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Interesting Suggestion for Hiding...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Wallenstein, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. Wallenstein

    Wallenstein Guest

    Earlier today I was dabbling at the Yew gate seeing what was going on. I noticed a ton of people used hiding and that they were hiding right out in the middle of wide open areas.

    My suggestion is to make the hiding skill usable only if you are standing within one or two tiles of an unmoveable and grounded object (i.e. tree, house, wall, pole, rock, etc.). This would be much more realistic, as you really need something to hide in, on, or around in order to "hide". You shouldn't be able to really "hide" in a wide open field and not be visible.. it just doesn't make much sense.

    Has this ever been discussed? I have heard a lot about changing skills but I can't recall ever reading anything about changing how hiding works. Thoughts?
     
  2. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Well, as long as we need to be realistic.

    MAGIC does not exist so it would be far more realistic to REMOVE ALL MAGIC from the game.

    The only animals that should remain in the Game are Horses, cats etc. All in the name of being REALISTIC.

    All Dragons, Ogres, Orcs, Wyverns heck all MoB's that are NOT Human or directly observable in our world should be removed from the game. All in the name of being REALISTIC.

    No Weapon should have any modifier on it, Come on now that is NOT realistic period.

    Houses should be removed from the game. Come on now, it is totally UNREALISTIC for a house to simply appear out of no where.

    Boats should be removed as Boats just dont appear out of thin air. Lets get Real here.

    Elves should be removed from the game. Come on now Show me an Elf. Remove them they are totally UNREALISTIC.

    Lets see know, what do we have left for MMORPG's? Why a Realistic World we all live in. Hum, why pay to be were your already in, in the first place.
     
  3. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    NOOOOOOO don't nerf my stealth archer, its the only char I can PvP on!!!!!

    Expect something along those lines in a lot of posts, even if people change the reason. In my opinion though, this is a good idea. I would change the hiding/stealth skills to either this, or if you attack someone, you have a 30 second to 1 minute cooldown time before you can hide again, either with the skill, or a smoke bomb. Too many times do I see lousy stealth archers pop out, shoot, be attacked and almost killed, and then smoke bomb away.
     
  4. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Gotta love responses like these. It's a FANTASY game, ogres/dragons/demons/etc. actually make sense here, its FANTASY. But even in a fantasy world, it's gotta be somewhat realistic, I mean, being able to be completely invisible in a wide open area? I can understand invisibility spell and potions allowing that, but hiding? That's just disappearing from view, not becoming invisible.
     
  5. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Oh Fantasy, Oh you mean as YOU define it? Perhaps you can define for all to agree with, just exactly how does Hiding and Stealth work. OR maybe it would be just ... better to say, IT IS FANTASY AND NOTHING NEEDS TO MAKE SENSE. IT JUST NEEDS TO BE FUN/ENTERTAINING.

    I can of course be just like you and say ORCS are NOT REAL, get rid of them and who are you kidding to say they belong in a Fantasy game? See just how simple it is to say that is a stupid idea and my idea is so much more brilliant than your moronic perspective.

    On the other hand you believe you have the only definition of fantasy and everyone else is a moron.

    BUT to be REALISTIC, go do a google on meta materials and directing the electormagnetic spectrum (you know light belongs in that spectrum) providing 3D Invisibilty. See how it is already in the labs and expected to be .... in use by 2011. No magic involved. SO YEAH in a Fantasy Game, lets MANDATE REALISM. Yes lets remove MAGIC in favour of REALISM.
     
  6. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    What's to say that hiding doesn't allow you to magically disappear from view? The description of the skill says

    "With sufficient skill in Hiding, you can disappear into the shadows whenever necessary. "

    It doesn't say that you use mundane means to disappear, so it could be said to be magical. Which fits into this fantasy game quite well.
     
  7. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    There aren't any shadows in an open field. :p

    And there isn't the technological equivalent of what we will have in 2011 in UO, so what's the point of bringing that up? :/
     
  8. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Yet another reason why it should be considered magical. There aren't any daemons standing beside you either until you magically summon one. So you magically summon shadows in which you magically disappear in. Isn't fantasy gaming great?
     
