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How would you balance weapon specials?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by KLOMP, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I ask not because I want to play armchair developer, but because I really don't know. Here's what I have so far.

    Armor Ignore: Don't try and nerf it. God I'm already the only guy in every group who actually gets close enough to be hit by the monster, leave me alone.

    Every Other Move: Make them as good as Armor Ignore or I still won't notice their existence.
     
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  2. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I would agree, when I did my special move review I also stated that Armor Ignore needs more competition. I believe that when possible balance changes should always be done with the intent of avoiding the "nerfs" and have the goal of increasing player choices. In this particular instance (AI) there are certainly a myriad of sub par weapon specials to choose from and hopefully give us new options.
     
    #2 ShadowTrauma, Jan 30, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
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  3. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Hopefully they try to scale most specials to be as good as Armor Ignore... instead of Nerfing Armor Ignore, to be like most specials.

    I would really like to see the old specials come back as well (Pre-AoS 2-handed-melee-weapon only specials) I believe the chance for a special to go off was 25% of your Anatomy skill.
    Specials didn't take mana, but instead they were all basically a hit-spell effect.

    Two-Handed Swords/Axes - Concussion Blow (cut the targets intelligence in half for about 5 seconds or so) Similar to the way Concussion works now, but instead of restoring your mana after a short time, you had to regenerated it, as if you spent half of your mana pool.

    Two-handed Fencing - Stun for about 2 seconds (Unbreak-able Stun, similar to Mysticism's Bombard spell) just a higher proc chance.

    Two-handed Maces - Crushing blow (50% more damage)

    If they came back, there should probably be some kind of Anti-Special-Stack implemented as well, to stop the Chance of proc-specials from going off when a special move is toggled to land on the next hit. (2 Crushing blows might be a little overpowered if they were stacked into one hit.

    There's not really any telling until it hits TC1 for anyone to know for sure. (I don't see the Dev's going into detail with this before it goes to TC1.) :sad3:
     
  4. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    I think that's going back too far. The only shard I could see that being put in on and I wouldn't care is siege, just because they already have rules from different eras that dont make sense. IE items with properties but no insurance. Should be all or nothing like it was on osi during pub 16, or like it is now. Same goes for the specials, no point in going back that many eras/pubs.
     
    #4 Speaking the Truth, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  5. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I know I'd like Crushing Blow to become a contender, just because I'm a macer and it's on 75% of all the weapons I can use. Right now it doesn't even stack with Perfection though, so past the first few hits it does LESS damage than a normal hit.
     
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  6. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Any answer I would give would be heavily weighted towards the weapons I favor.

    I am not alone on this. I may, however, be nearly alone in admitting it.

    -Galen's player
     
    #6 GalenKnighthawke, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  7. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Tweak weapon damages and make them matter..a war axe is more powerful than a Kryss therefore it's specials should also show that..AI for 40+ to make up for speed
     
  8. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    I've got a few thoughts on weapons. Take in mind most of these ideas are for pvp but i don't see any reason it would effect pvm.

    -Balanced property should be removed and all weapons in game have the ability to chug potions. (It doesn't take 2 hands to carry an axe, bow or stick around)

    -If not then 2 handed weapons should have a full extra mod with enough weight to put balanced on them.

    -Concussion should para target for x amount of time with damage based off how much INT opposing target has.
    -Lance should dismount anyone if you're on mount. (if i ride toward you with a lance and you don't have one shouldn't you fall?)
    -Crushing blow..i would put this to work like word of death. Target gets under X% health you deal a crushing blow to finish it.

    -Forgot about Honorable execution which has long been broken. It should work, even in pvp.

    Something i've been thinking about would be a new reforge option to switch up the specials on weps. It would give a random generator so you couldn't get what you wanted right off.
     
    #8 Lythos-, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  9. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    I'd focus on making 2 handed weapons nice again by adding something extra to their attacks such as:

    AOE, the following weapons will automatically attack everything in the front 180 degrees of the character:
    * War Hammer
    * Tetsubo
    * No-Dachi
    * Double Bladed Staff
    * Layatang

    - Significantly increased damage proportional to Lumberjacking skill when not mounted while wielding axes

    - Range extended to 2 for
    * Pike
    * Halberd
    * Spear
    * Bladed Staff
    * Bardiche
    * Scythe
    * Pitchfork
    * Gnarled Staff
    * Black Staff
    * Quarterstaff
    * Crook
     
  10. SoulWeaver

    SoulWeaver King of The Bearded Ladies
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    Make two handers have the balanced property like bows.... that would help and adjust the specials to be more like armor ignore damage
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    The main problem, as I see it, is how special moves use mana--or don't. Armor Ignore is amazing if you leech mana because if you roll the leech you can chain AIs to no end. I'd argue feint is just as important for tough fights--like the Stygian Dragon--but it's hard to compete with pure DPS.

