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Invasion tamer griefing. Please fix this!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Giggles, Oct 25, 2013.

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  1. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    There is a bug, or exploit if you will, that allows bards to discord players pets in guard zones, without being flagged aggressive or criminal.
    I understand that fel rulesets are different under the lines of luring etc for the sake of battle tactics, however this is a bit absurd.

    When a bard decides they want to pester you, all they do is follow you everywhere and keep your animal discorded and you can't do anything to stop them other then go do something else with your time. Your pet is as good as dead once that discord hits it, with as difficult as these mobs are. I don't think this is right or fair.

    In addition to discording, we also have the occasional peacemaking bard who follows dexxors around chain area peacemaking. This isn't as damaging, but still rather annoying to have to constantly manually re target everything every 3 seconds.

    Please look in to this!
     
    #1 Giggles, Oct 25, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
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  2. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    They would have to change how the new content in Despise works if they change discord on all Tramel Pets
     
  3. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    One of my current mess around characters is a wrestle/ninja/parry/stealth/peacer that is completely unkillable even 1 vs 2 against the best warriors. He eats smoke bombs and disarms and does 40+ deathstrikes all the while negating pets with peace area.
    He is the perfect character for those times at the gate when there is nothing but disarm warriors or tamers.

    That being said I only play this character in felucca and only when there are red gank squads & tamers running around. It is felucca and all is fair. If a blue mage can field people in all day long without flagging then a blue peacer should darn well be able to peace all day long without flagging. Its that simple.

    But I think Trammel is a whole different story and it should be tweaked in Trammel only so that a peacer cannot grief innocent tamers that way. Don't know how it could be done but it should be looked into imo
     
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  4. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    I have to agree with Goldberg on this one. Bards have to have a tactic somehow or what good are they?
     
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  5. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Did you miss the part about the Invasion and not normal play.
     
  6. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    My bad, I still thought he was referring to Trammel no?
     
  7. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    No I am referring to the invasion events in fel city's. Some people attend to fight others.. cool... but some people also attend to be a thorn in peoples side. And again cool... in some aspects. But as far as the bard goes, like I said, they discord your pet. Its not a fight, it doesn't give you a chance to attack them back, it is purely griefing. Your pets are blue, they are blue, and that is their only purpose... kill your pet with discord while its fighting the invasion mobs. If you attack the bard BAM a guard smashes your face.

    I wouldn't mind this if the aggressive act actually flagged the bard as attackable. Then I can at least get some pvp out of the deal. But nope, they just discord it, giggle, and go back to watching TV while your pet gets smashed.
     
    #7 Giggles, Oct 25, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
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  8. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Must be a shard thing.
     
  9. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    It's a fel thing.
    Since the change of discord back in the day (It used to be called Enticement) players are able to stay blue and unflagged while discording other people's pets. It needs to be changed so that it is considered an aggressive act towards the pet owner/pet because it is an aggressive act.
     
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  10. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Haven't seen it on my shard. Must be a shard thing.
     
  11. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I think she's talking about target discord of pets. Peace is a different story altogether. But target discord of a blue players pets in fel should be an aggressive act.
     
  12. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    What shard do you play?
    I play 6 shards. I've seen it happen on almost all of them.
     
  13. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    It's no exploit. It's been around as long as I can remember pets being used in pvp. Cu's, dreads and greater dragons. The pvp tamers tried to get a fix but have been brushed off for years.

    I guess now that it effects mostly tram players wanting to farm fel it'll be in the next patch..
     
  14. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Drachenfels.
     
  15. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Heh Drachenfels is a special case all around.
     
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  16. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    It may be shard specific, but it dosen't change the fact that it is an over looked game error that should be fixed.

    Imagin I am a blue bard, and you are a blue tamer in fel together.

    If I hit you dragon with a fireball..... I get guard wacked in town, and outside of town I go criminal.
    If I hit your dragon with a paralize.... I get guard wacked in town, and outside of town I go criminal.
    If I hit your dragon with a stick.... I get guard wacked in town, and outside of town I go criminal.
    If I hit your dragon with a spit wad... I get guard wacked in town, and outside of town I go criminal.
    If I hit your dragon with Discord which lowers health, resist, and damage output...... I get to laugh and laugh and say "hey your dragon looks kinda cute when it dies! Sucks to be you!"

    Yea.... cool.
     
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  17. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Lol? The things you listed are nothing like what the OP posted.

