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I thought the spawn cams had been dealt with...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Jun 17, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Twice in a row now I've been raided just as the champ was about to die. And I saw no one else at the spawn that wasn't friendly until that point. Twice in a row. Seems like a rather large coincidence to me... :)
     
  2. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I know a few guilds that run stealth archers through looking for active spawns, and once found they snoop around and coordinate the attack. It's happened to myself as well, but it was obvious what was going on since they wound up getting revealed (yay for being an elf).

    One thing I've seen some folks start doing is popping multiple spawns, working them up to {X} level with small groups then they come together at one spawn and run it to completion, it takes more time for the stealthers to verify there is actually No one at the spawn.
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, I've got an elf, and as far as I could tell, no one else was at the spawn until the last few seconds, literally. And none of those that raided us were stealth archers, or even stealthers as far as I could tell. It looks suspiciously like the way things would happen back a few years ago when I know for certain there were spawn cams.
     
  4. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Could just be some darn good stealthers.

    What are the rules about ghost cams now btw? Any ghost gets deported after a little bit right?
     
  5. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I scout spawns on a stealther just like many many many many guilds have done in the past. To scout you do not need to get anywhere near the people working the spawn (won't be revealed by your elf (LOL)) and they don't need tor aid on their scout. Spawn cams were used by very few actually. Next you will be pointing to the government for your corn flakes going stale.

    The riddle that was llewen is really starting to unfold as to what kind of player you are.
     
  6. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    LOL... because a stealther always joins in the raid rolleyes:

    As an old school stealth scout(many DOZENS of scouts), I'll let you in on a few secrets:
    1. If I'm not moving, your elfness does nothing. I can't count the number of times I've been walked by at a spawn while I was hidden and not moving. Never revealed. The only time I got revealed was when I had to move when someone was next to me.
    2. I run two computers and two accounts. If I find a spawn, I log my scout off my good computer. Log him onto my slow computer and watch. When the raid comes, I log onto my raider.
    3. I've played a stealth mage in the past. You'd never know I was a stealther during the raid. This was YEARS before the latest ninja/mage/stealth template.
    4. I've played a necro ninja stealther. In wraith form, you can walk all over me and not find me.
    5. I've scouted for other raiding guilds in the past. I got paid for each champ I found for them. I wasn't involved in the raid nor killing the champ. VERY lucrative:thumbup1:

    In animal form, I can check all the t2a spawns in ~10 minutes. Run between spawns and stealth from the edges.
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well that's totally cool if that's the way they did it. I just found their timing rather remarkable. However, I do know they have a lot of stealthers in that particular guild, so it could easily have been one of them. Anyway, it was fun even if I did die, and every time I learn something new, so that keeps me happy.

    But for the person that said spawn cams were rare, I'm afraid I don't believe that. I'm guessing that almost every shard had at least one guild that ran spawn cams. I ran with a guild for a short time, until I figured out what they were all about, a few years ago, and they used cams to control spawning on my shard, and the cams were quite sophisticated. When ghosts no longer worked, they switched to living characters.

    One of my favourite UO people of all time, a grandmother, used to go from spawn to spawn, revealing and killing their cams. She was/is the best. :)
     
  8. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    You didnt need to be alive for the cams to work. but you had to kill them to exercise them. Which I do believe was the reason the spell was introduced. I never saw a problem with cams, but I like the fights.
     
  9. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    Getting rid of ghost cams is/was one of the more thoughtful things EA has done in awhile. With 2 ghost cams you can easily scout every span in fel in under 3 minutes. That is with 3 accounts, but still, it's insanity.

    My guess is that you got scouted legitimatly, and that is respectable.
     
  10. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    Getting rid of ghost cams is/was one of the more thoughtful things EA has done in awhile. With 2 ghost cams you can easily scout every spawn in fel in under 2 minutes. That is with 3 accounts, but still, it's insanity.

    My guess is that you got scouted legitimatly, and that is respectable.
     
  11. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Stealthers can pretty much do the same thing as ghosts and, therefore, void the fix to ghost cams.

    Perhaps something needs be done also for stealthers but I am not sure what this something could be.....

    An ideas ?
     
