.

    Of course, if it wasn't for Trammel, you'd have been killed plenty of times, while begging the people in caves to tell you how to mine.
     
  23. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    PvM dominant maybe.. but PvP? The only players on your shard are roleplayers roleplaying mongbats?
     
  24. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    The only problem I see is that pure classes are much worse then hybrid classes. I mean, you can be good with them, but they are nothing compared to a hybrid. I'm not really complaining, just pointing it out.
     
  25. 14fenix

    14fenix Guest

    The problem with that is I stopped playing OSI after Ren so you completely fail in that insult. T2A/Ren is the way to go son. No Trammel there.

    Good try though McTrams.
     
  26. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    So, when you came back, the people in caves that you were begging to, to be told how to mine. That was in fel, right?
     
  27. 14fenix

    14fenix Guest

    Of course, where else could it have been Einstein?
     
  28. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Sooo if you haven't even played OSI since then, all your input in any topic on this entire UO board is useless since you haven no experience with all that has changed since then. Which is just about everything.
     
  29. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Lets be truly honest and take a step back and thinkof this.

    If mages where so overpowered, why oh WHY is everyone on stupid fencer archers??

    Now that template is pretty much (besides tamers) the most overpowered temp in game!!!Disarm/bleed/dmount/moving shot.

    Oh and you missed a very good template for mage killing, it what i like to call the pure pally.

    120swords
    120tactics
    120parry
    120chiv
    120med
    120resist

    Solves all problems, can holy light/bleed spam against mages, solid defence(not as solid as bush but still very solid) good offence and pretty much unlimited mana. No para spam, curses last for second, poison hard to stick.

    And on top of all of that you have 1/2s cure/remove curse 3/4s heal, insta refresh on the run, and for the real waffles out there recall on the run!
     
  30. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Uhh... Trammel?
    Since it was only a couple of weeks ago
     
  31. Dain

    Dain Guest

    I believe that the OP's opinion in born from nothing more then complete ignorance on how to form and variate template for PvP.

    All the templates mentioned from the OP are highly traditional and out of date, as if they're copied from a trams guide to PvP during the AoS website.

    I believe that if you went to a Japanese server and observed for a few days you would completely re-evaluate your statements.

    *EDIT*

    To the OP.

    I have 3 account which consist of 11 designated PvP Chars, 5 of which are rather successful dexxers, 3 of which don't even carry an AI wep.
     
  32. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    I surely hope you are talking about PvM and not PvP. You cannot honor an opponent in PvP AND enemy of one doesn't work. The end.
     
  33. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    LOL......Sorry I about fell out of my seat. hahaha...! Yep, beam me up Scottie!
     
  34. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    agreed. I second the motion. It is never just a "mage" any more.