    Discoing someones pet in Fel, SHOULD be considered an aggressive act, but it hasn't for years. Probably just going to have to live with it.
     
  18. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    It's the same tactics been used at spawns for scrolls in fel and never been brought up but because of an invasion part in fel the same tactics being used an issue now?

    So its OK to be used anywhere else in fel but not during an event. It's Fel and part of the enviroment so things like this should be expected. Thank the developers for allowing this for so long. It be the pot calling the kettle black if they fixed it now but not before XD

    I understand the issue but in truth blues always find away to get around being flagged in fel. Calling a GM about it wont fix it. They would respond it's fel. Just how they treat who is the aggressor in fel which to this day I have no clue what developer came up with that idea and formula.
     
  19. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Discoing someone's pet is just wrong and also a bit perverted. It shouldn't happen in Tram or in Guardzone Fel.
     
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  20. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    It should be an aggressive act... but why is your shard full of a-holes?
     
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  21. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Let's see if a certain person is paying attention here. Something's been known for years, so UO's highest powers certainly know, but it's yet to be declared it illegal.

    Personally I disagree with it not flagging, but it doesn't look like anything will happen after all these years.
     
  22. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Anonymity and a lack of consequences tend to bring out the worst in human nature. I've yet to see this happen, but I haven't been doing too much invasion fighting.
     
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  23. Neireid

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    Guys, someone is complaining about Bard's discording pets, when the skills are part of their arsenal, is whining for no reason. What is wrong, is luring on purpose to ensure other players are killed, so they can take over the mob and get kills to gain goodies...really!! that is being a total hypocrite. The same person brings their bard to Yew gate and does the same....so what gives with that comment? Because its an event/invasion, it shouldn't be allowed? whoa perverted view point. There are bigger and more serious issues to consider.....
     
  24. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Luring in fel is legal.

    What is being discussed here is a request for change involving an aggressive act of discording someone's pet and flagging.
     
  25. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I don't know who you refer to by "someone," so my viewpoint is objective. I don't believe a player should be able to make a negative effect on another player's pet and have no repercussions.
     
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  26. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No way.

    If you make discoing pets in fel aggressive then you must also make walling/fielding people in aggressive. As it used to be I believe no?

    Walling someone in is usually an instant death sentence btw. A discoed pet is serious but not quite the same instant death sentence
     
  27. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Wall of Stone never has triggered an aggressor flag (recall Galad's adventures), and I don't recall that energy fields ever did either. It's been a favorite tactic of lame blue PKs for that reason, and why I stocked up (and still have a lot) of teleport rings.
     
  28. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    How is casting wall of stone (or efield) an aggressive act? You target the ground not a pet or person. If you're getting caught with no way around the walls .. I don't even know what to say about that.
    There is no counter for a tamer who gets their pet discorded. You cannot compare the two, it's apples and oranges. You can't even "just take the count" and kill the bard because it's guard zone. I can guarantee you aren't getting fielded in in guard zone.
     
  29. The Zog historian

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    Though it isn't a direct act, its use against players is almost always to trap them in. Galad used to wall in a lot of people to get them killed at the Terathan Keep, eliminating the need to take counts.

    Of course they can't be cast in town, but outside town, it requires taking murder counts to kill the blues. A player shouldn't have to risk going red as part of defense.
     
  30. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Truth, but one would be willing to, if one could, as defense against, or protection of, dragons being discorded. But since this is guard zone, no such risk is even available because the discorder is not flagged.
     
  31. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Discord pet = should flag
     
  32. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Going back to discording, sure, it's in town. That's why it's popping up as a griefing tactic, though I still haven't seen it. Tonight I ran into some allies I'd never really gotten to know before, and we did great. A blue joined in, no problem.
     
  33. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    You cannot wall/field in town, but you can discord pets in town, this is the issue here. Discord in town should flag grey the bard. I support OP 100% here.
     
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  34. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    Yes, we are all Insane! :thumbsup:
     
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  35. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Mark a few runes for different bits of the cities. When a bard discos your pet, recall to another spot. In the larger towns it'll take him quite a while to track you down each time and if he doesn't get to kill you or your pets then it's not really satisfying. Might be a bit inconvenient for you initially, but if you consistently do it he's going to get bored eventually. He's wanting to frustrate and interrupt you and may want attention. All you need to do is deny him whatever satisfaction he's wanting. You have many options to solve a player problem in Fel before you need to call for a dev intervention.

