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Idealistic thought: Siege Pledge....

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by archite666, Dec 27, 2008.

  1. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    So I have this idea, consider it like a "pay it forward" (thttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward) type idea. I know this may sound melodramatic but I believe in theory my idea could really work if there were people out there with enough character to execute it. Iv come here for an opinion from you all, my would be conspirators, because while my idea my look good in my head and on paper...so did Communism, and I believe that like Communism my idea could fail for similar esthetics reasons.

    My idea I rightfully title, the Siege Pledge, but we could change it to something else more elegant in the future, consider this its "working name" like how the girl at the place calls herself Candy but when you ask when she gets off, you get escorted out.

    So my idea, this Siege Pledge, is basicly an idea or an oath that we, a select few players even, could take that would denote our love for the community of Siege and our willingness to play with a sense of "honor" or possibly not even something called honor, perhaps with style, or gravitus.

    Hence why I am here, to ask my fellow players what actions or code, would a select few players find suitable for such a "pledge" Some ideas that come to mind are:

    -No looting
    -selling loot back at a reasonable price
    -no killing NEW
    -no ganking
    -no rez killing
    -no mount killing

    These are a few ideas that come off the top of my head, but if you as a Siege Player could pick a list of rules for everyone to follow, what you like? and what would you be able to follow?

    Understand my goal is to pick a set of rules and begin my quest to find people from all over, all guilds who would agree to follow this "code" in order to bring a sense of community back to siege, I know it sounds crazy but if a group of people actually did that, actually acted with a sense of "siege honor" (Yet to be defined) we could perhaps influence a change of mood.

    As a side note, I believe such people could use their guild title to reflect this, such as putting "Siege Pledged" or something we all agree on in their guild title for all to see.

    So there it is, my idea. The concept that when you have that awesome fight and lose and the guy is so impressed, he simply tosses you a rez and says good fight and you guys talk briefly about how awesome it was, and you think back to a better time when this happened more frequently.

    It is that idea, that makes me think there are people out there who would consider giving this a try.

    Well, what do you think Siege Perilous?
     
  2. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    I was going to rewrite this change stratics to Siege but im too tired to do it now :sleep2:

     
  3. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Tis a good point, although im really looking for some freedback.
     
  4. HooderSP

    HooderSP Journeyman
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    Cash I am with you all the way on this. I would add one to this...

    tamers can use their pets in pvp until they die then they have to park pet and just become a healer.

    I have been practicing the code you are talking about with the tamer addition.
     
  5. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    This Social Contract is nothing but a Trust Game!

    Tell me how can it work?

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  6. Sprago

    Sprago Certifiable
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    I would love for this to happen being that im a solo player but it will never happen there are some members of KOC and TNT that will not do this and the reason i know this is because it happens now. Dismount pet kills is a great thing TNT known for and KOC has there dismount mage dump which is just as deadly.
     
  7. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Yes I of course understand this sir, and I applaud your awesome example of running solo, but thats the thing, its not a "guild thing" it is a individual thing, your represent it by saying it publicly or displaying it in your guild title, your guild can still do whatever, you can still participate in group battles if thats what is decided, its a "personal" code of conduct.

    Many of us, such as myself and hooder practice this already, I wish to give this practice a name and so we could spread this idea.

    Also sprago I believe this kind of behavior is because people run and play cowardly, and other people want to kill someone so the only way to kill someone who runs is to dismount them, I believe is my practice were to become long term, you would see less of the ganking.

    What I'm trying to say is the "strength is numbers" tactic is a result of the bad behavior we exhibit, if dieing didnt mean being dry looted and **** talked maybe people would be willing to be brave and fight and even die. If people get to kill people on a regular basis, I dont think we would result to under handed tactics, after all I dont really believe its about the loot, with the new faction loot, you cant use it anyway. So why does everyone keep it? for when THEY DIE, so were not killing each other for loot, were killing each other for sport and I think this code will make our sport much more fun.

    After all we have to do something, the way we have done things for so long is obviously driving us into oblivion.
     
  8. ChumBucket

    ChumBucket Guest

    I agree on many of your points, Archite. The griefing is out of control right now, and it ruins the game for many who love this shard. There will always be griefers, as we all know. And there will always be those who hold themselves to less stringent standards than we do ourselves. But by and large, I think the community of Siege would embrace a move toward a more "civil" existence.

