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Is it allowed to kill Champs with a guard call?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by imported_Drowy, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. We got raided a few times lately and a few times the raider took the champ away and let him get killed by guards. Once they didnt heal the champ, got him guardkilled and we got a 120 magery [​IMG]. I also seen a guild taking Lord Oaks to Delucia to get him guardkilled.
    I doubt this is legal, but would like to hear what others say.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    NO, but try to get a GM there in time to see it happen.
     
  3. this one i know... it is Bannable!
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    NO, but try to get a GM there in time to see it happen.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    HAHA you have to get a gm first let alone get them in game lol.
     
  5. isnt the players journal proof of who called the guards?

    hum stupid me... any npc will call guards... then we dont have a dead champ boss... we have an "accidental death"... doh...
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There is a limited amount of distance from the alter/champion spawn area that you are permitted to lure the Champs. Any further than that is illegal. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact distance. It's been several years since this was an issue for my guild.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    There is a limited amount of distance from the alter/champion spawn area that you are permitted to lure the Champs. Any further than that is illegal. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact distance. It's been several years since this was an issue for my guild.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    O!!!

    HI!!!!!! [​IMG]
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hi Nienna!
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yet another silly thing in UO that should be managed by game mechanics. In other games, if you pull a boss too far ("too far" having been decided on by the programmers), it goes home. They don't make players remember a bunch of silly, arbitrary rules for dragging mobs to other areas. Often players figure out how to do things, and are just being clever/creative, not wanting to break rules, then they find out from other players (because of course this sort of stuff is nearly impossible to find clear answers on from a documentation standpoint) that what they did was wrong.

    -Skylark
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Yet another silly thing in UO that should be managed by game mechanics. In other games, if you pull a boss too far ("too far" having been decided on by the programmers), it goes home. They don't make players remember a bunch of silly, arbitrary rules for dragging mobs to other areas. Often players figure out how to do things, and are just being clever/creative, not wanting to break rules, then they find out from other players (because of course this sort of stuff is nearly impossible to find clear answers on from a documentation standpoint) that what they did was wrong.

    -Skylark

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yep! This is something that should be handled by actual game mechanics, not by having to pass it down through oral tradition.

    Just to be clear though, it is against the rules. We just want to take the problem out of your hands.
     
  11. Its not like EA has anyone that enforces the rules so why would you even respond to this post?
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    to lets us know that the live team will fix the issue.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The winds of change are a blowin'....

    I expect we will see some changes in the enforcement area, soon.

    Hopefully! =)
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Its not like EA has anyone that enforces the rules so why would you even respond to this post?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am glad he did. It is always nice to have something clearly answered from an authoritative source, and even better when that source indicates that the need for having to remember all sorts of rules which may or may not be effectively enforced, is in the works to correct.

    -Skylark
     
  15. <blockquote><hr>

    to lets us know that the live team will fix the issue.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do you actually believe this?
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This team's track record is pretty good so far. *nods* It may take longer than we like, but things are changing.
     
  17. What has EA done in years to make you believe anything they tell us? One dev comes on stratics claiming things are going to change and you believe him? Until there is proof that EA has changed its ways it all a bunch of lies. How can you possible say this team has a good track record? Give me one example of anything positive theyve done and Im not talking some crap they write on stratics. Im talking about some change in game that has made a tangible difference.
     
  18. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    I would much rather see the dev team stop ghost cams and stealth cams that login and log out to see spawn status and relay the message in UOAM or whatever. But that has been going on for like 5+ years so I highly doubt they are going to do anything about the guard whacking of champs. Which I dont have a problem with at all btw.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    to lets us know that the live team will fix the issue.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do you actually believe this?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    When Draconi says it hell yes I do.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    They have done some pretty cool things for Siege, as well as the rest of the game. I am not going to get in a pissing contest with you here on Uhall. I have my reasons. There is much I would like to see happen. I am watching many friends and enemies drift away.