  9. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Uh excuse me while I look at you funny. You want a Real World Realism in a Fantasy World. Then when it is inconvenient you say why bring the Real World Realism into it.

    And please do define Shadow in a Fantasy World. So you want to Say the Shadow Lords can NOT exist in .... what ... gosh an open field in full daylight? Oh wait is that Grass and Rocks there? Oh wait maybe Shadow in the context of a Fantasy World means to be able to pull any Shadow, now matter how small it is and cloak your self in it such that no one can see you. It being a Fantasy World, I can make up anything I want.

    OR wait, perhaps Shadow doesnt mean Literally shadow produced by the absence of light as in a TECHNOLOGY. Perhaps it is Shadow as in a Mystical Substance you know in keeping with a FANTASY WORLD. What was it Peter Pan was chasing and needed to sew back on?

    Your rebuttal will now flip flop back to being Real World Realism.
     
  10. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    In which case there should be a casting delay. :) Every other magical spell has one.
     
  11. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    No one said it was a spell. Well, except you. So, since you don't cast you don't need a casting delay.
     
  12. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Well, you said it magically summons shadows, all things that I know of in-game that are magical take charges or have some sort of cast time...
     
  13. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    All things you cast, yes. You don't cast hiding. You hide. I know you are itching to nerf something you can't handle, but at least come up with a way to do it that makes sense.
     
  14. Wallenstein

    Wallenstein Guest

    Like Ender said, there are no shadows in a wide open field area. The Invisibility magery spell is different, in that it's a magic spell in a fantasy game that can make a character invisible. This is perfectly fine and understandable, and it makes sense. The hiding skill, though, somewhat doesn't..

    How can you use a skill called 'Hiding' that merely hides your character if there is nothing to hide behind or alongside? If anything the hiding skill should make a character see-through like wraith forms, but the skill shouldn't just make a character invisible in a wide open area if there is nothing to create the "shadows".

    As for the fighting going on in this thread, please keep the thread on track.. The last thing I was shooting for was for this to turn into an argumentative topic.
     
  15. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    Also, the title for a grandmaster resister is Grandmaster Mage. What is the casting time on resisting a spell?
     
  16. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    In a fantasy setting, shadows don't have to follow real world rules. They can be summoned, controlled and used in ways that you can't in the real world. Thus making it magical.

    Again, its magical hiding. No where does it say that you have to run to an ingame shadow to make it work. In fact, it says "With sufficient skill in Hiding, you can disappear into the shadows whenever necessary" not "you can run to a shadow and hide in it." It says you actually disappear.

    It also says "If successful, you become invisible to other players and monsters" which sounds to me that its not really mundane hiding like you seem to think it is but closer to the invisibility spell, except being a skill.

    You actually disappear and actually become invisible. You can't just pick one word out of the description "shadows" and claim that it shouldn't work the way it does. If you can use the magery skill to cast an invisibility spell and disappear as a result, you can also use the hiding skill to disappear from view and become invisible, as the description says you do.
     
  17. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Differences:

    it doesn't work every time
    it isn't activated by the user
    it isn't even that useful.


    Hiding: at GM hiding it works EVERY TIME as long as you are what, 7 tiles away? Not even if you use a smoke bomb. Which was a ridiculous item, you can hide anywhere with one. Hiding is activated by a user. It allows you be completely invisible for as long as you want/until somebody reveals you.

    And back to your "who says hiding doesn't summon shadows?" How can it summon shadows from nowhere with no activation time? You said it magically summons shadows from nowhere, or something similar.
     
  18. If you're standing out in the open, aren't you casting your own shadow?

    :eek:snap:
     
  19. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    lol @ this.

    And I know it's just a joke, but how do you hide in your own shadow? It's pretty dang small most of the time. And in the open field you could see somebody crouched down in a shadow with nothing close to them. :/
     
  20. SAVATAGE

    SAVATAGE Seasoned Veteran
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    FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THATS HOLY WHY DO WE GET THESE SUGGESTIONS?!
     
