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Is this an exploit? Or just creative thinking?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Prince Caspian, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. So yesterday I pop over to Doom, into the Dark Guardian's Room. It's occupied, as it often is. So I start to recall out, and the dude comes out and asks if I want to buy some demon bones.

    I decline, but notice that he has a Guide with him (Personal Attendant), and ask what was up with that.

    "It makes double the DGs spawn."

    "Really?"

    "Yep."

    I always knew there more folks in that room, the more Dark Guardians show up. Well, later on, I pop back in when the room is vacant, and give it a go.

    True enough, I got 4 Dark Guardians to appear instead of 2 when I used the guide. I went about chopping them down with Mischief Maker, and soon my pack was bursting with gold, maps and bones.

    So I was making tons of moolah, but I'm feeling a twinge of guilt here. Is this an exploit? Or just a creative use for the Personal Attendant?

    "I feel, if you have the opportunity to use an advantage, it is your duty as an American to use it!" -- Mr. Burns, The Simpsons
     
  2. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    I hope its not a bug because I walk around with my attendant allot and dun feel like being banned if im doing the bones.
     
  3. I usually just summon a Dark Wolf with the Necro on my dexxer, but yeah, people have been using summons and other things to spawn additional Guardians for a long time now. If the attendant is invulnerable, then yeah, it might be considered an exploit.
     
  4. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Nope, not an exploit. Just understanding how the mechanics work.

    It works both ways, if a player can't handle the increased spawn, he'll be cut to shreds very quickly.
     
  5. MoneyMaker

    MoneyMaker Guest

    When you enter that room, it does a check on the number of occupants.
    It does not check to see if they are actually players, summoned, attendant, etc.
    But as far as a exploit? hmm that could be a fine line there. Like harley said " if you can't handle it, it will tear you to shreds."
    since the attendant is invulnerable and cannot attack, i would have to say, No, it is not a exploit anymore than using a summon or pet, who can actually be attacked and will attack.
    Hope that helps to allievate some of that guilt that your feeling. :D
     
  6. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    It's a Feature!

    :);)
     
  7. MoneyMaker

    MoneyMaker Guest


    :eek: *gasps* Naughty, naughty!!! Uriah playing hooky to post in the forums lol.:D
     
  8. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I find it funny that some of the people that said using items to get into Vamp form and then taking them off was an exploit, don't think that this is an exploit.
     
  9. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And after all, I could go to the Lich Lord room in Covetous for better spoils, I just risk getting killed a lot more often.

    The only thing that strikes me as shady is, as posted, the attendant is invincible.

    But hey, if I was camping Swoop (which is perfectly legal) I'd make a lot more money anyway, so I figure this isn't hurting the game that badly, especially since I'm a pauper in this game with only like 5 mill to my name....
     
  10. Heh... I gotta agree with you on that!
     
  11. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    This is by its very nature an exploit. A completely harmless one but an exploit. You are exploiting faulty game mechanics to achieve some end to your benefit. The faulty mechanic being the game is unable to recognize the difference between a player or pet vs an invuln herald.

    Please mods shut this thread down and OP submit a bug report.
     
  12. MoneyMaker

    MoneyMaker Guest

    I can understand you wanting a bug report submited, but why everytime we have a harmless discussion about a game mechanic, which i might add, most of the population of UO already knows about, someone wants the thread shutdown/removed?
    I am sorry, I totally disagree with the idea of "shut the people up."
    I won't expand on this, as it can be construed as a post related to our current political situation, but I will say that this is what the forums is for, discussing matters involving in game situations.
     
  13. As the person above stated, why shut down the discussion?

    I agree with you that it is an obvious exploit of game mechanics, but something that should have been caught in QA testing... however it is virtually impossible to test every game mechanic.

    That said, this should be fixed so it doesn't work this way, but NO ONE should get banned because of EA's oversight.
     
  14. Lord Sir Scott

    Lord Sir Scott Lore Keeper
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    Totaly aggrees.... the amount of people in the room is the trigger to the spawn if i recall.
    it was intended by the developers to do this if i recall...
    a few go in, the door locks this make it interesting... the ones that made it in kill off the spawn, the door unlock... more come in more spawn is required hence more spawn....

    if i recall it was a concept to provide areas with more place people could get higher end items... with out haveing to compete so much for them...
    But i could be totaly wrong too...