    Flagging does not scare anyone in Fel. If I was using my bard to annoy tamers I'd wear only blessed gear and an instrument. I'd shuffle more evil skills onto the template too for versatility in how I annoyed said tamers. Flagging is not going to bother me in the slightest in that setup, I have nothing to lose. Fortunately I'm a nice lass so I wouldn't do that, but if you think that flagging a bard will solve your problems, I can assure you it won't. There are places in the cities where you step out the guardzone and your pets are vulnerable, not just for barding but for attack too. If the bard did well there you might die too and leave a lootable corpse outside guardzone too. A crazy bard may just wait till your pet is in trouble and disco at the end of a fight. Get your pet killed and laugh as he runs to the healers. But I can promise you if you got this changed, you'd find something else would be there in its place. Stealing, luring, lots of stuff you wouldn't want either. I would rather keep them barding pets than tempt them to learn worse tricks. With the NPC bards and satyrs around town already, I'm quite used to a disco'd pet as it is. Besides, I'm a great believer in leaving Tram as the safe facet and keeping the wild in Fel. We can choose which of these spawns to attend and whatever level of risk we are content with. I think that's a better solution than asking devs to change the game.

    I think bards got the usual exclusion card during this event already, which is beyond stupid. One of the oldest PvM templates sidelined and left to buff... On the smaller shards I'm sure some groups would appreciate a discorded boss or two and some help from a provoker. If they need a single change right now it is to correct that exclusion, not flag them for discording pets. Let bards use their actual skills on the spawns not just play with buffs all day. Then perhaps more of them would be working the spawn and not discording pets.

    Wenchy
     
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  36. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    Was this supposed to be a new thread or a reply in the other thread? Not really sure why this comment warrants it's own thread when there is already a discussion on the topic.
     
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  37. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    I appreciate your thoughtful reply however I do have some arguments to make.

    Flagging the bard would make my life easier for these reasons...
    I could fight back outside of guard zone without risking going red. (keep in mind I have 6 red characters, Im trying to keep a couple of them blue =) )
    In guard zone the bard will be guard wacked for doing harmful actions to my blue pet as it should be.

    As far as the person using other means to annoy me instead....
    Luring is legal in fel.
    Stealing is legal in fel.
    Being obnoxious is legal in fel (to a point).
    These things I am not complaining about. I am complaining about a obvious griefing tactic that cannot be countered in any fashion. Its pretty simple really. I haven't used my tamer in this event since it happened. I am now running around on a necro mage spellweaver which works quite nicely. It doesn't change the fact that this should be looked in to and fixed.
     
    #37 Giggles, Oct 26, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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  38. aarons6

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    no this really needs to be changed.. my tamer went red a few times because of this..
    doing a champ spawn and some stealth disco pops out and discos my dragon..

    i cant tell the dragon to attack because he is blue and I get the murder count.

    if i just ignore him, well he keeps doing it and my dragon dies.. then a red guy pops out and kills me..


    so my only choice is to kill the blue and take the count.. this is not fair as he attacked my directly by discoing my dragon.
     
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  39. Krinkle

    Krinkle Journeyman
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    Give it a rest. EA has not cared about griefing in 10 years.
     
  40. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    This ^^^^^
     
  41. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    If you're taking counts, you choose your fights or spread the counts over different characters. But when there is the option to recall somewhere and carry on regardless, there is no need for a bard to flag or for you to actually kill them. I wouldn't waste a count on killing a bard, I'd sooner waste their time playing town tag instead. Or set my thief on them or use another character. There are so many options before you need to fight a bard. Besides, discording alone won't kill your pet so as long as they aren't doing the damage to your pet directly, you just pull them away from the spawn and ignore the bard. When you see them on screen again be ready to repeat this as often as necessary. Take control in a way that doesn't involve fighting and it's often a lot more satisfying. Especially if someone is desperate for that reaction and a fight and you deny them one.

    Years ago we had folks like that at our RP towns and they'd attack people's pets to flag and try starting fights. But they never had the nerve to flag themselves, knowing they'd be ganked into the dirt. So you learned to ignore then and they'd sit outside the tavern looking stupid lol. This mentality of annoy a player into attacking you is as old as the hills, just as killing a tamer's pets is. You need a fairly level head to be a tamer in Fel and a freaky sense of humour is the best way to mess with these guys by a mile. They don't expect a tamer to laugh and turn the tables on them, trust me on that :D

    I know you aren't complaining about these things, however they are legal as is discording pets. What I'm saying is that if you change the disco thing, all that will happen is your flagging bard will either change tactics or do something else. A savvy player will always find ways to make your day miserable if you let them, which is why I don't tend to support changes like this. You have a choice of being frustrated in Fel and building up counts, or finding other ways to deal with issues without a dev intervention. You are only a victim while you agree to play that role, once you hop over to the dark side you look on bards in Fel with the attitude of "c'mon, just try it!" instead.

