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It appears that the GM's are no longer banning cheaters that are paged on...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    For a while there it appeared that cheaters that were being paged on were being banned. Now it appears that this is no longer happening. So it appears that the data being collected by the third party cheat detection is no longer being acted on in any way. It would appear that we are now in a worse position with regard to the cheating issue than we were before third party cheat detection was implemented.

    I'm not surprised, but I am very disappointed.
     
  2. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    If you're willing to cover the cost of 85% of Felucca on all shards I'm sure something can be arranged. But yeah, I'm with you and hope they'll do a better job cracking down on it. These days it seems a lot of people cheat because they're expecting the person fighting them will be doing it (which doesn't make it right, just proliferates it).
     
  3. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    the "cheaters" pay too.. and the bad thing is they usually have upwards of 10+ accounts to get resources..

    if they ban the cheaters they lose money..

    on top of that the way resources and stuff are gathered, you ban all the cheaters then they get impossible to get in quantity. go try to find 1000s of bloodwood for sale somewhere..
     
  4. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    It's not just fel guilds.. I've been in many of the larger tram based guilds in the game, and scripting is just as rampant.

    Speedhacking and such no because that's entirely an issue of "everyone else is doing it and there are no consequences" and only really offers a benefit in fel.
     
  5. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Whatever someones reason for cheating they should be banned (but won't be).
     
  6. I have a reasonably fast connection and play with very little, if any, lag. Yesterday I was fighting using my GM Poisoning Fencer (the idea is to spam DP). I was hitting it over and over and some of the guys I was fighting were curing so fast it seemed that their health bar was just blinking green. It seemed faster than any human could react.

    How many legit (although admittedly gimpy in my case) templates are invalidated by scripting? I don't spend all my time in fel, and I spend even less there fighting. I mean, why would I when any plan I make can be invalidated by cheating. If I get my arse handed to me, and I often do, by someone playing legit I am good with that. I don't dedicate my life to PvP. Someone who does should kick me around.

    When my skills are negated in a way that seems beyond human, I don't want to play the PvP reindeer games anymore.

    My hat is off to the real PvPers. God bless the people that are good because they work hard and practice. Screw those that get to "Own" people because they run cheats.
     
  7. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Interesting paradox, I suppose. Given we seem stuck with a majority of GMs who have no clue about the game, do we want them to leap in and ban only to then find out they were wrong, or not act and avoid incorrectly banning people... since it seems we won't ever get to the proper solution of enough well informed GMs able to police the ToS correctly :(
     
  8. spoonyd

    spoonyd Seasoned Veteran
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    No good player uses scripts in pvp. 2nd, the poisoning skill sucks ass right now and not even worth having on a template until they fix cure pots. The best advice I can give you is to rework your temp and continue to practice your healing timing etc with your guildmates. In the field you can be attacked at moment's notice so you have to be spot on with everything in practice first before you can think about being good in the field.
     
  9. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    they found that they can't stop cheating... that's the pure truth...
    unfortunately the more they ban, the more returns...
    here is an example.
    you want to set up a wood business, but you don't have time to lumberjack all day. Then you make a new account, you start a script that drop the wood directly on your house.
    Before to be caught this account could harvest for weeks or even months if you are smart enough and in all this time you can gather enough wood to became rich.
    Then this account suddenly being banned. Ok, it's not a problem. You have earn enough to open another one and keep going.
    Do this with 8-10 account that simultaneously do different activities (buy reagents, bod collection, mining, etc...) and your income rate will be huge.

    So the point is: if someone can do what I've explained, why a gm should ban this guy? he obviously return after 10 minutes and the gm has lost precious time that could be spent to help someone else...

    Actually the cancer of this game is the 2d Classic Client which support a lot of script and cheating softwares AND force the dev team to spend time in testing and developing on 2 different clients...
     
  10. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And this is the unvarnished truth. The enhanced client won't gain wide acceptance until the cheating monster is slain with regard to the classic client, and the classic client can't be discontinued until the enhanced client gains wide acceptance.
     
  11. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Thats not a script thats bind key to mouse roll up or down or macro on key. Most likely mouse wheel as that is easier than pressing a side button. Script takes a longer as it only reacts after the effect, Hot key is faster as player reacts before being effected. Once a player knows what he is fighting he will adjust his skills toward the enemy, the script can't do that as it has to be preprogrammed way before hand to counter a template they don't know they going to expect. So player can react to the change of pacing at a moments notice while a script is stuck on preprogramed instruction which can be confused and muck up easily by a mediocre pvp player. These are the reasons scripts are never used in PVP for any real pvp battle as it handicaps the user of it immensly and gurantees his defeat. Also a player that doesn't use proper macros-and hot keys are also guranteed to lose against someone who knows how to bind there keys to gaming mouses and keyboards.
     