    Notes on your suggested guidelines:

    -Light looting (not looting at all eliminates the sense of "risk")

    -no ganking (Ganks honestly are, in my view, part of the appeal of Siege. While I don't like being on the receiving end of one, I must admit the danger of running into one is, again, part of the appeal of Siege)

    -no rez killing (I must agree wholeheartedly with this, as there is no purpose to it aside from griefing)

    I applaud you, Archite, for standing up and tabling this suggestion. I can only hope there are enough folks willing to set aside their personal differences to make it work.
     
  9. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *smiles* Pendulums swing. It is the nature of things.
     
  10. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Awesome glad to see the interest, so Im trying to draw feedback from these posts, it seems some major points stand out.

    Light looting, taking only what you need.

    No killing of NEW, is this one possible? Or do some still like to haze the newbies?

    Rez killing, never a good thing.

    Any other major points im missing?
     
  11. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    While I firmly support your ideals, there is no way to "legislate" play style.
     
  12. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron The DarkOutlaws, TDO

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    "Pay it forward" is much the rules we have for TDO. I to believe if enough of us do it, mor will follow.

    I think one set rules for the whole shard is not possible, but if it would help if each guildmaster did set a set of rules for their guild..


    -No looting. I will say only loot what they need. Some guilds will loot less than others but I don't really see looting as the biggest problem. In TDO, we won't loot your suit, including weapon and jewelry. We may loot resources or your loot bag, but most times we won't.

    -selling loot back at a reasonable price. This are a hard one. As some players/guilds always will loot for profit, I guess this have to be solved. I see the problem with factions items, they are easy to get and you can't resell them to others than the owner. As you can't use them, you can have different reasons to loot them.
    -Pure Grief
    -Selling back for profit
    -Stopping the player from rejoining the fight
    -Punisment for bad actions
    With other items, the rules are much the same but very few will offer to sell back, they will use it them self, add it to guild store or sell it for profit. It was hard to see if it was grief looting unless we was told the items was trashed or cutted up.

    -no killing NEW. Alot do not kill NEW but there will always be some who do, maybe because of RP or it's their way to say welcome to the shard. No looting of NEW and guarding their items to they are back would be more realistic.
    Also it would be nice for NEW to know what guilds who may kill them so they know when to run and when to chat.

    -no ganking. Ganking is not the problem, we can't expect always to have fair fights. The problem is, when ganked, you will offen end up dry looted and rez killed too. If ganks remember to loot light and not rez kill, it would not be a problem but if all want to grap something from your corpes, there may not be much left.

    -no rez killing only reason for rez killing should be if the player try to loot before he is allowed or he is crying/pancakes to much . Many times, staying away from your corpes and acting polite after rez will safe you from rez killing

    -no mount killing As it's mostly young account, that will be on a mount, I would like to see no rez killing as they may not be able to use an e-mount or affort a Charger of the Fallen.

    But even with a set of rules like this, we may have griefers on the shard that deserve to be teached a leason.

    I had seen in the years of playing, being known as honorable and follow a set of rules like this, will make many pay back the favor forward, even when I never successed killing them so it do work.
     
  13. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes it can be a individual thing but then you can only run with guildmembers who agree to rules. If you happen to be in a group, that be for spawn, and attacked and your group kill the attackers, it do not help much, you do follow the rules, if the rest of the group don't. It will become a guild thing if the dead players end up looted and rez killed.

    When I was in UDL, I had my set of rules, but it did I could not run with guildmembers if I knew one of them would heavy loot or all would loot what they did need and leave the corpes clean. I would choose to run sole.
    I did manage to stay tru to my rules, but it was not easy.

    Some guilds already have rules like this, GIL comes in mind.

    I think each Guildmaster will have to decide if it count for the whole guild or it's up to the members.

    TDO already made this choice, if a member can't follow the rules, he can't be in TDO no matter how much I loke the guy/gal.
    We do see it pay off already :)
     
  14. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    You misunderstand me sir kelmo, i'm not asking for the whole shard, im not even asking for a majority, I'm asking the opinion of people who would interested in this, what "guidelines" they would or DO follow, I certainly dont expect alot of people to be interested in this.

    I think of it like a gentlemens agreement, I could think of a few people who would embrace this, although many of them may no longer play.

    With that said....I miss righty.... :(
     
  15. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    some people already play this way, I'm very happy to say.
    When I first tried pvp on Europa I devised for myself such a code, though not quite as comprehensive as yours. I posted that I would be using it and someone named it Petra's lore. He, and several others, declared that they would follow it too. It reads as follows:

    1. I accept defeat in combat, I will not re-arm if rezed and attempt to continue the battle.
    2. I accept 'right of conquest' if I'm beaten in combat my goods are forfeit. I will step away from my corpse to acknowledge this. In victory this right is mine and I shall exercise it.
    3. If victorious I will not gloat over my opponent's misfortune
    4. I will not, except in defence of my person, harm my opponent's mount.
    5. I will use all means I can to prolong my own life - including pots and petals.

    When others said they'd use it I put in a red book and carried it in Fel, it was often looted and sometimes copied with another name put to it.

    Took me about a year to admit I'd never be any good at pvp, I don't have the reactions or aggresive instincts that it needs. :D
     
  16. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Very good, very good.

    I like hearing of other exploits. I will think hard on how guilds and group pvp would be reflected in this..
     
  17. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    One thing that happened to me when I was pvping on Europa.

    I ran into a group of 5 i-c, a guild of pks I knew well. I was blue, they were red. I was bound to die. However, they surrounded me without attacking and then told me to nominate one of their number. I did so and that was the person I fought. The other four simply stood in a circle around us, preventing me from fleeing the battle (not that I had any intention of doing so anyway) and took no other part.

    This is the kind of thing I'd like to see happen on Siege. They knew I ran solo, if I'd been in a guild I might have been given the choice of nominating one or calling in 4 to make an even battle.

    Don't get me wrong, i-c were no angels, I got this choice because they knew and liked me, they quite happily ganked those they considered 'enemies'. While I might have hoped they behaved the same way to others, they didn't. Maybe Siege players could go one better by offering this kind of choice to all when a group comes across a solo?
     
  18. Sprago

    Sprago Certifiable
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    You were talking about looting and light looting i know when i was in a group i used to loot not for the loot but disable my opponent which is regs and any high end items to prevent them from returning to battle right away the looting might be a problem for poeple, but i like your ideas i would like to see poeple follow this.
     
  19. Sprago

    Sprago Certifiable
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    That would be nice doubtful though but would be nice
     
  20. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Good Good, so lets toss around some ideas,

    How I see it, looting shouldnt be that big of a deal, most are in factions and are disabled, perhaps followers of the code would show leanency toward each other.
     
  21. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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  22. Queen Amy

    Queen Amy Guest


    I don't know if you see it this way, but I do:

    Raiding is not an honorable activity. Raiding a champ spawn is easy for the raiders, hard for the defenders. Therefore, the spawn defenders should not be thought less of for doing whatever it takes to defend -- even if that means attacking with greater dragons, or luring monsters onto the attackers.
     
  23. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Agreed raiding should still be no holds barred.
     
  24. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Sure you should do anything in your power to run the raiders off and stop them from coming back and reattacking but that do not mean it's ok to be an ass to the attackers unless they deserve it.
     
  25. Naitachal_SP

    Naitachal_SP Guest

    I had to laugh today when Elmer Fudd tried to pk me while I was killing gamans in Homare.. I don't have a single skill over 80 and he still couldn't drop me. Of course I ran for my life, but if you're going to try to pk someone from NEW, at get the job done..
     
  26. Isn't this a mission statement? Look what good it did to Jerry McGuire....:scholar:

    I challenge you Cash to a duel, you sniveling wanna be sniveler. As Black Magic can contest to me not being much of a dueler, I will sugguest the same to you...come kill me and looting is a right of yours, I will loot you if perhaps I kill you. This is Siege, keep the looting......don't loot if your in a grey robe.


    Tomorrow the 4th Umbra arena, 1 o'clock pst if you are worthy enough to try.
     
  27. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    4th umbra arena?
     
  28. Mystikal GIL

    Mystikal GIL Guest

    I play under these rules everyday Cash. Seems like a great idea to me.

    I will ask Hoffs if we can do the guild title thing.
     
  29. 4th of January (Today) at the Umbra Arena, north of Doom. :)
     
  30. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Must run virus scan, will need one more hour.
     
  31. You've got plenty of time, it won't be until 1 o'clock....2 hours...
     
  32. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    An epic story of the event will soon follow...

    I freaking had it almost complete...like 14 paragraphs of awsomeness and frickin my internet explorer decided to refresh, now im tired and need sleep. I will complete it and post along with pics soon.

    Leave you guys in suspence.
     
  33. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Still working on it...will be done soon.
     
  34. In your uberness, you pwned me. Need there be more said?
     
  35. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Shhh! I'm creating a cool roleplay story about it. Probably have it done today.
     
  36. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    doh...double post...damned lag...la
     
  37. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Ummm, if there is no looting...how might one sell back loot?

    To hell with that. I find a corpse...I will take anything of value (to me). If you want it back, I'll sell it...but at my price. If the previous owner doesn't like the price. It will either get stashed away in a chest in my tower...or into the trash bin...la
     
  38. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    It has to be a guild thing too. And that's the problem. Most people it seems are willing to sacrifice things like honor, quality membership, etc. if it means more members/more victories. Individuals not in guilds can take your pledge no problem. But people in guilds won't and should not. If they truly want to play with honor or whatever it is you wish to call it, then they should find people who agree with their way of playing to play with. But you can't say you won't reskill, loot, mount kill, gank, (insert any of many possible rules here) if your mates do such things. You'll be caught in situations where you break your pledge due to the people you play with. Very unlikely, but possible: You're able do what you pledged, refuse to participate in the less honorable activities of your guildmates even when seemingless forced into them, and your guild has no problem with it...still, how can you be an honorable player if you surround yourself and ally yourself with those you deem unhonorable, the people who should be your enemies.

    If Siege players want to do something really good they should fight off all the rats on Siege that do things like scam, cheat, exploit, grief.

    It helps, but in the end it doesn't accomplish much if you say "well let them do as they wish, but I won't cheat or grief." So fracking what if you don't cheat when you still welcome the greifers, cheaters, etc. with open arms, trade with them, guild with them, ally with them, and so on.


    As for specific rules, the guilds I was in kept to these rules or similar ones:

    No cheating, exploiting, griefing, scamming. I think these are the core rules every guild and player should follow.

    The rest of playing honorably depends on who you ask, but I believe a large part of it is:
    No reskilling, with exceptions. Yes, some rules need exceptions.
    No trash talking, or trash talking kept to a minimum.
    Light looting. Loot what you need. Don't loot just to loot and then trash it later on.

    My opinion of ganking: If you're with a group and happen upon a single player or a group of much less size, then go for it if you want. I wouldn't ask players to always find equal numbers to fight. That's just silly. What I disagree with is the cowards who only care about winning and don't give a **** about a good fight that will always call in backup. If you meet someone 1 on 1, then fight them one on one. Why do you need to call in 5 players? I think the "playing to win" attitude has hurt honorable play in so many ways, including this zerg attitude of never fighting a good fight, always having more numbers.

    NEW: Be careful. It's Siege. No one should be untouchable. The guilds I've been in have gone back and forth with NEW. Sometimes we didn't kill them. Sometimes they were targets, but we treated them differently than other targets. I don't think attacking NEW is necessarily a bad thing and NEW attackers certainly shouldn't be labeled as scum. It's how you treat NEW after you kill them that matters. Don't dry loot (or loot at all). Offer a res and if you have time some advice. And so on. The scum are the people that grief NEW for kicks. But NEW and new players need not be sheltered like some baby angels. They came to Siege for more risk. Give it to them...just don't be asses.

    Mount killing: Again, there has to be exceptions. And there's so many exceptions to this rule I wouldn't make it a rule at all. There are so many reasons to kill a mount. The "no mount killing" you're after falls under "no griefing" and so there need not be a "no mount killing" rule. I assume the people you have a problem with are those who kill mounts they don't need to kill, doing so just to be an ass, and not the people who kill mounts for tactical reasons. You can still kill mounts for tactical reasons and avoid killing them just to be an ass if you keep to the no griefing rule.


    Good luck with your pledge.

    Take all that for what it's worth since I don't play anymore.
     
  39. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    PyLethius had run KSS on HONOR ...I still follow many of his rules myself.

