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Imbuing: Maybe it SHOULD be expensive, time consuming and hard

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Prince Caspian, Sep 21, 2009.

  1. Ok, I'm gonna get flamed unmercifully for this, but it won't be the first time.

    The old doublestandard of UOHall (well most message boards when you get down to it) is that when YOU are complaining about something, you are "voicing your opinion."

    When someone else voices an opinion you don't happen to like, it's "whining."

    It's all a matter of perspective, naturally.

    But I'm sorry, I have seem TONS of WHINING about Imbuing over the past week. Whining as in "oh its hard. Oh it's taking forever. Oh it's expensive."

    Here's a novel concept: perhaps you ***SHOULDN'T*** be able to master it within 48 hours. Because if you can, that means the skill is too easy. Back in the day it took weeks if not MONTHS to build to GM level in some skills.

    And you know what?

    GMing those skills actually MEANT something. You know why? Because everyone and their damn brother didn't have one.

    If this hot-new-fresh crafting skill can be mastered in a week, then it means nothing. It's not a journey at all, it's instant gratification, and it ultimately will be a hollow goal when everyone on the shard has a 120 Imbuer before even a month has elapsed.

    Please. Knock off the pancakes and moaning that you can't gain past 100, and its bankrupting you. Because I think it should have taken you a hell of a lot longer to even get to 100, not just a mere 10-14 days since the skill came off the conveyor belt.

    My opinion. Or whine, if you prefer.
     
  2. Zym Dragon

    Zym Dragon Seasoned Veteran
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  3. MorganaLeFey

    MorganaLeFey Guest

    Nah, no whining. I agree with ya.
     
  4. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    I am in agreement, and you should know, that was a point continually made by the members in Focus Testing and Closed Beta to the Devs. We wanted it hard, time consuming, and expensive, but 100% obtainable as a crafter. No PvE or PvP required.

    Miss Echo even had the idea that you shouldn't be able to imbue items outside of what you had a skill in. For example, if you are not a blacksmith, you can't imbue weapons made by blacksmiths. Or Jewelry for Tinkering, leather armor for Tailoring, Bowcraft/Fletching for bows, etc.

    This was way back in, what, May, when Imbuing was first introduced to the focus group? At least they took away the Peerless requirements they originally had.

    Although, I will say even as it stands today, as a causal player who only has a few hours a week with less than one million, and as someone who harvests every single resource myself, it's not THAT easy for someone with limited time and means.

    I have a mule with LGM Blacksmithing, GM Tailoring/Arms Lore/ Mining. And recently I just finished GM'ing Lumberjacking, Tinkering and Carpentry, which have sat in the high 80's for almost a decade.. I finished Lumberjacking a few weeks before SA went live, so I harvested. Then I did the Tinkering and Carpentry because the idea of doing Imbuing is a bit intimidating.. I'm thinking I'll finish GM'ing Spellweaving and Necromancy before I even start Imbuing at 50.. and I don't PvE but once in a blue moon. Or maybe even Bowyer/Fletching and Fishing.....
     
  5. Initially I was kinda mifffed that the skill gains got severely nerfed before I even had a chance to start training the skill. Now that I am working hard at it, this sort of reminds me of blacksmith gains back in 2000... it took effort to gather the resources and lots of clicking to work the skill up. Back then, it took me several months to GM blacksmith skill. First, mine ingots, then use all the ingots making items. Rinse and repeat, a lot! Of course a year later they added smelting to the skill greatly cutting the need to mine. Now I can GM the blacksmith skill in less than a week.

    For magical residue, I kill liches and liche lords for half an hour, a few minutes making daggers, then imbue for half an hour. Just like the old the old-style skill training. I don't mind so much any more.
     
  6. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    I am at 120 Imbuing myself. I did it all by hand, I was never able to get a UO Assist macro to work for me. It took me about 2 weeks of 8-10 hours a day in farming ingredients and training the skill.

    I personally do NOT think that the skill is too difficult. Yes it was expensive, and yes it was time consuming. But I put in the work and now have what i want. Imbuing SHOULD NOT be made any easier. Now that being said, there are always going to be a few people who have the time and resources to take it to 120 in a few days. Most people it will take a few weeks. Some it will take months or even years. I think the level its set at now is more then reasonable.

    Ill tell you right now though... Speaking as a "Legendary Artificer". Imbuing is NOT all its cracked up to be. If you think its unfair how expensive and hard the skill is right now while you're training... THEN STOP NOW!!!! Don't waste another gold piece on this skill. I spent around 15 mil taking it to 120... and the spending does NOT stop there. In order to get decent mods you need some VERY hard to collect ingredients. Even at 120, and using the Queens Soulforge, you will go through so many lost ingredients it will make you want to vomit.
     
