1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Recently, a few comments from Draconi, the game's LEAD Designer made at the latest UOHoC chat made me worry very much about what the future may have for crafters...

    "Seriously" considering ?
    "Obtainable in more interesting ways that touch more playstyles" ?

    "Through quests, crafting, hunting, and bosses" ??

    Hunting and Bosses ????


    In that regards, I would like the Developers to please consider the following when making up their decision.

    Ultima Online was born a "Role" playing game.

    That is, a game where players could pick a role and play that one.

    Crafters was one of the roles players would pick as the one of choice and, infact, many were enjoying the life and business of a crafter (Myself I started playing the game as a Scribe and spend most of my time at the Bank in Britain selling scrolls and full books).

    Then, unfortunately, because of Design changes crafters increasingly became what some players referred to as "mules". That is, not characters used as main ones, but merely to support fighting ones.

    The choice of introducing Peerless ingredients as required items for scribing, further damaged the possibility to play a crafter as a role choice.

    It has more and more become that crafters are merely in support of fighter characters and not a viable possible role playing character.

    If you continue this trend of introducing ingredients' requirements that force crafters to have to fight when their abilities should be in crafting, not fighting, crafters will stay condemned to the life of mules, and not surge back again to be a viable role playing characters.

    This, because if role playing crafters have to be subject to fighters selling them the rarest ingredients only obtainable through hunting, then their business will not be viable any longer since the much higher costs (having to purchase extremely expensive ingredients) and the competition from fighters who can do their own hunting AND also have on top of that crafting mules, will make it so that role playing crafters cannot stay in business.

    They will have higher costs and not much a market they can live on with.

    Remember that while a fighter can acquire gold in many ways, a role playing crafter has the crafting business as the main way to get going. Forcing role playing crafters to have much increased costs by requiring high end ingredients to have to be hunted, not gathered, will force them out of business and make the role playing of a crafter not possible.....

    This, as I said, would condemn crafting to stay a mules' activity and never surge back to role playing status.

    I can understand the need to make some ingredients rarer, but this can still be obtained making their drops a lower rate when chopping wood or mining ore or, in alternative, you could add them to Treasure Chests and Fishing Nets to offer at least chance to role playing crafters.

    All I am saying is please, do not condemn crafting to permanent mule status by making it required for high end ingredients to only be found through hunting.

    Please, help crafting be able to come back to the role playing status it deserves.

    Thank you for the attention.
     
  2. NewThunder

    NewThunder Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    This can still easily be done.

    If you are simply having a crafter for roleplaying, why does it matter how the ingredients are obtained? Also will soustones, you can easily swap out skills and allow your crafter to have the skills to obtain the ingredients.

    Roleplaying is all about a players imagination, it should not matter one bit where you get your ingredients from, or even if you craft the highest items. If you want to sit a the bank and sell scrolls and books, you can still do that. Stop letting your perceptions of what you should be able to do, with what you are able to do in the game.




    Just because a char is not a "main" char does not mean it can't be used for roleplay.
     
  3. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Please seriously consider using proper channels for these requests.
    They should be submitted to EA through their feedback form which can be found here:

    http://www.uoherald.com/feedback/index.php
     
  4. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    The concept of easily is subjectable.

    Easy for a fitted fighter, perhaps, but a role playing fitted crafter ?




    When I say "role playing", I mean playing the role of a crafter for most of the in game time spent. Which means, dedicated a player's time to crafting, for the most part.
    Figthing and getting experienced at it may or may not be in the picture of a player who chose crafting as their most meaningfull playing role in the game.



    As I tried to explain, but perhaps I did not do it well, "requiring" to hunt to gather ingredients needed for crafting, can effectively kill a role playing crafter's business because of the competition with fighter's crafting mules (they can hunt for their own ingredients) AND their much increased costs from having to purchase at a premium price the ingredients they need from fighters. A combination that kills the possibility of playing a crafter as a chosen playing role.

    Hence, it condems crafters to stay being used as "mules" when needed, for the most part.

    Besides, it is even unnecessary to have ingredients required to be hunted for. If there is a design need to make them rarer, all that is needed is to lower their drop rate when chopping wood or mining ore. Why kill crafting as a viable playing role and condemn them to be mere "mules" when the rarity CAN be achieved working on their drop rate when gathering resources ?