  12. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest

    yah I got an idea!

    quit bitchin' about it and get a crew together!

    stealthing out a champ spawn is as legit as it gets!
    sorry bud, there's not a *fix* for it. get some revealers/trackers....

    omfg....
     
  13. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    Stealthers use skills to hide, not exploiting a game exploit. I thought this was something that was to be encouraged?
     
  14. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    I do this daily on Europa lost lands with my stealther, He scouts around on one account, if i find an active spawn i just hang around some where and wait for it to go boss level.

    If its being soloed i wait for the person to red line the champ then i come in with a second stealth archer and fight for the champ. Once the champ is dead i pull the scrolls off the dead body

    No ghost cam needed, its now done with a stealth cam :gee:

    I some times just sit in despise with my stealth cam and move him every few mins to keep him from being logged out, and keep a close eye on despise so i know when it kicks off.

    Stealth cam FTW
     
  15. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    By stealth cam, or ghost cam, we're talking about an automated system that can broadcast changes to spawn regions depending on activity, correct?

    I think people are going to get the wrong idea of what a true "cam" is, or was, hehe. A guy who runs two accounts, looks at the other screen, then tells him or herself and his or her buddies whats up isn't running a cam, :p lol.

    Also, at OP Llewen, really depends on what spawn region you were at. Like I mean, if you were doing Destard or Fire that would be sort of more strange to get raided than obviously Despise or Marble. And I'm not sure what you mean by "twice in a row" either ... if you mean you tried to do another spawn after you lost the first one, and you got raided again, why is that a mystery?
     
  16. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    The OP does raise a valid point. I would definitely agree to limit ghosts in some way. I guess I'm calling for a ghost nerf! Jokes aside here's what I think:

    - AllNames should not work, similarly living players should not be able to see which ghost is who. MouseOvers for items and between the living and the ghosts should be disabled too.

    - All "living" players should show as souls for ghosts, using the graphics of wisps. These wisps would be the only coloured things a ghost would be able to see in their B/W vision so that player characters, blue and red healers could be easily distinguished. I would also suggest that NPCs with the exception of healers should not show at all or perhaps also show as wisps(souls).

    - Ghosts shouldn't be able to open paper-dolls, living players shouldn't be able to open ghosts' paper-dolls.

    - Ghosts shouldn't be able to run.

    - Ghosts shouldn't be able to actually hear sounds the living make nor understand what the living say unless the latter(or the ghosts themselves perhaps) have Spirit Speak.

    - The more time a player spends as a ghost just standing still, the blurrier their screen should become, every 10' or so. When the ghosted players' screens become a complete blur(which should happen after 30+ minutes for sure) the ghost should be automatically teleported to Chaos Shrine, Felucca.

    Just saying..
     
  17. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, get detect and tracking or a bigger group? Stealthers spying on spawns is legal. It's use of skill and if you have someone who can track them that's your offense.

    Ghost cams on the other hand...well...that's another topic. They put something in that essentially boots dead players out of the area based on certain criteria, don't remember but it showed good results. Listed in one of the publishes but I don't care to look it up at the moment.
     
  18. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    If I learned anything from ***** ****, it's we are given names when we die. Seriously though, it would be crazy not to know who a ghost was. Crazy. Also, I like the fact that I can get the bar of the player(s) who killed me by opening their paperdoll (or to see how much life 'Coon has).

    If "cams" are such a problem, it's pretty simple, bring back the old rule. If you die in T2A, you are immediately telestormed. Simple. Worked great, in my opinion, and should never have been changed. But if any cams still exist they're probably stealther cams.

    The last two ideas, no run and can't understand the living, would be fine for vets of the game, but would hurt noobs in PvM situations too much. I can just imagine trying to tell a noob, "Move, that wisp/earth ele/ev/etc is blocking your rez location!" and ghost is just like oOO Oo oOo (rez me plz) lol.

    Speaking of which, Focus skill should operate like Spirit Speak and allow players to understand the dead.
     
  19. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I may have been to strict, true. But on the other hand a couple of my suggestions could help with the spawn cams.

    It's rather simple really, have each of those rules apply only after a certain time(and in a certain order) of staying in the same area(I'd say "Tile" but then ghost cams can also run scripts to move around).
     