  7. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I agree there should have been some sort of tie to other crafting skills to imbue to items crafted by those skills. But in a way raising the skill quickly is dependant (at least it was for me) on secondary skill.

    Though other skills are not directly required, I would have had a hell of a time training if I hadn't unraveled oak bows for residue. Those bows required GM fletching and a talisman for a small bump to 100% exceptional rate. Non ex bows would not unravel.

    From this.. imbuing will become sort of the next community collections. Oak scripting just got a large boost but that a topic for another thread.

    I would have had a rough go at it if I didnt have an army of BoD collecting mules... well basically 4 accounts with almost every char at .01 smithy for the low end BoDs filled and turned in by my legendary smith for high end BoDs... which were turned in for a lot of DC runics... used for making/unraveling daggers into more reside/essence.

    It would have been very hard w/o a legendary smith or at least a smith high enough to make ex daggers and gm arms lore for the damage bonus.

    It would have been hard if I didn't throw gold at the NPC for gems. I stopped counting but I'd say I threw 3-4 mil on the npc for rubies. I made it to 120 almost entirely on rubies. I could have used cheaper gems but on quick research I found rubies gave me three mods... life leech, fire resist and hit fire area (4 if you count hit fireball but that requires essence). Knowing I would need multiple mods at high skill for gains I stuck with rubies just I went to the Luna jeweler out of convienience. I could have searched other shops for a better deal but I did not.

    So for the op I didn't think the skill was hard. All you need is:

    60k oak
    5k iron ingots
    15k DC ingots
    100 DC runics
    50 shadow runics
    GM armslore
    GM fletching
    GM LJ (or high enough to chop oak)
    GM mining
    Fletching tali
    120 smithy
    3-4 mil to purchase gems
    2 soulstones

    With this you can powergame to Legendary imbuing in 3 days or less (I slept). If you were a new player or on an accounts w/o these skills and resources. It would be just as easy to build all of those skills and gather the resources as it would to farm all of the magic items to unravel into residue (about 20k).

    The hardest part of it was all the clicking. Now that I have the skill I should probably try and figure out what to do with it.

    I had the idea to outfit my army of mules in medable colored plate from the invasions. Then I started farming mats... 3 hours for 10 abyssal cloths(required to make armor medable). So maybe I'll shelve that plan for now.

    As far as fighting goes I pretty much have everything outfitted in non imbued gear as well as it needs to be to get the job done. I'll just enjoy some other area of the expansion for now.
     
  8. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Get over it,

    Look at other crafting skills?

    Tailoring takes what 8 hours(by hand, that is 4 days at two hours a day) if you pre-plan your consumables.

    Smithing did not take more than a week to train once I had all the ingots.

    Alchemy was a freaking joke(expensive)sure, took 4 hours by hand to gm.

    Inscription is the same thing, expensive but once you have the resources its easy to gm.


    48 hours to train imbuing well for me at 2 hours a day + time to collect the basic consumables(not everyone who plays is a money /item hoarder), will take me at least 30+ days or more.

    I consider myself to be a moderate player(time wise) and as the skill is now, it will take longer to max out than any of the other crafting skills.

    Leave it as it is.


    If people can sit for 8+ hours a day or more by hand working the skill and max it out more power to them. ( wow, what a money sink)
     
  9. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    imbuing was expensive, time consuming and hard.. alot harder then smithing, tailoring, carpentry and tinkering..

    yes tinkering did take alot of resources because you have to throw out all that you make. but still..

    leave it the way it is.. only problem im seeing is getting the special ingrediants..

    i tried to get some boura pelts to make some armor, 2 hours later i had 5 of them.. thats a pretty low rate of spawn :(

    the orbs were a little better.. i got 10 of them in that time..
     
  10. Minerva Foxglove

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    Good as it is! Plenty of ways to get the ingredients so not that boring even if it takes time. I started 3 days ago and I just reached 90. Only thing that worries me is my mouse finger:thumbsup:
     
  11. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    If the boura pelts are those little brown round things, you will get one per boura off the highland bouras. There's a nice spawn of the west then north of the royal city, across the road.
     
  12. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    And I agree with the OP, imbuing should be hard. You don't have to have any other kind of crafting in order to make any kind if craftable in the game with it.
     
  13. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    so each kind of boura is different spawn rate?
    i was killing the ones right out of town across that bridge.
     
