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If tactics is required for specials should magery be required for...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Sam the Scribe, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    If tactics is required for specials should magery be required for using any spell effects on a weapon?

    The way is it now, anyone with enough gold can get a weapon with lightning/fireball and other magical spells and it doesn't require any additional skill to get the benefit of extra damage.

    Shouldn't the extra damage dealt by the weapons be decided by the level of magery/eval. No magery=no fireball.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  2. Winder UO

    Winder UO Guest

    rather scale the hit spell damage on eval.
     
  3. an interesting concept, im sure all the non mage/eval ppl would beg to differ though
     
  4. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    an interesting concept, im sure all the non mage/eval ppl would beg to differ though

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ...possibly... but the same situation for poisoning, right? Unless you're a Ninja you need poisoning to use an infected weapon...
     
  5. Some great minds have came out of minoc, I like your idea.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sounds good to me.. [​IMG]
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If tactics is required for specials should magery be required for using any spell effects on a weapon?

    The way is it now, anyone with enough gold can get a weapon with lightning/fireball and other magical spells and it doesn't require any additional skill to get the benefit of extra damage.

    Shouldn't the extra damage dealt by the weapons be decided by the level of magery/eval. No magery=no fireball.

    Safe Travels, Sam

    [/ QUOTE ]No, because its a weapon - duh! Its for the use of a warrior - why ever should a mage be able to use it better?

    Its bad enough that mages can get free 100 weapons skill with a 0 mage weapon without talking nonsense like this.
     
  8. RedEmbers

    RedEmbers Guest

    The way I read it he's saying that if you have a weapon that gives a magic bonus you should at least have some magery on your template to get it at all.Not that if you have magery you would get even more bonus.Maybe i'm wrong,thats what im gathering from it though.
     
  9. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    No, because its a weapon - duh! Its for the use of a warrior - why ever should a mage be able to use it better?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, why should a warrior be able to effectively cast spells with no magery skill?

    There are two systems that determine the ability to use the extra damage capabilities of weapons.

    Skill based: A warrior who wishes to inflict a mortal strike must have sufficient combat experience to use the move.

    Charge based: Poisoned weapons are an example of this. Once you've used up all the poison charges the weapon must be recharged by someone with sufficient skill appropriate to the level of poison.

    So, if you dont think that you should have to have magery to use the spell attack on your weapon... would you agree that it should only have a certain number of spell charges?

    The way it is now... it's a freebie that gives the advantage to whoever has the most gold in the bank.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  10. Wolfthistle

    Wolfthistle Guest

    Hail Sam,

    I like the idea above to scale damage according to eval.

    I also like your idea of limiting the number of charges on the weapon. Unless my memory is severely failing me, I believe thats the way it used to be with spells on weapons / items.

    Sincerely,

    Wolfthistle
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Well, why should a warrior be able to effectively cast spells with no magery skill?

    [/ QUOTE ] For the same reason there are mage weapons that give mages free weapon skills and mages get the properties from SC shields, weapons and even quivers without warrior skills.

    Go find another way to compete against dexxers than coming here crying for nerfs.
     
  12. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    I would gladly let that eval effect the hit spell effects, if any mage who had a weapon in there hand got a -45 to defense and took double damage for having a weapon armed with no skill for which that weapon requires.

    Also they boost the damage all weapons do too.
     
  13. fred252

    fred252 Guest

    [quoteWell, why should a warrior be able to effectively cast spells with no magery skill?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is a magical weapon. No magery skill is required to use it.

    Now that this is settled is there anything else we can shoot down for you?
     
  14. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...mages get the properties from SC shields, weapons and even quivers without warrior skills.

    Go find another way to compete against dexxers than coming here crying for nerfs.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Couple things... first of all a shield isn't an offensive weapon. Second, it seems that you're assuming that I'm playing a PvP mage against dexers.

    Are you going to be part of the discussion or just make attacks based on your assumptions?

