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How will the TAX system work ?

Discussion in 'Shroud of the Avatar Discussion Hall' started by popps, Jun 1, 2014.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I have been trying to read more about the TAX system but without much luck...

    I felt the need to read more about it, since I read that, starting from the Citizen level pledge, one can receive a Tax free Village lot and Citizen home.

    So, I assume, those who do not qualify for this tax free lot, will have to pay a tax.
    But what tax ? How often ? Is there any information about this tax system ?

    Also, it is not clear to me how the vendor system will work. Will there be a global vendor search for the game ? Will only the homes in Villages be able to have vendors ? How will the players' vendors system be handled ?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Ahh Popps... you must come from UO. :)

    Property lots in SotA will be assessed a property tax (some call it rent). There is no info as to how much that tax will be yet. Most likely it will be a monthly fee to keep your property. Lots are fix sizes of varying degrees, not open land like in UO.

    Similarly vendors - a sales tax is assessed by the vendor (some call this fee), and to keep the vendor you must pay the tax. Again, no official word as to the frequency or amount.

    People who are backers at various levels will get the privilege of not having to pay taxes on the lot or the vendor. You must pledge up to those levels to receive the benefit.
    You can only have 1 lot per pledged account - the lots do not stack.

    Vendors will be tied to a house, of course. Houses can only be placed on a lot you are qualified to have. during the Pre-Alpha phase, this is not checked just yet and everyone can test a house - if they can get a lot! It gets crowded sometimes. The Vendor Systems are in place for NPCs right now, but I must assume it will be similar for player owned vendors.

    Lots will be limited in the game... even moreso than it is in UO.
    Lot placement priority is still being worked on, but Darkstarr just posted some interesting news about this here.
     
  3. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Thank you for the informations and link.

    Something which I do not seem to find anywhere about housing, is that I just see reference to lots and their sizes but nothing about their storage capacity.

    Will house lot affect storage capacity and if so, how ? Also, the basements' add ons will be all possible to any and all housing lots or will things differ in this regards ? For example, I seem to understand that there will be going to be up to 3 basement floors available. Say that a player with the smallest lot wants to add 3 basement floors, will that be allowed ? Or will the number of lots that can be added be limited by the lot size ?

    Also, I seem to understand that lots will be limited and, depending on the number of players, it might be that many players will remain without a House. How will this affect their playing the game ?

    I mean, how much will they be limited in their storage capacity, ability to have a vendor and sell their items (especially if they are crafters...) to other players and so forth....

    What I am trying to understand, since quite a large number of lots are going to go away to those who Pledged (especially now with the Pledges' changes where some tiers will be able to receive more than 1 lot....), and that lots will be not enough for all players, how much limited will be the playability of the game (and thus its enjoyment) for those players who will not be able to have a House......

    Thanks.
     
  4. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Housing in SotA consists of several parts:
    1. A Lot. This is the actual land.
    2. A Building. This is the actual house.
    3. A Basement. This is an extension of the house.

    At minimum you need a Lot. There are some people who have "decorated" Lots without even placing a house. You can see some awesome screenies at the SotA forums. There has been a request to allow people to live on boats. That is being discussed, but I don't think vendors will be allowed on a boat. Also, houseboats fall into #2, which need to be placed on a Lot of water for they do not move around - which will be quite limited in availability.

    With the new pledge rewards, Lots are being awarded now at the Ancestor level. The lots available at Ancestor are only for the Row Lots which will be implemented in cities.
    The Lots being awarded via the pledges are NOT stackable. You get one lot with each pledge - that's it. As a person climbs higher in the pledge tiers, their available Lot selection is scaled.

    As an example, I'm at the Edelmann level as a Royal Founder. I am allowed 1 lot which I can claim in either the city (A Row Lot) or in the Town and Village areas (with a Village Lot). That is it. If I want another lot on my account, I will have to purchase it via the AddOn Store and when I claim said purchased lot, I will have to pay taxes (or rent) on it. I do not believe purchased lots will be claimable until after public launch. Also at my level I have Building deeds for a few different styles of houses, in addition to what I purchased via the AddOn Store. I can only place one of those buildings on my lot. The recent announcements did mention having "flexible lots" which will allow for "additional structures" but I do not believe I can use more than one Building deed. I think those "additional structures" will be available through the AddOn Store to add more storage space to a lot.

