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Idea to help stabilize UO's economy...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Promathia, Aug 14, 2012.

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  1. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    This is a bit drastic but bear with me. Disable any playercrafted items from being sold to an NPC.

    Let me explain:

    Currently, there is ALOT of gold being introduced into the game. Its as if the US mint decided to just print money with no boundaries. The more and more gold being introduced, the more and more it devalues its actual value, causing massive inflation.

    1. Scripters are behind it all
    2. Scripters farm resources
    3. They have found items that can be crafted whose value to an in game NPC > than value of the resource itself.
    4. They script make the items, and script sell it around to every NPC that will buy it.
    5. They then sell the gold

    Now, no matter WHAT you do, scripters WILL find a way to make an easy income, but it shouldn't be THIS easy. Our in game economy is on the brink of imploding unless UO or the community can find a way to stop it. Thus, my drastic idea, to prevent players from selling crafted items to an NPC. The better solution would be for the Devs to relook at the formula used to value items, and readjust the price an NPC will offer, making it so cost of resource = cost of item. This wont stop free gold, but will stem the bleeding of the overabundance there is today. Another way, would be to introduce a new massive goldsink. Both of these ideas would take time and effort, and would probably take longer to develop, hence why I did not bring them up.


    Something has to be done, whether its what I suggested or not.
     
  2. claudia-fjp

    claudia-fjp Lore Master
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    You mean like they have been for the banks? lol.

    You know I was wondering after the Origin store had a 50% off day why on earth all the tokens doubled in price overnight when they should have gone down. Now they sit at or near 50 mil when they were 18-25 mil. Somehow I don't think selling shields to npcs is responsible for the overnight spike of inflation since that has been around for quite some time. Makes me wonder if there's a new widespread gold dupe or something.
     
  3. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    So...break what is left of the illusion of a real economy just to stop scripters? A crafted product should always exceed the price of the resources consumed.

    How about we just cut the head off the snake and BAN people instead of making life worse for the legitimate players. o_O
     
    #3 Martyna Zmuir, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
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  4. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Legitimate players sell items they craft to NPC? How much gold is the regular player getting by doing that?

    And claudia, pm me and I can share info about the recent price inflation on items.


    Btw, I of course am for just BANNING them, yet ARE they getting banned? No. I wish players hadnt cried so much when they wanted to implement punkbuster
     
    #4 Promathia, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  5. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    The mythical "New Players" people claim to see? Who cares?

    Punish the scripters, not the legit players. Continuously punishing everyone else just drives people away and furthers the idea that Mythic doesn't give a crap about them.
     
  6. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Then legit players should not have complained when they wanted to implement devices such as punkbuster. The scripters arent getting banned, and the economy is not being helped as it continues to spiral out of control. SOMETHING needs to be done, and banning them IS the ideal solution...but its not happening.

    NOONE is being punished by disabling the ability to craft an item and sell it to an NPC besides the scripters. Do you sit around crafting just to sell to an NPC in Luna? Does ANYONE?


    Our economy should be based upon player v player , not player v NPC
     
    #6 Promathia, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  7. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The days of being able to craft and sell to NPCs for a profit got all but completely wasted. There were actually two HUGE "barriers" put into place that made the pre-UO:R system work (I know, because I used Tailoring to save up for my first house): 1. The NPCs only bought 5 items. Not 5 stacks, not max 500 per stack... 5 items per transaction. 2. If you sold a certain number of items, the NPC would become "overstocked" and not buy that item for a while. Since you had several players working this system, this meant that the highest profit item would quickly no longer work so you'd have to change to the next one and so on until a reset.

    Beyond that Martyna is right, punish and get rid of the scriptors. There has been so many topics that have revolved around the ancillary issues with scripting (RMT, etc) but until you get rid of the PROBLEM, you're not solving anything. Player -> NPC transactions aren't the problem, RMT is not the problem. SCRIPTING IS THE PROBLEM.
     
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  8. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Oy vey.

    Fix the actual problem, don't keep slapping bandage on top of bandage. We should be yelling at Mythic to grow a pair and swing the ban hammer, not continue to remove pieces of the virtual world.
     
  9. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Sorry folks... UO Online has become a single player game. With spectators.
     
