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Suggestion/Request Improvement Idea - maybe?

Discussion in 'Stratics Help and Suggestions' started by Spartan, Apr 23, 2016.

  1. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    One thing at a time here. What would improve things from the players point of view? I am biting the bullet and opening this up to discussion of either policy or board software changes that MIGHT dispense with some of the black magic (some call it secrecy) that has been behind recent events.

    The biggest thing I have gathered from the rather heated posts is that suspensions/bans are done behind the scenes with little public knowledge. Traditionally this is the way Stratics and other boards I have been on work. However, in light of recent events maybe that should change. To wit I proposed these ...

    1. When a poster does violate ROC or TOS to a minor level that would get them a warning, make it public and not a PM/message or whatever. Why? Because their mistake was a public one ... so should be the response.

    2. When a poster has enough demerits or points against them to hit some threshold, give them an open warning that they are close to suspension/ban or whatever. Why? Because they have persisted in openly flaunting the rules.

    3. When a poster actually reaches the limit for suspension or ban, execute it (this is added to the original text) then announce it and point to the warnings they received and point accumulation warnings. Why? Because the infractions were PUBLIC, the warnings and points assessed were PUBLIC. Don't make a suspension or ban private so that rumors start - keep it out there.​

    Kylie Kinslayer suggested adding ...
    4- Put the demerits/point count on the posters avatar over there <------- with a 0/20 (arbitrary number) type counter. This way people can see the uniform application of ROC violations.​

    I don't know that violation count could go in the avatar info block, but some method of lookup would be nice. Overall this is a small start to opening up some of the details that go into actions taken by staff. But - and I emphasize this - this is only one part. Small as it is, I would like to see what others in the board can offer up.

    Mod(s) - if it gets out of hand, absolutely call down the wrath of the gods and do what you must. Oh well ... for better or worse I hereby will click "Create Thread" and cross my fingers.

    Thanks!
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Dread Lord

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    My name is kelmo. I was a (almost) 10 year mod. I never aspired to the admin level. What I look for in a forum is polite discussion and sharing of ideas. Chest thumping, finger pointing and crying... No.
     
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  3. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    I've seen through the time here off and on that there are persons who seem to revel in baiting and then there are those who want to be there. The third group just can't make up their minds! <shrug>

    Based on the cries of needing more openness - which were early on in that thread, do you think these points might have a chance to make the overall public see where the troubles are? Or would it be best to leave these rot and just try to survive? My own conscience says try and fight the fight ... and if you get bashed down, find another way to fight again.

    I don't know all of the current staff or what level they represent in the organization so this is really something perhaps should be discussed within themselves with some sort of dis/encouragement from a spokesperson. My opinion only ... no one elses.
     
  4. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

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    I suggested this myself but then there are those who would use the point system to "milk" it and keep themselves just under the bar but still spend years "milking" it and keeping from being suspended or banned. Oh I've got 300 points and it takes 400 to ban me .... I say this I get 20 points I'm good 2 more times maybe 3 .... then when some fall off the system in a couple months I can act like a jerk a few more times and then.... wait.... and do it again and again and again.
     
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  5. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    Yup. But this is another factor that I would think was part of the process ... "We have this person who habitually does such-and-so to barely skate by." It's a negative pattern ... and one that I personally would like to see publicly brought out as part of this process. Show the general public where the pot-stirrers are and the patterns they use.

    It would either cause the poster to leave, correct their behavior to a more acceptable level or continue and have that pattern become part of the process of suspension/ban for them. Case by case basis only ... not something that could or necessarily would apply to all.

    You and I both recognize there are some who purposely will say anything barely "legal" to simply cause disruption. Also there are those who are simply having a bad spell and it is not normally their board behavior. The first group gets warned, the second also ... however the first group is more likely to suffer in the long run - their behavior is detrimental to the overall community here.

    Make sense? I'm still on coffee number 1 and sometimes don't get my points across well.
     
  6. Elenni

    Elenni Stratics Sr. Leadership team member
    Moderator Professional Wiki Editor Wiki Moderator

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    The suggestions have merit, and I expect forum moderators around the world have debated some of the same (making infractions/points/warnings public.) There are a few related issues that I'm not sure how you'd resolve. If you have ideas, though...?
    1. Privacy: As noted, people have a bad day sometimes. I'd have concerns about it ostracizing the warned poster, or inciting them to argue their warning/infraction publicly (earning them further RoC/ToS violations with the net effect of "stacking" them), if you made infractions public.
    2. Discussion of moderator actions: Several reasons this is a policy...
      1. The privacy reason, above
      2. If the post was removed because the topic was off-limits, you now open up that very same topic by making it public (scripting, hacks, porn, hate-speech, etc.)
      3. You open an infraction to public discussion/trial, as to whether it was "deserved" or not. Transparency is great insofar as it goes, but practically speaking, you can't administer a forum if every action becomes a trial or discussion with 1000 jury members.
    3. Per Mal's comment above, sadly there are people who do like to game the system, or any system. That said, my personal preference is transparency combined with a better system. Anyone with hundreds of points is probably going to post themselves into a suspension or ban at some point. :-/
     
  7. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    Oh fardles! I asked for grenades and got some! Hmmm ... let's see what my warped mind can come up with.

