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Instant Gratification -- some thoughts

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Prince Caspian, Oct 2, 2011.

  1. I do the Doom Gauntlet regularly. I have for the past four years.

    As such, I have a nifty cabinet of Doom Arties, but none of them are the truly top shelf items -- orny, hat of the magi, and so forth.

    But you know what? That lack of that particular accomplishment doesn't make me mad, instead it keeps me coming back for the challenge.

    I see people pancakes about the new Honesty virtue. That they don't have time to scour the land looking for these trinkets and that they aren't getting a satisfactory reward for their time.

    Well I've looked for three hours and still haven't found one of these items. Tram OR Fel. But you know what, it's cool with me. Because this is just another element of the game I can revisit and enjoy.

    Also, people are up in arms when (God Forbid) a task or skill takes more than a weekend to master in Ultima Online. What's wrong with the journey, getting your mileage out of a quest or game aspect?

    Someone recently posted that many folks just hop here on Stratics, get the dissection and steps of the latest event, zip through it, and add the latest pixelcrack item to their treasure trove. If that's how you choose to spend your entertainment, that's your business. But I submit you'll find it a lot better if you explore what the event has to offer, puzzle it out and experience it for yourself, soak in the story. And only use the Stratics solution postings to help when you are really stuck. You'll get much more bang for your buck, and you'd probably not be so fast to say an event sucks or was too easy.

    Instant gratification is habit forming, and it robs you of the true game experience. Maybe the fact a task is taking far longer than you anticipated is in fact a merit, not a problem.

    Now if you'll excuse me, time to go run the Gauntlet. Tonight may be the night. :p
     
  2. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Some players do want instant gratification. But many of us are more interested in the balance. I've played this game since day one, and considering several brief spells of moving on before coming back I've played it for about 13 years. And it sort of burns me when I go to an event where some valued treasure is offered on the rare spawn and I can't even get looting rights.

    Now after Imbuing and getting my Imbuer skilled up, I've been able to compete in most circumstances. There are still times I can't but I can live with that, however, it takes some special code to make Tamers less effective in most of those cases.

    So, see, my point is that it's not always instant gratification that's the issue, but fairness and balance.

    I just wanted to toss this in here, because there's sure to be some bleeding over from your point.
     
  3. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Doom: Fun to do, profitable to do. Kill monsters usually with friends, get high end drops and artifacts. You may not get an artifact every time, but you ARE rewarded any time you go.

    Honesty: Completely tedious and un-fun to do, very little profit. Run around the world ctrl-shift spamming for HOURS on end and HOPEFULLY get ONE dot of progression so you can buy slightly cheaper stuff from npcs. Oh yeah, and it degrades over time.

    All things in game take time, and effort, but that needs to be in line with the nature of the process and the reward.

    Honesty is out of line with that formula, and honestly (har har) for what you get a person should be able to max it in under a week of working on it. As it is I think if you did it 24/7 for a week I doubt highly that it would be done.

    Either the item spawn or the points you get need to be bumped by a lot to make this a decent addition.
     
  4. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    Uvtha that’s one painful pun. I have to agree I love doing most of the virtue, but the honesty one is a bit unbalanced. Its more an issue with the rate of spawn then it is with the time involved in doing it in my mind. There are a lot of us running around so it makes sense that there should be more then there are especially with just how large the world is.
     
  5. nynyve

    nynyve Guest

    The game needs to be balanced to satisfy different play styles and time requirements. Some players as much as they love the game, have periods where they do not have three hours week to play--thus to spend 3 hours looking for an item without success, is for them intolerable. They don't have time to do the Doom Gauntlet, and don't have anyone to teach them the ropes.

    The special quests also do not take different power levels into account. For example none of my crafters could participate in the Easter quest and survive. I don't even know anymore if they could participate in any special events on Legends--the ones in the past have left my characters in the dust, to the point where I never even pay attention to special event announcement anymore--the assumption is that I can't do them--I don't have a dragon, and don't have ueber armor and items.

    Unfortunately UO is becoming exclusionary.
     
  6. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    /This
    I had One char to do Easter on, and that was after a kind person on this board sent me the 'shortcut' step, and that's on my home shard.
    Don't know about Doom, only been there a total of a few mins.

    The virtues all Decay at the same rate, why can't they all be Earned at the same rate?
    AND with the same level of Difficulty - escorts don't get harder, why does Honor? Maybe escorts need to be harder at higher levels - ex. take me to slasher, or medusa
     
  7. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I am one of those players who only has a couple of hours a night. I personally have a great time in game and I don't have any artifacts at all. I also make all my own armor and bows.

    I definitely can't compete in PvP or anything, but I do PvM a lot and I have a pretty good guild who is happy to come to dungeons with me. Most all of them are Glorious GM this or that though and I can tell they are bored....

    Either way, I think that gratification comes to a person based on the goal they set. If their goal is to be a PvP Pwnr or an Artifact Hound, then they are going to be disappointed very quickly. If their goal is to be a GM crafter and make good enough equipment to head into a dungeon solo or supply a vendor then I think things are right on track.

