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Is it all bad if Magincia became Luna?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Let's say Magincia does become Luna, in some sense, with the rebuilding.

    It doesn't necessarily have to, but let's say it does.

    Is that really all bad?

    What this means, among other things, is that the nexus of commerce shifts back to one of the main cities, one of the Virtue Cities (though of course Magincia strayed from Humility into Pride), one of the older cities.

    Further, as I recall the reason Magincia was said to have gotten rich enough to be as Prideful as it was, was commerce. So it's not like the city doesn't have commerce in its past. In Ultima lore, Magincia became the Humility-based New Magincia, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to here. And further, not like it won't. It may well. If it doesn't, I can see roleplaying potential in the tension between a city reaching back to its Prideful past and attempting to build a Humble future at the same time.

    So, if Magincia did become the new Luna....Why is that necessarily bad?

    Yes, it's an honest question, I am genuinely curious.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I dont see it as a problem at all. If we do away with venders then their needs to be something to draw people there or its just another empty city that may look cool but after the first couple of times seeing it what would be the reason to come back?
     
  3. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    Mm.

    I am vain. I would prefer a return to the opulent and lavish metropolis - full of decadence and human sin - than ...this.
     
  4. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Like quite alot over the past 3 or 4 years, yet another vision seems to have gone in acompletely different direction.

    Whatever Magincia may become under this system (which holds little to no interest for me at this point as I have NO desire to move my main house or ability to move my secondary house), it won't be the New Magincia that Ultima people know and was hinted at by Draconi.

    More and more I wish there were a way to rewind back to about 2006 and somehow be able to see what would have happened if the original visions of the devsat that time were able to be fulfilled (KR being not tied to the tile system, SA being KR-based, New Magincia being rebuilt as a Humble town, what were thepurpose of some of the older event items such as the Ophidian items before they just became "cleanup fodder", etc).

    And once the spots in Magincia are all taken (assuming they are), then what? That's what I wonder... what entices the town to be a "player run town" from that point forward (outside of the garden)?
     
  5. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Simple answer; it means either the Bane Event wasn't winnable in any meaningful sense, we end up with a tainted city no matter what, and everything we've done for the past year was completely worthless outside of rare collecting... or the Dev team simply don't have any understanding at all about how to genuinely involve true Ultima Lore back into Ultima Online, because the design choices expressed are really cloth-eared.

    The first possibility is to me is the worst, because every shard as far as I am aware has leaned more pro-Virtue outside of the initial Ophidian - Bane fight; and my shard Europa is almost pure Virtue, never as yet losing a city to the Bane. But after months of holding faith with the narrative and fighting boring town invasions, to be told "Sorry, this is the plan we had all along, now plant some flowers for a month to get your name on it" is just... just... I can't even find the words, at least polite ones, sorry.

    The personal interactions I've had with Messanna at least tell me they do care about the player base; but I just think that, in a professional sense, they've completely missed the Magincia boat. And I'm personally disappointed in that.
     
  6. Luc of Legends

    Luc of Legends Seasoned Veteran
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    Honestly yes.

    But i doubt that it will. Why? Cause every shop wouldn't be in fingers reach. Luna makes thing too easy. All NPC shops in what a 20x20 area.

    I get that people dont have time to run around and such so it is easier. Reminds of a Shopping district or such. hehe
     
  7. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    Luna to me is not a city, but more of a crowded vendor auction house. I have no clue what their plans are but I would feel the devs would announce before the raffle about the houses and conditions placed on the housing.

    Did it matter if they just rebuilt Magincia to a new city or back the way it was and left it be without any player housing? Nobody really ever uses or visits the cities in the game.

    There could be a fix for all cities. Add a player market to each city and have a limit on vendors. Now we really dont want to do that because players would cry foul and dont change the game. Well the game has changed many times over. Something has to give. If ease and convenience is the major issue then Luna will stay Luna and most players will shop there only. So Magincia wont be much of an issue.

