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Interesting Article about Abandoned Cities

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ludes, Apr 25, 2014.

  1. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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  2. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Well our problem is abandoned worlds/shards...but there is still truth to be found.

    Before Luna, most cities had their benefits. Minoc was clearly a mining town, Vesper a fishing port, Jhelom a place to train skills and kill escorts/nobles :p, Moonglow had some of the best vendor spots and you'd buy reagents there, Brit had a good amount of smiths and the largest community bank scene for trades, Delucia had a good amount of smiths for awhile as well with its open forge, a place for tamers of all levels in general (those bulls), tailors, kind of the closest thing to Luna in terms of sheer resources (even has a little pond where we used to drop boats before we all could afford houses back then), Buc's Den for murdering lol, Occlo for being an alpha/beta/oldie who was cool ;P...k I'm running out of steam now.
     
  3. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Good article.

    G.v.P is correct in his assessment. There is a very good parallel in UO, towns being abandoned because there is no reason to go to them any more. We saw a huge shift in the population away from cities when people could start crafting in their homes. Want a blacksmith - set up a forge in your house. It is very convenient to craft in y, but emptied the towns in UO.

    So - how do you make the towns attractive to players? The New Magincia vendors didn't work. Governorships and Trade Deals isn't -working. Factions is a bust. So what -Weekly players markets? Expanding towns or renting apartments in town? Town centered quests? There is no obvious answer.
     
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  4. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
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    You can't compare WoW and UO. They are two very different games. The issue of abandoned cities in WoW stems from the fact that the towns act as adventure hubs for the current expansion. So historically speaking, in Ciassic WoW, on the Alliance Side the most packed cities were Ironforge [Because it was closest physically to Molten Core and Blackwing Lair] and Stormwind, because it was the Alliance capital with all important services based in the town, and SW is just a short flight away from Ironforge or a subway ride. For Horde once again, it was Orgrimmar because Org is so well centered in the world everything is near it. But even back then in the classic game Darnassus, Thunder Bluff and Undercity were not used because of how out of the way they were.

    Then came Burning Crusade they added new racial towns for the Dranei and Blood Elves [ Exodar and Silvermoon City] which never gained popularity because once again, centered way out of the way and the adventure base for that expansion was Outland and so Shattrath City was where everyone went, abandoning the now outdated content and old cities. Next expansion, Wrath of the Lich King - Adventure shifted to Northrend, new main base became Dalaran. Then Cataclysm came and they decided not to add any new continents and instead expand on the existing world, so everyone went back to Stormwind and Orgrimmar, also, these cities had portals to the new areas built in and all sorts of special NPCs and services were added *only* to these towns that could not be found outside so even though everyone was back in the old world, there was no reason to visit any of the old world towns anyway. And now in Pandaria it's the shrines and in a few months when Warlords comes out everyone will abandon the shrines and move on.


    In UO's case, UO has never been a game with content that leads people around. Even in classic UO, Britannia had way too many towns to begin with. Back in the day on Atlantic [2000] I remember a packed Britain, people would also banksit in Trinsic and Moonglow. And really, that was about it, the other towns were always empty. I think bank sitting had to do with convenience. Britain has all types of shops within walking distance of the bank. Trinsic has most shops and Moonglow is just small and compact. Then came Luna with all shops within steps of eachother and housing outside the gates creating the perfect one stop shop. Zento tried to copy Luna but ended up being a failure because in spacing everything out so far it still could not compete with Luna which is more of a shopping mall than a town. Putting unique quests or services won't work because people will just grab their reward item and recall out to Luna again.

    And then we have the issue with UO's population. It's very low. Even on Atlantic there are places I can go and not encounter another person for hours. On smaller dead shards its even worse. Shards like Sonoma don't even have bank sitters! Luna is as much a ghost town as all the other towns.

    Some ideas I can think of, at least for crafting would be to do like the public soul forge in Royal City and give a success bonus to crafting when using public forges. Maybe melee skill training can get a boost in public fighting pits in Jhelom, Mages could train magic skills faster at the Lyceaum, Bards can train music skills faster at the music conservatory in Britain, Paladins can gain faster in Trinsic or Luna, Necromancers can gain faster in the Necromantic school in Umbra, etc.
    At least this way there would be a REASON to go to town, for a bonus you cannot get outside.
     