    Assuming they keep mana usage the same, it'll be hard to see how they could bring other specials up to par with Armor Ignore in the context of PvM. They would have to increase the AI (artificial intelligence), or create situations in which you need to mortal wound or bleed the target. And of course, the undead can't be bled, so there's that. I guess you could mortal Lady Melisande at the end of a fight, but she'll still spirit speak through the mortal. Maybe you shouldn't be able to do that? :/ but I think you should. Of course, that's a pre-apple debate.

    That's one thing I never really understood in the context of PvM, people using mortal on top end or event-made monsters. Either it should last longer for PvM plus degrade spirit speak heal potential or the mana usage should be tweaked.
     
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  12. Mentiras

    Mentiras Sage
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  13. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Apologize if these ideas repeat previous ideas, but here are my thoughts:

    Crushing Blow (PVE): Apply a 60 physical cap to target for the next 10 seconds, or counter Defense Mastery by removing its buff. 60 second cooldown for PvP.
    Concussion Blow (PVP): Reduce target's focus and meditation skills by 50% for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown.
    Defense Mastery (PVE): Increase physical cap to 80 for 10 seconds, or counter a Crushing Blow by removing the curse. Also add +10 DCI for duration. 60 second cooldown for PvP.
    Disarm (PVE): Add a 30 second cooldown for PvP.
    Force of Nature (PVE): Have the special actually summon a Nature's Fury. 15 second cooldown.
    Frenzied Whirlwind (PVE): Have it work like regular Whirlwind, with the mana reduction from having Bushido.
    Mortal (PVE): Reduce spirit speak and heals to target by 50% for 10 seconds. 120 second cooldown for PvP.
    Moving Shot (PVP): Add a 10 second cooldown for PvP.
    Paralyzing Blow (PVE): Reduce DCI and HCI by 10 for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown for PvP.
    Psychic Attack (PVE): Reduce target's Spell Damage Increase, Eval Int, and Focus by 50% for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown for PvP.

    Oh, and cooldowns are for the new passives, not the move itself (unless no new passive is noted, like for disarm, and moving shot).
     
    #13 G.v.P, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  14. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    It could be going back a bit too far, but as I said it should be only two-handed weapons as it was before. Sacrifice defense (pots) for an unmatched offense, of course it's not hard to switch to one handed weapons if you really need to chug any pots. but being disarmed with a two-handed weapon equip, you can't re-arm a shield/one-handed weapon to stop yourself from being hit. and parry is completely useless disarmed as well if you were disarmed while using a two-handed weapon.

    I would rather not see two-handed weapons get the "balanced" property, consumable items hurt pvp just as much as everyone having ninjitsu for Animal form does (IMO), They have too much power Imo. (mostly aimed at cure pots) but I guess people don't really need them anymore unless you fight someone with DP... ooh my mistake, everyone does roll with Poisoning.
    If two-handed weapons were to get "balanced" even if it was a imbuing-free mod (taking 0 item weight & 0 properties). Two-handed weapons still wouldn't compare to ANY one-handers, Mainly because of the properties of shields now, and how Base Speed + SSI + Dex work. two handed weapons just aren't worth using.

    I would also rather Not see extra range added to melee weapons (unless the wielder would need to stop like an archer/thrower to attack, which would completely defeat the purpose)
    think of pvp in tram (O/C) a dexer being able to run through you would be worse than a thrower with unlimited mana for running shot.

    Obviously this could be all wrong because I have no clue what the Dev team has in store other than a "revamp" of Weapons & Armor.

    I just want melee dexers to be-able to compete again, without the only template for pvp being based around Nerve-Strike/Death-Strike+DP (which are ridiculously easy to kill, even when the berserk suit was categorized as OP...)

    That diversity... you can never have too much of it.
     