  21. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    For balance. Ya ever think there's a reason you see so many stealth archers in Fel?
     
  22. SAVATAGE

    SAVATAGE Seasoned Veteran
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    Truthfuly... ive only fought about 4 different ones in the last 4 months. so no... Stealth archers are for taking pot shots when people are low on health.. not pvping.. their pkers. and if you cant play it like that and need smoke bombs (which i agree are lame) then you need to make a different character. the ONLY change i would like hiding to have is............ is to be able to talk while hidden again..... i LOVED that.....
     
  23. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Because it works everytime at GM means that its a spell? Not sure what point you are trying to make there other than "I get killed by people that can hide and my template doesn't have room for it" maybe. Yes, hiding is activated by the user, like most other skills are. Detect hidden is activated by the user too. So is Animal Taming and Animal Lore. Some skills need to be activated by the user and some don't. And?

    I said that it could be magically summoning shadows. But I also said that you can't take one word from the description (shadows) and use it to claim that the skill doesn't work like it should. You disappear from sight and become invisible. That's pretty clear in the description of the skill. It also doesn't have a cast time because its not cast, its activated.
     
  24. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest


    Not if they disappeared and were invisible. Do you want to skip that part of the description still and just fall back on the 'shadows' part? There are more than just one word in the description of hiding to describe its effect. Disappear and invisible being two of them. Are you saying you should automatically be able to see all invisible characters? What would be the point of hiding, stealth, invisibility potions and the invisibility spell then?
     
  25. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    You also see a lot of mages. So lets get rid of magery. Then when you start seeing all those warriors, we should get rid of anatomy, tactics and weapon skills. Then those tamers have to go because you will see so many of them once mages, warriors and stealthers are gone. Soon we will be down to those pesky herders. That's all you see these days. I remember when we had stealth archers, mages, warriors, tamers, bards and necromancers. Those were the good old days huh? Now its just those darned herders with their crooks and my cook can't compete with them.
     
  26. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    lol wut? Where in there did I say anything close to "its a spell because it works 100% at gm?" gb2school? lrn2readingcomprehend?

    And no, I don't "get killed by people that can hide and my template doesn't have room for it", I play a stealth archer. ZOMG you see what I'm doing? I'm admitting a template I play is unbalanced! It's never been heard of before!

    To debunk your other examples of activated skills:

    Detect Hidden: I think 100% at GM? Almost nobody outside of Siege uses it.
    Animal taming - Not 100%. Allows you to force a tamable creature to serve you. Requires animal lore to use effectively. Should also require veterinary.
    Animal lore - 100%, but not unbalancing. Allows you to control pets and see their stats. Requires animal taming to be of any practical use. Should also require veterinary.


    Next paragraph: Still, that "magically summoning shadows." How? It takes no time, no mana, nothing but a push of a button. Suggestion: require casting time and/or mana. And to argue your saying that I'm interpreting the skill wrong: The description does not say you become completely invisible with no time limit.


    My suggestions:

    Have hiding require cast time/mana to "summon shadows to disappear in."

    Have a maximum steps in a given time limit for stealth, or a maximum usage before a cooldown time. You shouldn't be able to endlessly walk around invisible. Especially with the addition of animal form.

    I mean, come on. You get to be completely invisible, and move fairly fast, especially with ninjitsu. I think somebody could probably notice if somebody was moving around under cover of extremely small rocks, trees, plants, grass, or nothing.
     
  27. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    There's a difference. I'm not saying just archers, but a subdivision of archers (stealth archers). Just like I see more 4/6 chiv dexers than other types of dexers. Completely different characters are fine, but when most characters are one subtype of character, I personally feel that there's something wrong.
     
  28. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    *points to avatar*

    I get where waldo is commin from with the hiding.. kinda like "Thief" if anyone remembers that game.. your "invisibility" is determined by the amount of light reflecting off of you. In an open field, during the DAY.. sitting duck.

    Moving through the midnight shadows, tip toeing around, avoiding tile floors because they make noise.. thats hiding imo.
     