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  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I've honestly always thought this issue has been exaggerated. Most people seem to have a favorite town they go to to bank in and shop with the NPCs when necessary. Hang out in the towns long enough and you'll see someone. Some towns always have been more populated than others and, as other games (from Everquest and moving through World of Warcraft) have grabbed market share from us, and as more places are added, the problem's come to look worse than it is.

    What I've always disliked is people who claim things like that banking in the towns somehow doesn't count as visiting them. That's odd to me because banking always has been a prime reason people have visited the towns. The issue to me is that the decision of where to do such things represents an emotional, largely in-character attachment to a specific city. (Think about it. You could bank anyplace. If you were interested solely in convenience, you'd always bank in Luna but odds are you don't always. And if you do bank in Luna it isn't likely to solely be for convenience.)

    And that (the fact that we can have an emotional attachment to places in the game), to me, it's difficult to put a price tag on.

    -Galen's player
     
  6. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    As mentioned previously in this thread, the increase in available housing--and I suppose, considering the decline in population, the more readily available spots due to less people--has resulted in much less "bank sitting" by nature and more "pit stop" bank visits, in which people are more likely to "visit" a non-Luna bank just for the isolation provided by that place rather than drawn to the place for any particular, lasting, emotional reason. That's why I consider habitual visits only step one in the process of town significance. I may love to visit Delucia because of familiarity, but it's mostly because of the isolation and also because there is a stable close to the bank (for those who have stuck with finding a stable as their only choice as far as using a tamer). Therefore, I agree with you I am tugged toward Delucia rather than say Skara Brae based on sentimental thoughts (both have stables close to their banks), but either way, I'm only going to pick something up, not to stay.

    A quick visit is a hard measure to populate a bank except by player-based RNG chance. Assuming the majority of players still only use NPC stablemasters in towns, stables are one of the few conditional reasons to habitually visit a town other than going to the bank. A bank, after all, is far inferior to the storage capacity of any house, nor does it allow co-owners, friends, or the public, access. It's an inflexible, outdated system, really.

    Above all else, the main attraction of Luna--for those who do not have houses (mostly x-traders)--is the proximity of the inn to the bank. I don't believe any town has less distance. Previously most people used West Britain Bank, which has relatively close inns nearby. I'd imagine the removal of the inns in Luna would therefore change the dynamic of that city, especially if the moongate was moved to, say, the south entrance of Luna.

    Not sure if I've come to a point for further discussion but I'm approaching 24 hours awake (3 hours to go), so I better stop trying to make sense for now, lol.
     
  7. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    As a WoW player I can see the point of why they would think the citys are left to ruin.... wow as with other games like it have kept doing the expantion bit adding new and eye candy to get mroe to play or even stay in game... We here in UO suffer from the same failure they do... when the dev of wow finally understand to use the areas they have made already and not make more like the panda isle.... We here in UO found Luna to be more usefull due to the npc businesses there at fingers reach... Lets face it Brit didnt offer you bank box to tailor or smith shop service for gold or resources as Luna does. Secondly Luna has had very little invasion trouble... Brit was hit so much that players looked for other places to hang out.
    Chat though is denting the hangout bit.
    If the dev of wow want some advice, I'd say repurpose the old lands with new content and make them used in the new expac.
    Make the most of what you already have....
     
  8. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    now that I presumably am well rested, lol...

    we'd have to look at other banks in the WBB era like we are looking at Luna. certainly Jhelom bank, for example, didn't attract more than two or three people at a time back then. the position of that bank is fairly awkward. the question being, at what point in our history did we have the most populated banks, and why? I'm thinking Yew (PvP), WBB (trades), Vesper and Moonglow (reagents, vendor houses nearby), Bucs (PvP)...

    the division of Fel/Tram remains the hardest change to the game world as far as populating twice the cities with same population. I do believe UO: Ren brought about an increase in sales, but even so, I doubt it doubled UO's growth for what it took away in player interaction, and that's why people are always going to ***** about Tram in general (but it was the easiest way for the devs to control "PvP zones," I guess).

    it would have been pretty interesting to see what would have happened if they made the lost lands a Red sanctuary and left the original lands as a Red-free area, without adding a duplicate world. isn't duping of anything else in UO deemed illegal? why did they think duping towns was a good idea? ;D.
     
