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I don't usually post ideas here but in regards to tamers....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by archite666, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Ok first and formost, I am not one of those people always posting outlandish ideas here without knowledge of the game and with a very one sided opinion.

    With that said, I have a idea for taming in regards to pvp. Now I am of course a Siege player so this could apply to Siege only, i'm sure we wouldn't mind being the test dummy for this.

    So time and time again on Siege we have seen a massive abuse of taming in pvp, 99% of the shard agrees that taming has no place in pvp. With greater dragons nearly two shotting most people, tamers stealthing to keep them selfs out of the fight, bolas requiring no skill, teammates running with nerve strikers, and a host of other things for the simple point of getting those mean pets a chance to sick their teeth, claws, fangs (and what have you) into your juicy hide.

    The majority of pvpers are in factions and run faction gear, even more upsetting is with the best items in the game, a greater dragon can still easier kill you in a few hits, allowing their master to loot all your hard earned gear.

    Now before you start the "die to a tamer lately" speech, All guilds on siege have ran tamers, including mine. So it is with no shame that I tell you, they are overpowering from any stand point. If you take a look on our shard, most tamers can stand alone vs 3+ opponents, especially while swining a bola.

    Now of course, the answer to this problem is not simple, because those non factioneers that run spawns need a way to defend themselfs. I understand that. So how to take out the abuse of pvping without taking away the defence of the pvmers?

    My idea would be that instead of a faction tamer not being able to attack their own faction, instead they could not attack ANY faction with their pet.

    They could still pvm, and relie on their faction mates for protection, since factions is pretty much a way of waying you pvp and you are apart of a pvp group. So if you join factions, you could wear the armor, gain the benefits but not abuse pets. Now if you want to run a tamer and pvm or still pvp, you would have to be blue or red and not have access to faction gear, which would be a disadvantage. tamers would still run hit point regen armor and stealth but their pets would not be an issue for us factioneers and would allow us to pvp as in player VS player, not player vs monster with a player stealthed nearby ready to loot you.

    What do you think? Feel free to flame is you do desire.
     
  2. Beefcake101

    Beefcake101 Guest

    another pvp not happy
     
  3. We used to have that. It was called Monster Ignore. Mr. Tact screwed that up too.
     
  4. Divie

    Divie Guest

    I agree fully with the op, would make no difference to pvm and within factions this would create a much better balance imho.
     
  5. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    With a response like yours, you have to exclusively play a tamer or you just don't PvP.

    There is no way that you would agree if you truly knew what you were talking about.

    The OP hit it right on the nose. Except I dont think Pets should be in PvP at all. At least not until they fix some major issues with taming.
     
  6. Kula

    Kula Guest

    Un-nerf evasion, dragon killed.
     
  7. So your plan would be to basically bar tamers from PvP, or at least factions.

    Here is a better idea...learn how to fight tamers.

    I will agree that pet damage in PvP needs to be looked at, but it should be kept in line with the damage that other templates can do.

    The answer is definitely not to just 'shut it off'.
     
  8. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Allow us to Provoke Pets onto owners.. We get some cheap laughs.. and you have to run Music/Provo to counter Tame/Lore

    And unless a provoer is on the field.. tamers can still be as gimp as they Dont claim to be.
     
  9. Who's the "gimp" the one living, or the one going OooOoOooOo looking for a healer?

    Get some skills.
     
  10. slavoie

    slavoie Guest

    If you really want to be sick with a pvp tamer, dont use the high end stuff, like a greater or a cu.

    Get 5 Frenzied that are 4x gm, and say all kill. If they all hit it's about 150-200 damage to a player. Good luck surviving that. I would duel my guild mate on atl against their greater, and ususally they didn't get off the all kill and target before they were dead. They were wearing a all 70's suit with the 0 mage swords.

    Obviously the frenzied are easy to pick off, but if they are under good control, there is no matching them, in pvp combat.
     
  11. The frenzieds can be rather nasty, but I have found that a combo of 3 of them and Bake is even more so. (you need at least one casting creature in there)
     
  12. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Please come to siege and *Actually Pvp.* Before you go making your self look like a Moron to thoes of us that play there.