    It appears that baby steps are the key in UO.

    P.S. - If anyone wants to do a fun PvP we could do a 'Nood' league! No armor, only weapons and jewelry. That might balance things out a bit :gee:
     
  8. KingHen

    KingHen Seasoned Veteran
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    Thank you

    You reminded me I need to go back Doom. Haven't been there in years.
     
  9. temu

    temu Lore Keeper
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    With peerless and doing champ spawns for replicas, I find UO to be like a huge skinner box, and I am a mouse.

    I hit the lever a few times and got a piece of cheese. Now I am compelled to bash that lever hundreds of time for the cheese that I know will be dispensed... if I just hit the lever one more time.. darn.. ok this next time for sure..........
     
  10. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    It is still early in the game with Honesty. I am sure people will figure it out.
    For instance why spend hours walking around places when these items seem to show up around the same locations & have a amount of time before they respawn... 3 hours + a variance maybe ?
     
  11. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    That's ridiculous. You pick up 3 items, then have to wait three or more hours and hope someone doesn't nab it before you?

    If they just up the spawn rate there would be no issue.
     
  12. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I haven't had a problem at all with Honesty, no I haven't maxed it out yet, but I can snag usually at least 3 pieces per "run" and on Sunday got 7 before heading back home to get them identified and turned in. General run area are the areas between Minoc and Vesper, Vesper and Cove (and all around Covetous Mountain), then over to the East Woods of Britain.

    As for the pumpkins, it may be my choice of plots, but they seem to spawn rather slowly even tending to the field properly (guessing that all the fields on a server may be connected in this manner?), but have managed to get several and am one mask away from completing the set in terms of design and facing, still looking for a GrimmOmen mask as well. I'd rather have a bit faster spawn of the killer pumpkins, but with a lower chance of getting the masks so that more people have a shot at one.

    To me it's not as much "Instant Gratification" as it is "Continuous Gratification". I'd like to do a little more than stand around the center of a field zoomed out hoping to catch the spawn before someone runs up on it by accident, so I'd rather fight more with less of a drop rate for the special item. Honesty doesn't bother me.

    The big one that bothers me right now is crab fishing... in theory you can get 5 crab/lobster in a trap, in practice, with help from Pinco's UI showing me how many are in a trap at any given time, I'm noticing that I'm losing around 50% of the traps used just waiting till they catch 3 crab/lobster... 4 or 5 seems to be an impossibility (at least at 105 fishing). Mainly the annoyance there again isn't Instant Gratification, but heavy expenditure in time and gold to lose a rather crazy number of tools without obtaining ANY benefit.

    The Halloween content to me is a little extra thing. I wasn't expecting anything epic, and it isn't. But it is a fun little diversion.
     
  13. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I do not think the Honesty Virtue is the best thing in this game upon which to base an argument that its players are too much seeking instant gratification.

    The spawn rate of the item appears to be too low relative to the points each one gives you. Lacking the Forensic Evaluation skill I am looking at forever or never before I can even make level one in this particular Virtue.

    Now keep in mind, I am a player who is patient, and, to my mind more importantly, measured, to the point that I get accused of loving everything the devs do, of being a cheerleader.

    I don't even hate the Halloween event, though I've stated repeatedly that it isn't the kind of event I'd have preferred. (And I'll add that it's rather thin for the time it's gonna be up.)

    And, on this one, on the Honesty Virtue? Near as I can tell the critics have it right. (The only qualification I have is that for all I know there might be so many people working the Virtue that the item spawn rate might be a lot greater than it appears to be. But I do not believe this to be the case.) And I do not think it is necessarily related to instant gratification to argue this point.

    -Galen's player
     
  14. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    The mere fact that someone searched for 3 hours on a small shard like Sonoma and found nothing proves that the spawn rate is much to low!!!

    I do not need instant gratification and normally I am a patient person. I have maintained the virtues I can (compassion, sacrifice, valor and honor) since the beginning. I do hag quests to maintain sacrifice for pete sake (well and I like Grizelda's stew). I walk escorts to their destinations. But this virtue makes me frustrated and angry! very angry.

    and what makes me even angrier is that the devs are not acknowledging that there is even an issue..they are not even giving us hope that it might get better..just a big wall of silence *frowns* Perhaps I am angry over this because for the first time in my Sosarian life of over 11 years, I don't feel like we (the players) matter to them anymore.
     
  15. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    How does it take 11 years to come to that? Should have hit you like a sack of bricks YEARS ago.

    :shots::shots:
     
  16. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    Because it is the first time in 11 years that I truly feel that way. *frowns*
     
  17. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    I just finished a quick run (Covetous -> Minoc -> Vesper -> Cove -> Britain), only found two Honesty items tonight, but that was in less than 30 minutes of looking. So far 7 has been my best run. It's been more of a pain finding the NPCs in Yew than finding the items for me.

    G.V.P had a good idea here which would probably help out the system as a whole though.
     