  10. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Back in the "good 'Ole Days" everyone's first character was a tailor. You would use the scissors you started out with to cust the wool off of sheep, to turn into thread, to make fancy shirts to sell to a tailor. Then when you got "rich enough" you could buy the thread from the tailor to make the shirts and sell. Now adays if there happens to be a new player (which are few and far between) the new players don't do that. With in 2-3 hours a new player is equiped with enough armor so they can go monster hunt and make gold faster than selling items to NPCs. So I don't buy this BS about players not being able to sell skillets to NPC's hurting the new players.
     
  11. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    And again, we had that chance with Punkbuster didnt we?
     
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  12. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Remove the far right digit from every pile of gold, check and vendor holding. 200 mil item is now worth 20 mil and easier to pass checks. GMs get some spending cash to make purchase and sales to theese sites and start to follow the money and ban theese billions gold holding accounts. They want to store gold they will need to have more active accounts. Trial account gold suffling will be an easy catch.
     
  13. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Yeah, MYTHIC wimped out because a vocal minority threw a tantrum. Mythic is on the hook there, it was their call, THEY blew it.
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Which solves exactly nothing, just makes the numbers temporarily smaller. The tracking and banning should be already in action regardless of the number of zeros involved.

    Besides, the reason why people think UO uses an excessive number of zeros is because UO doesn't hide the real number behind a tiered monetary system. Basically it'd be like doing your grocery shopping with pennies.

    Secondly, not everyone's wealth is measured simply in gold pieces. If you're going to delete/devalue in the game to try and rebalance it, you're basically at the point of needing to completely redefine the ingame economy, set up the rebalance and redefinition, then wipe everything and start again from day one.

    And even then, all of that means nothing if nothing is done about scriptors and exploiters.
     
    #14 Dermott of LS, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
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  15. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Listen, I dont disagree with alot of what you all are saying. The scripters NEED to be banned, but they arent nor have they been. SOMETHING needs to be done, before everything just gets out of control
     
  16. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    And you're being told what that SOMETHING is.
     
  17. Ender76

    Ender76 Journeyman
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    Gold is close to worthless now, but I don't think the recent change is due to scripters. I think it's 1) no gold really leaves the system (how much do you burn on vendor fees and insurance per week?) and 2) players are leaving the game and selling everything they have.
     
  18. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    EA isn't going to mass ban people who are paying, at least not right now. The effort would cost EA money both in labor and lost sales, and the topic isn't ideal for their birthday celebration. Hey everyone, our game is 15 years old and controlled by scripters!

    Honestly, I don't think there is a solution. RMT-gold prices should fluctuate, that's pretty normal. The scripters won't get banned and an NPC embargo would only hurt the casual player.
     
  19. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    And the reason I got on UHall was to try to push the word out with others. Sick of mining a cave having to deal with a handful of recall miners hitting the best spots.

    "And even then, all of that means nothing if nothing is done about scriptors and exploiters."

    And the population dwindled as honest players quit. Their hardcore friends lost interest and quit. Whats left is extreem players that invested to much time to quit. Returning or hey whats this temp players. Last the hacks trying to get our last gold piece to stock their site with shinnies to sell for real cash.

    Pricing something now if to cheep so newer or returning players can buy gets bought up for resale at grubber prices. My digit drop turns that 85k sword into an 8.5k sword. The champ gold dump needs to go and all critter HP doubled. One hit killing a demon is just wrong. Those that solo peerless and bosses can bring a bad ass friend and cut the time in half.
     
  20. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    How? What regular player is going to get hurt from not being able to sell a crafted item to an NPC?
     
  21. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Which EA is not going to do, as they dont want to lose that money from the subscribers. So since that WONT be done, lets find another way shall we?
     
  22. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Then you do not know as much about the business that I do. I am sorry I cant go into exact details here, but the recent (within a month or two) drastic drop of gold prices, and the drastice inflation in game is ALL because of the gold that is being pumped into the game cheaply.
     
  23. LetheGL

    LetheGL Seasoned Veteran
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    The amount of gold being created in game is irrelevant. In the past you mined 10 ingots and sold for them 20 gold to buy a fortified exceedingly useless bow of sweetness. Now that bow costs 200 gold, guess what, those 10 ingots will sell for 200 gold now too. It doesn't effect the vast majority of players. It DOES effect the small hand full of people trying to sell the gold for cash. Looks to me from your crying you are of the later group. What's wrong, can't afford to buy that Big Mac now?
     
