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Instead of Archcure lets balance a spell that truly needs it

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Wither has become the bane of large scale PVP battles. The side who has the most players casting Wither almost always wins. A fight between two sides of 20+ players can be decided in mere seconds with a rush of Necromancers spamming Wither. The only way to combat Wither is to field more Withering players than the other team, which isn't a very balanced way of handling things.

    The data speaks for itself so here it is compared to its closest relatives.

    <u>Wither</u>
    Speed: 1.25 or 1.5 seconds (0.75 or 1 with 2 faster casting) [casting speed in dispute]
    Mana 23 (14 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: None
    Effect: 4 tile radius around caster
    Attack Area: 9x9 tiles
    Allowed in Guard Zone: Yes
    Damage Type: Cold damage (lower used resistance)
    Damage: 20 maximum damage at 120 Necromancy, 120 Spirit Speak, 15% SDI against 70 Cold Resistance

    <u>Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning</u>
    Speed: 2 seconds (1.5 with 2 faster casting)
    Mana: 40 (24 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: Slight (about 1/2 second)
    Effect: Hits target creature or tile
    Attack Area: 5x5 tiles
    Allowed in Guard Zone: No
    Damage Type: Meteor Swarm is Fire, Chain Lightning is Energy (both highly used resistances)
    Damage: Total damage is reduced by number of targets attacked. At 8 targets only does 6 damage to each that has 70 fire resistance (highest number of players we could gather to test). No matter the number of targets, Meteor Swarm never does better than Wither. At 1 target it is a waste to cast (25-27 damage but double mana), at two it comes close but it is roughly equal (25-27 damage but Wither is half Mana and casts quicker) , after 3 targets it does less damage (16-18).


    In a straight comparison Wither clearly has the edge in all categories. Plus when you combine Wraith Form which allows you to freely move through players and get back mana for all the damage you deal, it comes out miles ahead. If you have 10 mages cast Meteor Swarm that does 60 damage against 8 players. If you have 10 Necromancers cast Wither that does 1600 damage against 8 players, 200 to each player with quicker casting and for less mana! Plus Wither is target free, meaning no pesky "target can not be seen" mistargeting accidents, just press your key and hit everyone around you.

    Another tactic to close a distance quickly is to teleport right in the midst of your opponents and spam Wither. Your opponents are forced to try and get away quickly, blocking each other in panic. But not the Necromancer, they just run away freely because of Wraith form if they are in trouble.

    I just want to make sure everyone understands how far Wither can reach. A common defense for the spell is that the range is rather "limited" and can not be targetted like the 7th circle mage spells.

    [​IMG]

    The water tiles are the area Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning would hit. The water tiles and lava tiles is the area Wither will hit. That area does not seem very limited to me. In big battles today the outcome is not decided by the number of players, it is the number of witherers. You can fight with dozens of people only to be cut down by a handful of Witherers. Wither is a spell that does massive damage for little cost. Energy Bolt does a similar amount of damage, but only affects one target. Withering is like sending out wave after wave of Energy Bolts on everything in range. Imagine how unbalancing that would be, that is Wither.
     
  2. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Wither is a complete joke and ruins group PvP.

    It either needs to hit friend and foe alike, or have it's range reduced drastically.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Since when have issues been attened to first
    common practise for the last 5 years is to nerf what works and hide from the issues! sorry but the track record shows exactly this
     
  4. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    As long as it don't affect pvm I don't care.

    But if this ever gets nerfed, and it affects my pvm, I will flame you. You will be responsible. Faaalllllaaaaaame U.

    The only usefull spells for the most part in pvm are the forms and wither. Poison strike is usefull (awesome for grizzle).

    But seriously, consider pvm. Stop tryin to nerf stuff. It does get old.
     
  5. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Governor Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    I don't know about you, but I only PvM, and I am getting tired of getting withered from the edge of the screen by lich lords.

    Hell, I ran into a paragon that, due to server communication times, was withering me from over a screen and a half away. For purposes of what was being hit by the spell, it was treating me as beeing about 10-15 mounted running steps back from where I was when the effect actually HIT me.
     