  15. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    Really? Disarming Splintering Weapons with Infectious strike + Dismounting Throwers with Mortal spam has already ruined pvp as it is... Now you feel you need the ability to dismount while being mounted????? That's insane.


    IMO Dismount or Mounts should just be removed from the game.
     
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  16. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    I'm speaking in terms of what makes sense. If i ride at you with a lance shouldn't you fall off your mount if you don't block the shot reguardless if you have a lance or not?

    Not that it matters. 95% of the pvp base has ninja and only plays FotM temps anyway.

    PvP has already been ruined for a long time already. Here's some examples.
    -trap boxes to take the place of resist
    -EO Para
    -stone form
    -cleansing winds
    -tamer hybrids
    -throwers period
    -casting focus
    -the use of animal form
    -healing stones
     
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  17. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    I agree with all of that... accept the lance haha :)
     
  18. Kage

    Kage Crazed Zealot
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    Oh and don't forget the ability to toggle specials while casting! Ruined my favorite templates Wrestle Mage & Fencer Mage :((((((((
     
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  19. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Not just mages, but there's basically no such thing as a necro-dexer for pvp anymore, chiv-dexers are somewhat useful because of its casting speed cap, and since chivalry spells can't be overcasted (same with mysticism).

    I keep bringing it up that should be reverted!, that alone would open up Soooooooooooo many more templates. I still can't believe it's been this long without that being reverted... and still waiting...
     
  20. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    What I just want right now.....Is to see what they have in-mind. For armor and weapons I mean. They've said or implied both are coming up.

    My fear is that they are trying to squeeze in too many things into this Publish. I base this fear on my understanding Mesanna's letter to mean that advanced tinkering and the weapons/armor stuff are both going to be in the next Publish, then one of the other team members said that advanced tinkering wasn't ready to go yet . . . That makes me think that they perhaps are ready for other things but not for advanced tinkering and want to hold back both so they can do them at the same time.

    And in response to this I suggest.....I'd really rather not have a an "everything but Yule Brenner" publish right about now. Not after the issues with the bug squishing publish, and not with us potentially have to get used to major equipment changes.

    It's ok to do advanced tinkering and armor/weapons changes in separate publishes. Really.

    If I'm mis interpreting them and they are in the mood to correct me they can feel free to do so. I'd be curious, as always.

    But either way, how I'd change things at this point is way, way less relevant than what they are thinking.

    -Galen's player
     
  21. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Thing is if they nerf leeching, there's no good reason not to throw in the towel on melee completely and just go thrower or something. Monsters all hit too hard, presumably to force tamers with greater dragons to have to actually vet. I'm not landing one or two hits as a leech-nerfed melee and then running off to stand in the corner and heal/regen for a while. I'm just not.
     
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  22. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I guess what I'm thinking is why can I just keep spamming AI as long as I have 30 mana? And why would I use other specials at 30 mana when I can just use AI? Why does every viable PvM weapon need Hit Mana Leech? When we first got special moves they were RNG controlled. Then we were given the chance to use them strategically. The problem is leeching takes out the strategy all together. Then it's just build the right weapon--one with HML--and win.

    What if they increased the potential of hit life leech, or made dexterity matter more and give innate DCI or evasion something? Some other reason to build an item that doesn't have mana leech. The end of one thing doesn't have to spell the end of melee dexxers. For example, say Crushing Blow applies an on hit cap of 60 physical to target for 10 seconds, and Concussion Blow reduces target's focus and meditation skills by 50% for 10 seconds. Add Hit Mana Drain instead of Mana Leech and now you have a target that's going to run out of mana pretty quick if you have a Maul. Then increase the amount of life HLL takes back and figure you'll get better than average leech against high end monsters if you can bring their physical cap down to 60. Still won't compete with the way AIs work, currently, but I'm just spitballing.
     
  23. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Everything hits too hard. That's the one imbalance that drives everything else. If I could put on the best armor in the game and survive more than two or three hits from an important boss, I wouldn't need to leech back half my life on every swing.

    I mean yeah if you buffed life leech out the wazoo I guess I'd survive without spamming Armor Ignore, but under the circumstances you describe I probably wouldn't bother using anything else either. I'd just take my hands off the keyboard and autoattack everything to death while reading a book, because who cares about applying some crummy debuff two times a minute to a monster with 99999999999 HP that I'm going to be wailing on for an hour anyway?
     
    #23 KLOMP, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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