    If players dont want Magincia to be a Luna 2 then the best option that vendors cant not be placed on the housing. If players dont like that option then they shouldnt buy a raffle ticket for plots.
     
  8. canary

    canary Guest

    Each city should have its own quests and niche.
     
  9. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    per the video, Magencia is just the First to be player driven - Maybe Every city will be a Luna clone over time.
     
  10. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    I agree with Zosimus - Luna is not a city, it's just some npcs and a bunch of really ugly houses with way too many vendors that lag even my decently fast connection for a few seconds. There is nothing about it that says "UO" or "Ultima" to me. If you could pick one thing that is the least UO or Ultima-like in the game, I would point to Luna. It feels like it was done out of convenience and somehow seemed like a good idea at the time, like Trammel, without major thought put into the long-term impact, like Trammel.

    If they do some kind of auction house thing, that would go a long ways towards diminishing it, especially if they kept any auction houses out of it and put them in the old cities. I was against the auction house idea at first, but I really like the thought of it now, especially if it's only in a few of the old cities. It would diminish the power of Luna vendors, and it would give people more of a reason to visit those cities.

    Magincia is supposed to be more humble after the rebuild. Can you imagine a humble city that is filled with a lot of vendors selling items that would easily wipe out the bank accounts of any players who haven't been around for a while?
     
  11. Magincia is supposed to be more humble after the rebuild. :confused:

    I know, I know ... was said to be, was supposed to be ... yeah yeah.

    I'm questioning the word: Humble.

    I strode through the world looking for a humble man ...
    yet everyone I approached and asked
    Informed me: Me sir? why no sir, I am but another man ...

    Did you build this city sir?
    Me sir? why no sir, I am but another workman amongst many ...

    I began to wonder about my assumptions ...
    If I can't find a single humble man ...
    How shall I recognize a city built by them?

    I still believe that more than one may exist
    I am humbled by my failure to find them though
    or am I humble to admit it?
    Is e'en that NOT humility?
    to seek affirmation from others?

    hmmmm :sad4:
     
  12. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I kinda thought this too. Something that encouraged town interaction that made the town flourish: Something like library donations (utilizing quest or town interaction.. no turn-ins) that would cause the town to build more structures. The new buildings would grant bonuses to somewhat humility related skills and systems like herding, fishing. gardening, karma gain, meditation, cooking(?).. maybe even taming. And really drag it out. You could spend months helping the city raise a new building and unlock a new bonus.

    The queen loyalty system was pretty interesting but not in depth. I'd like to see them implement a similar tiered citizenship system. Something simple like Nuetral >> sympathizer >> citizen >> Champion. Tie it to the system I outlined above and give stronger bonus' to the higher tiers of citizenship.

    I even thought up a plant BOD system (based on the four generations of plants we have now) that didn't rely on skill but on citizenship to decide what percentages of BODs dropped by generation or exceptional/non-exceptional quality. Heh LBODs = A bouquet from a set of various plants. The system giving rewards related to gardening.

    Take it outside of the game a bit and unlock a custom Magencia themed EC UI for those that made it to champion status. Occasionally hold em event there and tie the EM spawned critters to the loyalty system as killing Abyss creatures builds queen loyalty. Speaking of EM events, in addition to item drops for all as they are now, allow champions to cut up fallen enemy corpses for a special hued skull trophy named ofter the slain mob. That would give residents of the shard the opportunity to take away something special, or make xsharders work hard to build loyalty for the events. There are a lot of really cool things they could have done with this place.

    I was really surprised there would be any player housing in Magincia at all. We haven't seen the whole system yet. But if housing lotto is the marquee billboard item then it is a little disappointing.

    I'm still hoping they roll out a use for the humility virtue with this.
     
  13. Dannyboy

    Dannyboy Guest

    I like Gheed's post

    I'm not going to get my hopes up, unless they implement something drastically different or some features that we have not heard about yet, then I don't really see how it's going to be different than luna.

