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Is It Illegal To....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Connor_Graham, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. I heard from a friend of mine recently that a certain Pacific player went on the rampage about something found on some vendors & bulletin boards. So I was wondering, since EA/Mythic says selling UO items & gold is ok with them, is it illegal to put a message on either a book on a vendor or on a bulletin board stating simply:

    Selling Gold ICQ XXXXXXXXXX


    That's it. No website listed or anything else. Just that simple statement?
     
  2. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Links are illegal, selling stuff for cash is illegal and advertising as such is illegal.
     
  3. jfkeach

    jfkeach Guest

    Not only is it legal, but should be how it should be done. People would choose to open the vendor and the book, and people would choose to read the bulletin board. You are NOT forcing it down their throats like a certain spammer in LUNA on Atlantic.
     
  4. Since when is selling gold illegal? It's always been legal as far as EA/Mythic is concerned. Did something change recently that I missed?
     
  5. That's always been my understanding, but it seems some are saying it's not.
     
  6. Fink

    Fink Guest

    If it's on your bulletin board, ban them & delete the message.

    If it's on their bulletin board, there's probably nothing that will be done about it regardless of legality.
     
  7. Uh....what?
     
  8. Fink

    Fink Guest

    If they're leaving messages on your board and you don't want them to, you can ban the poster and delete the message.

    Or are you the one leaving the messages?
     
  9. I'm meaning that the bulletin board belongs to you and the message that's left is one you put on there yourself. No website listed, just the simple statement "Selling Gold ICQ XXXXXXXXX".
     
  10. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Ah, not sure, but I refer to my previous statement that nothing will be done about it either way.
     
  11. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    Gold selling has always been illegal in UO....... always has been,nothing new.

    I wish EA would rule this game with an iron fist when it comes to RMT/scripting and cheating in general.

    :bdh:
     
  12. Once again, since when? Haven't there been several "official" statements saying otherwise?
     
  13. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    Not that I`m aware of. I`ve played since about 2 months before Tram and to the best of my memory I never remember OSI/EA or Mythic stating that it was acceptable to sell gold for RL money.

    No recollection of a statement because I don`t think there ever was one. Even when UO was hot on Ebay it was illegal. Its always been illegal. Ask the devs maybe? I`m sure they would give ya the answer you seek.
     
  14. Potgut

    Potgut Seasoned Veteran
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    I remember before tram, even using the "world wide web" to look for guides for UO was considered cheating and not acceptable by OSI
     
  15. Serine

    Serine Guest

    This is not WoW .
     
  16. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    Doesn`t make anything she said wrong. Might not be WoW but its all still illegal. :dunce:
     
  17. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    But it is still the truth. Selling or advertising the sale of ingame items for cash is illegal.. there's just not much that's done about it. Its been in the rules at least as long as i've been playing.... go check if you don't believe me.
     
  18. Schuyler Bain

    Schuyler Bain Lore Master
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    I think this post is proof positive that there is still confusion on the matter. I think Mitzlplik_LS has a brilliant idea to have this question posted on the "Ask the Devs" forum. We can get a current and "definite" answer.

    It is my understanding that it (Selling accounts, gold or items for real world money) is not sanctioned by EA or Mythic and I know what the Stratics policy is on the matter. That said I don't think anything can or will be officially done about it from a legal standpoint.

    *EDIT - before someone tries to get cute and say that "EA/Mythic sells items for real world money and you can officially transfer accounts between two players for a fee..." this is true, but the money goes to the "owners" of the pixels and is within their right and likewise the transfer fee is paid to the game developer/producer not between the account owners.
     
  19. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Again.. it and the bit about links to unapproved external websites as names, in books or on objects with changable names, in conversation, by spoken word, or in profiles (stuff like Stratics and the various EM webpages are safe) being illegal should all be in the rules..
     
  20. Question submitted. I'd really like to know the official stance on it, taking into account no websites are named or addresses listed.
     
  21. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Links are illegal, selling stuff for cash is illegal and advertising as such is illegal.

    2 out of 3 correct.

    Selling stuff for cash in UO is NOT and has never been illegal. The devs have always taken a hands off approach (neither condemn nor condone) as they should.
     
  22. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    for those that don't care to search for the answer:

    from here

    10. Rules of Conduct.

    You may violate the Terms of Service if you:

    <snip>

    • Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.
    <snip>
     
  23. Problem is trying to find anything in the very outdated playguide. Using search with every possible keyword I can think of returned no results that were applicable.
     
  24. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Not recently. :(

    I think it was Mitzlplik who mentioned Ask the Devs.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I thought I remembered this somehow.

    Just because you're specifically allowed to sell your gold or other in-game items doesn't mean you get to pursue RL commercial activities in-game.

    -Galen's player


     
  26. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No.