  24. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    The publish to set up the CC for Punkbuster was the red flag that closed my UO accounts. I was not thrilled, nor would I imagine my employer have been thrilled, to have work brought home onto a computer that I gave another company full access to browse the hard drives of. Punkbuster, consisdering how many games use it, is probably the target of a lot of hackers. I stopped back a few years later and posted a question as to whether Punkbuster was still required to play UO. I was told it hadn't happened so I reinstalled the game and reopened my accounts. Do a search of my posts on stratics & UOForums if you don't believe me. You'll find the post

    Players into Crafting likely sell things they make to NPCs as a big part of thier play. Given insurance, selling to Players isn't really an option worth mentioning. Selling a few dozen items to various vendors is part of my play as a Crafter. If all I'm going to be able to do is break even, then screw it, why play?

    As was said above, until EA grows a pair and starts acting like they have them by banning scriptors, nothing can be done without further screwing over the honest players, and honest players keep on leaving as the screwing over of them goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on, etc, etc,etc, etc, etc.

    EA just has to make a decision. Do they want to keep bleeding customers who are tired of the scripting that goes on and of being screwed over by UO's bandaid silly%^%&*ed attempts to look as if their doing something to stop scripting, or do they want to get rid of the scriptor accounts and hope some old players actually believe something serious finally got done and maybe wander back to UO?

    This idea the OP has to futher screwover honest Players sure will add another nail or two to the coffins of more paying accounts. Impressive brainfart indeed.
     
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  25. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Personally I think EA should sell gold for RL cash (lower than the scripting web pages) and make gold easier to come by. If they flood the economy with legit gold it won't matter what the price per item is and the scripting web pages would be out of business because it wouldn't be worh their time to sell gold at $0.05/mil
     
  26. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    This basically destroys the economy completely.

    EA selling gold would be no different than a duper selling gold. The gold EA would sell would be made the same way, out of thin air OUTSIDE of actual ingame systems. It's counterfeit regardless if it's EA or the duper selling it.

    It wouldn't be the scripting web pages, they'd simply go to the next game. It WOULD however end up with UO out of business.

    Basically EA could TRY to undercut a scripting/gold selling operation, however, once EA sets their price per gold piece, the scriptors will simply lower their price accordingly and still take the business. Meanwhile, the amount of gold ingame becomes more and more and more creating a spiral effect which discourages legitimate players and drives them from the game. Removing these players also takes out a lot of the customer base for RMT which in turn DOES take out the scriptors... AFTER the legit players are gone. End result... UO dies.

    If you go outside of the confines of the UHall and read on MMO sites or simply articles where UO ends up being discussed in the comments (generally by ex-players), once you get beyond the "I wanna PK" posts many of the complaints with UO from ex players are due to exploiters and scriptors, NOT because EA didn't sell gold themselves.
     
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  27. Phangs_of_Phage

    Phangs_of_Phage Journeyman

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    Really, your for banning cheaters. Didnt you beg GOLRATH to play with you a few months ago. He single handedly damaged the UO economy more than anyone in history.
     
  28. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Everyday stuff. Selling shoes to an NPC just to clear your fisher's backpack, for example. Not everything is about making profit and you're looking at the problem as if it's black and white.

    I guess if they have a filter crafted versus non-crafted the previous issue could be avoided. Shrugs. Doesn't solve duping, or gold scripting off mobs. There's always going to be a problem. Punkbuster would have been temporary, as well. Wouldn't have solved all the current exploits.
     
    #28 G.v.P, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  29. Driven Insane

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    Maybe don't play UO on a work owned computer?

    Lame excuse not to implement a program that could have at least helped reduce the number of cheaters that have plagued this game for far to long.
     
  30. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Wasn't work owned. It was my computer.

    Hardly a lame excuse. A setup that requires you to give full permission to access anything on your computer and that is as likely a major target of hackers who would gain access to millions of gamer's computers is not a good thing. Read the Punkbuster ToS, you give such permission. EA just would of had someone else to be the evil one dropping the axe on the poor innocent wronged scriptors who got caught.
     
  31. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Sage
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    You're "work" doesn't have very rigid rules about bringing IP protected information home on your personal computer? Or you're using your personal computer on the company's network to play UO?

