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Insurance, Magic, Change and I'm Stupid

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RavenWinterHawk, Oct 28, 2011.

  1. I get insurance. You apply it. You die. You re-equip immediatley. You have to keep gold in your bank or you don't re-insure.

    Simple easy... yet silly with respect to game. Everything is might and magic. Where does insurance really come in? It doesn't - it was a bad solution to a problem that didn't really exist. It was designed so people wouldn't lose their stuff. (I thought trammel solved that) It candied down the game. I'm fine with not losing your stuff so send it to their bank box. But letting it sit on a corpse to die, and re-equip and fight again in 30 seconds is a mistake.

    What has it done. Die. Click. Fight. No consequence. No risk. No penalty to dieing.

    NO IM NOT SAYING lose all your crap. Spare me the "well dont insure your stuff then if you want risk"... garbage.

    Create a Charm blessing system. (BLESS DEEDS are forever) A blessing/charm system made of magic. Perhaps an alchemists potion. Ingredients. Monster drops. Imbuing charges. Something creative.

    The items you wish to 'insurance' get enchanted by a limited Charm Blessing.

    The Charm is applied to the items. Their can be a gold cost too. Why not make gold an ingredient. 5000 coins smelted and mixed with the alchemist potion based on value of insured/charmed item. Just use the old insurance table.

    I don't care about the history or design of charming. But when you die, the Charmed items and transported back to your bank box, like the magic in a bag of sending. You have to return to the bank and re-equip. Your Charm Spell or Charm Blessing magically sends you items to a safe location. Sorry but you died, you got to keep your stuff cause you charmed it, now you have to spend time going to get it because you died. Don't die and you won't be inconvienced.

    My point is to involve other players in the creation of the Charming potion. Insurance involves nothing and noone.

    My point is to have a consequence to dieing. You have to go get your crap.

    My point is to not make it an endless process. Maybe each Charming has 10 uses then you have to reapply the spell or potion or whatever.

    I know... we all want ease and simplicity. But I figure I can take the heat of being called stupid or this is stupid and told to run around with insurance off.

    Or if you don't like the idea.

    Devs, how about just having the insured stuff go to the bank box in a nice pouch. Break the die, click, fight non-consequence. Staying alive should have its value in events and game play. Death is a penalty. Knowing how to live and stay alive is the reward to riches in the realm.

    Please let us die with dignity.
     
  2. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    On the one hand we show you we want you to venture out into dungeons as a new player.

    On the other hand we frustrate you by either losing your gear if you die, or make you go back to town and start over.

    I'm not saying your are wrong, clearly reintroducing a cursed property is at least a partial incentive either not to die, or to stash that gear at the bank before proceeding. Remember you cant B-O-S cursed items.
     
  3. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    You idea will solve nothing. Nowadays everyone has his very own alchymist. All you do is forcing players to do a couple more clicks to keep their stuff. It will not add any player interaction. You just annoy the casual players.
     
  4. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Raven I like the premise of what you are trying to achieve with this suggestion but you are in the middle of a peerless fight (meli for instance) you die and you have no items....You leave and you cant go back...

    Yeah yeah i know most people never die at meli these days. Ok slasher of veils - you die and you have to rez and run all the way out of the dungeon and to a bank before running all the way back in - only to get there and the slasher you were on is dead...
     
  5. Adora

    Adora Guest


    I absolutely love this idea. Signed!
     
  6. My thought is that monsters are given more and more hitpoints because the game has been so simplified that you can literally stand and pound, die, rez, stand and pound. The only choice is more monster hit points.

    Maybe give death a bit of a more consequence, take the players out for a few. The ones the stay alive fight monsters that have a lower number of hitpoints. That is lower the Slasher of Veil points. Make the dead runaway for a bit.

    PvP, your right back in.

    Maybe with removing players from the field for a bit. You give the ones the stay alive greater chance to get looting rights or win a PvP battle.

    The main change is sending the stuff back to you magic bank pouch.
     
  7. I think it is that mentality that the casual player needs everything is what ruins aspects of the game.

    If you are the casual that death is such annoyance don't play. Part of the game is keeping your peep alive.

    Your forcing me to use gold right now to insure. I have to hunt gold to insure. Might as well make the clicks more game theme focused. Right?

    I might not increase game play action, but it will give players things do to make some gold.
     
  8. Not a perfect idea. But something should favor the chap that stays alive in PvP, PvM or Mobs. Why should the skilled get a greater chance and reward and victory then the dead guy X5.