    I like what I see from this crew. You feel how ever you wish. *smiles*
     
  21. <blockquote><hr>

    Yet another silly thing in UO that should be managed by game mechanics. In other games, if you pull a boss too far ("too far" having been decided on by the programmers), it goes home. They don't make players remember a bunch of silly, arbitrary rules for dragging mobs to other areas. Often players figure out how to do things, and are just being clever/creative, not wanting to break rules, then they find out from other players (because of course this sort of stuff is nearly impossible to find clear answers on from a documentation standpoint) that what they did was wrong.

    -Skylark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't see how you can intentionally pull a champ to town to get it guard whacked and not realize you're doing something wrong. You didn't do the dmg to the champ; a guard did... you got the scrolls... clearly an exploit.
     
  22. zared of napa

    zared of napa Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    <blockquote><hr>

    to lets us know that the live team will fix the issue.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think Draconi did

    Just to be clear though, it is against the rules. We just want to take the problem out of your hands.
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Yet another silly thing in UO that should be managed by game mechanics. In other games, if you pull a boss too far ("too far" having been decided on by the programmers), it goes home. They don't make players remember a bunch of silly, arbitrary rules for dragging mobs to other areas. Often players figure out how to do things, and are just being clever/creative, not wanting to break rules, then they find out from other players (because of course this sort of stuff is nearly impossible to find clear answers on from a documentation standpoint) that what they did was wrong.

    -Skylark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't see how you can intentionally pull a champ to town to get it guard whacked and not realize you're doing something wrong. You didn't do the dmg to the champ; a guard did... you got the scrolls... clearly an exploit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The OP clearly suspected that getting a champ guard whacked might be deemed illegal. My point was not specifically about the legality of using guards to kill a champ but rather the absence of a simple control in the game that allows it, and could lend itself to other areas that aren't so obvious, but might still be deemed "exploit/illegal" to do.

    The very nature of all these word of mouth rules players are constantly telling each other, just drives me nuts, and I am one that will try to always follow rules when I know about them. We have rampant cases of people who are LOOKING for ways to cheat (and going full steam with it), and nothing stops them, and then we have the people who simply think they found a "neat" way to do something in the game, and they are made to feel they pulled the crime of the century, and ironically probably have action taken against them far more often than the blatant cheaters who know they are cheating. It is nonsense.

    What is an "obvious" exploit to one person, may not be to another, and after reading descriptions hereabouts for nearly 4 years, if even a fraction of them are true, I can guarantee you that GMs have the same subjective opinion on many of these things, and there can be as many different rulings as you have people.

    My feeling is that it is the programmer's job to narrow down the glaringly exploitable areas of a game, and fix things in a timely manner when they are identified, not hold players randomly accountable for not being psychic. Sure some people know they are doing something that is unintended by the programmers, but not everyone does.

    -Skylark
     
  24. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,322
    Likes Received:
    164
    To summarize: If you make a game where anything is possible, but then decide that 50% of everything that is possible is illegal and bannable, but then don't tell anyone specifically which 50% is the illegal and bannable 50%, and then don't have any clear means of enforcing that mysterious 50%'s illegality, and then when you do enforce illegality it is inconsistent and arbitrary, then it is not the best nor the most intuitive system.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    To summarize: If you make a game where anything is possible, but then decide that 50% of everything that is possible is illegal and bannable, but then don't tell anyone specifically which 50% is the illegal and bannable 50%, and then don't have any clear means of enforcing that mysterious 50%'s illegality, and then when you do enforce illegality it is inconsistent and arbitrary, then it is not the best nor the most intuitive system.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    MONEY SHOT!

    +1 to this post. :p
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    To summarize: If you make a game where anything is possible, but then decide that 50% of everything that is possible is illegal and bannable, but then don't tell anyone specifically which 50% is the illegal and bannable 50%, and then don't have any clear means of enforcing that mysterious 50%'s illegality, and then when you do enforce illegality it is inconsistent and arbitrary, then it is not the best nor the most intuitive system.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    MONEY SHOT!