    Just think what that spawn would be like if there was say a guild of 20 people in there....
    one of my most fav places to play...
     
  15. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    That said, this should be fixed so it doesn't work this way, but NO ONE should get banned because of EA's oversight.

    I agree as long as its a game mechanic and not a 3rd part program thats making this happen I think abuse the heck outa it if its a problem they will fix it if not its not important and fair game!
     
  16. Nyses

    Nyses Lore Keeper
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    I dissagree that it is an exploit. More things in room = more spawn in room. Now if your invulnerable attendant actualy started killing the Dark Guardians, while you were standing safely outside the room, yes that would be an exploit.

    I think it is one of the better PvM designs in the game. The difficulty is meant to actually increase as more people are present (or in my case summons). This provides at least, some level of actual danger. Instead of it being pathetically easy, 2 at a time Dark guardians, that I might die to, if I loose connection.

    Since I first discovered the Dark guardian room, I have hunted for bones there with my mage. I walk in with Protection on and immediatly cast 2 EV,s and proceed to invis myself. At first 2 guardians pop and are killed quickly, then 6 come up and are killed just as fast. All I do is keep my EV's going.
     
  17. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    Hmmm, I'll disagree with you both.

    Having items to get into vamp form gets you the ability to get there. Removing those items, removes your ability to stay there. The fact that it wasn't happening was an exploit.

    A game mechanic of this type, while close to an exploit, doesn't quite match the same level. Unless I see a developer state otherwise...
     
  18. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Wow you guys really are pushing the exploit envelope aren't you?
    I mean if I cast a couple of EVs in the room I get even more. I think it's actually INTENDED...
     
  19. Heh... I am picturing a whole guild entering the room all with their attendants, hundreds of guardians spawning, bringing down the whole shard. THAT'S pushing the envelope!

    While the EV's might be part of the game mechanics, I don't think the invulnerable attendants were intended. I just don't want to see this handled the same way "bugged" quivers were, with people getting account marks for something they were supposed to know.
     
  20. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    What difference does it make. All the guardians will attack the one person not the invulnerable npc. It actually makes it "harder". Can't believe anyone would complain that making something a little harder would be an exploit.
    (Not that its hard to kill the guardians just the point being made two is easier than four)
     
  21. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Maybe we could get a dev or someone official to make a comment about the legality of this... (and then if it's kosher I can add it to the tips post.) :p
     
  22. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    LoL ya lost ya mind. HeH this was intended it's being around since doom poped up. It doesnt matter if the attendent is invulnerable or anything he doesnt attack. I can gate in 5 packies and bring in animated spawn and get many of them at once or just use any summons. It doesnt matter if the packies die,it doesnt matter if the attendednts die there purpose has already being done. Just makes it harder when needed sounds perfectly fine with me. They already beefed the liches anyway.
     
  23. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    LOL
    Much ado about nothing...
    Call it a feature, call it an exploit, call it a bug...IF it was coded in that way by the devs, so what? They coded it, we use it, that's what the game is for!
    If it ain't sposed to be that way, it needs to be fixed in Va, not here on the boards.
    In the meantime, 'twould seem to me to be fairgame :)

    You know, quite a while back, I had a lot of friends that made millions selling iron ingots that weren't obtained by mining. To stay out of trouble I won't say how they got em, but it was a large and steady supply. They were worried about getting in trouble over it, my advice to em was the same as this deal, if the devs wrote the code, and you're just using what they gave ya without any mods to it, go for it.
    That's my attitude...I pay to play, however the coding lets me, I don't pay to be QA nor to write code nor playtest.
    *shrugs*
     
  24. HOLLYWOOD_Siege

    HOLLYWOOD_Siege Journeyman
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    i get 5 horses to follow me samurai and i get ALOT of dark guardians and when iam done looting i can pop another wave, took me a hour to get about 7k bones:thumbsup:
     
  25. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    The question as to whether it's an "illegal" exploit or not depends entirely on whether the devs intended it to work this way or not.