    So now I should think that crafting "mules" do not exist ??

    If we want to have a discussion on the topic please, let's call a spade a spade.

    That's at least how I see it.
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    Do I need to understand from your reply then that open discussions on the issue are not usefull to Developers to help them make up their mind which way they want to go ?

    That is, that feedbacks which lack the openess of a public discussion are the most usefull way?
     
  6. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I roleplay my crafter without problem. Thank you very much.
     
  7. Myna

    Myna Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    it seems a lot player dont understand what she wanted to say.

    of course you can play all kind of chars, fighters, crafter etc.

    but do you consider that not all players have the time to play all of their chars, that they have more important things to do in rl?

    so a lot players have to decide which char they want to play in the maintime.

    if you have only 1 hour time to play every day, you dont have the time to gather enough resources for example at peerless with your fighter, then to craft things then to sell it at bank wherever.

    and no, you cant just buy resources ... the UO economy is so f....ed up that resources are expensiver than the product .... if you want to compete with other crafter you MUST gather resources yourself.

    and there are a lot players who dont want to play a fighter even if they have the time to do it.


    it must be possible to play a crafter without playing a fighting class
     
  8. NewThunder

    NewThunder Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Actually it is your perception that condemns them to "mule" status, there are many players that roleplay with crafter chars, perhaps all it takes is imagination. There are no rules to Role playing that state a crafter has to be able to craft the highest end items, again it is your perception. It boils down to you wanting to be able to craft the highest end items without the risk of obtaining the ingredients.
     
  9. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    52
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    From what i am understanding your posts in this threaad popps, you want to play your crafter as an crafter. And you are concerned about not beeing able to maybe gather all of the needed resources and not earning enough money to be able to buy some?
    Ummm ... that sounds silly to me ...
    If I would play my crafter more, I would make much more money than I am making now. I simply would need to craft more items for the needs of the npcs (bods and heartwood quests namely).
    If you want to roleplay with your crafter, than you might want/should join a roleplaying community. I am not familar with rp'ing but I had a look on Europe (my 'home' shard) at it. You wont need to have any fear about not beeing able to gather or not to be able to buy the neccessary resources for your roleplay here.
    Only to mention by the way .... my crafter is not able to gather any of his needed resources. I have a true miner/lumberjack for that purpose. (My crafter is SO famous, that he will never risk his life and his precious and rare knowledge of crafting again somewhere in the wilderness.)
    Additionally I am wondering about how you are collecting barbed hides with your crafter?
     
  10. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I'm agreeing with Popps on this issue. It was discussed in earlier imbuing threads and the consensus then was the playerbase was glad ingredients from peerless were dropped from the mix. This same topic has been discussed over and over for the last few years. I commented on it yesterday in the HOC thread.

    So before everyone jumps on the flog Popps bandwagon again, try answering those last 2 questions of mine realistically.
     
  11. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    I guess it all depends what one considers as "Role" playing.

    Personally, playing a Role means spending most of the time in game playing that "role" regardless of the circumstances.

    For example, if one plays the role of an archer, one plays the archer whether or not that skill might be the best in any given circumstances.

    Unfortunately, I have realized that a number of players see role playing simply as playing what skills may be more fit for a given scenario.

    So a dexer when a dexer is more succesfull, an anrcher when archery yields more bang for the buck, a tamer when using pets gets to the goal the best and so forth.....

    To me, playing a role means playing it whether it gets the most for the bang or not.

    Maybe I am old school, not sure, but role playing I don't think is swapping skills like changing clothes........
     
  12. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following


    In a game where most players are self sufficient (i.e. they make for their own needs), already there is little market for a crafter, and that litttle market is mostly limited to high end stuff which need higher skills and more dedicated game play.

    Unfortunately, if in order to make high end craftables the role playing crafter has to buy resources at inflated prices from fighters because they have been made available only through fighting high end creatures, the role playing crafter will have very high crafting costs.

    Now, since many fighters on average have crafting "mules", they will be able to self support their high end ingredients only available through fighting and, this way, have much reduced costs.

    Not only they will lower demand for crafters because they (the fighters) will make their own imbued high end items, but they will also compete AGAINST the role playing crafters at lower prices since, they have lower costs (remember, the role playing crafters have to buy their high end ingredients from fighters now at inflated prices...).
    Hence, the role playing crafters will be unable or hardly able to effectively play their chosen role.