  14. guum

    guum Guest

    The difficulty is fine, but it should be slightly unnerfed. I'm fine with it being hard, but the weighting system as is is wonky as hell.
     
  15. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Expensive, time consuming, and hard? Definitely.

    The only problem I have is that imbuing is more tedious than anything else... but I don't have a solution to that problem.
     
  16. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Each kind of boura can drop different stuff. Only the highland drop the pelts every time.
     
  17. Den2

    Den2 Adventurer
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    I got to 120 imbuing on Saturday sometime. It was time consuming, tedious, and well...tedious. That sound when you fail hurt my ears so I turned the iTunes on and went to town and stared relentlessly at the lower left counting to 10 successful imbues. Every one was clicked...don't like doing macros myself).

    With some foresight (they told us to start collecting) my friend and I started collecting all the crap monsters give and shoved it in a house. After going from almost no storage I have well over 900 lockdowns available now...that's a lot of residue. Enough to go to 120? No, but it gave a hell of start.
    All the gems the Crimson dragons dropped after they were defeated were kicked into a chest (and no, I didn't have a script that ran around and picked up every gem in 5 seconds after they all fell...every one was dragged and dropped)...and they were mostly only the gems I used: amber, citrine, and ruby (LRC, Luck, RPD, FireResist...yada yada yada)
    My friend would go kill stuff and explore the new lands and bring back all the crap they dropped. I'd give a new bag and he'd go on his way (also killed a lot of oni's and miasma). The gold was put towards extra gems if needed. The only real seed money needed was for the soulforge in the house. And when someone wasn't around to fill the bags, I logged in with another character and filled some bags, dropped them off, and logged back in with the artificer. It broke up the monotony of just imbuing for hours.

    I know a lot of people are loners and that's fine too, but getting in with the right people and helping one another to advance isn't out of the question.

    But, this is the fastest I've 120'd any skill hands down...I'm still trying to get spellweaving to 115 much less 120...and I've been working for a year or so...there's only so much wildfire in the middle of the woods you can do before you go crazy.

    The point of this...? I don't know anymore. So--yes, it was time consuming and tedious, and may be expensive for some, but I didn't get any rewards for getting to 120 before you did--I only imbued 1 thing after I got to 120. Haven't tried since.
     
  18. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    I played around with it in beta, then they made the resource changes which initially made me cringe. So I played around a bit more with it on test. And you know what?

    I dumped my plan to start at fifty with a new garg, so I still have a char slot I can use when I find what I really want to use it for. I've decided to dust off the old t hunter and do chests for gems, in addition to some of the new quests for ML resources, and I have warriors revisiting places I haven't been to in years right now farming up absolute CRAP for tier one resources. And, I'm having a blast.

    No I like this change, in fact, I think it is very clear that the point of SA was to get people exploring the world, old places and new, for lots of different kinds of resources on lots of different creatures. On that note I think it is an epic success for everyone, except maybe those who just wanted to continue playing the same old game the same old way.

    Quite appropriate that Dawn seems prepared to take the throne.
     
  19. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    imbuing is the fastest crafting skill I've ever GMed (I have a fairly low tolerance to grinding instead of playing for skill). I'm "only" at 107, but it's still coming along nicely.

    Unless you are feeling a desperate need to be one of the first on your shard to max it out, I'd recommend against grinding it. Just gather loot along the way in unraveling bags and then, before unraveling, go through each bag with your imbuer looking for cheap mods to add (1 residue, 1 low-cost gem that puts you between 40-60% difficulty, as close to 50% as possible).

    It'll take a while to get a handle on what are or aren't good mods to use and at first it will be slow (when starting out, you want lots of junk loot - if the loot is too good, you'll have trouble finding good starting pieces). Don't force it - if you can't imbue a piece cheaply, don't bother and move on to the next one. Once you go through a bag, unravel it all and you'll have your residue for the next bag. Hunting along the way will give you enough gold to buy the gems you need (you'll earn more gold than you spend on gems).

    Once you get up around GM, switch to having a character with low imbuing unravel the loot bags first (so all the low-end, residue-generating stuff that isn't efficient for gains any more gets unraveled leaving you just the higher-end items to puzzle through)

    Yes, it will take you longer, but if you're like me, you'll learn about the skill and you'll have some fun along the way.
     
  20. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    It is expensive yea, I dont mind, I do mind a bit however that the gains are so fast...Once you have the resources its easier to LG it then Smith or Tailoring.
     
  21. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Agreed with the OP.