    Or actually how about this change. When you get killed all your damage to a monster is removed? Is it that way now, I don't know. Just a side thought.

    I am for the living. If you stay alive you should get rewarded. If you die. Stop bringing weak characters to an Noble fight. Hit Jhelom pits.
     
  9. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    But I remember dying within five minutes of, my first log in and pulling a "what the hell?! That was a rabbit!" That character got deleted and I started over on a new shard.

    Starting gear has improved, and we should see a new introduction that will thwart that kind of happening. We have bless deeds now as well. So I'm really not sure what the point is. More money sinks is good. Seems like I remember hearing a gold increase was in store somewhere along the way as well.
     
  10. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    I like this, maybe an incremental luck increase by mob killed that resets when you die. *shrugs* Its not a bad idea, just one that needs more thought and a promise for fulfillment. Give me a reason to want to exercise a risk vs reward mentality.
     
  11. pgib

    pgib Guest

    I agree with Kas Althume: the system will just add more walking.

    If you want to keep out of the game players that happens to die i think the only system would be to zero all the skills and caps after death (and remove soulstones).

    I can't see a reason why that should be done but could be a very fast way to move the entire player base to some other game.
     
  12. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    This idea is not good, since you can die for many reason, and the top one who destroy this idea are: Crash and Lag.
    Also certains area like stygian dragon, medusa, shimmering effusion or every other peerless are not made to let you in and out.

    Surely your idea is based on PVP experience, and probably should be enabled only if you have been killed by a player.
    But of course, in PVP there are factions with 20 minutes of skill loss :p
     
  13. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    I agree with Raven about the mentality that we all need everything to play properly, or you must have a sampire so you can kill everything.

    Viquire I remember my first few minutes in game back at UO:Ren friends of mine suddenly said in game "PK's" and I immediately died. Only I found out a few minutes later they let me die to a bloody corpser or reaper. A memory I love because I had no idea about anything in the game then.

    Actually I agree with this, If I am attacking a dark father in doom. Or slasher I should have my "points" lowered by a % or reset to 0. So my chance at an artie is lower than it would have been had I stayed alive. Rewards should favour those who dont die at all compared to those that die.
    It gives an incentive for a player to learn survival - New legendary skill right there Kayne - The Legendary Survivalist. (as opposed to my current Kayne - The Legendary Runner)

    I agree these new mobs all have stupid hit points and take an age to down and frankly are not much fun to do because boredom sets in pretty fast. Not sure whether your idea would change that
     
  14. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    I agree with all of this. Like I said its not a bad idea, but it needs some refining and a purpose.
     
  15. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    I've always said that in UO my most fun has come when I've gone somewhere random and died a handful of times - I may not lose much other than insurance gold but its still fun. Remember a couple years back before I had completed my char and long before imbuing a friend and I went to the outisde area of sanctuary and died countless times. But we both had a blast.

    So much so my motto is - its not fun unless I die a few times
     
  16. I think this...

    If you can dodge a wrench then you can take a fireball.


    If you can't dodge the wrench and your so dependant on insurance maybe you dont belong with the big boys.


    How about this for dark fathers or some distant tomb of a mob.

    So you die. Stuff goes to your bank box. For 100,000 gold yes 100k. You can purchase a stone of reverse retrieval. You can use it 1x an hour. It will suck all the things back to you that were sent to your bank box.

    It cost you 100k a pop. Hey your the one that died. And it costs another charm charge on your items to go from bank to player.

    There you go. Now there is cost, a gold sink, and the guy that survives isn't devalued.
     
  17. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    This time I disagree. Sure there are a lot of billionaires in UO but some of us barely have a million at a time. Sure I could go grind in painted caves or some similar place but I get bored with that after a short while.
     
  18. Hey I just found a Rose owned by Adora or Adoria a few weeks ago. My memory is poor. Do your chactures run by the same name. It was on atlantic.

    Your welcome to it if its a match. Free of charge. Just keep agreeing with my posts.:)
     
  19. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    lol. Flattery, and bribery, will take you places. ;)
     
  20. A little bit of the game is to survive. I sort of feel ill prepared players take on the big things before they are ready. Because they can just die and get their junk on.

    Maybe insurance allows a player to go places they haven't the skill to hang in.
     
  21. Hehe. What good is all the gold in the realm. If I can't bribe my ideas to fruition?

    Very cool name by the why. I can tell your a creative soul. rolleyes:
     
  22. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Sometimes its not a bad thing to do where you shouldn't. While I still carried my young tag I was at the ratman champ in Ilsh. Sure I died and got whisked away to town and had to run back but I learnt very quickly.