    It would be much better for a player who wanted to play a crafter if any and all resources needed for imbuing were to be obtained through gathering (such as chopping wood or mining ore) or, at most, through treasure chests and fishing nets and if it is needed to increase their rarity, just twist the rate at which they drop......


    Hides can be gotten from almost anything in the game, also mongbats, drakes, lizardmen and Dragons among others. It is not necessary to have to fight high end Peerless or Bosses for them.
     
  13. Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Hmmm. In any fantasy story I've ever read (and I've read hundreds if not several thousand) in which a magical weapon/armor/whatever was needing to be made, there were always very rare ingredients needed that required a group of fighting types to obtain.

    Doesn't seem all that strange to me.
     
  14. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    You don't want to be the best at it, so how comes you ever put into consideration the last expansion that added the best gear to craft?

    Again I'm sorry, I roleplay my tamer too and no that doesn't mean I'm farming with a GD. Nobody ever had this concept of roleplay in mind. My activities vary a lot. Lots of different pets. Several very different characters. They all have their personalities. My crafter is certainly not a mule, I have fun with her and I have almost no ML recipe.

    For those crying because they want to craft only and not fight peerless, either you play lonely in your corner and craft a mountain of rubbish that you haven't an idea what to do with. Or you use vendors to sell regularily approvisioned furniture, potions, plant resources, cooked things, etc. You can't expect to play casually, never get the high-end resources (not even buying them), and then be able to craft the top PvP suit.

    Seriously... "I play once a month and I'm not able to catch up with the best PvPers on my shard! What a scandal!"
    Yeah sure.
     
  15. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    How many fantasy stories involved going to the bank and drawing a check for 1M GP to buy that ingredient?

    Just saying, we need to keep this discussion within the realm of UO.
     
  16. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    235
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Find someone to roleplay a "supplier of unusual ingredients".

    I like that I can't have/get/do everything with one character type. It should encourage player interaction, so now you have clients to craft for.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  17. Silverbird

    Silverbird Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    52
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    *sigh*

    Playing a role is by usually means something very different from roleplaying.

    I am a player and I actually play my crafter. My crafter has absolutely no chance to gather any resources on his own. Simply becourse I choosed to do.

    If you decide to focus with your crafter on high-end (Ml) craftables, it is your decision. If you decide, you need rare peerless reagents for playing your crafter, is is your decision. Dont suppose every crafter to follow that line only becourse you do. And pls dont blame the devs for your playstyle.

    The only way to get higher valued ingots is to go out mining. If I dont like mining, I have to buy the ingots from someone. Same with lets say peerless reags or woods or the new to come imbue ingredients. But wait .... there are several ways of getting those ingredients. Except for old crafting skills some of the new resources for them are going to have alternative ways of getting them.

    As for imbuing itself .... I am able to follow (and did follow) all of the public discussions about them. I have a roughly understanding of the economy of UO. I usually gather my own resources (with alts) and can estimate really well how rare some of the already existing resources are. I dont think, there will be a market for selling imbued items or for imbuing high-end items for other players. The failure rate is simply too high, when it comes to imbuing a 5'th property with a 'good' intensity. Even charging a 4'th property will become very difficult, if not impossible. Have a look at http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=153388 and tell me about how you would charge a customer for that.

    As for your understanding of the relationship between fighters and crafters .... well ... when does someone become a 'role playing' crafter? Basicly if a mainly fighter spends (the same) time into building his crafter, why shouldnt he be able to compete with your crafter? If you dedicate all your playing time to crafting, why do you fear, someone, who spends most of its time to fighting, has even a chance to compete?
     
  18. NewThunder

    NewThunder Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Why not just make it so a player can click their heals together 3 times and say "I want imbing resources, I want imbuing resources, I want imbuing resources"; when resources are obtained only through gathering it benifits the scripters, perhaps that is what your intentions are here.
     
  19. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    yes,supply and demand,should be the biggest part of an mmo game.

    atm we have to much sellers and almost no buyers,so most vendors are untouched for weeks.
     
  20. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Up until ML crafters were crafters, fighters were fighters, and each character type had their own orbit. At worst, a miner or lumberjack, the gathering professions might have to fight or flee depending on where they were gathering.

