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I can't fight my brother?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sevin0oo0, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    as prev stated...
    war is war, regardless of 'where' it occurs - that's why I think Faction fighting should occur in tram on enabled shards, with NO call guards on other faction members.

    REGARDLESS...
    Numerous wars, globally, have found real brothers on opposite sides. I think of Guild like Family, just as brothers are, and sometimes, for various reasons, they end up on opposite sides (faction). It should be allowed in UO. As a measure of checks and balances, there should be limitations to this - you don't get anything extra for killing your guild mate, looting rights is all.

    NOT just a Siege issue, I quote a typical example of why the current rule is wrong.

     
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  2. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    Agreed. And while you're at it, make all facets the fel. ruleset and ban trash talking and leet speak (U mad bro?). Then lets work from there.
     
  3. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    in a way, shouldn't they be to faction members?

    as prev posted...
    "Hey! There's one of them Minax dudes, it's Tram so let's go give him some sugars. But as soon as he steps thru that gate, Kill that SOB!"
    Seem silly? Is that Not the current rule?
     
  4. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    In old days, this defenders would join up with defenders from other mixed guilds to take care of the PK's who was attacking the guild, the player town, the miners, the PvM'ers.
    I could see the whole guild be in faction but then faction would need some changes.
    NPC towns should not be a fighting ground as the crafters need to be able to craft at places as the quens forge and in old days, you would see crafters offering their servisce at the npc's in brit.
    On Siege faction works on all facets so with town fights there are no safe places for the crafters if they join faction. That's not good.
    Or only the defenders of the guilds should be in faction.
    I also believe there should be different rules for the factions, one or two faction should be red and the rest blue.

    You can't just split players in PvP'er or non PvP'er. Some want PvP all the time and anywhere, some want some PvP but do also enjoy PvM or crafting. Some like to be adressore in PvP, others would never attack an other player but will fight back.
    We can force all in the first group, who want PvP all the time.

    Also if the PvP'ers are using factions artifacts, they don't need the crafters and the PvM'ers and the crafters and PvM'ers lost their customers and their defenders.
    I believe it must be possible to find a solusion that will work both on Siege on normal shards.
     
  5. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Changes faction so:
    1. It works on all facets
    2. Town fights are only allowed in the factions towns
    3. Make some newbie spot no faction fight zone too on the Trammel facet, not the other facets
    4. Make one or two red faction, the rest blue. The blue faction should not be allowed to attack each other, the red can attack any faction.

    Now guild can choose to join and they will come close to have fel on all facet.
    The ones who do not join will still have their trammel zone on all but one facet
     
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  6. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I do too.
    currently, are there any 'safe areas' on siege? I can see why they put guard zones in other shards, it's just a way to let crafters kinda 'sneek' into town for a little business?
     
  7. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    Oh I wasn't being sarcastic with my post. I agree with your post and think it should be taken further than that. I still am trying to find out why they removed faction fighting from Trammel. And for that matter, why Trammel was created. I mean, there are guardzones for those who don't like being attacked.
     
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  8. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes if not in faction, towns are somewhat safe. A GM thief may success steal from you in town and it do happen players get killed in town too before the guards can react.
    Faction and warring guilds can fight in town.
    I do believe more would be willing to accept guild war or join faction if they still was safe in town.
    Reds can go to town on Siege but they can't attack blue there. Blue can attack red in town and the red are allowed to fight back.
    We do have alot on Siege who never do PvP and not even try to fight back if attacked. Some did choose Siege to become a successful crafter running vendors and taking orders from players. They accept the risk for dying and do have both blue and red customers.
     
  9. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    newbie, non-faction area could be Haven - maybe (SP only) add a regular imbuing forge there?
     
  10. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes there are guard zones but they also wanted to go to dungeons or traveling the land without being killed of other players.
    The game need to be playable both for them who like PvP as a part of the game and for them who only want to fight the mobs.

    One thing more, I think the one in faction should have 2 x resource/fame spawn as Fel have now. It would be a good carrot to make them join but not force them as they also would have more risk for losing their loot bag before they got home.
     
  11. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    On Siege we don't have the Trammel facet so we don't have Haven. I don't think we need this newbie spot on Siege.
    I was thinking of first level of covetous on the Trammel facet and maybe some gravyard.
    About the towns, I never understod why fights have to be in town unless maybe the 8 factions towns in Felucca
     
  12. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I think the majority liked what the safe zones offered, so much that they wanted it expanded. Many seemed to like the Order/Chaos, myself included, and I thought it should replace factions, not really much difference, 2, 3, or 10 sides, once it hit a high number, it's essentially Guildwars. Whether that should return and if it should replace factions would certainly be a valid discussion.
     
  13. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    Yeah that's the standard argument. But the game was playable for both, IMO. Maybe some more tweaking was needed, but not totally taking it out of the equation by creating PvP-free lands.