  18. Shantia

    Shantia Guest

    I agree with the OP in most respects to his post EXCEPT for the event comment. I am so bad and figuring out puzzles that when they did their easter dragon egg event this year (for baja) i was in near tears with frustration till a kind soul showed me where to get the egg. UO can have some vague hints and clues for quests imo. If i were to puzzle uo out on my own i'd probably never complete an event lol.
     
  19. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I have to agree with this to a point. The quests that do have specific details to them (those other than the 'take me here' quests) really are not fully fleshed out or described. I know we can come to Stratics to get some help, but really it should be a bit more detailed in game so we can be a little more self sufficient.
     
  20. heh!
    so we can be a little more self sufficient.

    :thumbsup: the game can't do that for ya ...
    The designers and the coders can't "create it" either ...
    Certainly ain't gonna "figure it" out on the forums.

    A) The game is a >time waster<
    Y'all asking for a more satisfying / efficient >time waster< ... :lol:

    B) What "could" fix y'all, achieve your goal if you will.
    Is becoming more clever ...
    more practiced in defining a problem and then parsing towards a "solution"
    aka knowing what don't "work". Edison: If I find 1000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed ...

    The "difference" twixt Edison and you all ...
    >HE WASN"T< wasting his time to begin with ...
    >Y'all ARE< ...
    there ain't no "beneficial discovery" at the games end point ( 1st off: doesn't have one. doh! )

    well ... maybe one "beneficial discovery" for the more clever individuals :

    UO is quite an efficient time waster ... as digital skinner boxes go
    IF a "puzzle" stumps you on the first pass ... always have the forums to go to for the pre-worked solution
    IF it hasn't been solved/proved broken ... there will be a willing group already working on it.
    *grins*
    VERY efficient how one >can be self sufficient< ...
    till one chooses not to be (flip to the index for the answer ... go to forums/cheat sites)

    besides ... one can always pretend: the next Pixel will be better ...
    just wasting time ... after all.

    :danceb:
     
  21. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Pft! Your point seems valid on the surface, but what you seem to be failing to realize is that the 1000 things that are wrong with the game have already been presented ad nauseum on the message boards.

    Now might be an excellent time to come up with the one or two solutions instead of #1001 issue that may only be an issue for you and your game.

    Y'all er really not bein' too helpful, ya hear? ;)
     
  22. vexyvixen

    vexyvixen Journeyman
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    That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I just love wasting my time on UO. Even if there are no events, quest, goodies, etc... UO is a wonderful thing!
     
  23. NOWHERE have I ever said that UO time wasting was wrong/sinful/criminal ...
    You (> of course <) May waste your time in what ever manner and "view" its product HOWEVER you choose
    it was fun, it was enjoyable ... can stretch it a bit and "learned something" in some small way as a "justification"
    Shoot! >I justify< my time wasted ingame because >I have earned some idle time< that I may spend as I may choose ...
    (Old guy with porch sitting rights + chair and drink service)

    AGAIN: doesn't matter, now does it?
    ALL IN ALL >the game IS a time waster<
    yes? very well ... carry on and faretheewell.

    No? :talktothehand: I ain't gonna waste my time on something THAT IGNORANT of reality.

    observe ned above:
    My point ( >the game IS a time waster< ) is Valid TO THE CORE ...
    that's WHY it "seems valid on the surface" <<< it IS, AND, all the way through and through ...
    at this point please also note: no contradictory argument/view/fact/datum is presented.

    Car on the side of the road, hood up, not running, sitting on four flats
    Say buddy, I says ... you need some help with those flats?
    Naw ... >I think the problem is with the engine< ... Everyone keeps saying flats
    and ain't really "helping" ME with what >I think< the problem is ...

    :danceb: want to play for extra "points"? What is the THREAD TITLE? :lol:
     
  24. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Actually, if I recall correctly your point was:

    heh!
    so we can be a little more self sufficient.

    the game can't do that for ya ...
    The designers and the coders can't "create it" either ...
    Certainly ain't gonna "figure it" out on the forums.

    A) The game is a >time waster<
    Y'all asking for a more satisfying / efficient >time waster< ...

    B) What "could" fix y'all, achieve your goal if you will.
    Is becoming more clever ...
    more practiced in defining a problem and then parsing towards a "solution"
    aka knowing what don't "work". Edison: If I find 1000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed ...

    The "difference" twixt Edison and you all ...
    >HE WASN"T< wasting his time to begin with ...
    >Y'all ARE< ...
    there ain't no "beneficial discovery" at the games end point ( 1st off: doesn't have one. doh! )

    well ... maybe one "beneficial discovery" for the more clever individuals :

    UO is quite an efficient time waster ... as digital skinner boxes go
    IF a "puzzle" stumps you on the first pass ... always have the forums to go to for the pre-worked solution
    IF it hasn't been solved/proved broken ... there will be a willing group already working on it.
    *grins*
    VERY efficient how one >can be self sufficient< ...
    till one chooses not to be (flip to the index for the answer ... go to forums/cheat sites)

    besides ... one can always pretend: the next Pixel will be better ...
    just wasting time ... after all.