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There used to be a template of Macers, that did have GM Eval. The Cleric Template. They mainly fought with Wands and used the GM Eval to boost the damage the wands would do when used. That was back before they added the casting timer and cooldown timer on Wands though.
    I've proposed before that they add a new Artifact in, a Wand, that has about 500-1000 charges, and spawns with one spell out of a list of potential spells. Like when dropped as an arty one could have Magic Arrow on it, another could have Lightning, and maybe even add a very rare chance for one to spawn with Poison spell (Seeing as how Macer's don't have an innate weapon that can do Infectious Strike). Also have some mods like SC (No Neg)/FC 1/SSI/Dam Inc to it. I was originally thinking of them being able to recharge 1 charge every 5 mins, but decided against it. If they only have a limited amount of charges on them, there would be a constant demand for them in the market.

    I still have some old weps of Ghoul's Touch (Paralyze) sitting around in some of my houses. Plus also still have weapons of Weakness/Clumsy/Feeblemind, and some old Wands of Mana Drain. Can't even begin to count the number of ID Wands and ID Gnarled Staffs i still have.
     
  16. fred252

    fred252 Guest

    A sheild most definately is an offensive weapon.
     
  17. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...It is a magical weapon. No magery skill is required to use it.

    Now that this is settled is there anything else we can shoot down for you?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, I guess I'm challenging that convention. If it's a magical weapon... where does the magic come from? A blacksmith? The boyer? Someone with no knowledge of magery is just able to apply an unlimited supply of magical power to a weapon?
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The Runic Tool. Just for the sake of Lore, imagine a Mage and a Craftsman working in concert over several nights, the Mage inlaying several enchantments into the Runic Tool as the Craftsman forges it, granting the tool the ability to imbue magical powers into whatever it crafts. There are several examples of this in Fantasy literature/games, and innumerable examples of warriors with no magical knowledge using magical weapons.

    Plus, not sure about other Craftsmen, but mine does have Magery. He has 120.0 Smith/120.0 Tailoring/GM Fletching/GM Carpentry/GM Tinkering/GM Armslore/80.0 Magery. His Jewelry boost him to GM Magery. He used to have GM Mining on him, but i soulstoned that off and GM Armslore back on when they announced Armslore would be useful again. I kept his GM Armslore on him even after AoS until they gave out Soulstone Fragments one Holiday, then put it on a Soulstone and trained up Fletching.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    no magery should be required.

    for heavens sake man, our characters live in a world contained within a fragment of the gem of immortality. The entire world is infused with magic, hence magical weapons.

    What are you going to ask for next? That recall scrolls will only work again if you have magery in your template?

    Its a game, magic weapons give some balance to non-magic using warriors. I can assure you that you will never see my warrior being able to paralyze your mage or set you on fire, or any other mage/necro/spellweaving spell.

    But you might see a fireball or lightning, if I can run across the screen without you hitting me with spells. And if I can hit you with my magical weapon, then I only have to worry about being disarmed, evasion, a mind blast or three. I do not think it too much to allow magical weapons.
     
  20. Sure! [​IMG]
    As long as we're addressing WEAPONS ...needing a little nerfing through skill requirements ...
    Make WEAPONS require (to recieve the full benefit of: hit "spells")
    A level of magery ...
    AND reagents to be carried (outside of LRC bene's present on ARMOR)
    AND can "buff" the skill effect/level only through the presence of blank scrolls (no scrolls... no "higher" level spells possible)

    For BOTH mages and meleer's
    same ... requirements
    (jewelry need not, may, but need not apply)

    Sure!
    G'head ...
    [​IMG]
     
  21. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    The Runic Tool. Just for the sake of Lore, imagine a Mage and a Craftsman working in concert over several nights, the Mage inlaying several enchantments into the Runic Tool as the Craftsman forges it, granting the tool the ability to imbue magical powers into whatever it crafts. There are several examples of this in Fantasy literature/games, and innumerable examples of warriors with no magical knowledge using magical weapons.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can't argue with anything you said. Completely true.