    I don't hate Luna, I think a lot of it is stupidly over priced but there have always been vendors like that. In the thread recently about what hooked people on UO, a lot of people brought up the days where there was always a smith doing repairs and the community was more close.

    So if we could ever get back to that, even if it would never be quite on the same magnitude of the glory days, it would be a great thing.

    Though if it were to ever happen I think the community would have to make as much as an effort as the devs, maybe if we could get these plots to the people who do the things like run the auctions and events, the role players and big guilds and make it a hub of activity again.

    Bonuses for using the smithy there, kind of like the bonus for using the soul forge and other incentives for players to be there would be great too.
     
  14. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    It won't. The guy who coded the majority of the search site scripts you see today doesn't play anymore. So luna it shall stay.
     
  15. Lord Raven

    Lord Raven Seasoned Veteran
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    My two cents on Luna and Maginica...

    I think that in luna there should be some "building codes" to prevent the tricks where vendors hover over sidewalks, and to encourage buildings that actually look decent, not just a big plot with a bunch of vendors sitting on it. (A pet peeve of mine). I don't think that there is a problem with having Luna as a big shopping mall, but maybe folks should have to pay rent for their plots?

    As for Maginica. I would hate to see it open to housing in some random fashion. I like the idea of it being an RP/Player town so maybe the devs could lay down the basic infrastructure like roads, public buildings, landmarks and then folks could place houses in designated plots (with specific size limits). Maybe even designate certain streets residential only where vendors could not be placed. Or have a central square where folks from town could place vendors in a public area?
     
  16. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Wouldn't worry about Mag. Same cries of Oooh Nooos came about with the way the Tuko city looked. The boards fill with the devalue of Luna housing while we waited for plots placement for Tuko. Not that Tuko was bad in design. It should off been toe to toe with Luna. The fact that Tuko failed to become Luna like should of been the warning sign. The fast vannishing vendor houses in Tuko leading to game population dropping. Not that any of EA's leaders could relate their arse in fire having something to do with why it is so hot.
     
  17. I dont care what it becomes. Let it become. Thats the fun part of the game.

    Geez. I already see no other threads... worry about what does not exist.
    Complaints about raffle, gold sinks, the wealthy will get it all.


    Dang... we finally get significant content. Lets see what the player create. Like the OP says... is it really that bad if it became luna. I would add is it really that bad to just let it develop?


    See it grow.
     
  18. Hell's Ironworks

    Hell's Ironworks Seasoned Veteran
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    They should either build the town themselves and just give away the buildings in the raffle or have all players designs reviewed before accepting the build.

    Sad to say but most people have poor building skills / taste. Luna with a few exceptions is an eye sore , not to mention most brit banks....

    They should also limit the vendor count to 2 or 3 max.
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    To me it's all well and good but I could never own anything there. I already have a home.... Newcastle and Yew.

    I wouldn't leave them I don't care what was offered.

    As for Luna I loathe what it is.

    The reason Tokuno did not thrive.. because unlike Luna all the NPC's are far too spread out.
     
  20. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Regarding Cities with quests... wouldn't that be a perfect way to tie in the remaining Virtues, including Humility which is of course one of the unfinished ones? I mentioned elsewhere we could have had a city of NPCs you worked quietly and unselfishly for; but maybe it's a development time restraint, they really don't have enough staff to implement anything more complex than building on code they've already used (in this case, the house raffle)... but still, there were so many more obvious and fitting routes they could have gone. This one just violates the principle of Ultima Lore; whether it's supposed to be a Win or Loss condition, Magincia shouldn't be a city of growing plants to stick your name on them... because if we Won, we still lost the true soul of Magincia with this pandering to greed and eho, and if we are declared to have Lost what was the point of all that fighting and trying to follow the convoluted plot to work out the Virtuous path was, if we're just going to be ignored and presented with the way it has to be all the same?
     
  21. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    One thing that makes all of this incredibly tough is that there are only 22 plots. There has to be a lot more going on to make it feel player-run than just those 22 plots. I know Supreem or Mesanna said that there were unfinished parts of Magincia that were going to be developed later on, but they are basing the core of the player-run town on 22 accounts.
     