    Yesterday my guild fought JSV.. They fielded 6 People

    2 Faction Dragons
    1 Non Faction Dragon
    1 Mare
    1 Beetle
    2 Bakes
    And a Bola Stealther..

    Basically.. We could not fight them..

    When played right.. the only thing that can 1 v 1 a tamer.. is another tamer
    this is not the the case with *ANY* other template on this game.


    As it stands.. a Stealth Tamer can easily do 150+ Damage very quickly.. with almost 0 Risk of being killed Due to the Dragon in combination with stealth..

    And before you say something like.. Oh well... Stealth / Ninja are the problem!?

    I play a Detect/Tracking fencer.. I cannot kill a tamer.. with a dragon next to him.. End of story.


    When you have a field fight on Siege.. usually the deciding factor in the fight is the Dragon.. and weather or not It fireballs.

    Make Music/Provo work on Pets to attack players.. tamers can still pvp.. pvm and what not.. and You have to run actual Skills to counter it. Make it so that If you bring a dragon on to the field.. You risk it tearing your own group appart.

    I would gladly put Music/Provo on my PVP Mage *Just* To counter the mass ammount of tamers that run through siege daily.. Usually We fight more Tamer Templates than any other on a day to day basis..

    Its pretty sad when you attack more Pets than players each day.
     
  13. I wouldn't have any problem with this. Bards need to be more useful in PvP.
     
  14. slavoie

    slavoie Guest

    So like in real life what could you do to overcome these odds.

    1. Get more people

    2. Imitate

    3. Deal, people with control, rule.

    It's life. Mabye we could ask congress to pass legislation for special rights to deal with the clear abuse that your guild suffers at the hands of stronger... nay, smarter players.
     
  15. Besides other "balance" issues, what defense would a tamer have then in Felucca? Anyone in factions in Felucca could attack a tamer, and the tamer would not be able to use the pet for defense. That creates even more of an imbalance in the other direction. So no, that would not work and is not a good idea.
     
  16. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    The funny bit about that is.. Get JSV on non tamer templates and they get completely run through due to being terrible pvpers.. Even aginst the Odds, A friend of mine and myself can 2x Mage drop 4-7 of them easy.. *IF* they have no tamers.
     
  17. slavoie

    slavoie Guest

    So basically you want taming pvp nerfed so "you" can stand on top of the hill.....
     
  18. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Well.. when taming is the sole factor in all fights on siege..

    All Fights come down to this..

    Who has Smarter or More Tamers..

    No other temps make as big of a difference than a tamer with a GDragon.

    Wait wait wait.. You're a player that Claims to be a 'Pvper' while playing a tamer arnt you? Go figure
     
  19. That's brilliant.

    Why don't you roll on to Siege and give that a try?

    *laughs*
     
  20. I think what you mean to say is : No other temps that you currently run and know how to play well enough make as big of a difference than a tamer with a GDragon.

    I have killed several tamers using my Archer. And I have killed several Archers using my tamer. I have also been killed several times by archers when on my tamer. But I rarely die to tamers on my archer because I have enough sense not to just stand in one place and let them kill me.

    Straight warrior templates are not as effective against tamers...that's for certain. But I have been killed by mages...especially Necro-mages.

    You just have to alter your tactics (real skills...not just button mashing).

    But this issue has been debated and debated. :sleep2:

    I have put my 2 cents in...so I will bow out of the rest of this debate.
     
  21. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    It's not just Siege, it's a problem on every shard.
     
  22. I don't have a tamer on Siege...I don't have a year to build one up...since I don't cheat (script)...and I don't feel like deleting the 1 character I have on Siege.

    Buy you are more than welcome to come over to Atlantic and introduce yourself. I will stone spirit speak over to my tamer so I can understand you when you get the word 'hello' typed. And BTW...plan on seeing a lot of black and white.
     
  23. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Does it work to use a bit of teamwork to have your tracker/detector warn everyone that he's about to detect the stealthed tamer and then everyone goes after the tamer? You haven't had much success with isolating the tamers from each other and picking them off one by one?
     
  24. slavoie

    slavoie Guest

    Not sure where I said I was a pvper, or a tamer pvper, just that I have sparred with guild mates with tames.