  20. With the Enhanced Client, I zoom out and can see areas you could never see with the Classic Client. I don't need to stealth to check out a spawn and you will never see me.
     
  21. I like the cut of your jib! :thumbup1:
     
  22. Get a necro, then you can see dead people :eyes:
     
  23. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Oh and I forgot the addendum to that "simple" throwback, lol.

    Die and get telestormed, plus ghosts can't enter T2A ;P.

    Now it is more simple (or more complex, ugh, haha).
     
  24. Gal

    Gal Guest

    Just do what I do when I solo champ, from time to time randomly close the exits from the area with energy fields and cast EQ if you hear a pa-pow and white smoke thingy like the teleport grafics then you got a stealther on your hands. this method dose require you using a red to work the spawn tho.
    Or you can just start soloing Imp spawns, the fire gargoyles and the succibus auto reveal for you with the area damage.
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    No, stealthers are a perfectly legit part of the game, and belong there. There's no better use for them than scouting out spawns to raid. I'd be upset if they were removed from the game for that purpose.

    No, someone running two accounts that he payed for and is actively playing isn't running a cam. I was talking about the old days where people used free trial accounts primarily to put a character they spent a couple of hours script training stealth and hiding on, into a spawn with a script running on them that sent information on the spawn to a map server or a web site.
     
  26. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Not quite.. The "loading" limitations for objects and people doesn't increase as you zoom out. You just get more scenery and under certain conditions, houses. I'm pretty sure of that.
     
  27. Nope, not quite right. You can't see everything if you zoom all the way out, but you can get about twice the range with EC. I use it every day to look around corners and through the walls to find stealables without having to actually go all the way in. The Yamotsu caves is a perfect example, where I can go in less than 1/4 of the way to see if the lvl 9 statue has spawned.
     
  28. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    My little group runs spawns when we can and are fairly knowing in how long it takes specific groups to down a champ and shall raid with that factored in. We have often send one player in to annoy a group whilst we are raiding another group just to tie the spawn up so as to finish both ourselves. Often in our vent servers we will make notes of spawns that team members spotted if they have to go AFK.

    This all said I have not seen a proper AFK ghost cam in a very long time.
     
  29. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    The "cam" part of it is fixed.

    You cannot enter a spawn area as a ghost, technically you could suicide yourself and scout it...but after about 5mins your corpse disappears and you disappear to a shrine.

    You cannot log out at a spawn, if you do when you time out upon re-entry you are teleported to a shrine (after dropping all cursed items not equiped to the floor. Recent addition is this now happens with help stuck)

    So, now they arent cammed, they are scouted. Scouting is fine and a part of the game. I do it enough on a revealed char but have no problems with someone doing it on a hidden one.
     
  30. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ghost cams don't work anymore, that was why the cheaters switched to live cams. That happened a few years ago.

    But I had heard that the spawn cams were completely gone, which was why I was a little surprised to be raided just as the champ was about to die, two days in a row (and actually now that I think of it, it happened to me three days in a row, although the first time the champ hadn't popped yet, it was just close), especially when the pvp scene on my shard has been pretty dead for the past few months, and one of those times was in off hours. And this shard has a history of running spawn cams, and several in this guild were part of the guild that I know (as in I saw them at work) used to run spawn cams a few years ago.

    That was why I became suspicious. However, it could just be that they were watching the spawns legitimately.
     
  31. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Oh yes, if they are doing it legitimately, kudos to them. It's annoying, but you get bonus points for annoying your enemies in this game. :)
     
  32. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    In my experience, only a lazy raid guild doesn't check Destard or Fire. I can think of maybe two locations that I wouldn't check EVERY cycle of a spawn check. And that was mainly due to the fact they weren't done.

    You'd never have found me by checking exits. I normally roam while the spawn is going on. Getting people counts and template types. And if I was spawning on my dismounter, grabbing bars.

    Imp spawn normally didn't bother me too much either. Again, I'd move around and avoid the spawn. The only time I'd have an issue is when I swap computers and leave the guy not moving.
     
  33. Gal

    Gal Guest

     
  34. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I assumed you know what a cam is, but I was wondering where Winker was going with his/her specific post.