    There hasn't been any solid word on the actual storage capacity of lots. In every release that I've participated in, I actually crashed several times by overloading the lot I chose. I did that on purpose and I intend to continue crashing the game by overloading the lot - because I know what we do in UO with our pixels. :D

    I'm sure the team will be releasing storage capacity memos sometime with a future release. Right now, they are working on basic systems - specifically I think more on the combat, crafting and spells side of things. I'm pretty sure storage capacity will be scaled to the lot size and might be affected by the type of house and "additional structures" you put on the lot. After all, I do not think it would be fair to have the same storage capacity on a Lord Lot if you have only a cottage as compared to someone with a castle.

    Basements are another grey area of yet. Basements are available in many configurations and are assigned to specific lot sizes. There is a 5-level "miner" basementb (which I intend to purchase) - so no, they are not limited to only 3 levels. At citizen level you get a single story Basement deed (1 level). If I want to get the miner basement, you purchase the deed for all 5 levels. You still have the deed to the single story basement, which I believe you can sell to another player. Again, storage is up in the air of yet.

    Basically, each type of housing unit is a deeded item. There is no "adding on" another level to anything, you have to buy the deed en total.

    At launch, Lots will indeed be at a premium and as such there is a schedule being determined over who gets to claim lots when. At launch, this will be determined by backer contributions. The current thinking is in this thread. However, there is still much discussion going on over the Dev+ forums which I cannot relay. It has been said that there will be enough lots to cover each backer who donated... and perhaps "a little bit more" to allow for people to buy upon public launch. And there will be ways to acquire lots as well as house deeds in the game without the use of money - that is all being planned into the game. There will be steady growth with the "discovery" of more suitable land for habitats - this is not going to be one of those games where we will have to wait a few years for more land. One of the commitments from Portalarium is to ensure the game is scalable with the expected growth.

    Insofar as those who will be "homeless" I can tell you that already people who are interested enough are lining up to existing backers to "rent rooms". I've personally got 3 people wanting to rent a room in my house. That is the joy of it and I believe is intentional... to encourage community. I've also heard rumors of some of the groups who are pooling to purchase their own Player Town (yet another deed type). They will probably "rent" lots, buildings and rooms to other players. Not sure how the systems will work, but it is exciting and interesting to read over the conversations.

    Personally, I have purchased an extra Lot deed which I intend to use on a water lot to place my Houseboat deed (for the houseboats do not move, they are anchored and basically just float there). I will then be renting out my Houseboat to another player. The fee I charge will cover the basic rent I will have to pay for the lot, as well as perhaps a percentage to line my pocket. ;)

    However, I don't know if subletting has been covered yet in the bigger scheme of things, or how housing security will work, etc. Housing is a very key feature of this game and Portalarium is very keen to it - knowing throngs of UO players are backers and we simply adore our houses!
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I am not sure whether I understood it right, but from your post I seem to understand in regards to the points I am concerned with :

    I seem to understand that the storage capacity will be probably scaled depending on the size of the lot. What this does not help me with, is understanding whether even the lowest size house that currently needs a Pledge of 275$ if I am not wrong (I do not know what it will cost at the Store nor what its tax be...), will have a good storage capacity or not. Especially with a new game, not knowing the new items and all that, it will be easy for players to feel that they have to keep all items they find, not knowing whether they can or not be usefull to advance in the game or whether they may be wanted by other players i.e. sellable. Also, I have no idea whether all items will be stackable or not because that also can bring stress to one's own storage capacities.
    Furthermore, I have no idea whether there will be a bank box or storage capacity of any sort besides a house storage capacity (and how good storage capacity it will be...) which can be important for all those players who end up without a House....

    I seem to understand that the lots will be probably sufficient for those many who backed the game and maybe there will be a "little bit more" for other players to allow players to buy them upon launch.
    Well, this "little bit more" sounds to me a bit too vague and I am much worried that in the end it might result in a land rush which is something I just hate. I hated the one in UO when new land opened up for Housing and those with better connections where able to take the best or largest spots. It is not something I want to go through again..... Not for me, I do not like chaotic rushes, I prefer order and well organized things.
    Also, I have difficulties in making an estimate, for all those players who will remain without a house lot, for how long this condition of their game play will last ( I would imagine that only additional land opened up for housing could address this shortage but I cannot have no idea of when this shortage might get address, and whether the "homeless" players would be given any priority at taking new lots over players already owning houses. I really do not like the idea of some home players getting several house lots and other players ending up without a house in the game because of that...I am afraid that this could end up with the homeless players then having to pay an extra price to either rent from current house owners or to buy a house from players who already own one in the game.... Nope, definately this is not the cup of tea I want to get into for a game, an entertainment product....I have already enough stress in my real life, I do not need to add also stress from a game to that....).