    Frankly, I am not a pvper, I do pvp from time to time, I would love to pvp, but alas, I am a shadow of my former pvp self. Either I am to old, or just not able to keep up with the templates needed to pvp these days. If a Classic shard ever makes it to produciton, I will pvp with avengence.
     
  25. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    You sir need to totally reread my entire post, slowly. As you did not get the idea.

    This would only happen if your IN factions, as in the tamer is in factions.
    My idea allows pets to get out of the pvp scene while allowing blue tamers to totally defend themselves.
     
  26. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    How are you going to kill me when I am hidden, your dismounted, bleeding, have taken 35 damage, a 60 point fireball is coming at you and the dragon is chasing you?

    Debated over and over? How about you read the debates, WE DO NOT HAVE PASSIVE DETECT ON SIEGE, so if your not using area spells or detect, the tamer will always be hidden.

    Come to siege and just check it out, just see what were all talking about.

    You come up to me on your archer, start attacking, my bola hits you, all kill, smoke bomb. Enjoy.
     
  27. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    No, listen i'll explain.

    Tamer is hidden... I reveal, he rehides instantly. I have to wait 5 seconds to redetect, I redetect, he rehides as his skill timer has reset as well.

    The problem is detect does not keep them revealed.
     
  28. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Timer for hiding is closer to 8 seconds, when training it, I would normally have to set a delay of 11 seconds in UOA, based on lag...la
     
  29. Run, invis to break agro, heal, invis, circle back on you. If your dragon is still there, it will not be agro'ed on me. Pop you for 60 damage, invis.

    We can keep that up all day.

    And if the archer in question is a speed hacker, you will never see him to all kill him anyway.
     
  30. Just chill a bit. It's Friday... take a deep breath and calm yourself.

    I did get the idea... it would leave a tamer defenseless. Just because they are in Factions as a tamer, it would leave a person without defenses. There are better ways, just NOT this way. This doesn't balance PvP in any way, just completely removes a single skill.

    OR, are you saying that you just can't use this skill in factions? OH well then... it's a stupid idea. No wonder you don't post your ideas more often! HEH
     
  31. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    fixed...la
     
  32. So, let me get this straight...you are an expert qualified to state that tamers are not overpowered in PvP because you have managed to kill them on your archer?

    Who were you fighting? A complete noob?

    Here is how this works on a real shard with real PvPers. You bring out your archer to fight the tamer and his dragon. Bang, you are dismounted. The dragon is on you and you are dead.
     
  33. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    What does the typical stealth tamer template look like on Siege? They have to have some weakness you can exploit, don't they?
     
  34. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Not if you are a ninja and have some smoke bombs in your pack and are good with macros...la
     
  35. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    I asked for it to be shut off on siege, and its not even shut off, just out of factions, you could pvp but you would be a red.

    Learn how to fight tamers? How much pvp knowledge do you have? really?
    I mean I don't want to get into a pissing contest but my guild KOC and skwiz's guild LOW are the top 2 pvp guilds are Siege hands down, we know what were talking about. In my guild currently we have some of the best pvpers from around, many from prodo.

    Listen the reason why taming is not looked at as a viable pvp tactic is because your letting something automonous do the fighting for you, just as in my example: Bola, All kill, smoke bomb, collect loot.

    I hit 3 buttons. That is not pvp, pvp relies on player skill, template build, a bit of gear, and a bit of luck. Dismounted against a greater dragon none of that matters. I role a full faction suit, were talking the BEST mods you can have for a mage, I won't go into detail unless asked, but there is no way combat a stealth, bolaing dragons. The only thing that can do it, is a tamer with disco.

    As skwiz has said, adapting is adding a few skills to change your chances against a template, like his example of music and provo, totally possible.
    But to have to change characters completely, and thats just to kill the dragons, you still have 0 chance to even kill the tamer.

    Steath= Best defence there is
    greater dragon= best offence there is

    Stealth tamer= most overpowered template to over come to siege.
     
  36. See alot of ninja archers these days Rico?
     
  37. So basically, you are saying "My template should be the most powerful template, and I should not have to change a thing. In fact, everyone that uses a template that my template does not work well against should be barred from participating", right?

    The game changes. Right now, if you are not willing to change your template to fight tamers, you are going to be doing a lot of dying. There is a reason tamer templates have become popular.