    I don't get it. Either way one of you are doing something wrong. Punkbuster isn't the issue. You need a separate computer for your personal use or you need to stop using a corporate network for unapproved use. This is corporate workplace 101 stuff.
     
  32. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Do not want to ban scripters ? Then at least implement CAPs to whatever activity can be scripted, starting from resources gathering.

    And set the CAPs (weekly CAPs would work easier, IMHO) to whatever a casual player can reasonably get done in that time frame. How long can a casual player play UO per week ? 4 hours ? 6 hours ? Then set the CAP to any given scriptable activity to, say, max 2 hours per week. Anything past that would simply produce nothing, nada. This way, a scripter could be logged 24/7 but still would end up with only the same 2 hours results as everyone else........

    Though, I'd rather prefer to see scripting gone for good from the game.......
     
    #32 popps, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  33. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    The rules were your computer had to have a very good security setup.

    My computer was on my own cable hookup at home.

    Computer Internet use at work was documented by the system and monitored. Unlike many who post how they play UO or browse the forums at work instead of doing their job, any doing so would have found their rump in a sling the following morning. We were being paid to do a job, not waste time on non-work whatever. An older work ethic that has apparently gone out of style the last couple of generations. People under 50 or so tend to have a much different set of ethics.
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    cap how much you can sell to npc vendors per day!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  35. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I tell you man I used to spend my time in UO policing scripters 24/7. If I found one I'd page a GM and wait until sweet justice was served. Then one day I run across a guy AFKing, and when the GM comes this guy has a script which gates a second character for a dialogue then makes both characters leave. You can't even police scripters because the scripts are too advanced and have GM detection, lol it's nuts.

    I did more than my share to try and fix this game as a player, but you know what? It isn't a priority of the company because they know it's too hard to fix, especially if dropping cheaters means losing sales. Even for the legit people like myself, I still use UOA. I can't imagine playing UO: 2D without some kind of third party program, and I'm pretty sure EA knows that. Every time UO has had a producer who wants to get rid of scripters/dupers guess what happens to said producer? They get fired. Draconi burned down houses, Cal tried to tackle cheaters, both short lived employees. Shrugs.

    Scripting itself isn't the problem though, you have to look at why people began to script. For example, Star Wars Galaxies let players build loop macros within the game client, and AFK scripting was allowed but if you did AFK script you would lose out on extra loot chances (for mining), or player tips (entertainment). I'm not sure if UO could do anything similar, like, say if you're script mining, I'm sure a script would be able to click OK to a gump. But aside from scripting for a clear advantage, UO is so damn antiquated it's pathetic. We don't even have separate threads for spell groups within UO: CC macros. Then we have systems which encourage scripting, like the Heartwood quests.
     
  36. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Come to siege we don't have scripters! tee hee :p
     
  37. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    What would happen if all pricing on non-siege shards became like that of siege? Wouldn't that start removing the gold from play 3 x as fast as before?
     
  38. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    What? No crafter I know of has to depend on selling their items to NPC vendors to make gold. If you are a crafter, nowadays you make gold from - Imbuing + Reforging. You still also make gold from BODs and selling runics to OTHER people who want to reforge. PoF's also still sell well.

    This whole "The casual player will be hurt!" argument is nonsense. The casual player doesn't craft just to sell to an NPC.


    And whether Cetric was serious or not, a Cap per day would most likely work as well.
     
  39. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    no need too. you have no players there. j/k.
     
  40. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    I think because of the various factors such as difference in age, casual vs regular vs addicted players, intelligence that a solution for everyone is difficult. I don't mind a gold sink to allow the rich to spend their gold and the poor to strive towards as long as it doesn't favor any type of players in any way or affects the game mechanics. Perhaps a NPC high end store for collectables? It's no different than me owning a billion gp item vs my next door neighbor owning a 10 mil item except that the gp i spent goes to air when NPCs takes them.
     
  41. Varrius

    Varrius Sage
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    I hope the people that are claiming to make gold off of selling stuff to npc's are joking. If not, I will donate the 200 gp that they make a day if we can stop the scripters from doing this.
     
  42. Joey Porter

    Joey Porter Guest

    I will put my tinfoil hat on here for this topic. Hear me out.