    Everyone checks with a different route. Some of my friends always run through Fire/Despise/Destard first, others take a more scenic route. Generally, most of the action is in Despise and T2A, guilds don't regularly do Keep (unless they want to **** everyone off and just start it, lol), or Fire proper, or dungeons in general. But as you said in previous post, doesn't really take too long to check any spawn in the game, which is why, if the OP's "back to back" occurred on the same day, I find it strange he/she would find it odd to be raided the same way each time.
     
  35. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Llewen when are you gonna learn raiders are sneaky types!! Haha
    I've got one guy in my guild who never fails to find someone spawning somewhere. I scout on my stealther same as Gellor does, but this guy tops that and he doesn't stealth. I have no idea how he does it.

    You need to just join the dark side and hang out with us ;) You can even bring that annoying beetle.
    [​IMG]
     
  36. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    I mean some raid guilds don't physically check some spots.

    And you are right that a raid guild that hits a raid will be VERY watchful afterwords... so there is no surprise in getting raided quickly and often on the same day:lol:

    I can't count the number of times when I was a freelance scout where the guild I JUST got raided tries to do another spawn within 10 minutes.
     
  37. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Peanut butter chocolate chip! I think the beetle likes them too! :D

    For the record, it wasn't you guys, but that's as much as I'll say on that...

    Unfortunately, I think some of my friends would have a heart attack if I joined you guys, and I'd have their deaths on my conscience for the rest of my life...
     
  38. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Nah most of my guild is enjoying the summer, and among other reasons, not pvping as much.

    AFAIK no one on the shard is running any kind of cams though. There was someone running "cams" outside the spawn areas just tracking who went by (entered the area), but I think those people quit. Mostly it's just by chance though that people find you.
    I did have some random person (I still dont know who it was) ICQ me and leave me a message that said "XXX is doing destard" recently which was strange.
     
  39. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    Also, another thing to keep in mind with "omg somehow we got found out" is some guildmates do report their own spawning activities to get in good with the raiding guild.

    I can't count the number of times members of another guild pulled that move.:lol:
     
  40. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    *Nod*
    I think that's what happened in my case.
    Someone upset someone in their guild so they told on them LOL
    I wasn't home to actually see the message in time so it was no harm no foul... but still.
     
  41. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    needless to say though that it is awefully annoying that a single guy could have been working a spawn for over an hour to loose everything (including a chance at a replica for killing all the spawn) because some guys scout around to take your spawn away at the last moment. Legit, but highly annoying.

    One thing I have always had some issues with in that respect is that there should be some kind of reward for working the spawn that doesn't go POOF when the local bored raid guild decide to take it away. (Guild? Guild? the tag "guild" is really only synonemous for 2 1/2 guys having nothing better to do with their lives than play UO and gank others cheapily)

    Perhaps the replica chance based on spawn kill should remain, and could still drop into your bank box if you are dead? Problem is that by killing the spawn cams (because of even lazier guild-types) one can nolonger stay in the area to be eligible for a replica. Alternatively, make it such that if you take over the spawn and kill the champ at the last moment, you only roll for 1 scroll. If you kill the guy doing 99.9% of the work, the chance of getting scrolls is much less as well. That still leaves the opportunity of catching the one guy soloing the spawn before he can get away with all 6 / 12 scrolls, if you leave him alive. you could still stealth in and kill him right away I guess... However, it is much more fair in my humble opinion, because the timing then is more critical and you need enough people to pull off killing someone who is on the run. It may actually encourage people doing spawns again, and discourage just lamely f-ing someone's efforts up at the last second and send him home with nothing.

    I understand that there are risks / benefits in fel. I play and live there. Doing a spawn with a guild and having to defend it against a raiding guild is very different from the scenario i am describing above, which happens regularly at like 9 AM when NOBODY else is even around to play. I dunno, just ranting I guess... It really ultimately does not affect me one iota, I will just find something else to do.
     
  42. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    i understand your frustration from a pvm aspect, but honestly, how many things are left in this game that takes guilds, teamwork, and the like, to work. Sure you can solo a spawn, but you may need to fight for it. This goes back to the reason the devs set this up like this, risk vs. reward.
     