  22. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    With reading some posts, was in the HOC and rewatched the video again and my own thoughts I kind of forsee possible issues.

    1) The raffle for plots. Devs idea for a possible gold sink. Not all players have a ton of gold. Gold farmers and resellers do. So the Majority could be won by these players and resell them like they do Luna houses for extreme amount of gold or real life money. Even if a player spent $100 on gold to try to bid and still lose out to a gold seller that can afford to put as much gold on a plot and still wouldnt hurt them on gold.

    2) If the above would happen then the resellers and sites have a corner on the market. The players that reallly wanted the plots would be SOL. I think the devs could come up with a better idea to have a gold sinks then this.

    3) Why dont they do something similar as the Abyss house plots. Do a small quest and try for a plot. It would be more fair to at least most players trying to get a plot. This to me is the best possible solution.

    4) The devs have to keep there word and not make it a Luna 2. No vendors on housing allowed. If vendors are allowed, I say add a small market square where each owner of a house can at least place one vendor on the specified market square. Then all vendors are in one place. I think a market place in each city would be unique and cool for bringing life back to all cities.
     
  23. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    here is how we solve the issue once and for all:

    let's make the area Luna2.0 on crack, make it a billion times better than Luna.

    with me so far? K good.

    then!

    put in moongates on every single square tile of the place. where do the gates lead? Well to Brit West Bank of course!

    there, problem solved. :thumbup1:

    *chants*

    bring back Brit! (and delete that stupid deco that was placed).

    *nerd rages off*
     
  24. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    There was an idea kicked around pre-Trammel about instanced housing being used to deal with the housing problem. The idea being that certain houses/buildings in the cities are set aside, and there would be an instance tied to your account, and you'd be able to customize the interiors but not the exteriors. There is the issue of vendors, but a market of sorts was already mentioned. There was a lesser issue of friends/co-owners, but there were ways to work with that.

    Would be interesting to have something like that for Magincia - would certainly bring more people into Magincia than the 22 plots they have planned. You could have 10-20 people "sharing" houses and would bring people together more - plenty of people would like to live in an actual city and not the Luna Strip Mall.
     
  25. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I think my answer to this lies not so much in Magincia, but my hopes for Ultima Online:

    EVERY city should have room for player-run plots within them to give those cities that uniqueness that can only be attained from shard to shard. Imagine a house placed in Britain on Great Lakes that was truly a blacksmithy, run by a player, and set up with live shopkeepers and the like throughout the course of the day. On Atlantic, that might be someone's private residence... etc etc.

    Now, I know my true heart on this matter would keep them all RP oriented, or at least enhance the internal game itself...

    But the way I look at it is this: If EVERY city had some space set aside for player housing, then LUNA wouldn't be special anymore (which is a GOOD thing), and both lore and shopping could spread out beyond that tiny little sandstone rectangle.

    In short: Make them ALL Luna 2. Take and make each city (even Cove... blow away some of that useless mountain if necessary) have space, allow players to place there, and do what you're doing with Magincia for initial inception. Let players have a random chance to place there at first, and then it becomes free for all after a certain time. That way it's fair in the beginning, and then down to usual UO chance after that.

    And I haven't looked to see if 15x15 has the same storage as an 18x18, but if it doesn't and that's the max plotsize you're intending on allowing there, boost it to 18x18 storage please.
     
  26. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    None of them will be completely Luna 2 by their very nature, without a moongate and all of the major vendors within just a couple of screens, and the 3rd party stuff.

    They'll be Luna 2 due to sheer ugliness of the housing designs and the flood of vendors - many will be tempted to open up a branch vendor location.

    Then again, they could just do the auction house thing and that would instantly wipe out a lot of Luna's influence :thumbup1: Do a handful of auction houses in the old cities - Magincia, Britain, Skara Brae, Buc's Den, etc.