    While you stated that the game was, as you call it, a time waster (some would call it paid entertainment. If I wanted to waste time, I would go take a nap) your actual point seems to be that it is futile to bother trying to create a self sufficient environment in game for the player. Basically, from what I can gather, you are saying that all the issues have already been discovered and presented and no one is willing to work on them, because they have no interest/desire. Continuing to try is a waste of time (like the game), because (as you put it) "it ain't the engine, it's the wheels".

    I dont' believe it and I don't agree. Perhaps the ideas were not well thought out or presented properly, but they are valid, many are good and all are worth discussing. Most of the issue people bring up with the game seem to be related to reducing the instant gratification factor of the game, not making it worse.

    We are discussing the facts as we see them and attempting to identify efficiencies. Isn't that what we have been presenting here? Ideas? I'm not an instant gratification type of person. I work for things and come up with strategies and solutions. That's the way I am and the reason I play/waste my time on this sort of game.

    So please, gratify this poor uneducated fool and tell me what's wrong with the wheels. I still think it's the engine. ;)
     
  25. well ... now your just trolling ...

    THE WHEELS ... ya see. which is the point ... IS/ARE the MOST obvious problem ...

    AND

    That you pay for this entertainment ... okay fine
    You are WASTING BOTH time and money honey ...


    and WHAT pray tell are you doing re: the thread topic?
    If I read it right ... it is about >gratification<
    and how some just can't seem to realize (and some posts are confirming)
    IF ya want it FASTER ... you want it More immediately ... <<< rates a dum duh DOH! in my book.
    Same could easily apply to "less effort" ... Easier to solve, more readily apparent how to get the pixel and move on ...

    QUICK gratification ... maybe THAT makes it quicker and easier to grasp ...
    *shrugs*
    doesn't matter AND ain't worth any further effort ...

    You'll still be sitting on the side of the road ...

    wondering why ...

    Burma Shaving with Occams Razor. :danceb:

    By the by ... what the hell do YOU think "self sufficient" MEANS?
    YOU >could< quite easily >right now< waste all the time you want
    >No assistance required< ... huh?
     
  26. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Now now Fayled..... let it go.... let it go.....

    Neds postive look and spin on the game should not be diminished.

    You may say the wheels, Ned may say the engine, I may think it's the transmission.

    Petra may think it's the door lock on the thread that needs locked :p

    :banana:
     
  27. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Occam's razor quote is cool. Used it earlier today under RL conditions.

    Fayled, I guess the issue that some have with the interpretation of reality you offered, one that I tend to agree with entirely, is with the choice of the word 'wasting'. It implies with a negative connotation that there is something better to do with one's time. I agree with that basic premise, but lots of people here on stratics hardly have anything better to do with their lives. UO is real for them. If honesty virtue is like walking a dog waiting for it to poop, it gets annoying when it doesn't want to poop. Particularly when it rains. Crazy analogy, I know. But then again, it is equally crazy to apply occam's razor to figuring out what might be the simplest explanation for a broken down car beside the road. Perhaps just out of gas? Or perhaps the owner is sleeping behind the wheel because he stayed up all night chasing honesty virtue points and needed to take a nap before driving onward.
     
  28. Ha!
    You realize of course ... by "getting it" in writing(your post) ...
    you just made allll >my efforts previous< ... NOT a waste of time ...
    [​IMG]
    which will likely make them HATE you ... o'well

    Great point about the dogs in the rain by the way ... naturally ... I see the "metaphorical image"
    within a Larger Frame ...
    I mean .. IF they manage to get outside to tend to another creatures needs ...

    It would NOT be to remiss of me to imagine a rather neurotic brace of dogs out there ...

    Hurry UP! hurry Up!! %_&*($^#^&%*%^& HURRY UP !! ya stinking mutt !!
    I maybe missing out on the New Pixel !!!

    Isn't there some documented instances of "gamers" making some real life situ "wait/hold"
    while they finished the current session?
    (I know there are instances of >death< being directly related ... sat there too long and died of exhaustion, killed over a uber piece ...)
    :lol:

    Sure ... >maybe< they ARE wasting time in some negative manner ...
    I'm just thinking
    Sane adults should be able to man up and admit it ...
    AT LEAST be able to accept an Honest and precise word for it ...

    Again: WASTE
    AGAIN: *shrugs* their choice & time & money TO WASTE ...
    still doesn't >make it< anything else ...

    *grins* reminds me of a repeatable
    Buddhist monk gets veggie hot dog from the stand (one with everything)
    pays with a $20 and waits ... and waits ... and finally asks
    Excuse me, vendorperson, may I have My change?
    Silly monk!
    change comes from within ... :gee:
     
  29. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    :popcorn: I know I'm not wasting my time...

    I'm holding siege.
     
  30. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    ROFL fayled. Thanks for taking the time tO write that post. It took me 3 voluntary minutes to read it before going to work and instilled me with laughter and hope. 3 minutes. The dog could wait. My daughter too. But now I have to go to the rest room, turn my computer off, and get something to drink. That is before I dry up entirely and start speaking Korean.
     