    1. First offense ... and this is the ABSOLUTE first crack of the whip: "<insert posters name> The <above/quoted> post crossed the line of <Roc/ToS reference> and could cause some issues for you. How about backing it down a bit so you aren't warned again, as that will cause some points. If it's simply a bad day perhaps not posting here until things are more settled is a good idea. Thank you <Staffer name>"

    Second offense - same essential offense = points and open notification. They were warned.

    2.1. It is my opinion and it can be seen in that other thread - open discussion and even some name-calling - happened. Why not a public admonishment? As one person noted to me - public flogging for public disobedience at an unacceptable level.

    2.2. If offending post can be removed, then do so with notation like "post removed due to violation of RoC/Tos <section number>. Points assessed based on poster history of repeated offenses.". And the original text is off in Staffer-land.

    2.3. This is a possibility. But there will be repeat dissenters in all of this - due to friendships, belief in bucking the powers that be or whatever. This is where the fact the open actions could play in Mod/Staff favor. You point to them and say "You wanted open actions ... we supplied them. Perhaps going back to the original privacy is what you would rather have? Either you want some actions open or you do not. You cannot have both."

    3. If the person is gaming the system, you'll have that as a track record. Call it what it is - profiling. However in Law Enforcement, prior actions of criminals play into possible current troubles so there is a precedent.
    = = = = =
    Part of the new system announcement could include mention that "gaming the system" will only last so long before it also will have an effect on how an offending post is handled. Seriously ... try to make them think twice before saying something that could really hurt them because they try to skirt the rules.

    It sounds harsher than probably current structure BUT if the exact reasons people got a "whuppin'" are out there it's gotta act as a deterrent to some who might think they can also get away with things. I dunno ... but I do thank you for popping in and offering up more to ponder.
     
  8. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    You are right in a court of law priors do play a role... @Spartan. And I agree should be taken into account. You shouldn't have to as a mod constantly be telling the same person the same thing for the same offense again and again and again... Courts will go softer on someone who's a first time offender and may throw the book so to speak at a repeat offender...

    Either they should get the idea the first couple of times or they just aren't going to change the behavior. Again the public also shouldn't have to put up with or tolerate abuse from the same individual over and over this is when they start asking Mods and Staff "Why hasn't this person been banned I've reported them for this a million times!" and they eventually decide that the forums are not a friendly place to speak their mind or to ask a simple question.

    As the most important IMO things about the forums is the gathering of knowledge about the game, how to play it (within the RoC and ToS) to the best of your abilities, and what maybe is the best rig to use... what works, what doesn't work, good templates, Where to find the item your looking for, How to defeat that mob that keeps kicking you... where to find like minded folk to play with, where to buy or sell an item... How much is this worth?, etc...

    And of course not to forget about building community. Sharing interests, goals, life moments etc...

    It should not be a place for breaking the rules, harming the game or others, or how to cheat the game or the players.

    Sometimes it might be a place to vent when your frustrated with something about the game... but mostly it's about building community IMO.
     
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  9. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Maybe we just cut back on moderation and let people hash out issues between themselves instead of immediately running to tell the teacher that Billy just said something bad and he needs punished right now?
     
  10. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    Okay ... so if I interpret this right, you have no issues with any Mod or Staff actions that need to happen being done off the boards and in private messages as they are now? Is that correct?

    Because actually that does ease the pain of bringing some of this into play if so. I believe Tuesday was the day new stuff is supposed to roll out, but I don't see why we can't continue in this thread until then at at least.

    Now ... you say cut back on moderation. How so? How many RoC infractions are to go by the wayside before someone gets the chain yanked? I'm reasonably sure that more than a few instances go under the radar as it is now - and no immediate tattling. That last is a guess ... no hard facts known.

    And you know that left to iron things out on their own, there will be a degradation of civility with some personnel here. It's almost inevitable as we all have our hard spots.
     
  11. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    You didn't interpret it right at all.