  12. spoonyd

    spoonyd Seasoned Veteran
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    They also know that if they get rid of the 2d client that they'd lose like 85% of ppl who play the game so that's not really an option either....All this 3d/anti cheat etc is just a little too late IMO.
     
  13. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    it's not too late... they should try to do 1 week without 2d. The shops will lose a lot of money, and people could learn to play with EC :p
     
  14. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    That's not necessarily true, I know people who actually get motion sick playing with the EC. I'd hate to see them go as well, they were Beta testers..
     
  15. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    "spreadsheet"
     
  16. Meat Elemental

    Meat Elemental Journeyman
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    Dont forget I dont want to play a wow clone or my computer is too old or I get headaches....all the same anti ec stuff from people who probably never even tried it.
     
  17. Restroom Cowboy

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    @Meat Elemental. I cannot play the EC for any extended period due to it giving me headaches. The granulation in the client movement, blurry statics, and blinding e-motes make it nearly impossible for me to play. Add in the playability issues with mage pvp...and it is not possible for me to use.

    Sorry folks, I am not here to knock the EC...just stating that for some people it just is not a playable option for them. It isn't a cop out when people say they have issues using it...some really do have issues.

    @Llewen, I agree that the whole anti-cheat thing was just another big gimmick. I have seen a lot of people still make use of third party cheats to play, and in fel I run into scripters all the time. I really do not care for having the wool pulled over my eyes with statements of *we are fighting the cheaters and we have a way to put a stop to it*. Either commit or don't I say.
     
  18. HD2300

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    Ah the MythiCal spreadsheet. LMAO :lol:

    [​IMG]

    It almost time for another cheating is our top priority speech. But dont expect immediate results, because really really big spreadsheets, and from accounts this one is really really big, take at least 4 months analyze.
     
  19. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    I have to agree that mage pvp is absolutely terrible on the EC. I use the EC for PvM because I like some of the features on it the graphics and art don't bother me, but when it comes time for pvp I have to switch back to the CC.
     
  20. Kasumi_Chan

    Kasumi_Chan Guest

    Why ban the cheaters/scripters when they can just ban/suspend people who actually play the game? :yell:
     
  21. canary

    canary Guest

    LOL, so true. I actually wonder about the authenticity of Cal's statement he actually had hard data. The cheaters obviously are still around, and I still see scripters all over.

    Come on, we ALL have seen 'Tim' on the Lunas of UO at all times of the day. And we ALL know what he does. If you cannot address HIM, then seriously it is plain as day Cal is absolutely ineffective at doing anything about cheaters.
     
  22. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Technically, this is actually impossible. Believe me I know what I am talking about.

    The motion sickness that has been described using simulators and first person computer games is real and has to do with the exact problem people experience when on a boat. Visually Perceived Motion that does not co-register with your other sensory organs. This is aggravated by slightly off perspectives and such in 3D games. Certain recent FPS games were notorious for causing motion sickness because the 3D rendering was off by 9-11%.

    In a 2D (and the EC is still 2D) board game this is impossible, unless you are also affected by the old client, or by your Pogo board games or something. One could also get seizures and such from staring at moving images. However, this is no better, nor worse, using the EC.

    so people need to stop using "medical" issues as a way to force out the EC. I call enormous BS on that tactic.
     
  23. canary

    canary Guest

    Awesome, we have a doctor in the house!

    What is your specialty?
     
  24. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    What I really wanted for this thread was someone to officially, or even unofficially, tell me I am wrong. I'd like to believe that cheaters are still being banned when they are paged on, and maybe they are, maybe it just takes longer than I thought it might. But I am nonetheless discouraged because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is still an awful lot of cheating going on in UO.

    My particular interest is pvp, and I know in pvp that probably most, if not all, of the high end pvp'rs are running various hacks and cheats, whether they are health scripts, or mul and art hacks that allow them to do things such as cast multiple fields one on top of the other, or exploits that break timers and cooldowns. As for other aspects of the game, such as crafting and resource gathering, I don't know if there have been changes for the better there or not.
     
  25. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    Comparing UO to Pogo and such things misses a crucial point.
    As you move around in UO, the scenery is moved around your character, which remains static in the middle of the screen. The moving scenery can result in a perception of motion in much the same way as a 3D game.
    In the Classic Client, the rendering is limited to 10 frames per second, which is low enough that the brain is able to perceive the pauses, which would break up the illusion of motion.
    The Enhanced Client displays at up to 60 frames per second, which removes the pauses that allow the brain to not perceive the illusion of motion as actual motion.
    If players who suffered motion sickness using the Enhanced Client lowered the frame rate limit in the configuration files, then that would likely remedy the problem for them. As an added bonus, the game would feel more like the Classic Client to play, and the "skating" that is often complained about would possibly also be remedied.
     
  26. frostbolt

    frostbolt Seasoned Veteran
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    why would we want them to address Tim, i would think that most people agree that the vendor search sites are about as necessary as using UOassist.
    The game simply is not playable without certain things such as this.
     