  31. Interesting direction this thread has taken....

    My dad used to say that all games are a waste of time. That is, that they are not productive. You are not generating anything noble, new, or economically viable by the time you spend playing games.

    I guess he's right in a sense. But not everything you do in life needs to be productive. The merit of "wasting time" here is to experience something that makes you happy, gives you an escape for a bit. Lets you assume a new guise in a world that's totally different...

    Of course I think my dad was talking more about board games and the like, and I remember telling him that I disagreed -- time spent playing board games starts and strengthens friendships.
     
  32. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Okay, I will admit that this game is a time killer. Some have extra time on thier hands. Child sleeping (you still have to stay home unless you're Casey Anthony), Dogs walked and fed; down time at work while waiting for your phase of a project to get up and running.... There are actually good reasons to kill time. If there is nothing that you can accomplish in a short period of time, then you may need to kill it. It's not a large enough block to utilize effectively, so you kill it. There's no way to waste it, because it is a waste in and of itself. You put it out of it's misery with a game. I've already done what's important, now it's me time! I suppose I could take up drinking or something, but playing an MMO a couple of hours a night is my vice.... Can't help it!

    Anyway, don't get so hostile. I'm trying to drag out your ideas and instead you are trying to argue your moral and philosophical position on a game. If there is any waste of time here, it is coming into a discussion with nothing to add pertaining to the subject matter at hand. I'm guilty of it too, so don't take it as an attack.

    You know, I'm killing time right now! I'm on a phone training at work and the specific block doesn't pertain to my job. I can't hang up because the conversation could turn to me at any time, but I can't really do anything else. So I'm killing time....

    Besides Fayled, having a conversation with you is NEVER a waste of time.

    Back to the topic at hand:

    I personally feel that in order to make the game a less instant gratification game and more of a time investment (which is really required to keep players active) the following things would be valuable:

    1. Home Stone: You can recall to your home city (no magic required) and you can use the Mark spell to mark a single spot on your stone (2 locations total) and recall to that spot. The marked spot can be changed at will with the spell, it's not static. Get rid of all runes/rune books. Make people use the moongates and their mounts.
    2. Remove Reduced Reagent Enhancements from Armor: Make players use the reagents and have to go hunt for them or buy them if they run out. Otherwise, just completely remove reagents from the game.
    3. Remove Equipment Repair Deeds - Get back to the good old days of a person hanging out and repairing for tips. Equipment repair deeds need to go in order for this to happen and for equipment to wear out. If you don't have the skill to fix it, you either find someone or you get new equipment.
    4. Restrict Insurance: Insurance needs to be limited to a single item. Starter equipment should be brought back into the game as blessed stuff (like your dagger or hatched or fishing pole) but other than that, you should be able to lose your stuff if you die. It's one of the only real tools that the game has to rotate out gear and keep things moving.
    5. Banks are in Major Cities only: Get rid of all the little banks and make them available only in the larger cities in Britannia (i.e. - Britain/Trinsic/Vesper/etc.). No more Luna!
    6. Remove Haven from the Game: Have players start out in a home city based on their major skill selections. None of the missions in Haven are so complex that they can't be provided in the larger world. I do understand that 'Old Haven' is the skill booster zone, but I really think that the extra 10 points you get from there are unnecessary.
    7. Only Young Characters Can Train up to 40.0 Skill - Everyone else needs to get skilled up the normal way (32.3-33.3 purchased and then work for it!).
    8. Remove Commodity Deeds - They allow the storage and transport of commodities to be too easy and have thus allowed the game to be flooded with unnecessary volumes of commodities. This is also a huge tool for gold sellers and cheats. This is messing up the economy!
    9. Remove BOD's - This is just a poor system and a better way to get those high level crafting tools and recipies out to players is through questing.
    10. Better/More Random Spawns - In order to keep things interesting and get people to search out what they need, the spawns need to be more random and spawn points need to rotate and move. I don't believe they do this at all, which means that people have created huge libraries of where treasure from maps spawns, where to find which monster reliably and what type of ore is located where (although I understand the ore thing has been fixed somewhat). This will also help with cheating a bit as it will be infinitely more difficult to program bots.
    11. Skill Advancement Slowed - Slow down things a bit. It should mean something when you get to Journeyman/Expert/Grand Master. Once a PC gets to Journeyman, I'd like to see the Siege rules for advancement go into effect for ALL Characters. Further, I'd like to see a quest be put in place that is required to be completed in order to advance to the next title. Make it a big deal again, not a 2-3 day grind. When it's easier to become a GM Tailer than it is to become a GM Beggar then there is a disconnect somewhere.
    Just my thoughts on how to curb the instant gratification direction of the game and make your time killing accomplishments mean something in game. I really believe that some or all of these changes will get people back into town and out into the world where they belong.

    As a side note, I think these should be implemented but not affect current items/skills/etc. Commodity deeds will get used and not replaced, overpowered equipment will eventually wear out, etc. No penalty to what you have, just no more coming.
     