    +1 to this post. :p

    [/ QUOTE ]

    QFT! Too bad Cogniac's summary won't fit in a Stratics sig. [​IMG]

    -Skylark
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, getting things/people Guard Wacked has been in the game since day-1.

    Remember when you would run around in FireField to rais you resistance, and some one would walk thru it? Well it was set up so that nothing would happen. Then someone figured out, if you let your Pet walk thru it, it made the caster of the firefield look as if he was attacking your pet, and, "you will regret thy crimes scumbag" and guard killed.

    What about people who lure a paragon Ki-Rin into the Harpy cave, and let the Ki-Rin kill everything in it? What about barriers that monsters can not get thru? Like Caves, Dungeons, server lines, ect. You see people every day, attacking, retreating to heal across the line, attacking, retreating...........

    Hell, even the fishing sections shows players getting the Leviaton onto land at bucs den, to fight it there, instead of being on a boat. And like others have said, How do you know where that invisible line is at?

    EA could alway made anything that is guard killed, vansish along with any items they had as loot. Then there would be no point in getting it into a guard zone.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    To summarize: If you make a game where anything is possible, but then decide that 50% of everything that is possible is illegal and bannable, but then don't tell anyone specifically which 50% is the illegal and bannable 50%, and then don't have any clear means of enforcing that mysterious 50%'s illegality, and then when you do enforce illegality it is inconsistent and arbitrary, then it is not the best nor the most intuitive system.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    MONEY SHOT!

    +1 to this post. :p

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is the most sensible statement I have ever read on Stratics.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>



    I don't see how you can intentionally pull a champ to town to get it guard whacked and not realize you're doing something wrong. You didn't do the dmg to the champ; a guard did... you got the scrolls... clearly an exploit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The OP clearly suspected that getting a champ guard whacked might be deemed illegal. My point was not specifically about the legality of using guards to kill a champ but rather the absence of a simple control in the game that allows it, and could lend itself to other areas that aren't so obvious, but might still be deemed "exploit/illegal" to do.


    -Skylark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The OP also stated that their spawn was raided and the RAIDERS lured the Champ to get guard whacked. The original guild doing the spawn still received scrolls because the damage they had done to the Champ had not been healed before the raiders had the Champ guard whacked.

    So the OP WASN'T guilty of any wrong doing.
     
  30. seems to me draconi posted that the Dev Team is starting to fight the cheats...

    you cant end the corruption and the cheating in a few days and one patch!

    and these days sure sound promising... go TEAM!

    (*looks for the folk with the pom-poms*)
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    To summarize: If you make a game where anything is possible, but then decide that 50% of everything that is possible is illegal and bannable, but then don't tell anyone specifically which 50% is the illegal and bannable 50%, and then don't have any clear means of enforcing that mysterious 50%'s illegality, and then when you do enforce illegality it is inconsistent and arbitrary, then it is not the best nor the most intuitive system.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Exactly! It's not intuitive, which means it takes away fun, and puts players at unnecessary risk.

    I think what we need is a thread about arbitrary game rules that should be handled by game mechanics.
    The fix for guardwhacking champspawns, btw, is slated for Origin in this publish.
     
  32. weird thought:

    If the champ is pulled into town... and it cant be guard wacked... then reds cant raid... best they can do is "red kill" the champ... weird isnt it!

    (special thanks to those in vent that have tutored me into all this slang and fell chaos)
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The OP also stated that their spawn was raided and the RAIDERS lured the Champ to get guard whacked. The original guild doing the spawn still received scrolls because the damage they had done to the Champ had not been healed before the raiders had the Champ guard whacked.

    So the OP WASN'T guilty of any wrong doing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Just to clarify, I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that they were guilty of wrong doing, only that they had enough suspicion that the procedure they observed was illegal, to ask for a definitive answer. The point was the general fuzziness of this whole sort of thing, where some things appear iffy to some people and not others.

    @Draconi: I suggest you start the "arbitrary game rules that should be handled by game mechanics" thread, as it is certain to get a lot more attention than if one of us players starts it.