    Moderators should be there to clean up spam and graphic posts like pornography/gore/illegal content. The rest should be simply the community choosing not to speak to undesirables. There's no need for "infractions" or "suspensions." Someone says something mean? Okay, the community responds - either they ignore it or they tell them what's wrong about it and then if they continue, they get ignored.

    The forum has an ignore feature for users who don't get along to use on each other.
     
  12. Spartan

    Spartan Seasoned Veteran

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    Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with a complete hands off as you're saying. I think that's too much the other way. However, let's go that way. Joe Poster supplies an undesired link in one of his posts ... what does the Mod do? What if it continues?

    So, disregarding anything else going on and dealing only with porn links or the like how would you handle posters like that? Let me get a sense of what you'd be like as a Mod in that scenario.
     
  13. Lord Nabin

    Lord Nabin High Council Sage - Greater Sosaria
    Professional Stratics Veteran Supporter Glorious Lord ACW

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  14. The Craftsman

    The Craftsman Lore Master
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    This isnt a court of law, its an online gaming forum for gods sake.
     
  15. The Craftsman

    The Craftsman Lore Master
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    The moderator deletes the post.

    The moderator deletes the post.

    The moderator deletes the post.
     
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  16. The Craftsman

    The Craftsman Lore Master
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    I have to say you talk a good game. But who are you? Seriously?

    Up until the big post on "The List" and the debacle that ensued, , barely anyone (and I mean posters who have been here for years) had even heard of you and yet you now hold a senior position here on Stratics, despite your account being only a few months old.

    Youve been asked this before and you constantly dodge/ignore the questions.

    So, in the interests of transparency can you please tell us how on earth you came to the position you currently hold, what qualifies you to do that, why you are a stratics user of only a few months, what role you had in funding the stratics bid and if this is a psuedo account and you were a previous stratics user, and if so under which name.

    Thank you in advance. an honest reply would be appreciated.
     
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  17. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Yes and people ought to remember that... and not treat other people who are also trying to enjoy the game and discuss the game with decency... and not be trolls, not be disrespectful and to remember that those are real people behind the posts...

    And everyone ought to have the right to not feel threatened or discouraged from posting here about game related issues. They should feel welcomed and encouraged to post.

    Most of the people who would be affected by the "rules" and such are the ones who fail to be respectful of other people. If you aren't one of those trolls and are conducting yourself in accordance to the rules and such then you have nothing to get all worked up about.

    If you aren't part of the community and your goal is to break down the community and cause issues then I suppose you might have something to worry about... and it isn't just that you might get banned...

    IMO people who get their jollies threatening and trolling others on the internet have FAR bigger issues than a ban from a game forum and have no business being on the forums.
     
  18. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

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    Some people go out of their way to 'feel' "threatened" or "discouraged" as a lifestyle. I don't think we should go out of our way to try to satisfy their fetish.
     
  19. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    None of this would be a topic of discussion if everyone just obey'ed Wheaton's Law.
     
  20. Lord Nabin

    Lord Nabin High Council Sage - Greater Sosaria
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    Clearly the necro of this thread was to just start more stupid drama.

    No posts since April 25 th and then 3 from the same self admitted troll.

    Must have been a slow day on uhall
     
  21. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    God I just hate when people DARE to share their opinions on a forum when they disagree with me, and doing in at their own leisure? Verboten!

    This thread didn't even leave the first or second page, and it's only been a few weeks, that's barely a "necro"
     
  22. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    I'm not sure why some seem to think that moderation of these forums is too strict. I have been on staff for a while, and a moderator for maybe 6 months or so. I have only issued maybe a handful of warnings, and rejected a good number of "reports". Heated discussions and disagreements have never been against the rules. Problems start when Stratics users try to tactfully instigate others, by either being 100% belligerent, nonsensical, or downright hateful. That is the type of behavior that no one should have to put up with in a civilized society and a gaming forum no less. Just because you are safe behind a computer doesn't give you the right to try to emotionally harm other people.
    Its one thing to say "I don't agree with you, you are wrong, and this is why..." It quite another to say things like... "lol idiot", "wow you are so stupid I'm not going to even try to explain why", and lastly "do everyone a favor and go jump off a bridge."

    If I am here trying to argue a topic, I shouldn't have to put up with the second scenario. No one else should have to either. So I I guess some people are offended that their methods of argument is against the rules... However we do not issue warnings or punish people for no reason or without history of conduct.
    Don't be a jerk and theres really nothing to worry about right?

    *shrug*

    In regards to the OP, I don't agree with public warnings and public shaming in any fashion. That will cause more problems then it will ever solve.
     
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  23. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Oh no my feefees on the internet, mustn't have them ruffled.