    Most players today don't know what a thrill it was to be dungeon crawling and then ambushed by a pack of PKers and manage to escape, or play a miner with combat skills to surprise that pesky thief who is thinking 'easy ingots'. I still play and house in Fel to this day, non-pvp. I'm still called a Trammie. Hehe. I farm Dungeon Ice and Dungeon Wrong, ready to evade PKers with my stealther mage. But I never see any.

    If I had a better ping to Siege, I would greatly consider trying it. Although I think the production shards set the standard, so Siege to me is just one step above freeshards.
     
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  14. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I agree but we can't go back, it's to late.

    I do remember and loved it but I also know, some players will never feel like us and never understand it.

    I had tryed to play my old shards but I get bored in Trammel zone and Fel had changed too, the community there is gone.
    Your connection can't be worse than mine was, when I started on Atlantic year 1997 on dial up from Denmark. I was very lagged but did still have fun
     
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  15. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I think the guild system should have some kind of way to choose certain options and it should be broken down into what most guilds are or what the ideal situation for what a guild should be.

    So, take good guilds and evil guilds, I think would be the headline so, you would pick that as your main set up. You might add neutral and then you can set karma requirements.

    So, then without going into to much detail, the next thing you would do is, pick your Faction. Now, maybe the problem here is that everybody in the guild becomes a Faction member. Maybe there should be some type of option where you could control the number of Faction players. The same with warring with other guilds. So, essentially a list would be created where you would have the ability to pick if you wanted to participate or not.

    So, this option might be on the player's side. So, say i'm the guildmaster and I pick TB and you join my guild. It shows you that we are TB and there is an option for you to decide if you would like to participate in Factions or not. If you select yes, then that character will show the TB tag. If you select no, then you will not be part of Factions but you will still be able to be in a guild that is aligned with a Faction.

    You would not be able to have 2 Faction alignments in 1 guild but this would allow you to open up PvP across boarders of different Facets.

    But there is alot more that could be done with the guild system but this is one thing that I think might help solve some of the problems. It would work on Seige but it probably wouldn't matter as much if you chose to be in the Faction or not. So, the system would work in both places and could be expanded on greatly.
     
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  16. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Don't call it factions. Don't even link it to factions. Too much baggage attached. Call it something else . . . Order/Chaos or something . . . Make it work like snow balls: anyone participating can be hit, anyone not participating cannot.
     
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  17. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I do not think the old guard systems worked, you had a small space around citys and guards got buggy alot.

    They could do a better job now with guards and have them even work in side dungeons and have npcs and spawns that could help the playes .. so you can hunt with out a large group of ppl wiating to just kill you over and over everyday.

    That was most of it THAT was making life bad for everyone but the pks. You could not hunt , you were ok in town but thats was a small space to spend your life really and they still could find ways to kill you.
     
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  18. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes changes to the guildsystem could be a way to go, I like that idea and believe me, even on Siege it would matter if you choose to be in faction or not. In faction you would have alot more enemies and not be safe in town.
    I believe it would make more guilds join faction.
     
  19. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    That's where a developer comment could add a lot - they can suggest what button that could be added to make it happen, but it also should be discussed if that's the right direction in the first place. Simpler is better, as is something closer to what we have currently, in order to keep the resources required to a minimum.

    Unlike the BS spouted by the Herald about a developer "discussion" thread, I don't think they are prone to do that, because the topics keep getting hijacked and personal wants inserted instead of what's good for the future, for All. Even if they said button doable, or a No Go, least we wouldn't be just spinning our wheels.
    They've held discussions in the past, maybe private, but I'm not sure they went well. uHall is like the TC for ideas. Hash out the problems, come up w/ a general plan and throw it here to see how it flies.
     
  20. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I think maybe the guardzones around some towns could had included some newbie spawn like the gravyards and maybe a little more mining spots. Also think the first level of the dungeons should had been protected of guards but they should allow reds there but not allow attacking of players.
    Still that's the past, now it's about the future
     
  21. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

     
  22. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    dis·cus·sion   [dih-skuhsh-uhn]
    noun
    an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.

    dis·cuss   [dih-skuhs]
    verb (used with object)
    1.
    to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions; debate: to discuss the proposed law on taxes.
     
  23. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Housing.
     
  24. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Ok... Here is something I never have understood...

    I'm an RPer..... often we war other RP guilds... we PvP where ever when ever.

    So color me stupid or what..... but how come all you OooooOoo I want fel everywhere folk don't just make guilds called something I don't know like FD for Fel Dudes... and fight and war other guilds who have the same interest??????

    It's always available in-game.... if you want that sooo bad and you think that there are others like you who want that..... just do it. Make guilds and war one another.