  29. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    That was a question, not a statement saying that you said that. I was trying to understand your point and still don't. Try harder and I might.

    That's says more about you than you think, and not in a good way.

    How did that debunk my statement that they were activated spells? You brought up that hiding was activated by the player, for what reason I don't know. Still trying to find out but you won't explain. I merely brought up other skills that were activated by the user since I thought that is what you wanted to talk about.


    And 100 skill points. Its a skill. Taming takes no mana either. And when you finish that you are able to control a greater dragon. If you are saying that a character with a greater dragon is easier to fight than a character with 100 hiding, you are doing something wrong.

    And it doesnt' say that you become invisible with a time limit. What is your point there? My point, since you seem to miss it each time, is that the description of hiding is much more than just 'you hide in a shadow'. It clearly says that you actually disappear and become invisible. You are dwelling on one word 'shadows' that doesn't even make up the meat of the description.


    Again, stop focusing onthe shadows part. You don't really need shadows inorder to use hiding. That's pretty clear. You also disappear and become invisible. Its working as it should and is not overpowered in the least.

    You aren't moving under cover of small rocks, trees, plants, grass or nothing. You have disappeared and become invisible. I just wish the description said that. Oh wait, it does.
     
  30. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    You can actively reduce the number of stealth archers out there. Delete your character, its overpowered and you are better thanthat. There, now there is one less stealth archer out there running around killing everything that moves. Thanks for the help. To do my part, I won't make a stealth archer. See, that's two.
     
  31. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    Stop trying to nerf stuff. It's lame. Hiding has been in game for 11 years. Adapt already. Hiding and stealth are 220 skill points somebody put into their template....to be able to hide and stealth!

    Nerf threads are lame. How about we find something we don't like about your template and nerf it.

    Nerf pots!
    Nerf stealth!
    Nerf tamers!
    Nerf sampires!
    Nerf everything!
    Nerf private housing!

    It's ridiculous.
     
  32. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Some one got killed by a Hidden/Stealthy person and comes here to whine and cry about it looking to get support and sympathy.

    Then proceeds to SELECTIVELY demand Realism (as in the REAL WORLD) be injected into a Fantasy World, to justify his demands to punish the person that killed him.
     
  33. Wallenstein

    Wallenstein Guest

    Actually that's not true. I went to the gate to check on the decay status of a house and stayed to watch some fight that was going on between a couple of guilds. Every time the two main duelists ran off screen for a second a bunch of people would hide out in the open.

    Also, I'm not demanding realism. I just suggested something for others to give their thoughts on. I take it you're an archer and hiding is your most prized skill, and that's why you're so adamantly pushing the fact that my suggestion is a flop?

    Move on. You've stated your opinion.. You don't like the idea. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't continuously post in this topic picking apart posts and not adding any of your own input.

    Enjoy.
     
  34. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    There is a term in fantasy games, books, movies. It is used by the better creators of such to maintain the interest of the reader/watcher/user.

    Suspension of Disbelief.

    It means, while you can create an idea of things completely unreal and imaginary, they must maintain a consistancy of realism in their own laws and rules.

    If my blacksmith character can use a sledge and iron ingots to make a bowl of pudding, do you think it reasonable?
    It is fantasy after all, there is no reason for reality to intrude.

    And why should I need the ingots in the first place? In REALITY you need metal to make things of metal, but it is a game. I should be able to just crank out suits of armor all day without any resources.

    The game is designed with fantasy creatures, magic, and lands. But it bases many of the activities themselves on realistic factors. Smiths do require metal to make metal objects, and you cannot make a bowl of pudding from iron. That would be a form of magic, and we don't have a spell for it.

    That is the reasoning being applied to the suggestion. Hiding is based on the realistic ability to avoid being seen.


    Personally I don't want to see another nerf, but I think people are being far to harsh and are too eager to pull the "reality" card on someone. ;)
     
  35. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Exactly.
     
  36. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    If you consider disappearing and becoming invisible as realistic abilities, then yes.