    Until they actually make a statement to the contrary, I don't see why it should be assumed illegal.

    The real problem, as I see it, is when the overzealous start paging about it. That's when the trouble will start.
     
  26. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    This is no less an exploit than duplicating items, it's just a far smaller impact. It creates a situation where one can farm faster than intended, you might as well have mechanized farming allowed if you can cheat too.
     
  27. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Is it intended to work differently though?

    I mean, if the "get bones faster" thing was the only side to the story, then the answer would be a plain "yes". But it seems far more likely that the "monsters per person" thing is supposed to scale difficulty, and the bones were never a part of "what was intended".

    Doing something you're specifically not supposed to be able to do is one thing. Doing something that the devs never considered is another.
     
  28. Lyconis

    Lyconis Sage
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    I don't think this is overly harmful, the player is attended and was smart in his farming tactics. Should this be described as a bug? yes. Is the player using an "exploit" (as described by the jargon file)? No. Is the player benefiting from this? Yes making it an exploit of the "bug" by the definition of exploit from websters.

    With EA's policy of inconsistency even if a dev would respond to this saying you can do it I wouldn't trust what they say. I'd stay away from it and wouldn't do it what so ever. Not worth the mark on your account.

    There are better bugs for the dev team to fix that give players an unfair advantage in pvp and with the games economy.

    As for what Uriah said. I agree partially but strongly disagree that we can do anything within the game limitations. Being able to double armor ignore, create food half mana cost for special moves, create skull mugs and world gem bits, etc. Are exploiting bugs in the game, or if you are like me and dislike the word exploit you can call them bug abusers.

     
  29. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No.

    It depends on whether or not they decide to label it illegal.

    Black horses...Unintended, and illegal. People were banned. Then, later, still unintended, it became legal. Then they fixed it.

    Blessed rune books. Certainly not intended. "Oh, why not."

    Intent is only an element in a decision that they make. What matters to us isn't the elements, it's the ultimate decision.

    Having said that? I'd be REALLY surprised if anyone was actioned upon for this.

    -Galen's player
     
  30. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    That's an...interesting...attitude. BTW exploiting bugs is a banable offense, maybe you should re-read the ToS so you don't accidentally get your account banned or decide to spread an opinion as a moderator of these boards that some newbie might take as fact, and thus get their account banned.

    Considering that EA/Mythic recently banned people who didn't actually exploit game mechanics themselves but bought dupes, I'd probably urge caution when it comes to things of a questionable nature.

    In this instance it doesn't sound like a big deal to me, but I'd probably wait for someone official to pipe up before I hit doom with a PA in tow.
     
  31. Blesh

    Blesh Sage
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    Because taking action on your paying customers for obtaining items that are duped, without giving the means for the player themselves to discern whats duped and whats not, is totally ok for a company to do.

    They sure do handle their game in a professional and honorable way, lemme tell ya.

    I'm with Uriah though. Look at Sampires. Use it while you can, because once people complain enough, they'll get rid of it just to shut everyone up.


    On a side note, I should probably stop posting here. I'm getting rather jaded.
     
  32. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    It is no big deal.

    Here is how you get around it. If you do the spellweaving quest, even with 0 spellweaving you can cast natures furies. So in the interval while you wait cast as many as you can.
     
  33. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Wow, I didn't think that this thread would last this long. I think people are a bit paranoid nowadays. Not that it's a bad thing, it's always a good idea to be cautious and check first.



    That's the thing, this is intended part of the game mechanics. The more headcounts you have in the room, the more danger you are in. 2 headcounts with only 1 player, it makes it twice as hard. 3 headcounts with only 1 player = thrice as hard etc

    It doesn't care if you have 5 helpful greater dragons or 5 unhelpful rabbits in there. If the player has 5 useless followers with him that can't help him with killing the increased spawn, and he can't handle it, he gets torn up. That's entirely his own fault and will teach him to chew off more than he can handle.

