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I'd like to hear more about the Artwork Changes

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Eric Ravenwind, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. Eric Ravenwind

    Stratics Veteran Gilfane

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    As titled.

    I'm hoping though, that they make some stuff look like 2d if not better.

    Example: Sandels. Sandels look noticable and have character in 2d, but they look like cheesy string in the EC. Would also like monsters to be more vicious looking; gaping maws, drool, rotted skin, etc.
     
  2. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The upcoming artwork revamp is going to be terrain and building walls, nothing yet on how they are going to look though... at least nothing concrete.
     
  3. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    Wanting to see some screenshots as well.

    With the next pub being the terrain/buildings, I wonder how long it will take for the mobiles to be finished. Will be happy to see anything though.
     
  4. canary

    canary Guest

    You'd think they'd be releasing things here and there to get people excited. You know, like most games do.

    Typical UO silence. Figures.
     
  5. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    As Dermott mentioned, the art changes will be just environment artwork. We're not updating animations anytime soon.

    We've actually made some terrific inroads, there are still some technical hurdles, but that's to be expected when you're converting assets designed as 2D into 3D objects so that we can then turn around and render them in such a way to pull out the 3D-ness. Fun, fun!

    - Grimm
     
  6. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The only thing that needs to be done to mobiles is a nice bump back up in resolution to KR levels if possible.
     
  7. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - nom. nom. :popcorn:

    - Aye, what Dermott just said. KR-ish resolution toggle switch, por favor (please).

    (Lookin' forward to this, aye)
     
  8. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    It's the avatars that are the biggest issue, by far, for me.
     
  9. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Grimm, does this conversion work that ultimately lets you render these assets "in such a way to pull out the 3D-ness" have anything to do with NetDragon Websoft's new 3D version of UO? Are you and others actually working on the environment work for them while they concentrate on rendering mobiles?
     
  10. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    THIS.

    Rerender mobiles in the resolution they had in KR. Put them in the EC.

    Or simply take them out of a KR backup and stuff them into the EC mobiles file(s). Instant happy EC users.
     
  11. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    If I remember right, the KR characters were way too tall and looked like they had grasshopper legs, walking like smug dorks, and drank too much. Well that last part may be my imagination.
     
  12. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The EC models ARE the KR models, just downgraded in resolution and in some cases have had the hueing issues worked out. All that really needs to happen there (yeah, I know Grimm easier to say than to do) at least concept-wise is to be able to bump them back up to KR level of resolution (or better if possible).

    Scaling can be done as well (not quite as easily as it was in the 3d client (MAN I WISH I still had those pics from the days when CatHat told us where the 3d client stored the character model scales... I made my characters big enough that they could stand behind my house and overlook the second story patio) but doable).

    Of course there have been some animation tweaks since then as well to get everything working better as well.

    Again... up the Resolution :)
     
  13. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    The avatars WERE taller in KR, yes.

    Personally, I think they shrunk them way too much for the EC. Character's heads barely come above the handles on doors now and look like children next to tables or elven wash basins. Half-again as high would be nice.
     
  14. Eric Ravenwind

    Stratics Veteran Gilfane

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    No joke.. my garg is like 12 feet tall.
     
  15. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I just logged into the EC to check the height. My opinion is they are good, and I think you are getting the angle wrong. But the angles in UO are "broke", and it wouldn't be a drawback to do it your way, so I can go along with that.

    ------

    Another thing that bothers me about the EC is that, I wear a fancy shirt under my tunic, along with bone arms. I like the extra color and style I get from that. But the shirt doesn't show in the EC, instead I see bear arms.

    I don't like the cloth tunics. I like the "Templar" look of the plain white ones in the CC.

    The walking. Damn, why do we all have to sound like Ahab on the deck of the Pequod? And why, at this stage of the game, do we still have the same footsteps for dirt as wood floors and pavement?

    The male avatars have a nagging lack of athleticism and heroic cut.

    Animations need a lot of work. They are very poor.
     
  16. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    LMAO! Under the hood, I always think of that old Tom & Jerry cartoon when I'm walking around in the ec. Eventually I always catch myself muttering "Dickey Mo!"
     
  17. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    It's the same footstep sound that has been in every client from 2d through the EC... well two footsteps, one for on foot/walking when mounted and the other deeper one for galloping when mounted.

    Edit: But that does bring my mind back to one of the big things I would like to see done, but probably won't because overall it'll never get very high on the priority list... and that being more environmental effects overall, visual and audible, little things that make the world seem a bit more... alive.
     
  18. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    I do believe there are actually several diffent footstep effects based on the walking surface in the client (at least the CC), but they have never been implemented.