  33. wow ... dude ...

    the "gratification" isn't a problem to be solved ... :lol:

    Itsa composite part of the games existence
    its why peeps play it ... their perceived rates of receipt of it ...
    "the reward" ipso facto ... the consequence of the actions during the time spent.
    chicken in the skinner box at the carnival gets a piece of corn
    UO player gets a pixel ...

    >Based on their conditioning<
    determines whether or not they "peck/click" again

    turn the "gratification off" ...
    and eventually they'll stop the "peck/click" cycle of "re-enforcement"
    ( starve to death waiting / get bored and walk away ... *ahem* )

    or

    you >could< give the chicken a chemically treated piece of corn
    that satisfies its hunger .... and it walks away from the switch ... "game over/end"
    you >could< give the Player a final title token pixel achievement Glorious Lord of all caps reached all quests played.
    and If HE starts all over again ...
    either we're talking about a short attention span OR a variation of OCD
    cause we ain't talking about "gratification received" >being enough< to accomplish once and move on
    now we're on to a tolerance counting game
    if not twice ... will a hundred times be TOO MUCH "stimulation" to begin again?


    So ...
    All you and the game are "doing" ... is trying to find some "balance" or "throttle" setting that won't be too little
    nor
    too much ...
    AND
    being attractive/seductive enough
    to draw ever increasing numbers IN ...
    NOT filling them up / satisfying them ... EVER
    :thumbsup: THAT is "game over/end" for the humans ...
    being satisfied ...
    had enough ...
    need something more interesting to FEEL that gratification again ...

    and THAT lets right back around to the old question posed by the old movie "War Games"

    Would you like to play a game? ... :danceb:

    Anyways ... the human brain is a feedback machine, and a solid broad description of the underlying fields can be found in the ....
    :scholar: Ah! Wired Issue 19.07 | July 2011 | The Mental Machine | Magazine | Wired.com.
     
  34. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I want people to be gratified, but I don't want it to be instant. It's the age old addage of "Teach a Man to Fish/Give Him a Fish". Right now there's a lot of fish around and no one needs to learn how to get more due to the surplus!

    In essense I'd like to make the act of increasing your skills enjoyable and time consuming (which is the point of the game anyway, I believe we have established that). In order for that to happen, skills need to be given purpose again, at low and mid ranges to keep early characters viable and keep players interested and motivated.

    Satisfaction received from working towards a goal and achieving it.

    All this is my personal opinion though. It's what I am feeling after playing and observing for a couple of months.
     
  35. except ...
    THAT adage was about >survival< of the man ...
    not an "efficient" way to waste time ...
    you DO know most already KNOW how to login(fish) right?







    heh! yeah
    well ... G'luck with that [​IMG] easy ... easy ... :danceb:
     
  36. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    One of the issues with Doom was the fact that it was a random process. People literally spent weeks not getting anything while others could spend an hour and get an item.

    There are also people who figured out ways to have their best chance. For a time, there were 2 people who would show up with 2 white wyverns at a certain time of day, spend about 20 minutes and leave with an artifact.

    All of these things make it frusterating for those who don't even care about getting an artifact because simply seeing these flaws, is a disappointment.

    So, you take all of these factors and the game is no longer any fun nor worth playing. Once the player is in this zone, the rest of the game becomes disappointing because you can reason other systems may be the same.

    It's kind of like inducing depression into a virtual world. One of the systems that helped to fix this problem was, making it so someone could earn the artifact. That means somebody works so much they will be paid for their effort.

    But there are other problems. Some of the arties suck. If you went Trick-Or-Treating and I gave you a rotten apple, would you come to my house the next year?

    Again, the system is creating a negative thought process. What it says is, you're very unlikely to get any type of reward at all and if you do, it will most likely be something you do not want.

    This is not gratification, this is irony. By making all the items good items or useful, you remove the negative possibility and you create encouragement.

    Now, we have to factor in balance. What makes a good item or a cool item or what makes a good item cool? With imbuing, you have to seek balance. So, you would adjust the game to balance the reward to be greater than that of what one can make. Why go to Doom for many hours, seeking something that is less than what you can make.

    So, imbuing has caused a necessity for change. All of the artifacts need to have something special that seperate them in some unique way.

    Sure they can keep alot of the ones we already have but I don't see the balance of the system. For me, anytime there is some type of positive change where they might add something that is better or unique, I don't understand the arguement of keeping things the same.

    You would think that everyone would have an idea of at least one thing they would like to see added to Doom.
     
  37. Mirt

    Mirt Certifiable
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    Zyon Rocker that was the best explanation that I have ever seen. I agree with you completely. The issue is that the artifacts have become useless and many times you feel you stand no chance. That tends to make you want to do something less. I don’t mind putting in the time but I do want a fair chance at it. I wish they would let you imbue artifacts that way they would be at least worth something. Of course I do realize that would then create a balance issue, but I think that is pretty much the nonstop dance that are MMO’s.
     
  38. wow ... I can't make out how he could be wronger ....

    You mean as long as the tricks are unknown ... it appears random (should be random all the time, not a menu, but it IS UO's RNG)
    Rewards for the bods are random ... unless you know the trick to force the reward you want ... then its just waiting to get the random drop required ...