    What many people are looking for can be found by going to Test Center and typing in "Set Imbuing 1200".

    As for the cost issue, the cost of imbuing can be completely "neutral" knowing how, where, and what to hunt.

    Just spent a run in Tomb of Kings, 40k gold + gems which ended up buying me 876 Amber, 101 items (only looted equipment items weighing 4 stones or less) to unravel which nets on average 170-180 Residue and 25-30 Essence plus museum quest items, venom vials, and other imbue ingredients.

    Such a "run" takes less than 30 minutes.

    If you cut the gem purchase in half and saved half the gold, you're looking at about 22,500 gold or so profit on top of it all per run (along with the free imbue resources).
     
  22. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Actually my view was that imbuing shouldn't 'replace' crafting skills as this is basically what is going to happen to all crafts in the longer term. Sure, when you are 'training' as someone above says it is handy to have that GM Fletcher or Smith to grind out the items you need to 'unravel' but that is the point I tried to make over and over in focus, that once you have your Imbuer trained how many will then bother with the bod system to 'maybe/possibly/never' get that uber kit to craft that 'maybe/possibly/never' single 'choice' item. How many of you will be crafting or enhancing anything in the colored leathers, knowing that you can't 'imbue' them. Not many, when for a few resources that within a few months will be so farmed up that everyone will have a stockpile for the various mods they want imbued. You won't need your tailor or smith to actually 'make' armors/weapons, do bods or anything they will just exist to craft normal plain resource exceptional items to hand over to the imbuer, who just became the 'god of all crafters'. Imbuing cheapens every other craft skill in the game and makes those skills subservient to the Imbuer.

    My 'proposal' as such was not to say (as said above) they HAD to have a craft skill or couldn't imbue the item but to incorporate Imbuing into the existing crafting system to avoid this by:

    #(1) If imbuing was the ONLY skill they had the Imbuer could only imbue stone/glass crafted armor/weaps, or items marked gargoyle ONLY at the full 100% intensity. All other items could only be imbued to 80% intensity.

    #(2) If the imbuer also had GM tailoring, they could do the above, PLUS 100% intensity on Tailored items. Ditto for fletching, smithing, carpentry, tinkering, etc

    So for example: Without tailoring an imbuer could only imbue up to 16% LRC on leather instead of 20% which the tailoring skill combined with Imbuing would allow. Or say taming skill at +12 instead of +15 if they didn't have imbuer/tinker skill.

    It would have meant that to imbue at 100% intensity those items generally 'crafted' by another skill set you had to have the respective skill at GM level. The imbuer could still imbue leather, smithed, fletched, tinkered items to 80% (as shown above) so it wasn't like they were missing out or that the skill was nerfed, it would just have meant that the other crafts would not sink into complete subservience to the Imbuer. Once people are done with their 'training' as it is now the 'other' crafters will just become the char that churns out the 'stuff' to unravel or to make the 'starting' exceptional item to hand over to the imbuer.

    This would have meant that a 'customer' wanting some mod imbued would likely find an imbuer with tailoring skill to put that LRC onto their sleeves and an imbuer with tinkering skill to add the taming skill to their bracelet, etc. In the case of (1) above the Imbuer would need to find a gm or greater tailor to 'convert' an item to 'gargoyle Only' for them to add a mod at 100% if they didn't have the tailoring skill etc. It would have made the imbuer interdependent on the other crafters to be able to work all mods at 100%. The other crafting skills would have played an integral role to allow a ONE skill wonder to be able to craft items in their respective trades.

    Basically, imbuing has done NOTHING for any existing crafter or crafting skill other than to make them second class crafters. Frankly, I see this happening already with characters who just have Imbuing outselling and outcrafting anything my 5 year old Tinker can craft. And the same 'imbuer' outselling and outcrafting anything my 6 yr old legendary blacksmith can craft, outselling and outcrafting any bow my gm Fletcher of 6 yrs can make. Basically those crafters are NO longer required. Imbuing on jewelry and weapons is probably the worst thing as there is absolutely ZERO CHANCE the trades that 'own' these crafts can compete against an imbuer in items of their own trade. Couple this with the fact the imbuer can also modify store bought leathers, wooden armors/weapons, metal armors, all bows, jewelry, shields, etc makes the imbuer the god at the expense of the other 12 year old 'classic' trades.

    Customer: "hey Mr Fletcher, can you make me a nice bow with Demon Slaying, mana leech a bit of SSI and maybe some life leach or stamina leech please?"