  9. Yadd of Legends

    Yadd of Legends Certifiable
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    One possibility is to have NPCs in each town actually talk to you, like in skyrim where you never know who is going to tell you about a quest somewhere. In UO random monsters across the land could drop special loot on different days. NPCs in random towns would share rumors that would point you toward them. This would give us a reason to visit the towns for the leads and a reason to get out across the land to track down the monsters with the special loot.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. soze

    soze Seasoned Veteran
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    Ok. I am going to suggest a radical idea that may get shouted down here (with an understanding)

    Auction off some of the buildings in the cities for housing. The building remains the same, and if you win one, your storage is that of a castle ( in case it's a small place). You can place ONE vendor....and the vendor will automatically wear the city colors. You must give up your current house if you win the auction.

    For bAnks: each of your characters needs to select a home bank. Each home bank gives a special bonus depending on the skill. Like vesper for fishing, Brit for music, Jhelum for swordsman.....you get the point. This May force players doing common things together?

    Radical ideas for time that may need some radicalization

    I am currently not playing. ......been out for over a year now. I do read this board occasionally, and the same issues of lack of players and the overall health of the game come up. The game (especially dungeons and crafting) has gotten so complex. My own personal opinion: events brought people out......with dynamic story arcs.

    I hope to see a great return to Britannia event!
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I like the idea of auctioning off cities, but the problem with that, of course, is player involvement. The change is only as good as the individual's efforts.

    We do have town loyalty already in place, so these ideas might not be too far fetched.

    I think NPC/AI interaction is the most consistent form of content. It's a very interesting problem for a large world, in which expansions continue to decentralize or refocus player hotspots.
     
  12. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    We use to be able to belong to a merchants guild. Tailor, Smith, you would get better prices. We would pay 500 gold to join. You're idea is good and they already have the code for it.
     
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  13. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    The location for the moongate in Luna was originally out the north entrance. You can see the place hiding between a couple of homes. I don't think it is very secure to have the moongate inside the fort walls!!!
     
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  14. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    With Broadsword in more command of UO atm I can't see why they don't rebuild the cities for more of a purpose to the player base.


    If a developer feels like changing weapons and armor (AoS) and adding that to the game which radically changed the original UO I can't see why cities cant be updated(rebuild, add new, add city questing, crafter services, fairs and markets, player housing and expansion of the city itself) to bring in more players to be in the cities.

    Players bank sitting at Luna really don't count as an active player. Sitting at a city and waiting for a person to poof in and out isn't really calling that city active either. Running around the city solo isn't an active city. The cities lost their purpose.

    There is no real purpose to be in the city unless you go to the bank.

    1) Add city quests for crafters, PvE and PvP player base.

    2) Add markets and fair designated areas. Not vendors but where real players are there actively selling goods.

    3) Add player housing in/and/or outside of thercity boundary but still part of the city.

    4) Update the cities. The game is 17 years old you think by now that some buildings would be in need of repair, rebuilt, fixed, or added by now.

    5) Update the docks in cities that have them. I figure the players who have the High Seas expansion would like to bring their ships into better looking and functional docks.

    6) Bring back the RP experience back into the cities. There has to be more than just elections of the player base to do with them. Maybe a murder of an official and there needs to be clues to who done it. Make it like that game Clue. City invasions small ones where solo and mass players can do a little more easily. I mean like the Ogres and Trolls probably get tired of being whacked out in the woods or caves by players and probably would like to get a little payback. They have feelings to you know.

    7) Bring back more of a purpose of the cities in fel with the VvV system.

    8) Cities grow and by that i mean upward and outward. Put a little fertilizer on them so they can expand.

    9) Luna ruined the rest. Pretty simple to explain. The devs would of never had to put in a global vendor system if things would of been different. Player housing almost became useless when you can add a vendor at Luna. The thrill of the game was finding good vendors on player houses when exploring. If they closed shop you had to find others. Why advertise in other cities by runes when you just have a vendor at Luna.

    The Love:
    (Insert city name) I love you so much and always enjoy the company of you and my fellow players.