    Exactly! To quote someone right above this post. Its silly to try to use the reality card to try to nerf hiding. Especially when the description clearly states that when you use hiding you disappear and become invisible instead of just hiding behind a rock or in a shadow as certain people seem to claim.
     
  37. UltimaSword

    UltimaSword Guest

    Not exactly. Does it make sense that my mage can create fire out of nothing? No it doesn't but in a fantasy world it can happen with no realistic basis. Besides nerfing hiding will finally nail the coffin shut on thieves. If it hasn't been nailed already.
     
  38. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Actually, yes it does. lrn2magery?
     
  39. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Then maybe you should lrn2hide? Then you will understand that hiding allows you to disappear and become invisible. It doesn't allow you to hide behind a small rock, blade of grass or a nonsense filled post.

    Oh wait, aren't you the one that claims that you play what you claim is an overpowered template? Ya, glad you have such standards that you pick an overpowered template to play instead of playing something challenging.
     
  40. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    I didn't say it was my only template either... I PvP primarily on a mage.

    And difference between magery and hiding: magery is all about magic, you use magic to create fields of fire, heal, resurrect, throw fireballs, etc.

    Hiding should be, by the definition of hiding, concealing yourself, not really becoming invisible.
     
  41. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Sure ya do. :thumbsup:
     
  42. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Yes, I sure do. Not in a guild or anything, I don't pretend to think I'm good, but I do.
     
  43. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Actualy No I am a Peace Tamer and let Hiding be replaced by meditation. I do have a stealther that has only one real function, to go places and scout them out and mark runes if required.

    Nice try, but hey lets reverse your logic, you stated your for killing hiding. Move on, you have no further need to read or participate in this thread. SO MOVE ON.

    Yes, the reality is YOU are demanding a SELECTIVE Reality as in REAL WORLD check saying Hiding is vastly over powered and you can say it was just innocent house watching but the reality is you got killed and came here to whine about it. Thinking you could get support and sympathy to change an original skill that YOU cant deal with. What, let me guess, your one of those people that think there are Hidden people all around you spying on you, watching every move you make and you simply can not shake the ... certain knowledge that hidden people are watching you, all the time.

    You insist on REALITY CHECK TIME for what you cant or wont deal with but Suspension of REALITY for what you CAN DEAL WITH. By any definition, lie, con, scam, YOU are demanding a SELECTIVE REALITY CHECK.
     
  44. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    His "suspension of reality" is just what makes a fantasy game a fantasy game (demons, dragons, ogres, elves, etc.). Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  45. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Yes how convenient, Selective for YOU only and of course YOUR selective is the only one that means anything. Way to look out for whats best for the community there. YOUR personal interest before everything else.

    And if YOU can demand SELECITVE Reality Checks then Every one here has the right to do the same thing.

    Ponder this .... Yes, lets define a Fantasy game by measuring/defining it vs the REAL WORLD.

    I mean your shouting your goal at the top of your lungs all the while thinking your so clever no one gets what your doing.

    "Nothing more, nothing less"

    The above is YOU shouting your goal. To make it clear, YOU are the only entity that can define the content of the Fantasy. NO ONE ELSE CAN. You ... well you clearly demonstrate the community does not matter to you period, you 100% excluded them.
     
  46. UltimaSword

    UltimaSword Guest

    Good thing the developers see hiding as another fantasy and magical ability just like magery. I'm done here.
     
  47. Krystal

    Krystal Sage
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    i agree, hiding/stealth should be fixed
     
  48. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    Your character really can't see 360 degrees all around him/her either. You should only ever be able to see what is in the field of vision of your character. The hiding skill represents a player staying outside of that field of vision. It represents a character blending into the shadows.
     
  49. Krystal

    Krystal Sage
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    then make it line of sight to, like they do with thieving:)
     
  50. Starla

    Starla Guest

    So we need to carry a rock in our backpack and place it on the ground so that we can hide underneath the rock ??? Or how about a trashcan? Then I can stealth while hiding inside the trashcan and everyone would see a slow moving innocent trashcan sneaking around ^^