    Mr Fletcher: "sorry no, at Grandmaster Fletching the ability to craft an item like that is beyond my skill"

    Mr Imbuer: 'sure thing, go buy a bow from the npc, and bring me xyz in ingredients and I will whip one up for you in a few minutes"


    As for the OP, imbuing should be at least 7 times harder and 7 times more expensive to train than it currently is as it is basically taking over 7 other trades Tailoring, Smith, Fletching, Carpentry, Tinkering, Masonry, Glassblowing and relegating these to the 'craft deco only' club.

    And yes, I have in less than a week, a GM imbuer, who is on their way to Legendary, and I have NOT been overly fussed in powergaming it. I have not spent a cent on getting the resources needed to get her to where she is. In another week, at a reasonable pace, she will outperform and outcraft with her 120 skill points the following invested by the 'other' crafts I have:

    120 tailor
    100 arms lore
    120 smith
    100 tinker
    100 carpenter (wooden armors/shields) (masonry-stone weapons armor)
    100 fletcher
    100 Alchemy (glassblowing - glass weapons)
    740 total skill points

    Who really needs all these skills now?
     
  23. The Fallout

    The Fallout Guest

    I agree! But I still have my right to complain lol
     
  24. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    You don't whine. Cause you're absolutely right. That's why I always say, UO has turned into a SIMS game that completely lacks of challenge.

    Just look at the new expansion. SA is a very nice expansion. But if you take a closer look, you'll see what this expansion is all about: New items. That's it.
     
  25. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Hawkeye I think I am going to have to respectfully disagree.

    You like to RP a pirate, and I like to RP a Scotsman or viking, I'm sure you know just how hard it is to get decent items of very specific type.

    Personally I think our sandbox just added another dimension. But I'm not going to go an kill myself to get that nice Norse helm, you know, within the next 24 hours.
     
  26. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    In a sad, pitiful way, i miss beating bone nights at the wall, rotting corpses at the shrine, etc etc with groups of friends. heading to the brit/moonglow smith shop to get my armor repaired by the skilled blacksmiths that made a living there.
     
  27. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    You just gave me a great idea haha
     
  28. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Gheed you do not need to be a powergamer to train this skill. Sure it may be alot faster but can be done without it cost you alot money.

    60k oak
    5k iron ingots
    15k DC ingots
    100 DC runics
    50 shadow runics
    GM LJ (or high enough to chop oak)

    None of this is needed, just kill the spawn and unraw the loot, if your crafter can't kill it, use your tamer.

    GM armslore
    GM fletching
    GM mining
    Fletching tali
    120 smithy

    Most crafters do have this but do not have to be on the char you are training

    3-4 mil to purchase gems
    Or you could mine the gems, kill stuff with gems, or maybe you had been wise and stacked them the last months/years.

    2 soulstones
    Only if you play Siege, else you will have enough chars to find room for it.
     
  29. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Certifiable
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    Hi there,

    I agree it should be hard.

    *Dreams back*

    1998 ,after starting on Atlantic shard there was news on a new shard that will rise.Europa,the shard of the brave.

    Im a Trinsic kind of guy so I started there.There was no forge at mountains so I had to drag all the ore to town.

    I was killed many many many times.Suddenly some of my trigger happy guildis decided to protect me.Whenever I saw a pk approaching I hide and called for them on icq.And they were there in just a few sec and killed the pk.
    :D

    This way it took only 5 months to GM.

    I mined 1h to get about 1000 ingots,after that banged metall for 5 min and got 0,1 in gains.
    tjooohoo.

    *wakes up*

    Oh,time to work.


    Regards
    The Scandinavian
     
  30. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Certifiable
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    Hi MissEcho,

    wonderful ideas.
    I so wish they listened to you.


    Regards
    The Scandinavian
     
  31. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    Ok, honestly I didn't read many of the above replies so maybe this was posted. If it was than I'm sowwie! Anyways, I noticed that some folks have made it to 120 within a few days of release. How can anyone claim it to be to hard if that feet was accomplished? Doesn't anyone here remember the days of pre-uoa (and like programs) and the old context menus? Lord, now that was long, tedius, and for the most part really boring skill gain. Even after UOA and whatnot, tradeskills could still be a pain. I can remember even during the days of powerhour, people taking weeks of constant skilling to gm skills such as poisoning, smithing, etc etc.

    This is just another reason why I believe we should have a shard with minor skill loss upon death.
     
  32. Maximus Neximus

    Maximus Neximus Lore Keeper
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    Don't hate because some people don't have lives and 120 it in a day or three... I'm personally at 90 and get bored after 10 minutes (or less) of training. So if someone can work it non-stop more power to them and they deserve to be there.