    -Galen's player
     
  27. Schuyler Bain

    Schuyler Bain Lore Master
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    Apologies to you both. My original post has been updated.
     
  28. Actually in either the RoC or the T&C for UO you should find that you don't have the right to sell anything in game. It clearly states that anything you acquire in game does not belong to you, it belongs to EA/Mythic (OSI has not owned the rights to Ultima since BEFORE UO). Therefore selling items from UO is selling things that do not belong to you. If you don't own it, you don't have the right to sell it without express consent. EA/Mythic (IMO) haven't gone after people because it would be difficult and costly to prosecute the offenders.

    So, in my opinion, is it legal to sell items in game? No. Are you going to get action-ed for it? Probably not.
     
  29. Lady Michelle

    Lady Michelle Sprite Full SP
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    No its not illegal to sell gold for real cash, but its illegal to advertise in game your selling gold.
     
  30. Ceno of MT

    Ceno of MT Seasoned Veteran
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    Actually it has always been illegal.
    You cannot sell UO property that doesnt "belong" to you. Yes we pay for the game but really whatever we own inside the game still "belongs" to UO. Think of when people sold houses on eBay when they actually were worth something. If you were caught doing so you were banned.

    Same goes with gold, because since it is their pixels, you cant sell it to make a profit off them. This is why you can buy items from UO, but you aren't allowed to sell them for your personal gain, otherwise UO loses business. Its common business practice.

    Another great example is Microsoft, even though I have windows on my computer if you really read the terms I dont "own" it, they do.


    UO may take a hands off approach about it, but that doesnt mean it isnt illegal. Just because I didnt do a complete stop at a stop sign while driving doesnt mean a cop will give me a ticket. Some cops do, some cops dont.
     
  31. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    However this has been done for YEARS and even the devs and former community reps have stated that it is NOT illegal in UO to sell ingame items for cash.

    And quite frankly, if you wanted to make the legal argument, ownership never leaves EA/Mythic/etc. If you REALLY wanted to play semantics, what the sellers are really charging is a "transfer fee", not the sale of actual ownership.

    Now if I were to take the ingame graphics of UO, devise a "graphics package" of that pixel art and then sell them or use them in a game of my own for profit, then YES, I have in effect taking ownership and sold illegally.

    Selling gold/items in UO has NEVER been actionable, nor should it be.

    Exploiting and duping to obtain the items to sell, THAT is what is actionable.
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    No gold selling,product selling is not illegal. Simple as everyone of them place in there statement they don't own the product they are just selling there time. Ea still owns the product and the person who holds on to it will trade you the product for cash or something else. Just like you can buy cash products for gold from ingame you can also do the opposite. It's like If I offer you my computer for 3 house teleporters, in essence I am trading real life value for virtual gains even though neither of us own the virtual item so really it's the privelege of holding such virtual item till I deem to trade again,loss it,or EA shuts down servers.
    Then there is the issue that different laws apply to different countries. If your individual country ban such virtual goods trade then that is on you and not EA. Most likely if they did that in that country people would break it anyway. "How many people download music,video,buy cig online,speed a little,**** by a tree or car when the situation calls for,etc.. type situations" So if it was illegal in there country I doubt they would even care.

    he only thing they don't allow is advertisement and more recentely web links for sales. Even advertisement is not looked at unless it's a link. It was allowed during ebay and would still be allowed during this day if ebay didn't close it doors at virtual goods because of other game.
     
  33. I dislike to come out and expressly state when someone is wrong. But you're wrong. And in the quest to be right, I present the following Link with the following information.

    Firstly, in the Terms of Service agreement, under section 5 (respectively titled Rights and Responsibilities) under paragraph (c):

    This clearly states that the items do not belong to you. Period.

    Further to this, under the same section (section 5 respectively titled Rights and Responsibilities) under paragraph (d):

    In bold, means that a lawyer or a law firm, or the law would interpret that you don't have the right to use the service, through your own time or not, for anything other then game-play. I would then assume that you don't have the right to use the game to make money, since making money would be something other then game-play.

    And to back up this point, under Section 11 (respectively titled General Provisions):

    I think that should be pretty straight forward.
     
  34. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Provide me an instance of someone being banned strictly for selling gold or ingame items.

    It has NEVER happened. Exploiting? Absolutely, thus why you see the burning rubble of houses, but never has anyone been banned for RMT activity alone.

    Real Money Transactions have never been a bannable offense in UO, in fact UO was one of the first notable instances of RMT activity on Ebay (back YEARS ago).

    Ebay has since banned the sale of ingame items on the whole for ANY game, however UO has NOT made the activity a bannable one even after being folded into the Mythic banner under Marc Jacobs who was VERY anti-RMT.

    Edit: I am looking for the last time a Dev has specifically commented on this issue, but having trouble due to the comings and goings of devs and the lack of earlier archived posts due to the board crash a while back. However as a 12 year vet who has been here just about as long as I have been in UO, I can attest that it HAS been addressed and while ingame advertising for RMT actions is bannable, actual out of game selling is not.