    -Skylark
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    To second this, if you don't want to start a thread, feel free to send stuff like this as feedback. I'll keep an eye out for it.
     
  35. <blockquote><hr>

    NO, but try to get a GM there in time to see it happen.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You could as well try to pee in the Grand Canyon to fill it.
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Skylark, my response was directed at (I forget their name now) the other poster.

    I just included one of your quotes in the quotation (and there was a GOOD reason for it at the time but I've forgotten it now because my children are asking ridiculous questions and disturbed my thought).
     
  37. That's excellent news.

    I like the idea of an arbitray rules list, but I think it should reside on some official EA site. A vast majority of the people I know that play UO do not read stratics. Actually, quite a few of em think I'm silly because I do (or maybe for some other reason).

    Another issue is that if you have a "known bannable exploits" list, players can use the list to try to find exploits they don't already know about. I think that problem can be solved with generic statements such as "Using game mechanics to duplicate existing items will result in banning (the existing keyword to cover dupes, but not crafting...)"

    I think any list like this should be linked from the patch screen and there should be some kind of indicator when items have been added or modified. That way it's a lot harder for people to get banned for something they didn't know was bannable.
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    A huge arbitrary rule is no tolerance words. Why aren't they filtered either client or server side? Literally thousands of players have been suspended/banned because they said the wrong thing either in the heat of the moment or they simply didn't know the word was inappropriate.

    Now if someone purposefully avoids the filters then that is for a GM to handle.
     
  39. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    A huge arbitrary rule is no tolerance words. Why aren't they filtered either client or server side? Literally thousands of players have been suspended/banned because they said the wrong thing either in the heat of the moment or they simply didn't know the word was inappropriate.

    Now if someone purposefully avoids the filters then that is for a GM to handle.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I remember when Ronald McDonald on Baja was banned for saying "racial slurs" and "using derogatory terms for 'homosexual'".

    Funny times.
     
  40. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    A huge arbitrary rule is no tolerance words. Why aren't they filtered either client or server side? Literally thousands of players have been suspended/banned because they said the wrong thing either in the heat of the moment or they simply didn't know the word was inappropriate.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    I feel bad for the people that don't know the rules. And there's a lot of them that the average person just wouldn't know. Rules need to be out there and easily found for all. And if the rules change in any way we should be notified.
     
  41. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    <blockquote><hr>



    I think what we need is a thread about arbitrary game rules that should be handled by game mechanics.
    The fix for guardwhacking champspawns, btw, is slated for Origin in this publish.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    WOW this is absolutely unacceptable that the Dev team puts in a fix for this ASAP but has DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the ghost/stealth cams. Do you know why people get champs guard whacked?!? Its because on most shards there is a dominant pvp guild that is going to raid you in about 15 seconds once the Champ is up since they have **illegal items** that tell them these things. I would go into more detail but I fear the ban stick for mentioning the truth.

    For example, my friend is a member of a large pvp guild and in their UOAutomap network a character logs in at a spawn and says in UOAutomap 'Despise: 5 Red 4 White' and lists all the people it sees at that moment in time, then 5 minutes later once that account has logged off he would see 'City of the Dead: Not Active' and it cycles non stop and they wait till they see one just about done and raid with force.

    So I 100% encourage people to kill the champ anyway possible and I find it absolutely unacceptable for the dev team to make prompt changes to guard whacking issues when they ignore these other exploits. I think it goes without being said that the guard whacking benefits the 'non raiding' group of people much more than the raiding group as the OP stated. It should be universally accepted that most champs can easily be killed with a few experienced players its just if you can kill it before you get raided. Raids are often 5-10 people that together can kill a champ in under 5 minutes so I doubt they are eager to bring it to the guard zone where reds could then be whacked themselves for attacking the blues.
     
  42. do people really think that getting rid of automated ghost cams is going to stop people raiding when the champ pops? You know that before these cams, 3 people would go out and in 2 minutes they checked every single spawn? Most guilds still do this, it isn't hard.
     