    With the anti-macro code gone (8x8, etc) power gaming is the way to go. This isn't 1998 anymore. GM doesn't mean ****. If people can get 120 quickly don't ***** because you lack the resources/time/patience to do so.

    Also no one has scripted this so I think they deserve it if they're there.

    /end intoxicated rant

    :pint: :party:
     
  33. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    My point is, that skills may be too easiy to raise in general. Alright, some people will direct me to Siege Perilous, which is not option for me for several reasons. But if a difficult crafting skill can be raised to Legendary in 2 days, then something is wrong with the system.

    Of course, it is handy being able to craft that very special piece of equipment you need to perfect your suit. But if it is that easy, everyone will wear the perfect suit. We have to ask ourselves whether that is really what we want.

    P.S.: When I RP a pirate, I usually wear simple non-runic-crafted GM-made armor that any crafter can make.
     
  34. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I mostly agree with what you posted, MissEcho. The problem I see is that with all the soulstones your nice theory becomes obsolete. It takes 3 minutes to turn an Artificer into a Tailor/Artificer and back into a Smith/Artificer.

    Take a look at how crafting skills changed over time:

    In the beginning:
    You mined ore, brought it into town (always risking to be killed), smelted it at the smith's shop, crafted items and sold them right there. It took a year to reach 100 Blacksmithing. -> A smith's service, even if he had only 80 skill, was high on demand and valuable!

    2 years later, houses had gotten nifty add-ons, like forges and anvils. Smiths usually built their house close to the mountain, thus reducing the risk of being killed and looted. -> It now was much easier to make a smith, but still it was a valuable skill.

    A little later, Trammel was invented, and smithing could be raised without risk.

    Also, exceptional crafting was introduced, which forced all smiths to raise their skill to 100 asap, otherwise they wouldn't sell any wares. -> Smiths with a skill below 100 were worthless.

    (From here on, I am not sure about the order of changes.)

    Powder of Fortifying was invented. Good items would never break. This completely killed the blacksmith service.

    Fire Beetles as walking forges made it even easier to farm metal and raise the skill. You now could raise smithing to 100 in a few days. -> Blacksmiths were no rare professions anymore. Almost everyone has a blacksmith mule now.

    Magic properties for items were introduced, as well as different resist types. While I like the idea of this change, yet it made regular crafted items worthless. -> Crafters needed runic tools in order to be in demand.

    BODs turned smithing into a mindless repetitive treadmill job. Instead of servicing their customers, smiths filled BODs almost 24/7, earned a nifty runic hammer and sold the results for millions on Luna vendors. -> These changes sounded the death knell for the blacksmith service.

    Soulstones allowed us to transfer skills between characters. Now, your character could change from a fighter into a crafter into a mage within a week. The NAME of your character lost its meaning. -> Crafting became impersonal.

    Now we have Imbuing. It is a nice skill. But it is a skill every mule will have at least GMed within a week.

    I ask myself, when will we ever see changes to UO that encourage player interaction and communities, instead of turning people into single-player item-addicts?

    Let me compare:

    In 1998, if you had 80 smithing, your crafting service was in great demand. You'd craft or repair simple metal items, and customers would pay well for your service. Being a smith was a attitude towards life in UO. Everyone knew that "Tom Quickhammer" was a reliable smith on your shard, and that he could be found by the Trinsic blacksmith shop. Hardly anybody had 100 skill, as it was too difficult to raise.

    In 2009, you need to have 120 smithing and 100 armslore, but it is no big deal, as most players have a mule with these skills. There is no such thing as a smith's service anymore. Need something? Craft it yourself. But use valorite ore and a high-level runic hammer, otherwise you'll be sitting on your wares. In order to be able to sell items, you need to spend most of your online time filling BODs; time you spend like you'd play a single-player game. What, you need smithing on a different character? Transfer it over, done. Crafters today are anonymous mules.
     
  35. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    Hum... small detail...

    You should have thought of it before getting to 120.

    Any changes now will only show favoritism... towards the power players instead of the average player...

    sorry to disrupt the logic of your post...
     
  36. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Oh thats a good idea. I've actually gotten really good at eyeballing the stuff on corpses and knowing what to grab and what to leave. My favorite right now is four property jewelry with at least one mod over 80%. So I can either add a fifth mod or if thats too difficult I have four other mods to try to change for an easier success rate.