  43. Gal

    Gal Guest

    I can't agree with Cetric more, there are so many reward giving pvm areas that have a good reward for your effort that are based in trammel with trammel rule set, Doom, Slasher, SA Dragon, Melisande, Dread Horn, Travesty and the list gose on and on. you can't expect to solo a spawn (which wasn't intended when those spawns were introduced) and reap all the benifits without any risks when you play fel.
    As a person that raids and gets raided I can honestly say I wouldn't want it any other way. It would kill the last bit of good pvp thats left in this game, in my shard any ways. If you want a reward for your effort do any of the other trammel based rare dropers, sell what you get and buy the scrolls and replicas you need. If you want to pvm with the chance of pvp and with the risk of losing do a champ spawn, easy as that.
    If I'm not wrong I think you can still get replicas from just killing the spawn without actually hiting the champ, so if you lose your spawn just run out rez up and come back to the spawn and hide, and hope for your 1% chance for a replica.
     
  44. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    if you solo a champ and die during a raid, stick around as a ghost till they kill the champ, then leave.
     
  45. Gal

    Gal Guest

    Why do that? if you stick around until the champ dies and you are dead as well all scrolls he might get or replicas just drop to his corpse... whats the point in staying as a ghost?
     
  46. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    a couple of times I thought I got replica/s upon rezzing, I must be mistaken then.
     
  47. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    I don't disagree with either of those sentiments either. Afterall, it is pvp. The only problem is that the raiders have nothing to offer but the quick kill of a lame duck. The obvious conclusion is to not solo a champ spawn and go do something different with a small chance of an Artie. Now, that is a loss for both the solo guy and the raiders. Nobody wins. My suggestion leaves the fun at the champ spawn. I am not adversed to pvp. I enjoy it. I am adversed to game mechanics that are unbalanced from the get go and favor opportunism like that.

    The ultimate example recently was a raid by three guys right before the champ was redlined. They couldn't finish the champ and just Rez killed me a few times and then left the spawn after I warped to a shrine. I offered to finish it for them. Lol

    it is not a game mechanic in that situation, it is pure griefing. I am not suggesting to change anything into a pure Pvm thing (although technically it of course is). I am suggesting to balance the risk reward on the pvp side of things.
     
  48. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Pvp at champ spawns is currently the only "real" pvp in UO. It's the only context where something valuable is at stake, and there are no stupid "rules", and no guard zones. If you are getting stomped at champ spawns, change your tactics, improve your character and your skills, recruit more friends to help defend the spawn, etc. etc.

    The basic premise and mechanics of the spawn are one of the best things UO has to offer in terms of pvp, and unless someone has some clear way to make it even better, it is one of the systems in UO that probably doesn't need to be changed.
     
  49. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    if they spot you in the morning doing a spawn, the next morning they'll be back. the same if they saw you every evening, or afternoon- its not a mystery. they're using their head. they know to look for you. they know you're alone.

    get to know THEIR schedules. there are guys who always are on in mornings, but vanish in the evenings- and vice versa.

    they have the thrill of the hunt, the fun of the fight, and the savor of victory as you lay dead and they deal the death blow to the champ.

    they'll come in with a stealther and let you do all the work and jump you when its almost over.

    SOME will even pop a barracoon spawn and work it up THEMSELVES to level 2-3 and then have an alternate character announce it in chat. they sit and wait like a spider, picking off people who come in hoping to get scrolls.

    elf doesn't do anything except reveal if they get too close. i run a human so i can JOAT track.

    be smart, lay down poison fields earthquakes, etc. even so there's no guarantee.

    use HONOR on caster levels and run into the spawn to protect yourself.

    setup choke points and gather spawn there. lay fields

    best bet to doing spawns is to bring friends. yeah they can be solo'd, in an hour or two, but you risk losing it. bring some friends and do it and you'll get the same amount of scrolls plus the protection of others...

    more more more, but it all goes back to using your head
     
  50. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    This is almost a possibility. But some "raid" guilds have numbers on at almost all times. During the long run the guild I was in, I think the only time spawns really ever got done was 3-6 in the morning:lol: