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Ideas on Balancing Consumables

Discussion in 'UO Factions' started by Lore Denin (GL), Apr 19, 2010.

  1. Lore Denin (GL)

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    This is a brainstorming thread to get players views on ways to balance consumables in factions and in pvp in general. Consumables include items like bandages, potions, magical apples, bola's, etc.

    The general consensus is that if an item can be used in place of a skill or more effectively then a skill, then it is overpowered and reduces the quality of pvp and play in general.

    To kick off the thread I always found that items tied to skill as an effective way to balance consumables...

    For example, Few people complain about bandages as being over powered... they can heal damage, cure poison, res the dead and they can be used on yourself, others and pets....

    However bandages are balanced in many ways. The speed at which they work is tied to your Dex, the effectiveness they work is tied the skills of healing, anatomy and vet. Plus they have an extremely limited range of one tile and damage can disrupt their effectiveness.

    Contrast that to Bola's, which are a consumable that gets a lot of critizism. It does have game mechanics in place to help balance (Thrower must be on foot, disarmed and can not remount immediately upon throwing). However, none of the balance mechanisms are tied to skill. In addition, it is an offensive consumable (an attack against another) which a defender has no defense.

    The Bola
    Suggested Change:Bola's are a consumables which all players should be able to use and have a decent chance of successfully dismounting another without a specific skill.

    Base percentage for a Bola to hit 65% [opposed to the current 100%]

    However, a players skills in related areas can increase the chance of success.

    -Tactics: Increase percentage 5% for every 40 points in tactics
    -Throwing: Increase percentage 5% for every 30

    Thus increasing the base percentage to dismount up to 100% with Lengedary Tactics and Throwing.

    An attackers HCI (max of 50 *since this would be technically a throwing consumable)and defenders DCI (Max 45) should be included in modifying the attack chance as well as a characters Parry skll to block the attack.

    This allows the consumable to be used by anyone however it gives characters with related skills a higher success rate then players who have no related skills (sorry taming, and magery are not related to bola throwing).

    The entire formula for the game would look something like this:
    [45 + (Tactics/40 * 5) + (Throwing/30*5)] + [Attackers HCI (Max 50) - Defenders DCI (Max 45)] - [Parry Percentage]

    As players we have the luxary of letting the game do the math for each throw and all we need is the basica understanding that High levels of hci, tactics, and throwing will give us the best chance of success while a defender understand that high DCI and parry skill will give them the best chance to dodge.

    Lore
     
  2. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Hah I see you read my idea lore. ^^

    I think all consumable items should be more tied to skills. EP on pots is better than having 100 alchemy, so instead make ep half of what the "suggested" amount is, and then double it if you have 100 alchemy, maybe even on top of the alchemy bonus we currently get? Basically if you have 50 EP it should only count as 25 if you have 0 alchemy and 50 if you have 100 alchemy, scaled in some form.

    Maybe a list of other consumables people might feel need Balancing? At the moment it seems potions and Bolas are in the cross hairs.
     
  3. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Personally cant stand apples working on *Mage* curse.

    Most 1v1s i get turn into,

    Curse - Apple - Run for 15 Seconds until they can apple again.
    Curse - Apple - Run for 15 Seconds until they can apple again.
    Curse - Apple - Run for 15 Seconds until they can apple again.
    *Person runs out of apples* - Run until they can get in a house to get more.

    But hey, thats personal opinion of course.
     
  4. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Balancing Potions

    Your idea of balancing potions is very similiar to the one I was working on...

    Here is a sample scale I was working on that links Alchemy skill to the effectiveness of your enhance potions capping its effectiveness based on alchemy skill:

    Alchemy Skill______Enhance Potions Cap
    0-40: (10% Enhance Potions)
    41-75: (20% Enhance Potions)
    76-90: (30% Enhance Potions)
    91-99.9 (40% Enhance Potions)
    100: (50 Enhance Potions)

    In addition I thought adding a timer similiar to bandages would be make sense. This would be a universal timer for any potion.

    140+ Dex: (7 seconds between potions)
    125 Dex: (8 Seconds between potions)
    90 Dex: (9 seconds between potions)
    50 Dex: (10 seconds between potions)
    30 Dex: (11 seconds between potions)
    0-29: (12 seconds between potions)

    **Using a Balance Weapon increases the time between potions by 3 seconds.
    *GM alchemy gives a - 2 to the timer between potions.

    -Lore
     
  5. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Proposed change to Enchanted Apples:

    Link the Apple Timer between consuming apples to Cooking.

    0-40 - (30 seconds)
    41-50 - (25 seconds)
    51-65 - (20 seconds)
    66-90 - (15 seconds)
    91-99 - (10 seconds)
    100 - (0 seconds for a Grandmaster Cook)

    -Lore
     
  6. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Well in all reality, Necro is .. Very Very powerful without the use of apples, im not gonna lie.

    In my opinion versus Strangle and Bloodoath, apples are *Almost* required, I never use them because a Good Harm spam can stop Strangle pretty easy.

    But yeah, apples are almost required against Necro, But Mage curse, not so much.
     
  7. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I agree with both of your posts, but its the "almost" part that makes it an option, and so long as it is an option its effectiveness should be limited. There is a skill for remove curse, Chiv, you effectively replace needing (i know its a low number) 55 skill points and 4/6 casting with an item. So with the propositions here you would have to at least have a skill for it to be most effective.
     
  8. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Bolas used to require tactics to use. It was taken out because player's complained it was unfair.
     
  9. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    True enough, but for every complaint there is a counter complaint. The population of the community does not get a say in what is and isn't, only those of us who are willing to speak out at the time get to say what happens This means it is not always in the best interest of the community, as not everyone thinks that way.
     
  10. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Apples still work, they just can't be relied upon as heavily without Cooking [once every 30 seconds at 0 cooking]. Plus, I know of at least 3 additional ways to remove curse off the top of my head....

    Apples, Faction Bandages, Remove Curse [Chiv], Healing Winds [Mysticism], Stone Form (works on strangle)[Mysticism]

    Also factor in that Resist Spells is a skill which specifically counters the effectiveness of both Necro and Mage Curses.

    -Lore

    "I attacked a man in the outskirts of Skara Brae and cursed him repeatedly, and each time he defeated my spell by simply eating an apple... I told him to throw away the crutch and fight me!"

    "He told me I'm not a crutch, I'm a cook."

    Except from the Wacky Britannian Adventures of Alexander GramTram.
     
  11. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Exactly... Bola's still won't require Tactics but having tactics will improve your chances of using them successfully...

    The base chance to use a Bola would be 65% with no tactics or throwing.

    Lore
     
  12. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    I think bolas have plenty of restrictions and enough restrictions you wouldnt use a bola when you could just use the skill dismount instead. That means I dont see any advantage of using the bola over the skill.

    Bola gives everyone the ability to snare an apponent. This is very good, as it cuts the kiting way down. People who end up complaining about the bolas are more than not people who use kiting as their main tactic.

    This echoes the same with the apples. You would use the skill before using an apple. It has no advantage over the skill.

    However it gives everyone the ability to remove curses, so if the curse is your one trick pony then your in trouble.

    Moral of the story, dont be one dimentional in a fight. Have other options for different situations. One thing isnt going to work all the time, smart pvpers will not be one dimentional, they will adapt and change the playing field to their advantage if they can.
     
  13. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Dismount with the skill you need tactics, you need a weapon skill, you have to be on foot, your attack can miss, your attack can be parried.... for melee range is one tile, for archery 8, throwing is 8?

    Amount of skilled needed to pull this off 200+, chance of success against a similiarly skilled opponnet 30-40%.

    Now compare to a Bola in the current system: weapon skill 0, tactics 0, can't miss, can't be parried. Range one screen. Chance of success 100%.

    Agreed, everyone should have some ability to dismount an opponent. The reasoning for the change is put the Bola (which still requires no skill to use) in line with other dismounting methods.

    As far as my pvp tactics I am not sure what Kiting is and you would have to ask my opponents if its something I do.

    An apple is much prefered method. Using a spell requires A) dedicated points into a skill B) the use mana C) The chance of the spell being disrupted D) The chance to fail removing the curse E) The inability to moving while casting the spell.

    However the apple requires A) no skill to use B) no mana C) can not be disrupted D) never fails to remove a curse E) Can be used while moving.

    In an indirect manner, Apples also take away from Resist Spells skill which was the primary means of reducing the effectiveness of curses.

    It is okay that we disagree, I am not one of those people that thinks my way is the only right way and you are wrong. I think we are coming from different schools of thought concerning PvP. I am of the Philosophy that skill should be more important then items and from your posts it seems you value the power of items over a character's skill.

    -Lore
     
  14. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    In a PvP system kiting means that keeping people at a distance so that you dont take damage, especialy effective if your main offensive attacks are ranged and your oponent needs to get close to do damage, such as an opponent whoes main attacks are melee.
     
  15. Lord Strahd

    Lord Strahd Guest

    Without picking through all your points, you left out a pretty good boon to those skills compared to the consumables.

    Skills can be spammed, and the consumables are on timers, or at the least should be.

    If you were wanting to make a a change to the consumables I think you should start there, up the timer that it takes to reuse the consumable. Consumables should never be able to be spammed over and over like skills.

    EDIT: after reading through your post, I see a difference in terms and how we are using them. I am using the term skill as in reference to using primary and secondary weapon activations or spells. However I think you are using the term skill as in your skills list, wich is similar but there is some important differences.

    So I want to go ahead and clarify even further, so you understand what I feel is more important ect.

    ACTIVE SKILLS - Primary and secondary weapon moves or spells from spell books.

    These should have quick recast timers, its one of their primary advantages over consumables. Consumables can technically be as powerful or even more powerful, the trade off is that they cant be used often, and the more powerful the consumable the larger the timer that should be involved.

    By this line of thinking you could go ahead and say that bolas a good alternative to using an activation, however, the fact that its on a timer alone gives a person with dismount activation more functionality. For instance a bola will knock one guy off a horse, where as the weapon skill dismount could be spammed if he tryed to remount, and could technicaly knock off other potential opponents during the cool down timer of the bolas.

    The same goes for removal of the curse, a paladin could spam the activation spell on his friends over and over and keep his whole unit curse free. While and apple is only going to help any only one person one time for the duration that it has the cool down.
     
  16. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Then is sounds like we are pretty much in agreement

    Pretty sure this wouldn't apply to me :)

    -Lore
     
  17. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    It is amusing when people tell you "no" but then explain why they say no and it sounds exactly like what you are proposing.....
     
  18. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Im in total agreement, skill (as in skill list) should be more important.

    And as lore said, any consumable that is more powerful than the skill its suplimenting, is overpowered.

    Trap Boxes - Should supliment the resisting spells skill for the cases of evil omen para at present they make the skill unnessassary, therefore, return to the single use traps.

    Apples - Should supliment Chivalry skill, at present i think these are working ok ish, maybe it should work like purge magic? Randomly removing a de buff.

    Potions - Well, they completely negate poison. Should be used as a supliment to magery / chivalry / mystic / healing. Timers are in my opinion needed I dont think an "immunity" to poison should be added, i do think that poisoning should determine the ability to poison AND intensity. Say 50% base chance 5% for every 20skill points and a 15% boost for GM (so effectively its 100% at GM and 70% at 80)

    Bolas - Well i think Lore has covered that properly

    Petals / grapes - No issues.

    As far as i know thats all i can think of
     
  19. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    That would be a drastic change from the 100% chance to hit they are now. Other restrictions would have to be removed otherwise bolas would become next to worthless. You already have to be on foot, disarmed, wait ~2 seconds for it to land, and can't remount after using it. They would likely have to be instant use, no delay on throwing anymore.
     
  20. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    Bolas don't bother me as much as others. I think they have real downsides.

    Potions and Apples are stupid now. Entire templates are built around them that are able to combine insane offensive/defense skills. The Bushido/Necro is a growing trend brought to you by apple, potion and confidence spam. Fights become all about running at the first hint of trouble, relying 100% on consumables and fleeing to reload the second the consumables run dry. I agree that they should enhance, not define.

    Also I get sick of seeing templates without resist. I still love the skill and wouldn't think of running a character without it, but for purposes of pure l337 pvp, a lot go without thanks to the boxes, pots and apples. My attitude is, ok fine - you don't want resist and want some l337 dmg template instead? Great - now enjoy getting wtfpwnd by anybody who can cast a debuff.
     
  21. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I can concede 45% up to 65% as the base chance of success with no related skills.

    Any higher just seems to be unbalanced and would cater to players who want an easy way to avoid putting any skill into tactics and a weapon yet have a better means to dismount.

    Good points JC. I would keep the "You begin to swing a bola" prep time the same but once the target cursor is up, the bola would have a base weapon speed of 2.50 (speed of a katana) with a max swing rate of 1.25 just like a weapon [every 30 stamina reduces rate by a tick(.25)]. This would make running out of range very difficult. Your idea of no delay, instant hit would make the bola as fast as a harm spell, bola spam is not a great idea.

    As far as being disarmed, wrestling still applies while using a bola, as does passive defending which is something like [(eval + anat)/2 +20] - keep those and add throwing skill in when using a bola. Then your defense against an attack would be the best of the three.

    Currently when you throw your shield drops but can be rearmed, simply allow the thrower to keep the shield equipted the entire time. However, if someone was using a shield and a bola they would not be able to chug pots unless the bola was thrown or they disarmed the shield.

    The Bola has the same foot restriction as other dismount methods. You can remount immediately upon missing and if you are successful you share the dismount timer with your enemy.

    -Lore
     
  22. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I forgot to include the timer before reusing a bola. You can't spam them. I think it is 10 seconds.
     
  23. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Items used to inflict self damage to avoid Parlyasis:

    Magically Trapped Containers:

    Proposed Change to Magical Trap: A magical trap is a one time use spell cast upon any openable container. Opening the container causes an exposion of direct magical damage to the opener. The magical damage can be reduced by the skill resisting spells.

    Magic Resist________Damage of Magical Trap
    0-40________________35
    41-50_______________32
    51-60_______________30
    61-70_______________28
    71-80_______________25
    81-90_______________20
    91-100______________18
    101-110_____________14
    111-120_____________10

    Mechanically Trapped Boxes

    Proposed Change to Trap Boxes: A trap on a box takes 10 seconds to reset. The time needed to reset a trap can be reduced by the Tinkering skill.

    Tinkering Skill_______Trap Reset Timer
    0-10_______________10 seconds
    10-20_______________9 seconds
    21-30_______________8 seconds
    31-40_______________7 seconds
    41-50_______________6 seconds
    51-60_______________5 seconds
    61-70_______________4 seconds
    71-80_______________3 seconds
    81-90_______________2 seconds
    91-100______________No Delay
    **A trap can be reset a second faster for every 10 skill points in Tinkering.


    Lore
     
  24. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Hmm, not sure about this one. Just like not sure about the apple one.

    Basically it is just, a pvp template with tinkering? Maybe have the trapped boxes be mainly for combating evil omen? Basically if you have 120 resist, you already dont get paralyzed, but if you get evil omen paralyzed you do, so say having resist would benefit using the boxes? I dunno, boxes seem a little more difficult to work with, than the every day pvp items. Since other skills are semi-viable in a pvp situation.
     
  25. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Awesome idea, I fixed the chart to include magic resist... and kept Tinkering in as well. Tinkering because its related to trap making and Resist because its the skill people using the boxes are really compensating for.... I ended apply resist to the magical pouch means of breaking a hold and tinkering to the mechanical means.

    Looking at the apples I think a 30 second timer is fair, having resistence is its own reward as are the other skills that can midigate the effects of a curse and the skill to make an Enchanted Apples is cooking so it makes sense that someone with that skill would benefit most from thier use. Letting cooks eat applies faster would in no way unbalance pvp and it gives pvp cooks a bone :)

    -Lore
     
  26. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Glad to be of assistance here. I would like to see everything continue to stay pvp oriented as it is now, a crafting pvp character just did not sound right to me. ^^
     
  27. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Rather thank make it as complicated as all that, why not just simply say trap boxes damage isn't related to tinkering.

    The chance of the trap going of is (so at low % success the %chance of the trap going of is less). The damage remains the same as at GM.

    Instead, trapped pouches are allowed (remember those 1time shots?)

    The only problem i see with all of this?

    Well it once again comes down to cure pots.

    Instead of using a trap box, people will simply drink a lesser poison (1damage very fast), once the para is broken, drink a cure.
     
  28. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Maybe we should just make it more like hiding? You are paralyzed until you take x damage? cant be such a small amount that you would want to go this route, but can't be so much that someone could half line you before you could do anything.
     
  29. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I always carried 10 (even with GM resist)with my macro's linked to my key pad... I am glad those days are over now hehe

    Though you bring up a good point, the issue with magically trapped pouches is that they do to much damage in this modern age of UO, however it makes sense for resist spells skill to work in conjunction with magically trapped pouch to reduce the damage rather then working with a mechanically trapped box to reduce the timer for the trap to reset.

    Linking Tinkering and Resist to the mechanical means is prob the easier way to do it, using Tinkering to reduce the timer of the mechanical means and Resist Spells to reduce the damaging effects of the magical means is prob the right way to do it.

    I come from a role-players perspective and now that you have shown me the link that makes sense in the context of the UO reality, its hard for me not to move in that direction, even though I know that will not be as popular.

    Then again this isn't about making it easy for players to use items to avoid effects, its about balancing those effects in the context of the skills they are getting around.

    I can live with that, at least they have to have a free hand and are using two valuable potions to escape one effect.

    I am working on a potions reform as well HERE and am not completely happy with it. So far no one has offered any suggestions or feedback which I will hope will fill in the gaps.

    Theoretically: I view potions as a supplement like other consumables, I see many in PvP rely on them as a consistent means of healing/curing/stam which if you invest skill in Alchemy I can accept. Without invested skill points in Alchemy, potions should be a supliment rather then a primary source.

    Though my current potion reform is incomplete, It does address your concern of stacking a poison and a cure pot by adding a timer between potions based on Dex and Alchemy. High Dex allows someone to drink more quickily and higher alchemy skill reduces the time between potion use, enhances the effects and allows an Alchemist to take full advantage of the enhance potions (whereas a non alchemist can not).

    -Lore
     
  30. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Lore, you keep forgetting to actually put a link in your "here" remarks...that is like the second time you did that :p
     
  31. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    First off, Lore, i understand you play a dexer mainly, but cmon now.


    Bola's are the only dismount function available to any non dexer (mages). I understand wanting to somehow tie it into a skill, but i do not believe it is necessary. Most of the people that complain about dismounts/bolas are jsut people who want to be able to run away to save their life time and time again.


    On pots:

    I would not mind in te slightest bit seeing pots more tied in with alchemy. On that note, i do not like your "timer" being based off of dexterity. Again, i understand that you play a dexer, but not only dexers use potions.

    Thanks..
     
  32. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Am I the only one that thinks consumables are good where they are?

    The only thing I would consider changing is making lethal poison more difficult to cure when using a cure pot.

    I really think everything else is pretty balanced (from consumables, don't get me started on Mysticism).
     