    I personally could care less if they closed Fel tomorrow... but you don't see me posting all over saying OMG they should just do away with Fel... Granted sometimes I feel that way especially when it seems every other post gets hijacked into a Fel vs Tram debate.... or a pretram debate. I'm sooo very sick and tired of hearing about it...

    And finally once again I will remind you all that if FEL were so darned wonderful and popular.... Siege and Mugen would be THE most populated shards.... but since we can all see that they are not..... we know that having Fel everywhere is NOT what the majority of players want.
     
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  25. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I see, you do not understand :)
    You are welcome in this thread but do not try to turn it into a hateful Fel/Trammel debat.
    You say you do guildwars and PvP that way then you may know a little about the issue we debat here, even when we speak about guilds and factions.
    Try to cool down and read what the thread really is about.
    Are your whole guild always willing to join a war?
    Do you have members who like PvP and members who would like to stay out?
    This ideas we are debatting here won't changes much for you as you still can choose who to war.
     
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  26. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What? :eyes: we are not?

    Fel players do not generally want to play Siege/Mugen. The reason they choose not to play Siege/Mugen... Well, it is not to their taste. There is no insurance is generally the main reason. One character per account is another. Most folks misunderstand the training system Siege has...

    They also claim that not having a house is a major set back... *shrugs*

    To be honest... all you other shards can keep yer Fel players. Those types rarely succeed on Siege anyway.

    So anyway... My point. Please stop comparing Fel players to Siege players. Thank you.
     
  27. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    I think you're jumping to some typical conclusions here. I'll try to address them here.

    1. People who think the Fel ruleset should be THE only ruleset aren't necessarily saying anything about whether they personally want to PvP or not. They are thinking of the bigger picture. A lot of us think the predator/victim aspect should be a part of a game world that is designed to be a sandbox where you're thrown into and given the choice on what to do and what you stand for, rather than just a collecting/house designing game where some of us socialize, some of us explore and experiment. In fact, I think the social aspect is far more superficial now that one player can't attack another or form an alliance against a common foe. That's why Siege exists, although I think a special shard should have been made for consensual-only pvp, not the other way around

    2. Siege not being popular says little about whether it's the best ruleset or not. It is less popular because it is the "alternative" shard, as opposed to production shards being the shard "standard". If they had instead made the Siege ruleset the standard shard and made the current production model the alternative shard, I'm fairly confident that we would still see low numbers in the alternative shard.

    3. If you give "peaceful" players a choice between a Fel. facet and a Tram. facet, of course the vast majority of them are strategically going to choose to operate in a facet with less risk. Just as if you give everyone the option to turn on invulnerability, they would. But that doesn't mean that invulnerability, or Tram, is the best setup in a good game with the potential to be a great game.

     
  28. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    My point is when I"m in Fel I"m all for PvP.... When I'm NOT in Fel stay outta my face. I don't want Fel in Tram. If you want to say that the gear can only be used in Fel fine.... go for it.... but don't make Tram Fel. I go to Tram to get away from that BS.

    And yes the whole guild is in the war... it's a WARRED guild... they know that perfectly well before joining. Just like before you join a guild that is in Factions you have to join the Faction... we are at war.... therefore if you join you know we are at war..... and coincidentally in Factions as well.

    But I know what you are discussing and I'm saying keep your Fel in Fel..... leave Tram out of it....... if you want to say keep the Faction arties in Fel that's fine.... but I think you will then find that most don't care to "re-equip" their characters.... and you will not see any increase in Faction activity if you make such a rule. Infact willing to bet that you will see less...

    As well if you make it so Faction fighting can be done on any facet.... I'm going bet that you see vast numbers of folk quitting factions.
     
  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    This was an experiment in behavior that was proven NOT to work. There are FAR too many Bad apples ruinning the pie... why do you all think we got Tram in the first place????? Because if Trammel didn't happen UO would NOT be here anymore. I really would rather not debate that issue...

    The sandbox is still the sandbox because if I wanted nothing but "risk" and PvP I'd stay in Fel or on Siege. But since UO is the Sandbox it is...... I can live in Trammel and not have to care about Fel.

    Yes it would have been decent if special shards "could" have been made for consensual PvP but that didn't happen and it isn't going to change....
     
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  30. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Again... Please leave Siege out of your radar. We are not Fel.
     
  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I know... The devs still think we are fel. We are Felucca, Malas, Tokuno, Ilshenar and Ter Mur. We were created before Trammel came to be.
     
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  32. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    See I didn't even know all of that stuff about Siege. And I've always believed in playing just one character and not had much use for a house.

    That 70ms ping increase may not be enough to keep me away if I can find a guild to show me the ropes there.
     
  33. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Ok I got that, you want PvP in Fel and Trammel free for PvP. It may work for some.