    Regarding the comparison to duping - note that the player isn't getting dupes of monsters corpses and extra free loot. He only increased the spawn like how the room was designed to. He needs to handle the spawn by himself. It's a very good system and game mechanics.

    Regarding having an invul pet there, how would you consider getting off a swampy to get an extra headcount for the spawn, then re-mounting the swampy once they have spawned so that the swampy is invulnerable?

    Or the other extreme, summon 2 EVs plus 1 nature's fury, then the character invises, effectively making the character invul?

    What about a tamer's pet that has to deal with the increased spawn while his master is safely hiding in a corner and not attacking?

    Cu Sidhe - "Stupid #@$^&#$% humans! Leaving me to handle the increased spawn while his sits on his butt safely in the corner, not offering to even help heal me. His bloody presence is the reason I have to deal with the increased spawn in the first place!"
     
  34. MoneyMaker

    MoneyMaker Guest

    ROFL.... good one harliquin,
    I see this as no more of an exploit than, someone running full out through destard targeting every GD in the place, then attempting to take them all on his/her self. If they can handle them... great! (but not likely), if not....well they have a godd lil run to a healer or waste a self rez.

    It truely is a sad state that UO has become over the years. Players becoming paranoid to even buy anything off a vendor, fearing that it might be a duped item, with no affirmative way to find the truth of it without possibly recieving a black mark or even banned.
    PvM is in just as sad a state. Stay in one area too long and someone will say you are farming (the oni for instance, good gold, but people will say your gold farming).
    As I have said before (and was accused of whining by a MOD.... who shall remain nameless) there is a huge lack of pertinent information from EA and the UO team. Most of our information is from secondhand sources, who do provide it to the best of their knowledge (stratics for instance. Undoubtably one of the longest running and best sources of information, but (not to my knowledge) owned or operated by EA or UO *if I am wrong please POLITELY clarify*)
    Finally there is the PvP issue. Long on the fixes....... just like a old tire, you can only patch and fix it so long, then you are just gonna have to get a new one. (or fix the issue that ties tram and fel into this never-ending balancing issue)

    I am not ranting or raving, just stating an opinion that is shared in parts by alot of people throughout the game (and hoping that one of the devs see the state that so minor a thing can cause for their player base)

    Good luck to you all and happy hunting.
     
  35. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    I thought it was dumb. And last year when they banned people for having xx amount of item on their account, but didn't tell any of the people banned what or how many of the item, I thought that was much dumber. I think also that was a giant screw up where they acted in a slip shod manner and deleted accounts, and never bothered telling anyone they screwed over "oops we're sorry" or posted anywhere that they screwed up. Unfortunately if you play this game, you not only have to stay within their rules but also anticipate what they will get mad enough to ban over, or just remove from the game.

    Something like this I just wish they'd clarify on. I'm sure it's ok, and even if in their wisdom they decide to spend 30 hours recoding personal attendants so this doesn't happen I cannot see anyone getting banned over it.

    I stay well within the rules. I stay within my own rules even. If I'm filling BODs at my vendor house while hidden so I don't have to talk to customers, I stop crafting when they come in the door in case they have the sound on. If I'm mining and I see another miner, I quite frequently say hello. I don't spend any of my game time on one activity for very long. I log out obsessively if I have to go potty, or get a drink. Paranoia may keep my accounts safe, and if I end up getting burned anyways then...g'bye UO.
     
  36. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    It's just silly that the trammel folks will try to justify this exploit while condemning similar exploits of bugs elsewhere in the game that they do not benefit from... Namely several past ways to make large quantities of ingots from a place they should not have been available from.
     
  37. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    I don't see this as even an exploit, more like strategic game play. The room is designed to react a certain way and there are multiple ways to trigger that, some to the advantage of the players, (summoning spells, bring friends or helpful pets), some to the disadvantage of the player, (rabbits, packies, escort NPC's or personal attendants). None of these do anything the room wasn't intended to do. They increase the spawn which means more monsters and more loot for killing them. It's not like it increases the loot on the individual mobs, you have to kill the same amount of mob's per/gold. Not much different than doing the spawn twice except it's a bit quicker and more challenging to those who are good at it.