  6. <blockquote><hr>

    Wither doesn't hit to the fire lol

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Next time, please try a little thing we like to call research before posting something as unbelievably false as your statement. Even I was able to see it was incorrect, and I'm rarely around it enough to know much about it. Since you failed to do so, I've done it for you:

    Creates a withering frost around the Caster, which deals Cold Damage to all valid targets in a radius of 5 tiles

    Q.E.D.
     
  7. I think wither should be limited to only apply one necro's wither at a time. If only one wither applies to a target in a given combat tick, you can't just have a group of necros stand in a choke point spamming and insta-kill people.

    Nerfing the damage of the spell would unnecessarily harm pvm. Necro's don't have a lot of pvm spells, but wither is one of their spells that does well in pvm.

    Also, you missed a couple key things about 7th circle magery spells.

    1. Meteor and chain lightning work with slayer spellbooks. They DO out damage wither in a pvm context.

    2. You mention how meteor and chain lightning are AE around target and wither is AE around casting, but you don't put a lot of emphasis on that. AE around target means you can precast. It also means you can use it from a distance without exposing yourself to some risk.

    I'm ok with meteor and chain lightning having their damage buffed a little, but that's the kind of thing that needs to be done very carefully. There is high potential to do a lot of damage to pvm for a small gain in pvp balance.
     
  8. <blockquote><hr>

    Wither has become the bane of large scale PVP battles. The side who has the most players casting Wither almost always wins. A fight between two sides of 20+ players can be decided in mere seconds with a rush of Necromancers spamming Wither. The only way to combat Wither is to field more Withering players than the other team, which isn't a very balanced way of handling things.

    The data speaks for itself so here it is compared to its closest relatives.

    <u>Wither</u>
    Speed: 1.5 seconds (1 with 2 faster casting)
    Mana 23 (14 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: None
    Effect: 4 tile radius around caster
    Attack Area: 9x9 tiles
    Damage Type: Cold damage (lower used resistance)
    Damage: 20 maximum damage at 120 Necromancy, 120 Spirit Speak, 15% SDI against 70 Cold Resistance

    <u>Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning</u>
    Speed: 2 seconds (1.5 with 2 faster casting)
    Mana: 40 (24 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: Slight (about 1/2 second)
    Effect: Hits target creature or tile
    Attack Area: 5x5 tiles
    Damage Type: Meteor Swarm is Fire, Chain Lightning is Energy (both highly used resistances)
    Damage: Total damage is reduced by number of targets attacked. At 8 targets only does 6 damage to each that has 70 fire resistance (highest number of players we could gather to test). No matter the number of targets, Meteor Swarm never does better than Wither. At 1 target it is a waste to cast (25-27 damage but double mana), at two it comes close but it is roughly equal (25-27 damage but Wither is half Mana and casts quicker) , after 3 targets it does less damage (16-18).


    In a straight comparison Wither clearly has the edge in all categories. Plus when you combine Wraith Form which allows you to freely move through players and get back mana for all the damage you deal, it comes out miles ahead. If you have 10 mages cast Meteor Swarm that does 60 damage against 8 players. If you have 10 Necromancers cast Wither that does 1600 damage against 8 players, 200 to each player with quicker casting and for less mana! Plus Wither is target free, meaning no pesky "target can not be seen" mistargeting accidents, just press your key and hit everyone around you.

    Another tactic to close a distance quickly is to teleport right in the midst of your opponents and spam Wither. Your opponents are forced to try and get away quickly, blocking each other in panic. But not the Necromancer, they just run away freely because of Wraith form if they are in trouble.

    I just want to make sure everyone understands how far Wither can reach. A common defense for the spell is that the range is rather "limited" and can not be targetted like the 7th circle mage spells.

    [​IMG]

    The water tiles are the area Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning would hit. The water tiles and lava tiles is the area Wither will hit. That area does not seem very limited to me. In big battles today the outcome is not decided by the number of players, it is the number of witherers. You can fight with dozens of people only to be cut down by a handful of Witherers. Wither is a spell that does massive damage for little cost. Energy Bolt does a similar amount of damage, but only affects one target. Withering is like sending out wave after wave of Energy Bolts on everything in range. Imagine how unbalancing that would be, that is Wither.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Excellent post, Sir.
    Wither is extremely unbalanced (as is Kerridwen as evidenced by his inane drivel) but that is another story.
     