    I'm basically suggesting that there should be more player involvement in this process. Not just some "magic tool" but something more... Is having to recharge a magical weapon too radical an idea? Would it be such a hardship for a warrior to return to the smith that forged his sword to have more charges placed on the weapon? In the Fantasy/Literature... doesn't the wielder of such powerful weapons usually have some special abilities on their own? They often undertake a rite of passage before they are able to wield such powerful weapons.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  22. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    What are you going to ask for next? That recall scrolls will only work again if you have magery in your template?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually a long time ago I suggested that only mages should be able to perform recall and gates. That those without magery skill would have to rely on the services of mages to be transported... perhaps even for a fee. Want to go to Destard... well you can run ..or pony up 500gp at the bank for a mage to open a gate. You have to give Cyloth a golden skull to get into the Gauntlet... nobody rides for free!

    But... that is an entirely different topic. [​IMG] We could try and dig up that old thread though if you're interested in reviving that suggestion?

    Oh... and you are right... our lands are infused with magic... but it's the mages and necromancers who have studied these forces and can manipulate them.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Nope not really,

    I was here in world when you needed magery to use recall scrolls. The change just freed up more skill points on my warrior.

    Magic weapons as the are now, are not imbalanced, any warrior has to get across the screen to hit your mage.

    A warrior has his weapons/armor, a mage has his spells it an equal trade off just as it is.
     
  24. RedEmbers

    RedEmbers Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    What are you going to ask for next? That recall scrolls will only work again if you have magery in your template?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually a long time ago I suggested that only mages should be able to perform recall and gates. That those without magery skill would have to rely on the services of mages to be transported... perhaps even for a fee. Want to go to Destard... well you can run ..or pony up 500gp at the bank for a mage to open a gate. You have to give Cyloth a golden skull to get into the Gauntlet... nobody rides for free!

    But... that is an entirely different topic. [​IMG] We could try and dig up that old thread though if you're interested in reviving that suggestion?

    Oh... and you are right... our lands are infused with magic... but it's the mages and necromancers who have studied these forces and can manipulate them.

    Safe Travels, Sam

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This I totally agree with.If you want to recall you should have a set number in magery or higher,same with gate or if you have a paladin then sacred journey.
    travel in this game is way to easy compared to most if not all mmo's out there.
    Most let you recall/hearth 1 time every hr.Here you can do unlimited in an hr if you have the scrolls,way to easy.

    This also has made it way to easy to gather resources and thus why they're looking at ways to slow it down and create gold sinks,this is why we're seeing the changes to Bos and the random spawns now.High end resources have been to easy to get for awhile.

    Anyway,back on topic [​IMG]
     
  25. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...Magic weapons as the are now, are not imbalanced, any warrior has to get across the screen to hit your mage....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Fair enough. I just wonder why everyone seems to think that I've taken the mages point of view on this... You may have to run across the screen to hit my mage but my Ninja Archer is gonna be blasting you the whole way across... My suggestion isn't just about melee warrior vs. mage scenarios.

    But... I'm not trying to argue you out of your opinion. No means NO... got it. [​IMG]
     
  26. i agree with warsong...why fix something not broken. as i see it...anything in this game is attainable, even by the most casual of players.

    BODs are free...and are easy as heck to attain. with that in mind equipment should not be the source of complaints anymore.

    dont do BODs? there is also...peerless loot, quest loot, bag loot, and doom.

    dont do that? there is IDOCs, guildmates, vendors, or bank spammers.
     
  27. <blockquote><hr>

    A sheild most definately is an offensive weapon.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    maybe IRL, but not in this game so your comment is moot

    if hit spells damage on weapons is scaled based upon magery/eval then it would only be fair to not allow mages to use quivers/shields(i primarily play a mage)
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    no, no, no, no, no.

    not everything in this game needs to be changed. why not address the things that are actually a problem.
     
  29. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...why not address the things that are actually a problem.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well I definetly agree with you there. Not advocating it as some kinda priority. But everyone else gets to toss their ideas around here... cant a lowly Scribe offer his thoughts?

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  30. Possibly. Or the spells should consume mana.

    Weapons do not cast spells, people do.
     
  31. Ya, this was suggested at the beginning of AoS many times over. It would have been an excellent idea at the time, because it would have greatly curbed some of the PvP overbalances that existed at the time. I think that now too much other stuff would have to be changed to accomodate a change like that, and while it would be an excellent idea to institute some sort of idea like that whenever (heh) they do another pvp update, it should only be in addition to a whole slew of other pvp changing goodness.
     