    In a group its helpful to be taken to places above your level so you can learn how its done for when you are ready.
     
  23. nynyve

    nynyve Guest

    As a game, UO should cater to a variety of play styles. Some of us are more risk averse than others (that includes me). I have spent several years and many millions of gold acquiring good armor and weapons--and worked hard for them. Some of them were purchased at rares fests on other shards, and would be extremely difficult to replace.

    One of my characters died twice this week in 5 minutes and had no opportunity to recover her weapons and armor. Insurance was a godsend.

    If you don't like insurance, don't use it. Or turn insurance on on only some of your stuff.

    UO is not a simulation of reality. It should however, allow people to play to the risk level they are comfortable with.
     
  24. I figured there would be a dont use it comment.

    Doesnt say you dont get insurance. Just says you have to go get it.
     
  25. tuuvaak

    tuuvaak Guest

    RTLFC

    i'm old skewl and such so i love ideas that make the game frustrating, scary and hard. its in my blood. personally, id love to see perma red stat loss return along with the complete removal of insurance in felucca. that would rule, and it would rule hard. statloss separated men from boys, and even roving gank squads could suffer perma statloss from an unlucky disconnect near a mongbat.

    but thats what made it fun! and with skills as easy as they are now to raise, statloss wouldn't be as big of a deal. ESPECIALLY if you could buy your way out of it instantly with gold from an NPC. say, 50m flat rate? hey a gold sink woo!

    champ spawns would probably see some issues. maybe incorporate them into guild wars somehow ie. no blues near the altar, only chars orange to one another. oh well who cares, its never gonna happen. fun to dream though :D

    wow i hijacked that bad time. sorry!
     
  26. Readydood

    Readydood Guest

    I can't help but notice that even though the OP is expecting to be called stupid, no one has taken advantage of this yet....

    Raven, you're stupid. NOT because I do not agree with your idea, but because it is totalitarian. There is enough stuff in this game that caters to only the "survival of the uberest". You're idea is "if you're not top tier, then **** outta here".

    I fail to see where something like this would do anything other then frustrate people. And no, dieing and having consequence is not the same as frustration.

    Remember long ago in the early UO days... the video that would play when you booted up the game. Mondain in his castle moving his hands around the crystal ball? that foreboding and wise sounding announcer giving you the low down? I remember towards the end of the video he said something along the lines of "sosaria, your home, where you are born, live, and die". You're supposed to die! It's ok to die! I think the god moder characters already get just about enough reward. It's ok if a shred of that should fall to some brave warrior who is outmatched but optimistic.

    my personal motto... if you're not dieing, you aren't trying.
    and no I am not Rhiimiis.
     
  27. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Just my thoughts, but I think Insurance and Bless Deeds were a couple of the worst things to ever hit this game.

    Everyone is so dependent on their nifty equipment that they barely care about the character inside of the suit of crap!

    This is an item based game an everyone wants to keep their junk instead of working for more if they lose it.

    A solution to the OP's issue would be to make insurance scale with the value of the item insured. You can insure a normal suit of leather for 600GP, but if you want to insure something of a Greater Artifact level, it would be 10-15k to insure, maybe more.

    Bless Deeds should not even exist. The system on Siege is good and could be implemented elsewhere.
     
  28. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Not to the scale of the cost you are talking about but they already did this. Crap items insure for less and the best ones insure for more
     
  29. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    The scale needs to be more steep! No one loses anything in the game anymore. Beside, if you can afford insurance, you can afford to buy bless deeds instead.
     
  30. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    I can't afford a bless deed :(
     
  31. Thanks for calling me stupid but I think you are supporting my point.
     
  32. nynyve

    nynyve Guest

    Not true. As someone who started rpgs in the pen & paper days, I can tell you that players have always been attached to their characters' stuff. I still smile fondly when I think of the lovely magic items I got on my first adventure...that sword rocked... Believe me I have played rpgs for 35 years; for many players their possessions define their characters. How they got them is a matter of song, story, and legend. That stuff represents effort and hard work. And some of the fiendishly ingenious things we did with our stuff to defeat monsters and get yet more stuff...*sigh*

    As one player commented when the group was confronted by an ueber vampire:

    "Don't hurt the plate."
     
  33. Shiznit Bo'Bourbon

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    The idea of permanently losing items upon death is an anachronism that needs to be stamped out of UO entirely. You guys sound like oldschool Everquest players crying that WoW needs massive XP loss on death. Ideas that nobody but a few veteran forum grognards would possibly want.
     