    Yeah like THAT ... :lol:

    whua huh? are they "disappointed for something they don't want BECAUSE it is too randomly predictable? "

    No ... it is WHEN you look at the game that way THAT the game becomes "un fun" innocence and suspension of disbelief ... etc etc etc.

    still a guarantee OF eventual gratification ... no surprises just grind long enough and your "patience" will be rewarded ... :talktothehand: pfffft!

    yeah, >I would<
    but more to give than receive .... DOH! not "fun for you" maybe ... certainly MORE than IF I never returned again ... left the game .. do the math.

    NO! 'tisn't the system ... It IS >your assumptions< that create the depression, rather the depressing realization that once again a stupid game "BEAT" YOU AGAIN ...

    *AHEM* say WHAT ?? no down side / loss = Greater happy happy ???

    Well, IF one can't entertain themselves alone in their house ... maybe alone in doom >could work< ..
    maybe having a better GROUP of players to play with could help ... naw ... not likely .... they must be equally depressed too ... time to complain on the forums
    nothing to wear ... nothing to do ... mom won't tell me a new story ... life sucks

    Embuing was a response to requested enhanced change and now that the new has worn off need something newer again (and quickly too damnit! i paid for more gratification) ... MOM!?! thought of any new stories?

    :scholar: Yes! You sitting on the seat in a dunking tub ... 10k gets a box of rats to throw at you ...
    20k and you get rocks that might dump ya ...
     
  39. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    I'm not quoting anyone; the posts are getting way too long here! ;)

    From my perspective, there are too many artifacts in the game. They are not only too easy to get, they are placed in a predictable, mathematically calculable place in the game which allows them to be farmed by those who have the time and patience to crack the system. Worse is those who crack the system tend to post thier results, making things infinitely worse!

    Granted every game has these calculations and most have found ways around them (i.e.- grinding/time sinks) but I think the code should be improved to include a bit more randomization and also move the drop of the artifact in question to a different location every once in a while.

    Some think it's fun to grind the same dungeon over and over, it is comforting to know every nuance of your environment. I like the unknown. I like to explore and be suprised.
     
  40. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    Well I was trying to reply to the OP the best way that I could. These are not my personal views and you tend to direct things in a personal way.

    What happens is, I see something which I could not be wrong about and then I assess the situation by either seeing the same thing happen again or by asking people why they act the way they do.

    For example: Often in Doom, people would say, when someone got an artifact that they were disappointed that they had not. This would happen throughout the weeks with hundreds of people.

    So, you have to understand when you place it into the same perspective, we are not talking about an idea or someone's opinion, we're relating facts.

    So, what would your conclusion be? These are the points that I made. It's not anything else that would cause my own opinion to be challenged. I am creating conclusions from the facts, unless you can give a better conclusion, I would have to say, there is none.

    I'm looking inside an open box and I see hundreds of people who are angry and upset because they feel they have been treated unfairly. Then, the same people are telling you why they are unhappy because other people are getting things but they are not.

    This has nothing to do with my opinion or your opinion. This is something that is a fact. Now, we understand the cause and the affect and part of that affect is not only them being unhappy, is it? What else happens? They leave Doom disappointed. This has nothing to do with creating some imaginary fun in my head. These people are unhappy, so they leave the game. They don't go back to Doom. They find themselves happier playing Solitaire.

    Now, you can come up with your own conclusions but the facts do not change. Try an experiment. Go to Doom and then say in Chat, That you're going to begin dropping 1 million gold checks, people will begin to flock to Doom.

    The first person to get to Doom will pick up a check and tell somebody else that there really are million gp checks and that they should also come to Doom. This is induced happiness. What will happen now is people will begin to get excited and happy. This is not my opinion, these are facts based on possibilities.

    Now, if you want to challenge it, do it. What it shows is as an example, if people went to Doom and got something they wanted and liked, they would not only go but they would tell others to come along and in an MMO, that is the most important, fundamental rule that should be understood by developers.

    I really don't think that it's so much of an issue Ned that having to many or easily attained artifacts but rather that they are boring and used up. Just making them different would help bring people back to Doom but I would do even better and create some really awesome items and I would take all the negative BS out.
     
  41. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    There's a few problems that are general to UO over the long term that are tied into what you're talking about.

    1. Once the devs activate a "system" they hardly ever change it radically.
    2. Once the devs add items, they never change them (because this usually adds "rares" that are undesirable.)
    3. Players only hate to "work" when there is no perceived goal or result, or the result is less than anticipated because of the RNG.
    4. Players can be fooled into doing stupid things over and over for a shiny thing.
    5. Rares tend to drive most of the long term economy for players, thus we are geared towards a lottery mentality while playing and gathering.


    One of the systems they haven't changed is Artifacts. The problem with the system is that, originally, artifacts were rare AND powerful (or at least desirable for display or status.) Now with imbuing and other things, we are finding that players can craft things that are MUCH more powerful than some "artifacts". This is from #1 and #2 above. They don't want to change our use/perception of artifacts, but they are less desirable overall and thus in some cases become valueless, which then leads to perception of "wasted time". (I actually think they need to rework "artifacts" and make all of them valuable in some way, then drop the artifact status on some of the lesser/useless ones.)