    Imbuing is a thinking skill, especially when training. I think thats what annoys a lot of people. When you get high enough up there you can't just put resources in a bag and hit a macro, and out pop gains. I *like* that part of it though. It makes you interact with and learn the skill as you are going. And yeah, you probably can do it all the way burning tons of resources (like making GM crafted jingasas then adding different mods). But most people don't have an incredibly large supply of resources in order to just skill up without learning anything about the skill.

    It seems like the typical crafting training involves doing something unpleasant (skill training) in order to have access to what the skill offers. I like that imbuing is different. I'd like to see more skills be challenges for getting gains in other ways than just doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a .1 each time.
     
  37. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I'm not at 120. :) But, of course, you are correct. These changes cannot be reverted for several reasons, and I don't say they should be. I'm just saying that in the future the game designer should put more effort into considering the consequences of their ideas, in a long term. And make sure that the next expansion does not only bring new items, skills and monsters, but also has a concept to encourage community spirit, instead of encouraging soloing.
     
  38. I agree.
    6 months and imbuing will mean nothing.
    A waste of a great skill.
     
  39. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Sure I understand that, however with a soulstone you HAD to of at least trained that alternate craft at one point, and I don't have a problem with that at all. I have 3 crafter/gatherer type character now on the same account.

    Mist who has 120 tailoring, 120 smith, 100 carpentry, 100 tinker, 100 mining, 100 armslore, magery (65) and music (15).

    Cait who has 100 lumberjacking, 100 fishing, 100 cartography, 100 lockpicking, 100 magery, 100 meditation, 100 eval int.

    Eve who has 103/120 imbuing, 100 cooking, 100 alchemy, 100 fletching, 100 alchemy, (atm) 100 armslore, (atm)52/100 item id, magery the rest. The armslore and item Id will probably be removed to stones and I will fiddle around the skills once the imbuing is finished etc.

    Point is to have the ability to craft how I proposed you have to at least trained the skills and have them either on characters or on soulstones, at least you 'did the miles' unlike now where training one skill will allow you to basically 'have a crafter in all trades' for a measly 120 skill points.

    As a crafter I find it easier to make 'suits' on the character who 'wears' them, ie if I am crafting a suit for a human or elf then I want the char to be able to wear the stuff, if crafting for a gargoyle then I see a need for the crafter to be able to wear it as well. The major plus of the enhanced client is suit building and having all the stats add up etc while you are crafting. Atm the Imbuing character has 'eaten' a 120 imbuing scroll, and I have another 120 for one of the others to eat, so to allow for the full 120 skill to 'fit' with a stone then I will need to 'shuffle' stuff around so that I don't lose 20 points on stoning.

    Bottom line is I have put more than 700 skill points into my crafters, tailoring, smith, tinker, carpenter, armslore, fletching, alchemy and now other than for 'deco' I could just as easily have one char with imbuing on it and that char can make better items than my crafters in their own trades.

    That is what is totally screwed with imbuing, it will change the whole way of UO and I personally think it is to the detriment of the game. It will be like WOW where you will hear "looking for enchanter + xyz skill your mats plus tip".

    NO THANKS

    I think in the longer term people are going to look back and say what a totally wasted opportunity to actually 'enhance' crafting due to trying to 'please' the 'when do you want it?...... NOW!!" crowd.

    Today I went and bought a bracelet and ring from the npc (less than 60gps) and for 4 essence and 8 gems (cost of 0 gps) per skill put on 13 points of disco, provo & peace, and for some magic residue and gems an additional mod of 10% lrc on both pieces. Once my girl is loyal to the queen and can use the queensforge I will take her along and put an additonal 20 luck to each piece just cause she 'can' and it will cost nothing in the scheme of things.

    Not bad for a char that has 0 tinkering skill, to be able to make two pieces of jewelry that in 6 yrs of playing hard core I could NEVER find nor get a tinker to make. Seeing as how putting the first 'three' mods on both pieces I only had 1 failure, as soon as she gets to 120 I will blow the frags and make them 15 skill instead of 13 skill on another set. My point is, in less than 6 months I doubt you will find a char at the bank not fully kitted out in totally imbued suits made by imbuers who had no other crafting skill whatsoever. The days of the ONE SKILL WONDER are here.
     
  40. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Most players that train imbuing will have a mule somewhere with those skills. Though I could be wrong. Though imbuing skill is not what it seems like. At 120 I still can't craft anything better than what I have go figure. My looted rings-bracelets have more higher mods than possible and my armor and weapons are top end. Imbuing is still a suppliment skill compared to high end runic and high end loot. We all spent years gathering the best items for our characters imbuing cannot replace that for us maybe the newer players but we are already highend. Too bad but keeps the rest the same.
     