  34. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Nope, sorry. The introduction of these items with all this permanence is what is ruining the game and turning it into WoW and Everquest. Before it was all about the skills. Now it's all about the items and if you lose an item, suddenly your character is at a huge disadvantage. It is the antithesis of what the game was originally designed for: Role Playing.
     
  35. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Thank god you're not in charge of anything.
     
  36. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    THIS.
     
  37. pgib

    pgib Guest

    This is a myth. In '99 to kill a dragon with my macefighter i had to wear a valorite platemail suite and use an enchanted weapon and i had to wear a enchanted leather suite and an enchanted bow to kill spellcasters with my archer. And you couldn't craft those, so it was even more item based than now.
     
  38. over complicated idea that will not serve any beneficial purpose. just sounds like someone who is sitting on a bunch of bless deeds trying to get 'remove insurance' ideas passed so their stock becomes more valuable.

    when everyone is able to get the same items, the game becomes skill vs skill. if two players fighting with the exact same items, stats, and template, how is it item vs item? the items just make fights last longer, and add more variables.

    on the other hand, if you make it so a player can lose their items, it will become item vs item or the player will be forced to replace the good items. remember when runics came out (publish 14) before insurance went in (publish 17)? remember the factioners running around with faction blessed valorite runic weapons? basically, if you had a crafter in factions, and you choose to use silver to craft a 'faction version' of any item, including runics, it would be 'faction blessed' and you would not lose it upon death for 30 days. this was BEFORE insurance. anyone not in factions would be placed at a significant disadvantage because they would have to join factions and go through the process of getting one of these made (it also created a high incentive to join factions). back then, whichever mage was sitting at 2/6 casting was the hardest to beat. (1/3 rings were a bit harder to get without imbuing) that's when it was item vs item. now, everyone has a pretty equal chance to get the same suit.

    i'm fairly sure UO lost most of it's player base during the publish 14-17 changes. so i don't know that messing with this system AGAIN, would have such a great effect for uo's future.

    you want a gold sink? increase insurance costs. they've been basically untouched since they started. when insurance came out, 1 mil gold was selling for $25 and now it's 50 cents per mil. shouldn't insurance cost be adjusted with the current uo economy?
     
  39. Maybe if insurance rates were increased based on account age or hours logged per week... Un-nerf the costs of insurance for older players, but allow newer or part time players the benefits of insurance without getting slammed for half their gold when they die

    You could also tie insurance costs into the honesty virtue

    Maybe if the insured items were not sent to the bank, but didnt show up in your pack right away. They'd show up after 1-5 minutes (random). That way, you wouldn't have to run out of Doom or a Peerless area, but were still prevented from jumping right back into the fray. That might make hiding a useful skill to mix into a template that wouldn't normally have it

    What about making items that have above a certain imbuing weight fall to the corpse (and un-blessable), but not lootable by players or monsters, and maybe extend body decay time a little. Then you'd have the challenge of getting to your body after rez. If it's that way for everything above a certain power, then everyone would have the same handicap when using high powered stuff. But if you roll with some good, but not great stuff, you can insure on the cheap. That way, when you're going out in your nice stuff, you'll tend to be more careful or roll with backup, but if you're just going to go gang up on Navrey or a Champ, you throw on some decent stuff
     
  40. Ned888

    Ned888 Seasoned Veteran

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    Nobody said it was supposed to be easy... BUT Dragons were not meant to be solo'd and a group with middling equipment could take one down, especially if there were a couple of mages involved.

    Archers never needed magic bows to kill mages. Of course I quit in what, late 98, early 99 so I wouldn't know if something was implemented at a later time.
     
  41. pgib

    pgib Guest

    Lich lords, demons and balrons were the spellcasters i was talking about. Even though back then npc mages were not to be underestimated too (and they had the wondrous colored sandals).
     
  42. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    i too really hate it when i kill someone in a champ spawn and they somehow run off screen to a stealther hiding witch probably is a 2nd account and get ressed up and re-equip with whatever that 2nd account char is holding and run right back at me at full power in less then a minute.. but..

    making changes to insurance is not a smart idea..

    many people dont pvp fight.. and it sucks when you have to run out and start all over every time you die..

    and what happens if you die somewhere that is a no recall area?


    i vote NO..

    just make your own 2nd account with a stealther and put spirit speak, tracking and detect hidden on it and find his resurrector and then kill them both.
     
  43. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
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    This idea sucks. What's the point of making it more frustrating? That doesn't make a death meaningful...