    Then, with ML came the requirement of special ingredients required for certain high end items that could only be obtained by fighting. The fighting of higher end mobs at that.

    Now we have a new system that is labeled as crafting but touches nearly every other craft in the game and will require primary components for the skill to be obtained mostly through combat. Regardless if you think this is a good thing or bad, it does represent a step away from the original designs of this game where the crafts existed in a non-combat orbit.

    I am not surprised to see the majority of responses say either 'suck it up' or 'work around it' because non-combat characters and players are likely a very small minority of players at this point.

    Its all fine. Another piece of open sandbox, play like you want to play world that Raph created so long ago slips away. And few will suffer from the change. But it makes this world more and more like every other combat based game out there where their features of better chat, better graphics, better interaction methods for player exchange of goods, become the comparison points because.. well, everybody has combat.

    Yes, its all fine. Just make all the games the same....
     
  21. Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Well, if something needed to be bought, or someone paid off to go and get something, they usually used a bag of gold, not a check, but hey, we've got bags and we've got gold. There is such a thing as background stories.


    It's a fantasy world in which anything is possible. That's a pretty big realm.
     
  22. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I'm not sure how I manage it, but I live in a much simpler UO world than some people seem to.
    The way it works for me is, Mage to Crafter 'Can you make me a pendant of the magi?'
    Crafter to Mage 'Yes, if you bring me the eye of travesty'.
    Mage gets the special ingredient, crafter makes the item, then charges a fee that reflects the fact that one of the ingredients was supplied by the customer.

    Mind you, she also collects her own bones. She made a suit out of Heartwood boards, with hci, she made a katana with hci with a copper hammer, she bought 2 x +15 swords jewels and a + swords dread pirate hat, she goes to Oaks spawn in Ilsh and she kills shadow wisps.
     
  23. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I seem to remember you crying recently in a thread about what this new skill was going to cost you to train. It didn't sound like crafting without a problem in those posts.


    Doesn't that fence up your crack start to hurt a little?
     
  24. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Dread Lord

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    4,698
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    *smiles* That is how I roll as well Petra. Kind of a " You want this, bring me that" sort of immersive world...
     
  25. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    That this game has a problem with scripting I don't see why it should be role playing crafters who should pay the consequences that scripting has so far gone on unopposedly in Ultima Online. Or, if you will, not with realistic successes (the fight against scripting...).

    I am absolutely against cheating, duping, hacking, scripting in the game and I think it should be made a #1 Priority of the game owners to eradicate it from the game.
    This said, though, I do not see why it should be role playing crafters who need to be those who pay the consequences for the lack of such fight in the game.

    Leave to crafters the ability to role play a crafter AND fight endlessly cheating, duping, hacking and scripting in the game.

    That is how I see it.
     
  26. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Dread Lord

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    4,698
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Do you expect the cook to kill the dragon?
     
  27. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following


    But that only leaves to crafters the possibility to make their living in the game off of tips......

    What if a crafter wanted to have a profitable business from the work, time and dedication put into it ?

    Tips may not be exactly the best way for that....

    Being able to craft finished high end items would definitively allow for a more profitable and rewarding, from a crafter's perspective, enterprise. Wouldn't it ?
     
  28. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    You're mixing crafters and resource gatherer.
    I don't have lumberjacking on any of my characters. It's my choice. I have a carpenter. Do I ask to be able to make decent wooden armor without the appropriate wood? No.
    Why are you crying about Imbuing when Barbed Leather should be the thing that'd make you fall in tears.

    Lots of solutions. To raise Imbuing :
    - Place a locked down container for anyone at your steps and ask friends to fill it with craps when they hunt.
    - Get a runic kit (buy or BOD) and unravel the crafted items.

    To make big items :
    Buy the resources (minors, gems if you don't mine). Imbuing sells by orders anyway.



    In case you didn't see, most of UO's content is about fight. 3/4 of Tailoring is about fight, all of blacksmithing is too. Imbuing is, with very few exceptions, for fight. You want to play a role to provide things for fight. Accept to rely on things coming from fight too. Once the seller, the other the buyer.

    You can't say "No I don't want to gather resources, I want to craft uber gear from thin air".

    Work with other players if you don't want to do things by yourself. Period.
     