    The Cheat:

    Luna comes along and hikes up her skirt to show a little leg and seems much sexier than (Insert city name) It's kind of like that "good" at first and then the " I wish I never met that person" relationship when it comes to Luna.

    The result:

    (You) Yes I cheated on you( Insert a city name) but will you please forgive me? ( Insert city name reply) No and now (Insert city) am cold and empty with no purpose to you or the rest that has treated me that way.
     
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  15. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    I honestly don't think there is anything that can be done at this point to switch where people hang out, it'll probably always be luna, the devs simply built the city to perfectly but it would definitely be nice to see the other cities updated and improved.
     
  16. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    On Siege, Factions taxes killed most of the old towns. Luna killed the vendors in player towns.
    Now New Magincia and Zento is the most used towns on Siege.
    G.v.P. have some good points.

    Also LRC suits made players stop going to town to buy regs and the spawn around the Towns are to weak and with to poor loot for young chars to hunt.
    On Siege, the stall vendors works well and I believe normal shards learn of Siege. Mainly all resources players can gathering, can't be brought on NPC vendors. Also NPC vendors do not buy loot and crafted items, so the economy do not get alot of gold that way.
    The stall vendor plots should be added to all towns and for large player towns. The Ilshena Gypsy NPC vendors and minter would be fine in player Towns too.

    To get life back in the towns, players need to live in and around the Towns. Crafters should depend of the ressource spawn near town, Young chars should do their training around town and the loot should be useful for them. Coveteus level 1 could give an idea for overlands spawn, more non aggressive mobs, so they do not attack miners and lumberjacks and add the headless miners to mining caves and bring Coveteus back to hunting place for chars in the 70-80 skills. Overland need to be used.

    Also more quests, like the Heartwood quests, we don't need Heartwood, we need this quests copied to every town, so crafters and Young hunters will go to their local town and do them.

    Each Dungeon should have a level worth hunting for chars in 70-90 in skills so young chars would choose a local dungeon.

    Now add a PvP switch like the in my PvP in Trammel thread to help Building the community
     
  17. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    I been saying this for a while now. Britain needs to be populated. the fact that it is not is a travesty in my opinion.

    there should be player housing in britian. there should be another rubble event, where the city is destroyed and guards are removed fel side for pvp.

    a gold sink lottery held again after the cleanup but with new classic house designs that can be upgraded (really big gold sink) depending upon how much gold you drop. i.e. think lord of the manor needing to drop 1 billion or something along those lines.

    I say new classic styles because the end result should look classy and rather not of the hodge podge variety that is found around most luna interior walls.
     
  18. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    Actually, that's not a bad idea. In fact, raffling off tickets to win the buildings could also provide a nice additional gold sink. I'd also stipulate that the town would foreclose if the account goes inactive, at which time the building would be raffled again.
     
  19. jill

    jill Adventurer
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    To me the most important thing that killed the cities was insurance on items and Lower Regent Cost suits. Now there is no need to enter towns to gather regents or purchase items. Maybe if they made LRC a rechargeable item via a city stone or something at a cost as well as you have to purchase your item insurance from a NPC in town that might help encourage some city participation. At least the occasional visit. Without insurance and LRC there was more trade in the game for your armor and items.. now you seem more able to sit on your so so items and just insure them to make them last ---forever-- and with no cost (100% LRC) . Also before we had NPC guilds you could join in towns that allowed like 10% off on your purchases there.
     
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  20. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    I hear of a rumor of a Trog peeking over the walls of Trinsic giving everybody the finger for messing with them in their cave all the time. The sad thing was nobody was there to see it. He left disappointed. :(

    Another rumor going around was the Trolls was doing Flaming bags of Troll poop at Vesper but nobody was there and nobody came to the doors so they left crying. :(

    Last rumor floating around was an army of Zombies was marching upon Cove to haunt it and chase away the inhabitants. When they get there the city was already empty and void. They just walked into the sea because they have no purpose but realized they were already dead and can't drown. Now they are stuck there under the sea because they can't swim :(

    Oh I almost forgot the big rumor ,Kimye ( Kim K and Kanye for those who do not know lol) is having their wedding in Luna so that will definitely destroy Luna when nothing else in the game could. :)
     
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  21. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    *writes note to self... avoid trogs, trolls, zombies, and especially Luna*