    If the game has mechanics built in with the intent of making it equally more harder and more profitable, then what does it matter how you trigger that? I'd say a mage with EV's is far more of an advantage than a personal attendant that's just going to stand there and watch me get my butt kicked.

    You have to be able to kill the extra spawn to get the extra loot. No advantage to that at all.
     
  38. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    You sure its trammel folks? Trammel folks pvm more ,Fellucia folks pvp more. If we gonna classify players by facets wouldnt it make sense that a pvp who doesnt pvm which will live and die in the fellucia facet will come to a pvm facet to try pvm out which he or her don't normaly do and will notice something that pvm "trammel" players knew since doom came out or it was a newbie?
    Not to mention the dark guardian room was meant from day one as a way to complete the deamon bone quest "reason those liches have higher than normal deamon bones for players". The dev didnt want to make it tedious to collect 1-2 bones per patchwork skeletons to reach 1000 bones for 1 skull shot and have players lose interest.
    It was meant for that purpose hell it was pointed to us by the dev themselves at that time that it was meant for that and even how to get more spawn into the room if you can take the poison and the enemies. And is still use all these years since doom came out for that purpose.
     
  39. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    This thread is about a trammel only exploit. People may try to justify it by claiming that adding an invuln, extra body in the room doesn't kill anything but it can't be killed either. You can add extra bodies to the room so long as they can be harmed and this is clearly intended. This is exactly what exploiting a bug is. It's unbelievable that the same folks that defend this bug would condemn others just because they don't exploit those other bugs. Talk about selective cheaters.
     
  40. The Craftsman

    The Craftsman Lore Master
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    They are one in the same thing.

    An Exploit is the term EA uses when someone uses Creative Thinking to work around the game mechanics.
     
  41. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Just curious, are you saying that all the folks defending this are condemning others for other exploits? Are you referring to duping?

    Yes, sometimes there is a very fine line between creative thinking and exploits. If unsure, it's always safe to ask first like the OP. I have stated my reasons and examples on why I do not consider this an exploit, esp on your earlier reference on it being similar to duping. (ie getting extra spawn and making things harder <> exploit. Somehow duping the lootable corpses without killing = exploit).

    How would you consider using an invul ridden swampy or a hidden mage? To increase the spawn?
     
  42. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    both are potentially damageable.
     
  43. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Even if you weren't using an attendant, couldn't you just tame a couple cu's, unicorns/kirins, other non aggressive tameables and put them in there so more guardians spawn?

    Not to mention those pets would help kill the negative karma guardians as well.
     
  44. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Have none of you used the "exploit" of taking a soloist into the room hoping of your swampy and casting 4 natures furies to get 12spawn??

    Wow...im exploiting there!!!

    Its not an exploit its they way its meant to work the way i see it...using my technique will get you more spawn than the attendant and they will actually help kill(except swampy get on him as soon as it pops).
     
  45. Ummm, Nope. I didn't know it worked that way until I read about it here!
     
  46. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Yea it doubles the total things in the room, so it makes no difference if its an attendant or a summon, go with another soloist friend and both jump of cast 4natures furies...24spawn!!!

    *Disclaimer, i hold no responsibility for people who do this and die!!!*
     
  47. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Besides the fact that you're trying to justify cheating with the attendant(non damageable) by comparing it to bringing 5 damageable creatures into that room, I'm not sure what your point is.

    They aren't the same things at all. Just because you ramped up the numbers to talk about other means of upping the spawn, doesn't change that an attendant which can't be involved in combat in anyway is being exploited to increase spawn, which is to increase only with the number of combat capable entities inside.
     
  48. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    My God Omnius you were a hall monitor at school weren't you?

    What difference does it really make.... It can be done very very easily with or without the use of an attendant so until the Devs say that it is an exploit try not to lose any more sleep over it :next:
     
  49. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    My god you are so petty!

    As you said the attendant is a non combatant so who gives a flying F**K!
     
  50. Gents, if I may be so bold, I do not think either position is going to prevail here.

    This is the time where we would need a Dev's ruling. Otherwise we're just talking in circles.