    And when those templates are nerfed, something else will replace them...and everyone not running that template will whine and cry about that.

    It just gets old over time hearing everyone whine instead of adapting their templates.

    I don't care if today was your first day PvPing, or if you won the Michigan State Live-in-Your-Mom's-Basement-PvP-Grandchampionship of 2005...and 2006...

    ...if you are not willing to adapt and learn new tactics, even if that includes revamping your character, then you will not remain the "l337" "UBER" "DEWD" champion for very long.
     
  38. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Maybe they aren't all archers, but you will note 8 of the top 10 faction players on Siege have ninja powers...link...la
     
  39. Oh, well thanks for clearing that up.

    I guess Atlantic is now an imaginary shard, and the PvP'ers there are imaginary PvP'ers.

    Got it.
     
  40. Half the people on Siege have stealth.

    Literally.

    You are right though, none of them are archers. That template went out the window when deathstrike damage was halved from archery weps.

    You would know that if you PvPed. Since you don't, you might want to leave PvP discussions to people who actually PvP.

    ...and before you say it, no, stealing is not PvP.
     
  41. No, Atlantic is real and I'm sure there are real PvPers there. You just aren't one of them.

    IF YOU ARE "PVPING" WITH A PET, THAT ISN'T PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER.
     
  42. [​IMG]
     
  43. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    The problem here Cash.. is that on prodo the dragons (While being very strong) Dont even compare to the Dragons we fight on Siege.. Maybe its cause we cannot *Bless* Max HCI/DCI / HP Regen / 200+ Hp Suits.. To battle dragons..

    But honestly.. I have..

    Dexxer

    Archery / Chiv / Parry / Stealth / Ninja / Fencing / Bushy / Stealth / Tracking / Detect / Poisoning / Tact.

    Mage

    Magery / Eval / Resist / Stealth / Hide / Archery / Poisoning / Spirit Speak / Necromancy / Wrestle / Inscribe / Ninja / Fencing / Music / Provo.

    And *NO* varriation of any of thoes templates stands a chance of killing a *Smart* Tamer.

    All of you saying you have no problem killing dragons and tamers and what not.. Siege is not like prodo, its an amazing concept to grasp i understand..

    But things that are "Very Strong" on prodo... are "Completely Domintate" on siege. We Do not have Passive Detect, 200+ HP, Max HP Regen on every suit.

    A dragon fight usually looks like this on siege.. And this is Low End.. Ive seen crazy **** from dragons..

    Bite 40 (Bleed 22)
    Lightning 16
    Fireball 60

    That is 116 Damage.. *(More HP than my Dexxer has on this current suit)*

    And thats low end.. Ive seen dragons do intelligent combos before..

    Bite, Para, Mana Vamp, Flamestrike, Fireball, Lightning.. dead.

    Now heres the real problem, Combine this obviously (Siege) overpowered pet.. With Any Group (Any Group templates) And it becommes a whos dragon does a fireball fight.

    Honestly I would just love to go out to pvp.. and *Not* see a dragon.. for once.

    The last 4 Fights ive had in the past 2 days on siege have involved tamers..

    something like..

    (Total)
    5 Faction Dragons
    2 Non Faction Dragons
    2 Bakes
    1 Mare
    1 R. Beetle

    (Players)
    1 Bola swordsman
    1 Nervestrike / Death Striker.

    Pets are outnumbering players when it comes to siege pvp..
     
  44. Nonsense... you are trying to quibble words, but it is still nonsense.
     
  45. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Yeah because im Running a Tracking/Detecter for all the Non Stealther Tamers..

    The *ONLY* reason i have tracking/detect is for stealth tamers on siege.. What now?
     
  46. Do you have a tamer of your own?
     
  47. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Kinda tough to PvP with this template...link...la
     
  48. Obviously, you don't PvP either.

    You want to know what nonsense is? Nonsense is when you have no skill whatsoever in PvP but think you do because you can say "all kill".
     
  49. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    I have access to one.. Ive played it.. never Pvped on it.
     
  50. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    There's a lot of tamers not in factions who PvM/PvP.

    Even if they said tamers in factions couldn't attack factions, people will still complain about dying to blue tamers.