    Edit 2: A quick Google search shows the posting blurb from Lum/Scott Jennings on his later site Broken Toys about Ebay banning RMT auctions from games. the main quote: Note that UO is one of the few MMOs that permit RMT
     
  35. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    We are not lawyers and I only know EA stance in the matter. Other than TOS cannot stand in a cout of law anyway. Interpertation of a subjuct can be bent in many ways. All I know if we knew each other and I said I'll give you my home in UO if you gave me lets say something in WOW or 10 dollars or bought me lunch or something else that just can't be stoped. Then thinking about how Ultima online sold products at a discount for resale to individuals is also another reasoning of there approval.
    Next subject and the most important I put in is that the sellers do not advocate that they are selling the product they are just trading the product just like every single vender or trade window activity in UO. The only thing anybody is paying for is for the sellers own time in aquiring the product or you can put it as the right for him to trade something in game anybody has the option to not trade with whoever is selling because they want non virtual item for virtual item.
    If there were no venders and trade windows and all items gold are character specific then a case can be made but as trade is freely allowed and as no money trades are being conducted in EA offices then it's perfectly acceptable.
    Either way no matter how much we want to pick at points EA officialy stated it's ok by them in there own words in the past so thats pretty much where it comes down to.
     
  36. You can argue the facts all that you like, both the last two posters in fact, but just because a law or a rule is not enforced, that DOES NOT make it legal. That is a FACT.

    Our societies are littered with laws that are no longer enforced, but are still in effect. For examples:

    - Alabama:
    1. It is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while operating a vehicle.

    - Alaska:
    1. It is illegal to push a live moose out of a moving airplane.

    - California:
    1. Community leaders passed an ordinance that makes it illegal for anyone to try and stop a child from playfully jumping over puddles of water.

    - Connecticut:
    1. You can be stopped by the police for biking over 65 miles per hour.
    2. You are not allowed to walk across a street on your hands.

    - Florida:
    1. Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the salon owner.
    2. A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.
    3. If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.
    4. It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a swimsuit.
    5. Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.
    6. Any form of sexual contact other than missionary position is a misdomeanor. (This is still a law. There have been several cases of people being brought up on these charges in the past 5 years alone. If the police enter a home with a warrent for some other crime and catch the 'culprits' in action, they can, and are, brought up on those charges.)

    - Illinois:
    1. It is illegal for anyone to give lighted cigars to dogs, cats, and other domesticated animal kept as pets.

    - Indiana:
    1. Bathing is prohibited during the winter.
    2. Citizens are not allowed to attend a movie house or theater nor ride in a public streetcar within at least four hours after eating garlic.

    - Iowa:
    1. Kisses may last for as much as, but no more than, five minutes.

    - Kentucky:
    1. By law, anyone who has been drinking is "sober" until he or she "cannot hold onto the ground."
    2. It is illegal to transport an ice cream cone in your pocket.

    - Louisiana:
    1. It is illegal to rob a bank and then shoot at the bank teller with a water pistol.
    2. Biting someone with your natural teeth is "simple assault," while biting someone with your false teeth is "aggravated assault."

    - Massachusetts:
    1. Mourners at a wake may not eat more than three sandwiches.
    2. Snoring is prohibited unless all bedroom windows are closed and securely locked.
    3. An old ordinance declares goatees illegal unless you first pay a special license fee for the privilege of wearing one in public.
    4. Taxi drivers are prohibited from making love in the front seat of their taxi during their shifts.

    - Nebraska:
    1. A parent can be arrested if his child cannot hold back a burp during a church service.

    Just because these laws are outdated and silly, it does NOT MAKE THEM LEGAL. You may fight FACTS all you like, but until YOU provide the people with FACTS that it is legal to sell items for RL money then you are WRONG.

    I have provided you with facts. The burden of proof is on you. Saying that no one has ever been banned for it is not proof, it is speculation. You don't know if anyone has ever been banned for selling goods outside of the game. You don't think anyone has, but you don't know for sure.

    Once again, just because EA/Mythic has not (or may have not) banned anyone for the sale of in game items outside of the game, it does NOT make it legal to do so.

    As such, my point stands. It IS illegal (by the proof which I have submitted) to sell in game items for real life currency. However, it is unlikely you're going to be banned for it. PROVE ME WRONG, OR YOU'RE NOT RIGHT.
     
  37. canary

    canary Guest

    Thank you for the Oh so lovely discourse over semantics.

    Bottom line is: yes, it may be 'illegal' but you'll never see it enforced.

    Besides, its not as if the GMs really know their own rules anymore. They haven't for years.
     