  32. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If tactics is required for specials should magery be required for using any spell effects on a weapon?

    The way is it now, anyone with enough gold can get a weapon with lightning/fireball and other magical spells and it doesn't require any additional skill to get the benefit of extra damage.

    Shouldn't the extra damage dealt by the weapons be decided by the level of magery/eval. No magery=no fireball.

    Safe Travels, Sam

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sure sure , and then we drop all mage weapon properties , because if you dont have the skill you cant wield the weapon , after all its not magical weapons... or is it ????? Cant use a spell book with mods if you dont have inscription , sounds fair to me ..... cant drink potions if you dont have alchy .... I think I'll stop now , and so should you imho ...........
     
  33. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Sure sure , and then we drop all mage weapon properties , because if you dont have the skill you cant wield the weapon , after all its not magical weapons... or is it ????? Cant use a spell book with mods if you dont have inscription , sounds fair to me ..... cant drink potions if you dont have alchy .... I think I'll stop now , and so should you imho ...........

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, your rebuttal seemed reasonable till you got to alchemy for drinking potions.

    Having a sword that has an unlimited supply of fireball spells is like a potion bottle that never empties. I'm not saying to eliminate the spells, just that they should have some limits.

    And a couple of folks have tried to turn this into a tit-for-tat over mage weapons. I dont even use them. Don't see how it applies anyway.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  34. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    Its just as silly as what you propose , thats what it has to do with it , its not a warior trying to cast a spell whilst wielding a sword , its a magical property that fires upon impact , because the weapon has been imbued with that special abillity .

    could have the crafters magery level play a part maybe , but then high magery should also give more control over what abillities the weapon would get imho... I'm all for more control of our crafting properties , not so much for silly item requirements .....
     
  35. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ... could have the crafters magery level play a part maybe , but then high magery should also give more control over what abillities the weapon would get imho... I'm all for more control of our crafting properties , not so much for silly item requirements .....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If I'm reading your posts correctly...

    You're against a skill requirement for the weapons user. But you support some additional skill for the crafter. Perhaps even allowing the crafter to decide which spell goes on a specific weapon? So a smith with enough magery to cast 3rd level spells, who had the proper scroll as a raw material in his backpack... could then make an attempt at crafting a sword with the fireball spell? Maybe the success chance to place the spell on the weapon would be based on magery level?

    If you're with me that far... then why would that weapon have unlimited use? I'm suggesting that like poison... the spell needs to be replenished. So, if you're opposed to needing magery to use the fireball on your sword, do you support a limit on charges for the weapons? When your weapon is out of charges, take it back to a smith to add the spell again.

    And... just let me toss this in... if the crafter is given more control over spells, etc... should they also have eval to determine how much damage the spell does when activated? A smith with 120 magery/eval could make some killer weps. [​IMG]

    Right now I just see these weapons as a freebie... the user gets to add spell damage to their attack, with no manna cost, no additional skill and unlimited use.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  36. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    charges would be ok IF , it ment more control over properties , the ingredients where not stupid difficult to get ( no mining 100+ hours to get one freaking gem ) and if it was a decent amount of charges , now would these abillities fire every time or at a percent given amount of times like now ????? poison fires every time because its " charges " ....

    What about current weapons , would they be given a choice of a free mod since one is been taken away from them ??? I dont want my current weapons ending up being less usefull or valuable because of this tbh....

    Implementing a thing like this would not be as easy as it might look....
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This has to be a mages pvp complaint despite the posts to the contrary. Hit spell effect is a joke vs any monster above rabble level, yes I must need magery/eval to do that 9 extra damage with a hit fireball on Melisande every third hit or so...... The only time hit spell is truly useful is against other players, people looking for pvm weapons usually want mana leech, stamina leech, and maybe life leech/Hit Lower defense/hit lower attack. I don't pvp unless forced to, or goofing off with guildies and guess what mods I "dont" look for on my weapons?

    Rey~
     
  38. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    This has to be a mages pvp complaint despite the posts to the contrary.....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You got me! I'm actually The Dread Sam the Scribe, notorious PvP scribe! Watch out for my poisoned quill! Buwhahahahwhhaaa! Stand back or I shall scribble on thee!!!