  29. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following


    That "some" hunting may be necessary for a crafter, that would not be a big problem.

    The problem comes when very very high end monsters would be needed to be hunted for the ingredients like the ML Peerless or the new Medusa and the New Dragon os Stygian Abyss.

    Those are extreme fighing, not ordinary fighting.
     
  30. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    This is the part you are injecting. Nobody has said they want to be uber crafters or craft the best gear without interaction or effort. They just want to play a crafter and maybe make a few things for their characters.

    Yeah, I know. Seems like a lot to ask...
     
  31. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    We have already had the test with ML and Peerless ingredients for inscription.
    It killed role playing crafting for many.

    It certainly did for me and other scribes I used to know.

    Most of my ingame time was scribing, when ML came out with the peerless ingredients required to make scrappers and that besically I had to stop role playing my scribe.

    Until then only a few were actually playing as a Scribe, with ML all of a sudden fighters took up scribing and became using the ingredients gathered through fighting peerless to support their scribe but to my opinion, they never really played the role of scribes, they merely used scribes to take an advantage in the game.

    If I wanted to buy the needed peerless ingredients I could not be competitive since often the cost of the ingredient was higher than the cost of the finished book and so I gave up.

    After playing a scribe for so long I gave up and eventually stopped playing for a while feeling the game had gone into a direction not to my liking.

    Now we are going to see the same thing with imbuing ?

    I hope after the ML Peerless ingredients experience and how it killed crafting role playing for many this time there will be more reason and thinking before just making that same choice.
     
  32. Ludim

    Ludim Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Really? This is a UO forum where UO related subjects are discussed. You are really bad at your job and a smartass on top of that.
     
  33. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    How in hell did peerless ingredients kill inscription? The only thing it's used for is scrappers compendium.
    I have to restock my inscription vendor daily, she sells gate scrolls, invis scrolls, bod books, rune books, full spell and necro books, rez scrolls, earth elemental scrolls and earthquake scrolls. Not a scrappers in sight.
    In the future she's looking at being able to make her own necro books to fill instead of buying them, making her own blank scrolls, even making blue books for the role players.
     
  34. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    To be fair though, don't you have to admit that the scrappers was a whalloping escalation of power - four mods on top of whatever the scribe adds?

    (and is it possible you are comparing economies of two very different shards?)
     
  35. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    If you actually get Popps to change his mind and agree... it will likely be the death of me by heart attack..
     
  36. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Wait ... what thread am I in? Aaah! *flees for the exit*

    (actually I was kinda agreeing with him ... as someone who doesn't do peerless, I always felt a little left out by ML ... there were already more than enough things to spend my gold on)
     
  37. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Why should crafters be self-sufficient? Doesn't co-dependence encourage player interaction and community?
     
  38. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I will try to state this once more in meta game terms and hope that my point will be heard by at least a few ears....

    The game as it exists favors hardcore and/or high time players. They comprise probably the majority of the player base and almost certainly the majority of regular posters on the forums. Whether this is avoidable or not is not the focus here. Lets leave that argument for another day.

    Imbuing is a new and powerful skill that will reach into many other existing crafting skills and into combat items. Most of you will really enjoy imbuing. It suits and fits to your playstyle well. It was designed with you in mind.

    What it does not do is broaden playstyle alternatives in any way. In fact, it tends to focus preferred playstyle around the majority that exists.

    So what of it? Well, it will push a minority, a few players, more to the margins. And it certainly won't be attract new players on its own.

    Over the months and years to come, the player base will continue to self select around the core playstyle of the game and the world will grow a little bit smaller.

    Perhaps this is what must happen in an aging game.. a struggle to keep the interest and hang onto existing players. Never the less, a smaller world makes me sad.
     
  39. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Jesus, what a stretch. Mules were around long before boss dropped reagents.

    Part of crafting is working the market, both for your supplies and to sell your wares.

    What engendered mules was trammel, powerhour and the single player mentality which you so thoroughly embody.

    I would not be surprised if you are quite the solitary player if your persona in game is anywhere near annoying as you make yourself on these boards.

    But that is your problem. Let's not reclibrate the game to a single player modality to cater to sociopaths.

    Its fine for some raw materials to be rare, expensive and not subject to scripted gathering.

    Incidentally, I have a hard time believing you could roleplay your way out of a wet paper bag.
     