  43. It also requires raiders to actually do something. The whole point of raiding spawns is getting the loot without doing the work. They're lazy... They're trying to get around doing anything except collecting loot and a lot of raiders would probably get bored with running around looking for a spawn and continually seeing spawns that aren't being done. At some point the actual playtime invested in scouting spawns will exceed the time it would take to do a spawn.

    I know they say that they only do it for the pvp, but that's silly. Champ spawn characters aren't pvp characters... raiding is like taking candy from a baby (sadly a lot of raiders still get owned by non pvp chars). Every time I've been raided has been when I was on foot with a non pvp char being attacked by at least 3 pvp chars. If these raiders were looking for good pvp, they wouldn't fight such pitched odds lol.

    Also, it's a lot easier to get a spawn done without getting scouted when the people scouting aren't automated.

    All that being said, I think it's lame to guardwhack champs. I've been script cammed many times, but I've never used this lame exploit and I don't think there's any justifiable reason to condone it. This exploit is almost as bad as using script cams imo. Script cams are more lame.
     
  44. Officerdg

    Officerdg Guest

    Draconi, if you are going to fix that then you need to also make it so that if someone raids a spawn they cant heal the champ then kill it so they get the scrolls. Thats also BS! I mean I dont need scrolls of any type at all but I do believe there is a rule about preventing or hindering someones progression in the game! What do you call it then if you get a huge dominating guild that can out number the smaller guilds and prevent anyone from doing a spawn to get the scrolls and PROGRESS further into the game?
     
  45. rolan69vw

    rolan69vw Guest

    So EA is about to fix this bug. its already in TC. How come they can act so quick on fixing this but they do nothing about ghost cams. who we all know run on illegal third party programs. I recently e-mailed Jeremy proposing an Idea where you could not log in at champ spanws. if this is done the ghost cam program will be useless since the way it works is it logs aghost in reports on the spanw, then logs out, logs another ghost in 5 mins later, reports on the spanw and so on(and they now res the ghost and hide it so you will spawn and you will have no idea they are camping it). We learned for from this bcs we managed to get a spy into the the guild that raides all spawns in Catskills. They have dommy accounts that are used just for ghost camping. so with 2 accounts they can monitor 14 spawns 24/7. Unfair isnt that. and its alll automated and it repots to UOAM. so every guild member sees the report. I was shocked when i heard how it worked. no wonder they could raid every spawn we did. thats [censored] up. If nothing is done about this soon. im done with UO.
    They should just make it that if you loged and timed out in a spawn you could you would be transported to the neares town on your next login. seems a easy fix and fair. I cant see any reason a fair UO player would like to log out at a champ spawn to then log back in. Sad to see how they fix minor things but dont fix issues that really take out of the game playing expirience of the Honest UO player.
     
  46. They probably already had a fix in for the guard whacking champs, but hadn't put it through QA yet. This thread probably changed the priority level of putting the fix through QA...

    That's my guess at least.
     
  47. i dunno what draconi would call it, but i would call it fair. You KNOW that you can get raided. You can always join a bigger guild, form an alliance, or simply learn how to pvp.

    Champ spawn whacking and raiding a spawn aren't even close to being similar.
     
  48. rolan69vw

    rolan69vw Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    i dunno what draconi would call it, but i would call it fair. You KNOW that you can get raided. You can always join a bigger guild, form an alliance, or simply learn how to pvp.

    Champ spawn whacking and raiding a spawn aren't even close to being similar.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Im dont complain about raids, they are perfectly legal (and fun). what is not fair nor legal is running third party programs to report on the spawns, what we call Ghost Cams. These programs run unatendedly(which is illegal) and multi client(which is also illegal). Interesting how EA attends this matter so quickly yet they have done nothing about Ghost Cams for years. It is pretty lame.

    Rolan
     
  49. <blockquote><hr>

    They probably already had a fix in for the guard whacking champs, but hadn't put it through QA yet. This thread probably changed the priority level of putting the fix through QA...

    That's my guess at least.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe. But that kind of behaviour exists already for other monsters, so the solution exists already somewhere