  9. NB-Cats

    NB-Cats Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>


    Excellent post, Sir.
    Wither is extremely unbalanced (as is Kerridwen as evidenced by his inane drivel) but that is another story.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good to see you agree with your guildmate. I'd do the same!

    Let's take care of 60 dmg Greater Dragon fireballs before 15 dmg withers please.
     
  10. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    Excellent post, Sir.
    Wither is extremely unbalanced (as is Kerridwen as evidenced by his inane drivel) but that is another story.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good to see you agree with your guildmate. I'd do the same!

    Let's take care of 60 dmg Greater Dragon fireballs before 15 dmg withers please.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I do agree with this more, but I still want PvP to change to group fighting as opposed to group fielding.
     
  11. I dont play a pvp necro yet...But i dont think it needs to be fixed, people just need to adapt to it. use other things like essance of wind to mess them up, or stay out of its way
     
  12. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    I don't know about you, but I only PvM, and I am getting tired of getting withered from the edge of the screen by lich lords.

    Hell, I ran into a paragon that, due to server communication times, was withering me from over a screen and a half away. For purposes of what was being hit by the spell, it was treating me as beeing about 10-15 mounted running steps back from where I was when the effect actually HIT me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whoaa! I've never seen it that bad. You must have been laggin really badly. My dexxers own liche lords, and for a tamer, just use magery healing to stay out of range of the wither/target switch.
     
  13. sean_lo

    sean_lo Guest

    I agree with JC.

    Thank you for your explanations and research.
     
  14. <blockquote><hr>

    Wither has become the bane of large scale PVP battles. The side who has the most players casting Wither almost always wins. A fight between two sides of 20+ players can be decided in mere seconds with a rush of Necromancers spamming Wither. The only way to combat Wither is to field more Withering players than the other team, which isn't a very balanced way of handling things.

    The data speaks for itself so here it is compared to its closest relatives.

    <u>Wither</u>
    Speed: 1.5 seconds (1 with 2 faster casting)
    Mana 23 (14 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: None
    Effect: 4 tile radius around caster
    Attack Area: 9x9 tiles
    Allowed in Guard Zone: Yes
    Damage Type: Cold damage (lower used resistance)
    Damage: 20 maximum damage at 120 Necromancy, 120 Spirit Speak, 15% SDI against 70 Cold Resistance

    <u>Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning</u>
    Speed: 2 seconds (1.5 with 2 faster casting)
    Mana: 40 (24 with 40% LMC)
    Hit Delay: Slight (about 1/2 second)
    Effect: Hits target creature or tile
    Attack Area: 5x5 tiles
    Allowed in Guard Zone: No
    Damage Type: Meteor Swarm is Fire, Chain Lightning is Energy (both highly used resistances)
    Damage: Total damage is reduced by number of targets attacked. At 8 targets only does 6 damage to each that has 70 fire resistance (highest number of players we could gather to test). No matter the number of targets, Meteor Swarm never does better than Wither. At 1 target it is a waste to cast (25-27 damage but double mana), at two it comes close but it is roughly equal (25-27 damage but Wither is half Mana and casts quicker) , after 3 targets it does less damage (16-18).


    In a straight comparison Wither clearly has the edge in all categories. Plus when you combine Wraith Form which allows you to freely move through players and get back mana for all the damage you deal, it comes out miles ahead. If you have 10 mages cast Meteor Swarm that does 60 damage against 8 players. If you have 10 Necromancers cast Wither that does 1600 damage against 8 players, 200 to each player with quicker casting and for less mana! Plus Wither is target free, meaning no pesky "target can not be seen" mistargeting accidents, just press your key and hit everyone around you.

    Another tactic to close a distance quickly is to teleport right in the midst of your opponents and spam Wither. Your opponents are forced to try and get away quickly, blocking each other in panic. But not the Necromancer, they just run away freely because of Wraith form if they are in trouble.

    I just want to make sure everyone understands how far Wither can reach. A common defense for the spell is that the range is rather "limited" and can not be targetted like the 7th circle mage spells.