  40. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    A world where both self sufficiency and co-dependence are possible is a large world.

    A world where is there is one 'right way to play' is what exists in so many of the more modern and popular level based games.

    Which is a better world for you?
     
  41. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Only one of those options is a world. The other is a mere computer game :)
     
  42. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following


    A crafter acquiring their own resources is still not self-sufficient. They still must interact with a customer in one form or another or their craft is a waste. The calls to make the resources rare and obtainable only through fighting is nothing more than an attempt to keep the crafters relegated to second class status in the UO world.

    Since the smiths left the public forges ages ago, crafters have struggled to regain a viable spot in this world. Struggled against the loud mouthed bullies that would keep them pushed aside. Imbuing was looking as if it would strike a blos on their behalf, and it still may. But Draconi needs to elaborate on what he meant by bosses.
     
  43. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    17
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    I think it`s important to differentiate between the resources needed training a skill and using it at GM and beyond. I think no special/rare resource should be required to train a skill. Very much the same way you don`t need barbed leather to train tailoring, or frostwood to train carpentry. All crafts have as base common resources you can buy from NPC`s, making the skill easily obtainable for all that puts in the time and effort. UO is the game that differ from the masses in that respect. And thank god the requirement for peerless ingredients got abandoned in training.

    At first I thought SA would take us into a whole new direction. It does - in a way, with the required residue, essence and relics. I am not overly pleased with that actually. But - the dev team have left the door slightly open. You still have the possibility of using runic hammers received from the bod system, and iron gathered while mining to create and unravel to get ingredients. It will probably take longer time, but the option is there. You don`t need to go out and hunt if you don`t really want to.

    When it comes to actually using the skill and creating items it`s a different matter. When ML was launched I looked forward to be able to craft artie-like items for my shop, but quickly realized I had not the time to do so. Instead I sticked to crafting with resources that I could get easily. Other crafters did have the time and interest to invest, and were able to restock their vendors regurlarly.

    They choose to invest that time, while I didn`t and continued happily to sell wooden benches and maple armoires. Would I have loved to buy taint at a reasonable price and still made a profit? Oh yes - of course. But as in any other MMO, the price on resources are usually higher than the pricetag of the item you can create with it.

    If crafting highend imbued items will be important to you, then create a possibility for you to do so. If not - that is your choice. I still have no idea if I will be able to actually create something with the imbue skill - but I do think, and hope - that I will be able to GM it. Over time.
     
  44. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Yes, Maplestone, the scrappers is a powerful item, though not the only powerful spell book in the game. But to dismiss an entire skill as 'useless' because you are unable to make one item on the menu is, in my unimportant opinion, making mountains out of molehills. My crafter can't even write scrappers, she has no eval and very little magery. I don't consider her having the skill as a waste of points, she very adequately supplies the needs of her customers.

    My friend on Europa also has a very busy inscription vendor and stocks no scrappers. He laments to me frequently about the fact that someone bought all his runebooks and recall scrolls.

    As for imbuing - I plan to tweak my characters' suits and equipment so that they are what I wished they were instead of what I compromised at. I don't need them to be 'uber' I just need them to be suitable for purpose.
    I made a mock up of an 'all 70s suit' for my son's role play character, no magic properties, just 11 or 12 in each resist on a 6 piece suit. It didn't need to go to 90%, so it didn't cost any special ingredients.
    I see no problem whatsoever in continuing to play my characters in the way I always have. But then I, and my characters, lack one key attribute - avarice.
     
  45. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    10
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    They shouldn't be. I've been in this argument before. At least we don't have any "true" crafters poking in and giving their 2 cents.

    There most definitely needs to be a compromise. All the top tier items should not be craftable with peerless ingredients only. There should be some things a crafter can attain on their own. In the same light there should be things that are completely out of the scope of a crafter to obtain by any means other than from someone capable of slaying said boss/peerless/big nasty.

    There could easily be created a middle ground. The game has enough extremes already. All they do is polarize the players.

    I will have no problems getting anything. I'm a dirty power gamer and have a mule for all my stuff as well as a sampawammytamercro to get my ingreds. So any changes won't affect me one way or another. I just see both sides of the argument.
     
  46. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    When I started playing, I chose to be a Scribe and I became a Scribe.