    He always felt there is NO NEED to dryloot any opponents, merely looting that which may keep them out of coming back too soon to battle, ie take lightly some of their regs or bandages, potions, so that they perhaps would be disabled BRIEFLY. I can not recall any KSS ever reskilling for *sport* either. Just was not done.

    Always offer an opponent a res...treat others with dignity and or the way one wishes themselves to be treated, no trash talkin at them, simply saying good fight, win loose or draw is really all that is sufficient no trash talkin needed.

    Fight honorably..ie no cheating.

    As for NEW, we KSS and MYTH as Aeric set it up had never killed any of NEW, nor will I ever *if ever I could I still would not* but others also feel they should not be coddled. I say if one kills a NEW ..offer them a res and a welcome to Siege and if time give them so info or advise. No need to treat any victims, new or old, like TRASH ever.

    Simply DO unto others as you would wish them to do unto you out there...or be the better man or woman given the chance to do so ...strive to treat others with respect even if killing em dead. It is a game a community, no need to DRY LOOT everyone everytime, no need to trash talk to the ghosts one has killed like they are subhumans...they are not. KILL cleanly live and die with dignity honor humor and respect..not really that hard to do..just pretend that other person is YOURSELF and treat them like you wish to be treated out there. *but then I am maybe just an oddball here never see the point to treat others here like garbage* :)
     
  40. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Oiy! your posts are always too long to read, seriously though, I like how everyone tells me why it wont work and whats flawed about it and speaks for the what the siege community will do, little do you know what iv actually had alot of support, more than what I thought id get and am in the final stages of completing it, I just have alot on my plate right now.

    But its comming along, and it works, already had some really good fights with "honorable" out comes
     
  41. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    If you're going to ask for thoughts, don't complain about length.

    And I was supporting your pledge of honor idea, or else I'd probably have made a shorter post dissing it and left it at that. Also, if you're serious about it, you should pay attention to what people say about what's flawed about it so you can improve it/make it more realistic.

    I stand by what I said that having just anyone take the pledge is a bad idea. If people are guilded, the guild needs to follow the code. Individual pledges are fine when they're lone wolfs. Otherwise, willing guilds and alliances can take the pledge and all their members be expected to follow it if they wish to remain members.

    One last thing: It might be best to have a list of absolute requirements, and then the rest be general guidelines. Not everyone has the same idea of honorable play. Just as an example, if I was still playing and found everything in your pledge to be perfect except for say no reskilling at all, I wouldn't take it because I think there needs to be some exceptions to reskilling. Get the important rules down as absolutes and allow for some to be flexible. You'll get more people following the code that way too...

    For example: "No scamming" can be one of the absolute rules. "Treat NEW well" can be one the more flexible rules...as opposed to "No attacking NEW at all" which would exclude the people that are honorable towards NEW but still attack them.

    Good luck.
     
  42. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I have to agree with Masu, guilds have to choose to be in or out.
    It will always be possible for a player to build his reputations, but many look at the guild as whole.

    Several guilds including GIL and TDO already follow this rules and I would love to see more guilds follow, it can only make Siege a better place.

    It won't be trammel, as there always will be griefers on the shard, who only care about own fun. They may end up finding it harder to find fights as they fail to share the fun.

    I had heard players/guilds tell TDO, we are welcome to raid them as they rather fight us than <Inset guildname>.

    Not many will stay and fight if they know they sucks in PvP and know they will die and lose everything.

    Making guilds choose if they are in or out, may split up some guilds, but that may not be all bad, maybe a guild as KSS again will know who is the enemies and and can gain members who will try to teach the grief guilds some maneres.

    I made the choice for my guild, I refuse to let be a guild players join to be safe in numbers or join to be in same guild as the PK's they fear on the field. There need to be more in a guild charecter than that.

    Your new ideas, guilds with honor code and Spree's new alliance may really do good for Siege and bring the fun back to the shard.

    In the past, Siege had lots of small and large RP guilds, most of them was runned off with AoS as it become to hard to replace PvP gear. Devs are trying to nerf the effect of AoS with easier access to better gear, we can help with limit the lose on death.

    We want players from normal shards to join Siege, lets give them fun instead of grief when they come here, then maybe they will stay and the shard can start to grow.
     
  43. So long the days have past that Castor was war'ing everyone.....I always liked Castor. *sighs*
     
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