    Anything you do in the game can be considered wasted time to external viewers, just as you sitting and reading is wasted time to a ball player, or throwing a football with kids might be wasted time to a hobby carpenter. The video and online games we play aren't wastes of time in and of themselves but parts of them might be considered wastes of time if we didn't feel our goals of entertainment weren't met.

    When I fight a bunch of creatures, I am not usually there to pick up an artifact. I honestly don't think that way. If I get one, I feel good, but I don't go to fight a halloween or event spawn JUST to get one. However, there are those out there who do , their goal is to get Item A or beat monster B.

    Luckily for us, multiple combinations of people types can play in the same world and mostly get what they want. However, because of the randomness of result to action and the unwillingness of the devs to make radical changes (how long did it take for them to decide to change how strength, hp, int, mana, dex, and stamina work?) people can get discouraged because they feel like they are being "dissed" by the game.

    Many folks look at receiving something or completing an event as a status change. They feel like the game gods are rewarding them for their "great playing". So when one person gets something (an artifact) but someone who worked just as hard or harder doesn't, they understandably feel slighted. This is tough to fix without resorting to the stupid action of giving everyone the same thing (one of the big problems US society is dealing with today, this incredibly inane concept of all winners, no losers.)

    I'd be curious over all though, why people seem to feel the need to complain about other people's time being wasted. Do you think they would somehow give their time to you?
     
  42. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    They wont... but the timelord will, if you guys still have any idea what the true story of Ultima is...

    I have been saying this for at least a year, and everyone snapped at me because I was critisizing many of its aspects including magincia LOTTO for PG-13 !

    Instant gratification, non respect of woman and lottery mentality is all part of one big ethical issue...
     
  43. Which is ... subjective perception ...

    Say you have the "power" to finally decide that there ain't nothing works to get a large percentage of those peeps all happy and dancing IN that box ...
    So ... ya call: Enough! and dump them all out .. because ... "Obviously" >the box< cannot provide the happiness and idle play thought possible.
    Ya toss them all out and send them on their way, "It ain't in here" ... you explain and they agree ... and you set the box out for rubbish recycle ...

    A kid comes along and appropriates the box ... and spends the next month in giggling play ... shares the box with friends and acquaintences ...
    becomes "quite the thang" for quite awhile ... Legends are written of that summer ...

    Was it you, the box, or the people that "failed"
    to get the fun
    OUT of the box?

    Which is ... subjective perception ...




    Burma Shave :danceb:

    *shakes the box*
    :popcorn:
     
  44. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    That's what I thought we were talking about but it's not my perception. It's an idea but it's not mine. It's kind of like and correct me if i'm wrong or way off base, it's kind of like Pit Fall and i'm suggesting we remove the pits and you're asking how can the game be Pit Fall? I don't know if i'm getting this or not.

    Let's say we add vines. Now we have people that are no longer falling into pits. This is my reasoning but not something that i'm making up through my own opinion.

    Another example: You have an elephant and you feed the elephant hay and everytime the elephant gets some hay, it becomes satisfied but you still need to feed it alot of hay, truck loads in fact. So, the logical thing might be to assume that there is no way to satisfy the elephant.

    What i'm saying or trying to understand is why not have peanuts. So, now you feed the elephant a peanut. This way you can constantly feed the elephant peanuts and if you're going to trust the elephant to put its' foot over your head, I would not suggest teasing it but rather a steady feed to keep it content.

    So, it almost seems like the idea is, that most people think it would be impossible to constantly award everyone all the time but that's not true. You just need to change the type of reward.

    So, peanuts to an elephant, although peanuts, keep it content.

    So, if you were to remove disappointment or negative actions, then it might be possible to replace them with re-inforced gratification.

    So, instead of just focusing on the artifact or the truck load of hay, create other systems that you can continually give out. Like, if somebody received a boom-a-rang in their pack maybe they could use it one time, which would bring them closer to the artifact. Other types of central systems, where teams are fed peanuts, perhaps, to add to some mechanism that might create some kind of help. So, each person would receive something that would contribute to the ultimate goal.

    So, now you have instant gratification but in small steps and the more of these steps you create, the more gratifiying the experience will be. So, rather than passing out empty bags, each bag will contain something.

    So, maybe having the negative might seem important but it's not, in theory and when you ask about time or what somebody gets out of something, how does anyone really know? It's like standing in a room with 10 doorways, no one knows what's behind any of the doors. By adding death behind one of the doors, does not necessarily create a better scenerio.

    You're still going to open the door and possibly go in a different direction than somebody else but you might choose the same direction as somebody else and end up in the same room. It doesn't change that room and nobody knows until they open a door and go. So, I would expect people to give the same time that you've given them. In that case, you're kind of like me and i'm you even though we're comfortable not believing it, we breathe the same air and we drink the same water. So, just as time affects you, it affects me.