    UO is about dying and resurrecting...
    There is no such thing as threat, tanks or healers...
    There's just a toon with 100-150 hitpoints and some resists...

    If you want to have some meaningful consequences to death, you would have to redesign UO completely. Because people would want to have some room to correct an error and not die instantly to a unlucky combo of a mob or something similar.

    Tell me, you're doing prism of light without dying... keys & peerless... In UO monsters can and will target you without LoS. Don't know, how often I died when entereing the hydra & serpent room there, just because everyone and their grandmother have already targeted me...

    It simply doesn't work, because UO is a game, where you die often...
     
  44. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Yeah, i seem to remember my viking sword working pretty well for years....bizarre that someone would think of old UO as MORE item based than now, then if you lost everything you could hit town, find the nearest smith, and be up and running in minutes no issue, these days I need to sit down a few hours in excel first, so monsters dont one hit kill me and my suit can actually stand in pvp....

    I don't remember in 98 having to worry about making sure my suit hits 70 in each resist, has at least 45 hci and dci, preferrably 30+lmc, oh and try to cap damage increase around 100....and get at least 30ssi on the weapon....ah and can't forget the 190 stam and 150 hp (don't put that on your suit and you're a weaker dexxer than half the mages out there!) And the numerous other stats that are pretty much required to compete these days. (oh, you could try going out in a cheap GM crafted suit, but even the best of players will end up face down fairly quickly like that....unless you're doing something really cheap like stealth tamer w/ dread or suicide alchemist)
     
  45. Readydood

    Readydood Guest

    well put! yes! *nods* *nods* *nods*

    it's like you need a college education in UOsuiting.

    you lost all your stuff in the early days, you already had 5 gm leather suits and a bag full of gm/force/power/vanq sitting in the bank waiting for that situation. if you were in need of some quick things, you just ran over to the smiths and there were at least a few players that taking orders. only took a few minutes to get a couple more gm weaps and repairs made. nothing was uber bling, so you had no worries of your gear being stolen IF you handed it over for repair. all the smiths ranged from familiar faces to well known, so you knew who you were dealing with before you even started trading.

    Couple the suit stuff with the resource items that go into playing now a days. when you re-equipped in prior times you didn't need to grab several types of bandages, gcures, gheals, refreshes, enchanted apples, conflags, trapped boxes.. etc etc.
     
  46. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Impossible to disagree with either of these comments. I wasn't here back in the brit forge days but I did play at UO:Ren. I hate that its always a battle to decide what stats the suit needs and what %'s its properties add up to. What intensity weight its got. How things affect my template, or indeed how the template dictates what the suit needs.

    I don't mind picking up a sword and thinking "ooh if i enhance this with bronze I'll get more fire elemental damage" or "ooh if I make this horned leather I will get better resists" I do mind having to go into excel and decide all the variables and how they calculate
     
  47. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    There would be no carrot without the stick. In the old days it was enough just to be gathering gold. At rare times you would find some cool item. The key to the old days also is thing broke. Problem with today is nothing really wears out in a timely matter. The New Shame has some of the right direction in it.

    Side thought. Should be something in the left side of the screen showing if the speaker has an active account. Those that have not logged in for a few years or a decade speaking out the side of their arse would make more sense. Someone that has been playing 6 months voice has more weight then someone with a few 1000 post and not had an active account in years.
     
  48. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    I know it wasnt at me specifically Warpig but being a reporter you can be sure I am active in game as well as here. However lots of us have been active at different times in the games history.
     
  49. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Just a way to sort the Trolls from the Clueless Classic drummers.
     
  50. tuuvaak

    tuuvaak Guest

    whats that? i think i remember killing them completely nude except a wizard hat on horseback w nothing but blade spirits. my dexer could kill them in storebought plate and a force or better war axe if i had a chaos shield and parry.

    anywho the only thing i could see actually going into the game would be realistic, expensive insurance costs. that'd be fine actually. we can't turn back the clock. the game is what it is now. just like with all MMOs, the ultra leet and the casual uncle nubsauce will always be a great distance apart. you can't bridge that gap by cheesing gameplay, and you can't widen it further with too much arbitrary penalty BS.

    if you're in the basement with 3 monitors and a library of macros you're always going to smack down my uncle terry who only logs on thirty seconds a week after he gets back from the bar and spells guards 'gaurds.' no amount of insurance magical fairy farts or rechargeable statloss wands are going to change that. once a game like UO goes item-heavy, thats it. its a min maxers game, and you can't play it at a high level without min maxing.

    still though, i'd love to see statloss again ;)