    Actually... if you read my posts... and my replies to others who have posted constructive replies (pro or con) you will see that it's pretty straightforward. No hidden agenda.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  39. It also gives warriors a chance to do elemental damage. Not every warrior is pally with consecrate. Mages can cast blades, EQ, earth elly for physical damage, warriors need to be able to inflict elemental damage.

    Doesn't seem to be broken at the moment.

    OZ
     
  40. I dissagree with this Idea Completely.

    The Weapons are "Enchanted" with a Spell, they are equal to all users.

    If you Made Magery a Requirement for getting the benifit from a "Hit Spell" It would only add to Mage's Power and make Warriors weaker.

    All we would see once again is "mages online", Mage,Eval,Weapon,Tactics,Med,Resist Templets...
     
  41. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    The only thing I would change is make hit spell have limited number of charges. The weapon then would have to be recharged with scrolls.
     
  42. The weapon is casting the spell; not the player.

    No, hit spells shouldn't require magery.
     
  43. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If tactics is required for specials should magery be required for using any spell effects on a weapon?

    The way is it now, anyone with enough gold can get a weapon with lightning/fireball and other magical spells and it doesn't require any additional skill to get the benefit of extra damage.

    Shouldn't the extra damage dealt by the weapons be decided by the level of magery/eval. No magery=no fireball.

    Safe Travels, Sam

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, then one might ask: Shouldn´t magic spells require regs?
    That would mean no more 100% LRC suits...
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Having a sword that has an unlimited supply of fireball spells is like a potion bottle that never empties."

    Have seen examples of Bottles/Flasks that never empty in books, however they usually contain some type of alchohol like Brandy, Wine, Mead, etc. If i remember right, there's a Goblet of Celebration in UO that does refill itself every 24 Hours. Wish i had one of them IRL with Jagelmeister...
     
  45. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Well, then one might ask: Shouldn´t magic spells require regs?
    That would mean no more 100% LRC suits...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, one might ask what that has to do with the topic?

    Folks seem really hung up on mages.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  46. In the current weapon balance and skill point cap, you wouldn't want to make this change.

    It would effectively be a nerf to weapons with a certain characteristic (hitspell). You can think to yourself that, theoretically, a fireball coming out of a wep should require eval/magery, but unless hitspell weapons are now judged as being overpowered and this is intended as a fix, the whole system would need to be balanced to account for such a change.

    This doesn't seem broken to me, so wouldn't need to fix it...
     
  47. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Well, one might ask what that has to do with the topic?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, with all due respect, I believe it has everything to do with the topic.

    You raised the question that just because special moves require tactics, hit spells on weapons should require magery.

    And so I asked, shouldn´t magic spells require reagents to cast then?

    Perhaps this was intended as a skill-related thread and my intentions were not to derail it but I was hoping to give some food for thoughts on this whole way of thinking.

    Cuz if we want everything to be "correct" then I think a lot of things will have to be changed. No more carrying 400 stones in your backpack... [​IMG]

    I say, leave the hitspells as they are. After all it´s a magical world we live in and some things are just that... magical.

    Hmm, hope U understand what I mean... [​IMG]
     
  48. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    I say, leave the hitspells as they are. After all it´s a magical world we live in and some things are just that... magical.

    Hmm, hope U understand what I mean... [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes I do. I misunderstood the purpose of your post earlier. I apologize.

    I suggested two possibilities, skill based or charge based. Getting a lot of interesting and creative replies.

    And you're right about LRC... when I first came back to the game and heard about LRC I was kinda scratching my head...wondering how that got put in. I do use it on a couple of my mages that I send to Doom but otherwise I'm still burnin regs. I guess as long as it's available I'll use it but I wouldn't be screaming too loud if they took it away either. Heck, unless you know a good tailor who will make you an LRC suit... the cost of putting one together will exceed the cost of regs for a loooooong time.

    In fact... just between us... I wonder how those spellweavers get away without needin any regs at all. But... that's a topic for another thread. [​IMG]

    Safe Travels, Sam