    I agree with Dermott that more incedental environment effects would be a welcome thing. UO is FAR to quiet, and to be quite frank...rather visually dull.

    I'd be in favor of someone going through the cities one by one and redecorating them with more items - definately more color - since no city has a lived-in look/feel. Barren NPC shops are hellishly dull. Either turn the EMs lose with the ability to deco (thus giving the shards more unique features), or a Dev would need to make map changes to be included with each publish.
     
  19. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    Nope. No, and no.

    This conversion to 3D models is just a way to bring these legacy assets into the 21st century. It's also a great way to preserve the classic UO look and feel. I really don't know what's going on with that Netdragon client, but I do know that we're not contributing art assets to it.

    -Grimm
     
  20. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    +1

    Oh there is so much I'd love to do, it's all about finding the bloody time.

    -Grimm
     
  21. Eric Ravenwind

    Stratics Veteran Gilfane

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    How about a sneek peek.. :banana:
     
  22. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    Well, there are still a lot of things that we need to fix, and other more immediate priorities at the moment. But we wouldn't want to put out screenshots of stuff that still looks broken- that just wouldn't get us off on the right foot, now would it?

    -Grimm
     
  23. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    mmm assets... :spider:
     
  24. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    as much as i would love to and cant wait to see the new art, I really dont think it would be a good idea at this point. not on these boards the comets flames remarks ahhh I hope the Grimm doesn't until its finished

    edit nvm good call Grimm
     
  25. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    We're talking about walls and stone pavers guys... yes ?

    Why does everyone need to pre-twist threads ?

    Grimm... you surely have SOMEthing, you been working on this for a while... if everything looks broken...

    ok forget I mentioned it :stretcher:
     
  26. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I hope the artworks improvement could involve also the robe weared by gargoyles (paperdoll image)... I'm really tired to looks like I'm dressing a garbage bag :(
    The funny thing is that the Gargish Fancy Robe is really nice to see, the plain robe seems like it's not even being drawn :D
     
  27. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    yes, and the color is off..
     
  28. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Grimm, since you can't post screenshots, I wonder if you could at least describe what's involved in this project to convert the legacy assets to 3D models. What would someone looking at "before" and "after" shots in the Enhanced Client really notice as differences? Differences in shadows, shading, perspective? Changes in color? More refined textures? Are the artists working on this tile-by-tile, or applying a stored process to wide swaths of particular types of tiles? I'm still a bit confused on exactly what is being done, how it compares to the assets originally used in the KR client, and perhaps who is working on this project besides you. Thanks.
     
  29. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Grimm your part of the team has no problem, your art on renders i have seen for SA or KR looking great and also the stuff implemented in the 2d client.

    The difference between 2d and 3d is not soo huge, a screen has only 2 dimesions. This so called 3d is a style of programming and art creating which should reduce work not create work. But also good painted comics are nice.

    The problem i see is the engine used with the Enhanced Client, you are using sprite shaders in a 3d engine to render 2d animation sprites and this costs much performance, also simply drawing titles and textures without any bones cost much memory.

    Then the problem with the server client communication, there is a simple answer why no other MMO like UO exist, the failure rate in communication is soo high, only one packet lost and no good exeception handler and the client crashes, and this for all items, houses, etc. But it is possible and Origin with Richard Garriott at this time created a legend, a dream, it is like Windows 95.

    What i cant understand is the slowness of the event arcs or content creation, creating a monster with other stats and color is as simple as it seems two or three clicks, a spawner, a test, ready! Or changing elements like hitpoints, loot, skills, the enviroment or creating new champion spawns is easy. But instead of doing this things, the team creates new items, new enviroments, new monsters, why? I would like to see more revamp instead of 1 or 2 implementations a year!

    The most important thing are not the model graphics, the effects are important they have to look cool individual, a splattering corpse, a cool lightning arrow cold shot or a nice fire nova shot, simple to create but a great game expierence.

    But for all of this points, you need a solid fundament, the client! Excuse me but UO has no client with that potential, if you want to live the next 10 years, then it is 1 minute before the game is over to create one!
     
  30. So about 6 months...
     
  31. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I have to agree that the client should be the focus going forward. That's what will keep people playing and bring in some new players (along with some advertising... and an economy fix... and, well, check my other posts).

    I'll be happy to see the new tiles and I'm sure they will look great. My real concern is how they look with the EC's current animations for characters and MOBs.

    I like the way my avatar looks in the EC (I won't discuss the horrible paperdoll), but the scaling is weird. For instance, I'm the same size as an Ettin and an Ogre is only slightly larger. Trolls are smaller than me, although I can sort of see that since the new model 'hunches'. The Headless are as big as the Ogres and the Lizardmen are too. Sheep seem to have the same mass as my character and several other things do too. Perhaps my perspective is off, but I hope this is being looked at.

    Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got in your bag of tricks. I just hope that the Bioware/Mythic/EA team can pull together and focus. Focus is the key, and if it's not there then.... Well, you know what will happen.:(
     
  32. KingHen

    KingHen Seasoned Veteran
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    Your efforts are appreciated.
    No really, they are.
     
  33. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I have to agree! Improvements are always appreciated.
     
  34. OH here it comes... I personally don't care about it - but word of warning to the Great Grimm - DON'T mess with the sheep!!

    Seems some dyed-in-the-wool UO players have deep-seated feelings about their sheep...
     
  35. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    Sure thing. So basically I'm approaching the high res artwork from the standpoint of this: Legacy artwork, just in 3D. This means that the "Look" of the high res tiles are going to be identical to Legacy client, even though the actual art might be slightly different. So playing the legacy client and the EC client is going to feel like the same game, only when you zoom in, things will not get as blurry.

    We're handling this update in pieces, housing tiles and a little terrain work were the first on the list, so you'll be seeing those first. As for how they compare to the UOKR stuff, well the housing stuff doesn't look like the KR stuff. I couldn't even use the UOKR stuff because, well honestly the guy who set those assets up was way better than I was about materials and lighting, and had a far more complicated setup. Since then I've rewritten the entire environment art pipeline so that getting these assets in the game is easier than it ever has been. And I've kept the setup for these assets as simple as possible. I mean, it's already pretty complicated without me adding complex lighting schemes and whatnot. So I'm just trying to keep things simple for future artists.

    Anything I miss?

    -Grimm
     
  36. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    ...

    LOL. Thanks for bringing THAT up again...


    -Grimm
     
  37. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I like the sheep now...

    They actually "look" sheared after shearing them...

    Maybe that's just me.

    I'll still hound you though for the fix to the gargoyle robes on paperdolls... disturbingly ugly they are.



    As for the rest... I'm attempting to wait patiently.
     
  38. Ashlynn_L

    Ashlynn_L Lore Master
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    Wait a moment, I don't want to jump to any conclusions here, and please correct me if I am wrong but the way this reads to me is that the EC "terrain art assets update" actually consists of taking the classic client terrain tiles but redrawing them at a higher resolution? But the problem is the classic client terrain looks terrible and outdated and rescaling it isn't going to make the grass look any less like broccoli. It's not going to make the see look less like a sheet of blue canvas.

    If this IS the case, then you're going to get a lot of unhappy EC users. The EC terrain is one of the things that actually does look better. It would be repeating the same thing that happened shortly before AoS with the Third Dawn client where all the nice 3d terrain tiles was just replaced with that from the classic client. And not a single 3d user appreciated it at the time then either.

    Now I am actually concerned this may be another step backwards.
     
  39. Larisa

    Larisa Reporting Manager
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    I like the sheep!!!! :cheerleader:

    Thanks for taking the time out to explain all this, though I don't understand a word of it I know that whatever work you do is ALWAYS amazing and even though I don't play the EC, most of it is very beautiful.
     
  40. AirmidCecht

    AirmidCecht twitch.tv/airmid
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    The problem for some (<---some) of us is while the KR and EC clients are beautiful, they carry an almost Monet type feel to it. Blurry is a good explanation. I think bringing back the crispness of the 2d terrain would bring me back to it more often. I don't think it will be 2D but in 3D or what's the point? I took it as losing that impressionist feeling and making it feel more 'real.'

    I could be way off though. *shrugs*
     
  41. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    Ahh I see what you're saying. No, we're not "remaking" the EC terrain tiles from the Legacy ones. So don't worry about that.

    -Grimm
     
  42. Ashlynn_L

    Ashlynn_L Lore Master
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    Ok, thanks for allaying my fears. It looks like I was jumping to conclusions (but I had to ask!).
     
  43. Eric Ravenwind

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    If someone could help explain whats been talked about so far:

    What is the difference current art assets and "hi-res"? What are the graphics being changed to something we have not seen before, or merging of things?
     
  44. AirmidCecht

    AirmidCecht twitch.tv/airmid
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    I always thought of it as something like this

    [​IMG]
     
  45. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    No, we're not "remaking" the EC terrain tiles from the Legacy ones. So don't worry about that.

    Glad to hear that.
     
  46. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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  47. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    *breathes a sigh of relief*
     
  48. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    It is like in Matrix, what good is a phone call if you are unable to speak, what good is an art update if you are unable to play it continuously. :lol:
     
  49. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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  50. TheGrimmOmen

    TheGrimmOmen UO Legend
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    LOL. And some days it feels like that!

    - Grimm