    This game comes down to money for EA and making as much money as they can. Scripters pay a monthly fee so they will not ban them. Some may use trial accounts but there are plenty of full accounts being paid for. This is a given.

    You hear from time to time that the 3rd party sites that sell items and gold are owned and operated by EA. I do not believe this is true but I can almost guarantee you that EA is getting a cut of the profits and encouraging these sites. Otherwise they would be shut down in a second so that the EA store could make more money.

    I would venture a guess that the income they earn off this arrangement rivals what they make in subscriptions.
     
  43. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    I don't "has to" either. I choose to. :rolleyes: I've a hundred plus million gold checks taking up bank storage for crying out loud. :)


    I DO!? Really!! Oh golly gee... :oops: Never noticed. Must have just been to busy having fun Crafting things and selling them off to NPCs.

    Actually I don't mess aroundwith Runics much. To many zeroes attached to the prices. Reforging is something I haven't done yet and have no plans to do since I found out they require runic tools. I do Imbue items on the rare occasion someones insurance screws up, they make a new character, or a suit sells off my vendor.


    I DO!? Really!! Oh golly gee... :oops: Never noticed. Must have just been to busy having fun Crafting things and selling them off to NPCs.

    I hate the BOD system. Runic's screwed Crafting armor and weapons as badly as the Act of Stupidy combat changes when monster loot was made better than Legendary Crafters could make. Therefore I DON"T make gold from selling runics and don't get PoF's to sell. The extent of my screwing around with the BOD system is to get them and give good ones to a friend who is into doing them.


    We DON'T!? Really!! Oh golly gee... :oops: Never noticed. Must have just been to busy having fun Crafting things and selling them off to NPCs.

    True, we do an occasional thing to sell to other Players. An exception to the rule.


    Bull droppings! It'll only screw over Crafters who do sell to NPCs instead of what your apparently *All Knowing* Omnipitent self KNOWS is REALLY happening.

    Quit being part of the problem. The idea is to screw over the Scriptors so they go away, Not screw over the honest Players so they go away.
     
    #43 Tanivar, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
    Martyna Zmuir likes this.
  44. Varrius

    Varrius Sage
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    It looks like one of these scripters finally speaks
     
  45. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    No, one of those scriptors hasn't spoken. :) My scripting is entirely done via UOAssist and has to be restarted every few minutes manually.

    Just have to make such accusations when someone shows your crowds comment is a load of used puppychow don't you. :rolleyes:

    Clearly neither of you are really Crafters, you may have crafting characters, but your not truely Crafters. Your attitudes and comments settle that question easily.
     
  46. Driven Insane

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    So I'm guessing you don't have a virus or ad-ware scanner installed?

    I'm not even going to get back into this topic about Punkbuster. There's zero proven cases of them using their access to steal anyone's information for their own gain. Just the same old tired BS reason that people who have something to hide used to stop EA from implementing what would have been the best thing for UO.

    And trust me, nothing you're bringing home from work is that valuable. Because having worked in the financial and mortgage fields I can tell you the fact that you're even allowed to put work information onto your own system means either it's worthless information or your company's IT department/management is a joke.
     
  47. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    So let me get this straight, when you player your crafter, all you did is craft...and then sell to an NPC?

    ..........................
     
  48. Driven Insane

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    So because we don't waste our time making useless items to sell to NPC's for a tiny amount of gold we're not crafters? If that's your only requirement to be a crafter, then I'm afraid 99.9% of the UO population are not crafters.

    By your own admission. You don't use runics, don't know anything about Reforging and don't do Bods. Sounds to me like you're the one who's not a real crafter because the stuff you're crafting is garbage that only NPC's will take. Whereas the stuff we're crafting is valuable and in demand by the rest of the UO players.
     
    #48 Driven Insane, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  49. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    How do you stabilize UO economy when duping and scripting is pretty much an accepted practice of don't ask don't tell.......

    Until those two issues are resolved, no real way to bring it under control. Lets not even get into those gold sellers that controls the flows of gold on various shards and the price fixing issue on high end items because of the cash sites.
     
  50. Varrius

    Varrius Sage
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    It's pretty obvious that Tanivar is one of these scripters we're talking about. Who would play UO to craft items that cost about 8 gold and sell them to an NPC for 10 gold by hand?
    Nobody should be buying this bs...
     
    #50 Varrius, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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