    I was standing in perhaps 80-90% of my gaming time near Britain's West bank on the Steps by the Artist Guild.

    I liked it very much because it helped me chat with the thieves, who little by little I befriended and left me alone, with fellow players who came to me and haggled about pricing, offered items as barter if they did not have gold.

    It was nice, social, and a very relaxing game experience for me.

    Then came the vendors who took much of that away.

    Players preferred to shop at vendors at their best convenience rather than looking for me or other scribes like me at the time we were playing and then came ML with the Peerless ingredients.

    Already we had had much of our customers turn for the little stuff to vendors but at least we had still some customers looking for bigger things like a bunch or resurrection scrolls, or recall scrolls or Gate scrolls or full books.

    Custom made orders which at least were keeping us going.

    But when ML came, at least for me and other scribes I knew, it was like a slap in the face.

    I mean, for long all I was, was playing a scribe, or most of my playing time, and I enjoyed it.

    Then comes a very nice thing to make with my skill, and I lack the ingredients to make it because it required hunting the top of the Monsters back then ?

    I tried buying a few ingredients but soon I relized I was almost losing money on them as the ingredients often were sold more than the actual books because by then, fighters had developed scribes and making their own books and keeping those they liked, and almost giving away those they did not have much use for.

    It was over, my happy years as a scribe were over, killed first by the vendors and then by the ML expansion and its Peerless ingredients' requirement.

    That is when I decided to stop playing for a good while.

    I can understand the need to avoid scripting or make some resources rarer, but it is not necesary to resort to the hardest monsters out there.

    Making them available in treasure chests, something which CANNOT be easily scripted, could well take care of that need without harming so much those who want to role play a crafter. Their rarity ? Adjust their drop rate in treasure chests and the problem is solved.

    I mean, it is NOT necessary to have them drop on Medusa only, in order to deal with scripting and rarity. The same goal can also be obtained in other ways, more reasonable and respectfull of those other players who, perhaps, may want to use crafting as their preferred choice of role playing.

    No matter how odd it may look to some.

    I may be old school, but I do not see crafting as making a bunch of stuff, put them on a vendor and then log off.

    For me crafting is dealing with the people who may need my skills, advertise my wares, particularly my jewels, in the sense of the best items my skill can help me make and entertain my patrons with them.

    When those changes came it was not possible for me any longer to enjoy the game as I had done for years.....
     
  47. popps

    popps Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    13,445
    Likes Received:
    461
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following



    Out of sheer curiosity, what is a "sampawammytamercro" ?

    And how can you fit so many skills on just 1 template ??
     
  48. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Stop the annoying drama and sum up your post to that : "Please make peerless regs drop in Treasure chests."

    You overreacted at the arrival of the Scrappers, you emoquit and nobody cared. /wrists
     
  49. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    Here's something you non-crafters have failed to acknowledge. How do you obtain spawning artifact weapons/armor? How do you obtain replicas? How do you obtain non-craft powerscrolls? How do you obtain relic level items to unravel?

    answer: fighting, fighting fighting, fighting

    OK, you're a well-skilled fighter and can obtain all those things, but wait, you also want to control the only source for high end ingredients as well!

    Seems mighty one-sided and greedy to me.

    For the record, I do peerless runs and champ spawns too. I just think tying crafters hands in this manner is just rubbish.
     
  50. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Re: Ingredients for Imbuing, I invite the Developers to please consider the following

    For the record I wasn't agreeing with that part - I just think the scrappers could have simply been like any other ML craftable with one extra property and been powerful enough ... with four extra properties was too large a power leap in one item and cut off a lot of the possible design space of different craftable spellbooks.

    As for peerless ingredients in general? Well, we could have a long discussion about how much the game needs to adapt to the player vs how much the player needs to adapt to the game. I don't think there's a right answer, but I do think there is a design flaw in the ML craftable artifacts: the act of crafting has no gameplay.

    So after the skills are trained and recipes learned, all the gameplay switches to other characters. The crafter only has to come out again to click a button. That's not a terribly exciting niche. At least with a shop of potions and scrolls, there is some "effort" in keeping it all stocked that gives you a reason to stay logged in with your crafter. If you're crafting a scappers, how long do you actually log into your scribe? (unless you happen to be playing the scribe as a combat mage as well)