    It is also unclear to me how much the lack of owning a house in the game will limit players' game play and enjoyment of the game because of their much reduced storage capacity or ability to place a vendor in a House they own.

    As in for the "rooms for rent", this is also a too much unclear area for me which raises a lot of concerns for me.
    Will rights for the tenants be coded in some form ? For example, let's say that a landlord who owns a house in a lot, leases a room to another player. Will the tenant be enabled to exclusive access to his/her room and his/her belongings ? That is, will the game allow players in the same House to modify the level of security of their storage containers and rooms and prevent the owner of the House to have access to other players' containers/rooms if they wish not so ?

    Will the owner of the House be able to evict the renter and in such case what will happen of all of the renter's belongings that were in the House ? Will the renters be able to set up a vendor of his/her own that only they can control and have access to in the House they have rented a room ?

    And what about leases' terms ? Will they be short, long, freely adjustable by players as they wish ?

    For example, let's say that a player rents a room, stocks up a number of things, but then the lease "expires" and the owner does not want to renew it OR they ask a much higher fee to which the renter does NOT want to agree nor be subject to. What will the renter do with his/her belongings not having anywhere the storage capacity to put them to ?
    And that the same about having a vendor in a rented room House. What happens to the vendor if the lease expires and renting player does not want to renew it because the new terms are not acceptable to them ? What will the renting player do will all of the items kept on the vendor which will need to get removed ?

    Should anything like this happen, I am concerned that this could bring a lot of stress to the game play of many players without a House of their own and effectively limit their enjoyment of the game. Is this going to be addressed somehow ? How ?

    There are lots of other grey things which I have not understood and which so far keep me away from being really interested in this game. For example, I posted in other threads about my preference for a monthly fee pricing structure on multiplayer online games that I may play, and also, that so far I have not read much about how the game will react in case of any cheating from players (be it duping, scripting or whatever else...will there be in this game a zero tolerance policy against cheating ? Are there safeguards in the client which will prevent players somehow to be able to cheat or to be easily caught if they will cheat in the game ?). These, are important things for me in games I may want to play, and without more detailed informations about them, I cannot make my decisions...

    I tend to like to make reasoned and thought on decisions, especially when significative money could be involved, and the lack of informations important to me about this game, so far, do not make it possible for me to decide whether I want to really set up my mind about it (and spend my money on it...).
     
    #5 popps, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  6. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Understandable and justified concerns. I'll look for answers and if I cannot find them, I'll bring these up in the private boards over at their forums. With systems still being developed (remember, this game is still PRE-Alpha), its really hard to answer questions. Sadly, a lot of the systems still being developed are discussed in private boards that I cannot post about anywhere else. :(

    A lot of what is going on with the crowdfunding is faith. Many of the early backers have a lot of faith in RG and his team. I am one of them or I wouldn't have thrown a significant amount of my money at the game. Am I concerned about housing? Damn straight I am! I am a pixel hoarder just like any other person! That is another reason I jumped in early - for my funds come and go rather quick (working for ones' self does that) and I wanted to secure my future enjoyment.

    I remember being introduced to Ultima Online in 1997. I remember the growing pains, the shackles of corporate requirements, the loss of community with the demise of the Counselors & Seers, and the disillusionment I got with the EM program. "Power to the Players" I remember chanting at some events - surprisingly I wasn't squelched. Knowing RG is keeping full control over this game was important to me. If he had some other corporate investor (EA, Microsoft, etc.) involved, I'd have been less likely to put up money. I am aware he has "angel investors" and there are several individuals who have donated thousands personally - this is not just "a game" to some, but a serious investment.

    What specifically got me into backing this game over so many others is that I played many of RG's early Ultimas. I remember the immersion I got, the challenges I faced, and the satisfaction I received. Knowing what the man is capable of got me started. The rest of the team (particularly Tracy Hickman) involved got me hooked.

    I view this as an investment in my future gaming enjoyment. If it pans out, awesome! If not, well... lesson learned. I'll be more hesitant in the future with investing early on in games. Just like any investment there are risks. There is a lot going on with SotA and Portalarium. Can I justify anyone else's investment into this game? Not really... I can speak about what I know, what I am allowed to share, and what I experience. It is up to each individual to take that leap of faith.