    [​IMG]

    The water tiles are the area Meteor Swarm/Chain Lightning would hit. The water tiles and lava tiles is the area Wither will hit. That area does not seem very limited to me. In big battles today the outcome is not decided by the number of players, it is the number of witherers. You can fight with dozens of people only to be cut down by a handful of Witherers. Wither is a spell that does massive damage for little cost. Energy Bolt does a similar amount of damage, but only affects one target. Withering is like sending out wave after wave of Energy Bolts on everything in range. Imagine how unbalancing that would be, that is Wither.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    it's really to bad that you use the max that people can get with stuff such as skill levels and suit levels.

    try doing that for the average player that has maybe GM (100.0) in the skills ( no bonus's) and a plain jane all 100% lrc suit ... you can even throw in the suit is all 70's resist's.. get rid of all your BONUS'S and then caculate the same thing. i bet it is ALOT different and more the way it was intended to be.

    can you beat anyone without being 'uber' ?
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    it's really to bad that you use the max that people can get with stuff such as skill levels and suit levels.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    That is the average. Having legendary (120) skills is standard in PVP.

    Here are some numbers I pulled of 17 players we fought at a Harrower recently. These are the 3 skills that showed up on UO.com

    Legendary - 42 skills
    Elder - 9 skills
    Grandmaster - 2 skills (one being animal lore)
     
  16. aos has been out for 5+ years, why do you think these players that play to compete at the highest level would be playing in mediocre suits? You are right in the sense that there shouldn't be item properties, scrap HCI,DCI,LMC,MR,HPI,blahblahblah, and then we will be getting somewhere. But fights would still be about choke points without a game mechanic change. Friendly fire did not used to exist.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Instead of nerfing the spell what should be done is adjusting what it does vs just players. IMHO necro needs to be looked at with all the temp nerfs since AOS necro is untouched. Wither should be like holylight.
     
  18. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    Sure lets nerf wither np , then add a rezz spell to necro or SS , full control of all summons (all guard/all kill/all follow) , a new direct dmg spell fire based , all forms can be mounted and I'm cool np
     
  19. NB-Cats

    NB-Cats Lore Master
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    Somehow I just feel like players expect 20 archers to rival 20 scribe mages to rival 20 necros to rival 20 tamers...

    It's just not going to happen.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have stumbled across some startling information. During Publish 24 it states:
    <blockquote><hr>

    Increased the spell delay of Wither to 1.25 seconds.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    So Wither might actually cast 0.25 seconds faster than we all think. This means you might be able to cast Wither every 0.75 seconds with 2 Faster Casting. However, it is odd that is says "increased" when the casting time was 1.5 seconds to begin with. This will have to be investigated.
     
  21. NB-Cats

    NB-Cats Lore Master
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    Greater Dragons are a much bigger concern =).

    Nerf wither all you want after you get rid of those 71 damage fireballs.
     
  22. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    If your truly having trouble with Wraith based wither attacks you do have a simple choice.

    Use your knogn and try a MISCHIEF MAKER against them. It out ranges them and in wraith or vamp form works like a slayer. With a good archer you'll knock one out in 2-3 hits. Or 3.75 seconds the time it takes to cast wither 1.5 times!

    If we stop overlooking the past devs balances and use them we shouldn't have a problem!
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Many posts were removed due to one of two reasons.

    1) They posted screen shots or other information that displayed how to reproduce an exploit.

    2) They were a personal attack or just down right rude in nature and not respective at all.


    If your post is missing and you are sure you did not violate any of the Rules of Conduct, please PM me and I'll be happy to locate your missing post for you to repost. There were just far too many posts caught up in the chain of removed posts to PM each individual user. My appologies.

    Please refrain from posting anything thing that would allow another user to reproduce an exploit or other illegal activity. Instead, use EA's bug reporting contact methods to report those exploits or illegal activities.

    http://support.uo.com/contact_info.html
    <blockquote><hr>

    BUG AND EXPLOIT REPORTS
    You can use the feedback forms here to submit bugs. Bug reports can also be mailed to [email protected], along with all important information, such as the time, date and shard of the occurrence, the steps that caused the bug, and whether or not it was repeatable. Bugs found on a test center should be sent to [email protected] with the same information.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Also, there is a Sticky now available: Arch Cure change will be reverted by Leurocian.
     
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