  41. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Miss Echo, I shortened your post so I can address certain things you said. In no way do I see Imbuing being the end all be all for crafting, nor do I think it makes all other crafting skills subservient. When you need to repair things, who do you go to? Not your imbuer, that's for sure. When you need to obtain PoF or runic crafted items (possibly for a starting point for imbuing) who do you go to? Not your imbuer. When you need arrows or bolts or tools or potions, who you gonna call? Yep, not your imbuer. You see those 740 skill points as wasted now, that's fine, why don't you put them on a soulstone and delete them. No? I thought not. Those skills are not only useful post-SA, they are extremely vital and viable. Not everyone is going to want imbued armor. Not everyone is going to use monster loot or npc items as a jumping off point for imbuing. The best part about this game is the diversity of options at our fingertips. I've used my crafters more in the past several months preparing for and training imbuing than I have since I first trained them. My cook/alchemist is out making dyes and potions to raise plants, my fletchers are burning bows (both runic and normal) and unraveling them, my tinkers are agonizing over the low exceptional rate on magic jewelry and preparing to burn said magic jewelry for my imbuer, my tailor and smith have been doing bods, collecting kits, repairing armor, crafting repair deeds, burning kits and unraveling... there's more and the list goes on. Sit back and breathe. I think you are limiting your scope and narrowing your vision as to all the possibilities and interactions the new skill can bring with the existing ones. I consider imbuing as breathing life into old skills that lay dormant or were previously underappreciated.
     
  42. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    You just basically underscored the point I was trying to make.

    My legendary tailor and smith, grandmaster fletcher, tinker and carpenter should ALWAYS be able to craft better armor and weapons than an Imbuer with NO SKILL in those trades. They should not be 'relegated' to making repair deeds, arrows, and doing bods to get kits or 'pof'.

    My point was not that the imbuer shouldn't be able to imbue all items but that the devs had the option to actually ENHANCE all the crafts with a tiny bit of thought instead of basically making imbuing a ONE SKILL wonder which is what they did. By tying imbuing to the 'other' craft skills it would have meant that the points allocated to those trades were valued in that to make the 'best' imbued leather you needed a tailor, and to make the 'best' imbued jewelry you needed a tinker. Instead the devs elected to bypass all existing trades and make them only useful for as you said, doing bods for pof, making arrows and repair deeds.

    I know full well what my 'characters' can still do. Point was that crafting was basically butchered as it stood as without high end runic kits nothing any crafter could make was worth diddly squat. Instead of fixing this and allowing the LEGENDARY crafters to actually use their skills effectively, they introduce a NEW skill which basically takes all the 'crafting' ability for armor and weapons away from the existing crafters as basically they cannot compete.

    You said: "nor do I think it makes all other crafting skills subservient" however you then say in your post:
    Nowhere there do you say your Fletcher is busy making bows, that your Tinker is making jewelry for resale or that your Tailor is making exceptional leather armor for suits for high end mages etc.

    If you don't see that your chars are now 'subservient' to the imbuer then you are not seeing what I see.

    You have to look at it in relation to the 'whole' skill thing, what would be your attitude if they introduced a skill called 'Follower Mastery' whereby once you were trained you could 'control dragons, cu's, hiryus, nightmares, summon colosus, earth eles, natures furies and charm ogres, and all manner of critters with no taming skill, no vet skill, no lore, no magery, etc. Would you then say you should be happy as your existing tamer with tame/vet/lore could still 'lore' things or 'vet' things and rez pets for their used 'skill points'?

    As for "You see those 740 skill points as wasted now, that's fine, why don't you put them on a soulstone and delete them. No? I thought not."

    Why would I? I haven't said there is NO use for the skills, just that for the actual trades they represent they are not actually 'crafting' anything in the way of weapons, armor or jewelry that can compete with the items an imbuer can 'craft' . For 120 skill points, the imbuer can craft BETTER items than all the above trades can craft for the use of 740 skill points. If you think this is appropriate fine. I just don't it that way. I see it as a butchering of the whole crafting system for UO.
     
  43. The Lox

    The Lox Guest

    I've played this game since 1998. In that time I have GM'd exactly one crafting skill, that was blacksmithing back before UO:R. My reasons for it was that it took a very long time and alot of work, but it was very valuable both as an income skill, and for my own characters gear. It was something special to have a GM smith.

    Imbuing is the first crafting skill I've been motivated to max out since, for the same reasons. In my book that means they have done it right.