    Wenchy
     
  42. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    This part is especially true. I could see people transferring skills to make stealth bards.

    So besides being flaggable anywhere, it should be a guard-whackable offense to discourage these noobs. Discord ends upon death, doesn't it?
     
  43. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Disco takes a few seconds to wear off when it does the check to ensure the bard is within range and still alive. Just tested it. You get a few seconds before it'll drop allowing for you running off screen for a heal and stuff like that. If you were on the edge of guardzone I don't know whether a speedy rez from a co-griefer would enable you to return and keep that discordance up. But knowing how low on health pets can get during the invasion at times, a bard doesn't need that second burst. If you timed it well then no guard whacking is going to stop an ill-prepared tamer from losing a pet.

    But... and this is a big but. This pet death will only happen if they a) don't try removing themselves with a recall etc and b) if they stay logged in to UO. I underlined there because it's important to remember that tamers can still invis/hide and close UO to save that pet. They can recall from inside town too, hop somewhere safer. Which is why this defenceless tamer vibe that some try to create is just silly. I could easily hide and close UO in a second to stop my pet dying to a discording bard or any other bad situation. As can any other tamer. And while tamers can log mid battle and pull a pet to safety, I'm not going to support a change to discordance. The tools are there for tamers to protect their pets already.

    Wenchy
     
    #43 Wenchkin, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
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  44. Luvmylace

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    The only reason for this thread is that the griefer got griefed . Isn't it time to put this to bed ? Like you said to me ,Giggles ... "Get ressed and move on."
     
    #44 Luvmylace, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
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  45. The Zog historian

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    All very true. I recall when things start looking bad, so I haven't lost a pet more than a few times.

    Still, irrespective of the karma that Luvmylace is telling us about, I take the view that a tamer shouldn't have to worry about this. It should be like any aggressor/criminal flag in town, such that someone ressing the griefing bard will himself turn gray and be guard-whackable. I hadn't thought of this in years and am surprised the Devs never addressed it.
     
  46. Lythos-

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    Why would they? Fel players, when not totally forgotten, are constantly belittled by "fellow" players.

    Only now that it effects the tram crowd wanting to pillage our villages will it pop on the radar to get fixed.
     
  47. Goldberg-Chessy

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    How can you possibly be taken seriously in this discussion if you cant see the comparison?
    Have you actually lived in Fel or pvped in the past 16 years?
    All day long blues use walls and fields to help reds kill people and the blues cannot be counted. It has nothing to do with how you get around the wall or bypass the field.
    It personally is not a huge issue for me but neither is all this bs whining about bards and disco.
    If you are in Fel on your tamer and he is being negated you either deal with it or you log on a different character that cannot be negated in the same way and you go about your business. It is Felucca. You do not and should not have the luxury of playing whatever character you want in all scenarios. Its why you have multiple character slots.
    And if you cannot adapt or figure this out then you simply stay in Trammel. Its very simple.

    This whole, brand new whinefest about bards is a complete joke. Who in this thread has ever once complained about or had any issue with bards in the past? Nobody lol.
    Now you are all freaking out because one template(tamer)is not godmode in the latest event? Ridiculous.

    No way in the world should you get any new or special consideration because now you all of a sudden want to be greedy and play both facets on a specific template no less.

    *shakes head*
     
  48. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

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    You're right. I am just a greedy person who wants to play my tamer on both facets.
    I haven't lived in fel or pvp'd in the past 16 years.
    I don't have 4 houses in Fel and 10 red characters.
    I wouldn't know anything about it.
    *shakes head*
    /sarcasm

    Casting fields to block players and discording someones pets without repercussion are two different issues. How can you possibly expect to be taken seriously in this discussion if you think that they are comparable?
     
  49. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Goldberg, I otherwise would think it's "Don't complain, adapt," but it's still in town. We haven't had a need to address this for a long time because, well, when was the last time any Felucca towns were invaded?
     
  50. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

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    I was unaware of this. Thanks! Off to Fel!
     
    Zosimus likes this.
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