  38. Ken of Napa

    Stratics Veteran

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    LoL ! All you jail-house lawyers can say whatever you want. The fact of the matter is The Developers said at the last town hall meeting that selling gold and items in UO is not illegal.

    Now they could always change that, but the last word from the people that make the game is "It's not illegal". They indicated that one of the reasons it was not illegal, is the difficulty they would have inforcing that rule.
    :mf_prop::mf_prop:
    :popcorn:
     
  39. mandosa-nice

    mandosa-nice Guest

    Sorry but selling gold, item or accounts for real money are not illegal ! Is only illegal to make a publicity ingame in public...

    I play since 1998 and i sell, buy alot and never banned lol

    Ah and UO don't use only the US law, but the international law too, the most bigger part of the player are not American, sorry for you...

    The ebay affaire is only about the new tax in the usa, you can always buy and sell on the deutch, spain, japan ebay ;)
     
  40. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You should know that many of the RL laws you cite are probably urban legends.

    I did a search once for some of these once many years ago, using databases, and none of the ones I searched for in any State actually existed. Some probably do but none of the ones I searched for did.

    As to UO, nothing that you linked to leads me to believe you're banned from selling in-game things for RL money. By contrast, I've heard Town Hall recordings where they specifically have authorized such sales as long as you obtained the items legitimately in-game.

    Having said that? They own this game and could change their minds at any time, with or without notice.

    Either by changing the terms of service, or re-interpreting the existing terms of service.

    Or both!

    What is explicit, though, is a ban on using the game for commercial activity.

    As anyone knows though, whether or not one is actioned upon for something is an entirely separate question.

    -Galen's player


     
  41. altarego

    altarego Guest

    It's not that they're legend. It's that they're municipal ordinances specific to towns or perhaps even counties. It's a bit misleading to say they are state laws, for while many of them may exist within that state, they are not state statutes.
     
  42. It's not true without proof. I posted my sources. Can you provide me with a video of the town hall meeting? Being that my sources are in print, and yours (if they exsist) were verbal, I would go by my sources IF I were ever concerned about being banned for this.
     
  43. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Lmao, wrong.


    But anyways. Advertising is for cash sales is illegal. Selling items for cash isn't.
     
  44. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    .... / Mind blown / Thread.
     
  45. Cazzador

    Cazzador Guest

    I'm not a (shark) but just my 2 cents.

    There is a difference between Ultima Online Game (Characters and pixel etc) and The Ultima Online Software. Both of them are property of EA/Osi etc. But I believe that when they are saying you can't change anything in game they mean sofware where you can't use any part of their scripting to copy make another game and sell it or hack it etc. Now when people are selling online Game gold and Pixel art they are not selling any part of their game they are selling either their time or the privilege of you as buyer to be able to obtain what they have in their posession as a trade not that you will own it outside the game in any way just for you to have it in game. And as far as I know reading these forums for many many years I can confidently say that trading (buying or selling) Pixel art is legal.
    Now the case is closed. Please come again....Who has Spoken. And you may wonder Who, Who is. But Of course its just Who!
     
  46. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    ;) correct
     
  47. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The answer is...

    1. Selling gold, etc. in UO is legal, though illegal in most other MMOs

    2. Advertising for websites, IM accounts, etc., publicly in the game for purposes other than community or help purposes, is against the rules.
    In other words, you can tell someone your ICQ, AIM or web page for your gold selling operation by handing them a book, or telling them in party, guild or alliance chat...
    -but it is illegal to drop books as ads, spam the address in public areas, or spam it over global chat channels. (edit) - and at last check, it was also illegal to put said ads/addresses in your character profile was well.

    3. Stratics itself has a "no Real-money-transaction" rule because it covers multiple MMOs, and many of the illegal sellers for other games also have UO operations (or vice-versa), and links in a UO forum could end up breaking rules for WOW or other games, if we made it game-specific. As a result, it is easier to state and enforce a blanket ban for all games.
     
  48. Ken of Napa

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    You're kidding, right?

    The "sources" you quoted consist of some old urban myth laws, and a copy of the legalieze that UO and every other software manufacturer plasters on their product to keep people from making unauthorized copies of same. This with your thoughts as to what it means is your proof?

    The statement I refered to, was posted on this forum after the last Town Hall. I'm not even sure if it's still on here after all the things that were lost on the forums, and I'm not going to search for it. To be honest I don't really care if you believe me or not. I know what was said and you have no proof (other than you're own legal opinion of Origin's Legalieze) to support your theory that selling Gold is illegal.

    You're welcome to believe anything you want, I will put my trust in what the makers of the game say.

    ::Basara has posted the only facts that matter::
     
  49. Potgut

    Potgut Seasoned Veteran
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    It's the same idea as if you paid someone to level up your characters for you
     
  50. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    How is it same? This isn't WoW. Paying for gold/items is hardly the same as someone else logging into your account and having them do all the work to train your character.