    As things move forward and are made public, the team here at Stratics does its best to let our communities know. That goes for each game we participate in and write about. With each SotA release, I stream live either on the Stratics.TV channel or my own personal channel at kirthag.com. I follow up as best I can with articles, video highlights or here on the forums as my time allows.

    I'll see about getting public answers for some of these for yes, they concern a whole lot of people. Thank you for asking! :)
     
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  7. Laisidhiel

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    You can only have one lot per pledge account? I thought you could have as many as you purchase. Or, are you referring to tax-free lots? At higher tiers you are rewarded with two lots. I wonder if both lots are tax-free?
     
  8. Laisidhiel

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    BTW, as a player, your belongings are attached to your account. I don't think an owner can boot a renter and keep their things. I believe those things would go into your bank account. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  9. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Hi Laisidhiel!
    A lot of the more current conversations are over on the SotA forums. You might get more info there. :)
     
  10. WrathPhoenix

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    Taking a stab at answering some of this...

    The way the tax system will work that we know of, is that it will allow you to "Pay ahead" for rent, and rent will be based on the size of your lot. Rent does NOT go to town owners if you live in a player owned town.

    If you are living in a player owned town and the owner boots you, then your deeds and items go back to you into your bank. A player owned town owner will not be able to access anything of yous without your express permission.

    You are limited to owning three houses in NPC towns or Player Run towns but you can have as many as you want in Player Owned Towns and the two land types are not mutually exclusive... meaning you can have 3 in npc towns and a bunch of others in PoT's too.

    The devs will be looking to allow us to make individual rooms and boxes have permissions so you can rent a room to another player if you want. That will be a transaction strictly between you and the owner of the building though - and in that situation you probably WOULD be authorizing the building owner to be able to access your room since they have rights to the entire building. The owner of the house would also in this instance be able to evict you and i wouldnt know what happens with your stuff (its not designed yet) but thats probably gonna be a situation that could leave you exposed. (buyer beware! :) )

    And yes, storage space is based on lot sizes. The bigger the lot, the more containers. Each container type will EVENTUALLY have its own storage limits - but they do not right now.

    I am a player town owner and have tested many of the properties and features, so most of the above with the exception of room rentals I can speak to from personal experience or from developer statements of recent.
     
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  11. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    an corp!
     
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  12. Sean

    Sean Slightly Crazed
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    AN Corp, and basements are actually your best bet for storage, they are in a seperate "instance" and do NOT have the limitations of above ground storage.

    Basements are the best bang for the buck in game for storage IMHO. A row lot currently costs $100 in addon store, a 5 story row basement runs $34.

    Taxes will apply on addon store lots, there is no seperate tax on the basement. From what I'm hearing taxes will be due every 2 weeks and s/b no problem for row/village lot owners. Town and city will require a major effort for any single person to pay. Those size lots were always thought of as "group" sized lots.

    I'll add more as I come across it.
     
    #12 Sean, Jan 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
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  13. Kirthag

    Kirthag Former Stratics Publisher
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    Aye, I love my basement - use it for storage and have all my other stuffs "on display" in the meager home this citizen owns.
     
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  14. Envy

    Envy SotA Forum Moderator
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    The first pass on the tax system suggests daily rates as follows:

    Row- 50gold
    Village- 100gold
    Town- 200gold
    City- 400gold

    Doesn't seem too bad to be honest, probably something like 30min gold collecting a day for city sized.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Elnoth

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    Some of you may have read this article, which has some interesting information from RG:

    $12,000 castles and $2100 deeds - inside Shroud of the Avatar's booming housing market

    Quote from the article:

    How much rent you'll be charged isn't nailed down because, and this so sums up for me what Garriott is trying to achieve with his little toy world in a fantasy bubble, the value of gold hasn't settled yet. "We haven't set the final number because we don't really know what the value of a gold piece is until the economy has been running a little longer," he says. "But the intent is that if you're an active player fighting and mining and trading, you should be able to pay for a row lot - it's plenty, plenty of space for you to collect and display all of the trophies of your existence - with 10 hours a month or so of your time." There will also be the option of paying rent with real money.

    I think it is important to note that you can pay for the rent with real money. Since SOTA has no subscription fee, ongoing costs will have to be funded with add-on store purchases, and paying rent will be one of those purchases you can make.
     
  16. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Adventurer

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    It also lets you farm up gold and pay advanced rent for quite a long time period.
     
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