  33. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    id like to see trap crates no longer auto rearm after use. Make them usable once. More templates will have resist thus taking down the number of templates that have the massive amounts of damage.
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That'd be nice, like the old trapped pouches
     
  35. Pwny

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    Anyone who thinks bolas are overpowered are ********... you get a message saying they are swinging it, all you have to do is hop off your mount for a sec then hop right back on it to mess them up...now they are disarmed and on foot. If you dont ride a war horse, swamp dragon, or lesser hiryru, or whatever real pet you can then you probably have no clue how to properly pvp anyway so you shouldnt be talking here.
     
  36. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I am not to familiar with pvp so I probable wouldn't be ready to poison your mount if you jumped off, I prob wouldn't use a conflag in combination with fast attacks and spells to keep you disrupted, I prob wouldn't have remounted by this time myself since you dismounted yourself.... and I probably stand around with a bola up when I am alone.

    -Lore
     
  37. Pwny

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    Your right because you cant set a UOA macro that cure and insta remounts your horse. If your good you will remount without problems...if your riding a ethy well...your just dumb anyway.
     
  38. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    Omen para unfortunately makes trapped boxes a must have item. I would love to see resist play a bigger swing role though - without it, you get destroyed by mages. With it, you don't need to pack around a trapped box. Way too many templates eschew resist now.

    And to Lynk, I don't hate consumables aside from some minor tweaking - Apples on a timer, etc. What I don't like is fighting people that completely rely on them, and then split for more after you finally run them dry in a 20 minute fight. It just gets ridiculous. Implementing some more restrictions would likely force people into a position where they wanted a skill to work alongside pots, rather than just chugging at the first hint of damage. I don't have an issue if people wanted to get alchemy since thats a major investment. But 50 EP isn't too hard to get, especially on straight forward archery templates.

    Though EVEN for mages pots could still be fairly restricted - Mysticism has given them a powerful new punch. With DCI, it is much more feasible to out damage a dexxer with the right luck on swings.

    And yeah, Bolas don't bother me in the least. If I see somebody swinging it and decide to stay on screen, getting hit is more or less my own fault. You can hop off mount easily - but it does get some people who are distracted with the larger fight. It also lets you set up ambushes that are effective but reasonable - as opposed to the extreme awfulness of the heavy x bow from stealth.
     
  39. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    i dont think youd see that.

    i have 120 resist on a lot of toons and i still get spells coming through from imps.
     
  40. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    I dont think you understand my point.
     
  41. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    Bolas are fine.

    *Small delay before throwing the bola
    *Line of Sight required
    *Using a bola will disarm you
    *Short delay until you can re-mount after throwing IF a throw fails.
    *Short delay until you are able to re-use a bola
    *Doesn't do any noticable damage (1 dmg)

    Bolas are easy to counter anyways.. Dismount/mount, run out of LoS or cast invis/use an invis item.
     
  42. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I have never prepped a bola visible, nor have I prepped one on the same screen as an intended target. Only time this happens is in quite the large group battle, does EVERYONE simply dismount? if they do....hold till they remount thinking it was thrown or have to try and get away, if they don't pick the ones who don't dismount and there you go, fodder for the taking. Also if I am using a bola, being disarmed means nothing as I would be using a char with wrestling, or some other form of non-weapon based defense.

    Not that your points are not valid, but the basic point of the entire thread is to balance all consumables to be more in line or needing a skill to be 100% effective.
     
  43. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

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    I really have to agree and say that bolas are far from overpowered. All you need to do is break line of sight or jump off your mount.

    In fact I don't think any consumable is really overpowered presently.
     
  44. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

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    I don't think any are over powered, but i wouldn't mind seeing pots be tied a little harder to alchemy, trapped boxes be tied to something as to have to have some resist, etc. Not saying it OMG HAZ TO BE! but you know... i like new things lol
     
  45. ReaperNI

    ReaperNI Guest

    didnt read every ones post but i do like the idea of bolas failing and maybe limiting the range.TYR