    Yes I believe faction should work on all facets just like guildwar do. I'm not debatting if Factions items only should be in Fel or on all facets but I never had any problem with factions using them on all facets on Siege, only them using them to PK non factions enemies.

    Yes unless you make it so not the whole guild have to join and town fighting only are allowed in the 8 factions towns in Fel. I believe most real PvP'ers want to PvP everywhere.

    Sure I could be wrong
     
  34. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    What if they added in new land where factions could go and fight or we will say the land was open for pvp. If you wanted to go tho you would have to leave your guild so you could join a faction. That would seem unfair right?

    Think about guilds with friends and brothers and sisters, the way it is now they have to make a choice to leave them to be in a war guild so they can go and smith and tailor. they are split up and no longer are part of the same thing. they have anther world where nothing is the same and they are forced to be apart. this must cause ppl to not like the game as much as if they could stay with there friends and stay with the ppl they love and care about.

    So if ideals split ppl then they hurt us all even if means some ppl must die we have to think about the fact so many others may live.

    Its not about fel and tram its about you and me. I know that might not mean alot but if you turn your back pon everyone you will have no one left. We need to make sure we are NOT doing that with systems that could have a small tweek that might change everything. Its always going to be the thing that is right there in front of us that we miss and thats all it will take to hold back whole shards and even complete rule sets from working in a way our numbers grow and not turn into nothing.
     
  35. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Just join General chat when you get there and ask for the guild NEW, Newborn on Siege. It's a player runned guild who help newbies getting started but you will find alot others too, who are willing to help you with some start gear and maybe a little gold.
    Also make a post on Siege forum and say hi.
     
  36. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

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    I never saw it proven NOT to work. Mishandled, yes. But you're right, this is a debate that's been had many times, this really isn't the time or place for it.
     
  37. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *nods* Ye would be welcomed more than ye fathom... We are not all cut throats. If fact... those are the minority.

    Those few that do PK... The most will pick ye up, give a word of encouragement and send ye on yer way.

    Some few are true Fel players... They will kill ya. and kill ya again... Take all yer stuff. We try to keep these players in check.
     
  38. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I agree, we need to be careful what we do to the shards, a little mistake can easy make thing worse.
    I had seen guilds split up in a faction and a non faction guild and try still to be like one guild. It did fail. The guilds died.
    I think it's importen to keep the family together even when some of them had choosen to join the military
     
  39. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    That's what I'm talking about!
    While I would give factions more leeway in where they can fight, that would be a different thread.
    And it really has nothing to do w/ Fel, Tram, Siege, Gear, or any of that. This one is about family, guilds, and warring factions.

    Some wanted there to not be opposing faction members in the same guild, well, You won, you Got it!
    It split and broke guilds. People left guilds, people left factions. Some left the game.
    Was that the intended result??? I've heard nobody say Yeah, cool change, worked well.
    What I hear is people saying I don't have anybody to play with. Well no Duh
    I'm asking what/how the heck does it matter, as long as they don't gain from each other?
    Or maybe there's a big reason for this, tell me, and i'll go do the *face palms* thing, because so far I've not heard anything but negatives about it all.

    Another story, but...
    An effort was made once to eliminate the "blue pker" who would simply murder people until red, then macro off murders to become blue again,I'd venture to say the person behind those characters still plays that way. You didn't solve anything. You forced them to become macroers - and now that you have them, plus scripters, you want it all go away? Ain't happening on it's own. All you did was limit where a perma red can legally play his game, there's NO incentive to do otherwise. You're giving a forced playstyle - if you like forced, take your pick of which grind to do, be happy, go in peace.
    Devs are finding ways to deal with AFK mob farmers, should have used those methods to deal with PK, reds and factions
     
  40. Amber Witch

    Amber Witch Slightly Crazed
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    My suggestion is to not worry about ping. Just go play and have fun! I think ping is highly overrated.
     
  41. Sauteed Onion

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    Meow, I haven't looked into Siege a lot, but I have read with interest a few things here and there, and know there is a guild dedicated to helping newcomers to Siege, and I believe it's called NEW of all things. Meow. hope this helps, and you make many tasty connections with people.
     
  42. O'Brien

    O'Brien Thought Police

    Joined:
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    Done. I've officially started on Siege. :D
    Made a new character, Joined NEW, who gave me an introduction to Siege, some equipment, and some direction, and now finding out what it's like to start as an unfunded tailor (sheep pen & polar bear farming FTW!)
    Siege has a close-knit community that has already proven to be responsive and eager to help a newcomer. I have yet to see any trash-talking yet in General Chat. I recommend the experience to everyone.
     
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  43. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron The DarkOutlaws, TDO

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    Tasty connections could happen, one of the shards old vampires just came back after a long break :devil:, so careful when the sun goes down.
     
    Sauteed Onion likes this.