  27. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Just hope you don't need me...
     
  28. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    no. moving images do not give you motion sickness. just like TV does not give you motion sickness. refresh rates or rendering speed does not really make a difference either. Slower rendering speed is not really perceived as a pause, that actually would just lead to head aches (flickering) and seizures, if you are sensitive to it. The rendering of the old client is not 10 Hz. I promise you.

    Illusion of motion is indeed an issue, but only if your brain would somehow render a 2D world and comprehend it as 3D, and that is simply not the fact for any 2D type game. No matter how you skate or glide, this kind of motion is not going to misconstrued by your brain as conflicting with your actual motion, i e sitting in your chair doing nothing. I am sure there is someone that claims it does, just like there is someone who will vouch for getting nauseated from anti-emetics, or getting headaches from tylenol.

    It is the semi realistic 3D rendering with FOV's that are slightly off kilter that make your brain compute skewed motion, in absence of actual motion sensed by the rest of your body. THat, in a very small portion of the population, will cause motion sickness. THe other way around, you actually are moving but you don't see the corresponding movement (you on a boat for instance) may cause even the best of sailors to puke and is much more common.
     
  29. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    Saying that television doesn't cause motion sickness, and extrapolating that to mean that UO couldn't is a logical fallacy.
    While moving around, the player's eyes will generally be focused on a single point, while the moving scenery gives the illusion of motion. There is absolutely no 3D component required for the brain to perceive motion.
     
  30. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    you are correct in your statement here, strictly speaking. not a logical fallacy actually, but I will leave that one for another time... But illusion of motion is not the same thing as the kind of images that may lead to motion sickness. all movement on computer screens are in a sense an illusion of motion. just like TV... It is the kind of 3D imagery that is required to trick the brain in believing actual physical motion is taking place that next is expected by the brain to correlate with other sensory organs in the body that may lead to sickness. Again, not arguing really.. read up on horizons, field of view, nausea, simulation etc. nothing new here.
     
  31. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    I like some of the features in the EC, but I've played the the 2d client for over 5 years now and I'm so use to scroll up for cure and scroll down for heals that I really don't want to learn new macros, graphics, and push this button to pull up this menu. I like order, structure and things being the same. If I was just starting UO, then I would most likely would choose EC over the 2d client since EC has the feel and look of many of the games I've played before. As far as the motion sickness feeling, I do notice that in EC the shimmering effect of the terrain as you run is more noticeable, but then again it could be because in the 2d client I'm used to seeing it and my brain just ignores the effect.
     
  32. Zosimus

    Zosimus Grand Inquisitor
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    So true. They just cant stop it. They cant stop it in WAR either. Paying 2X a normal sub still couldnt fix it.

    Have to love the spreadsheet though :p
     
  33. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    It's truely amazing how many people have this strange misguided shortsighted belief that if the CC was done away with, all cheating would end.

    Anyone capable of thinked far enough ahead to suspect that the cheat program makers would find the EC's modern code as easy to work with as the Devs do, and produce a whole new set of even better cheat programs?

    Think people, think. :lol:
     
  34. Nexus

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    Ever been in a real flight simulator? I'm not talking about the cheesy one's at the arcade or the one's people make for Flight Simulator X in their garage....

    When I was in the military I was fortunate enough to get to "play" around in the bases Simulator...

    They don't move but about 1 in 20 people loose their lunch because their visual perception doesn't match the sensations their body are experiencing.
     
  35. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Been playing EC so long now when I get on CC, I can't wait to get back on EC. Just don't like the way CC looks so much that the EC crashes are my remembering when CC crashed and had to wait for someone else to crash just to log back on.

    Before gathering was worth the effort in time for gold. Those that don't put in the time are free to undercut true gathering effort. Many hacks undercutting each other never doing the time makes prices lower. Long chain ends with better off killing Oni for gold then selling ingots or wood from active gathering.

    Why active UO only GMs need to hunt down the main accounts to bann and wipe them. Stings for gold sale sites. Let them continue to pay for the ten junk accounts. Or hell with banning. Just come up with some trail account limitations to be imposed on offending accounts. Normal iron and wood only no go to fell and some special limits for this punishment. Reds on this limited account just get to stand on the wood square on the upper left corner of the fel map till the 3 or 6 months is up of active account time.
     
  36. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Whether the actual term 'motion sickness' is accurate or not may be fascinating, but completely misses the point - playing the EC makes some people feel sick.

    Call it whatever you want, analyse it until you are blue in the face, the problem remains some customers feel ill using the product, and so they won't. If your answer is 'lose those customers' that's fine, it's your opinion, but it's not one everybody shares....
     
  37. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If that was the case, which I hope it is not, but "if" that was the case, then what is the point, I ask, to maintain the policy of scripting and hacking in Ultima Online as a forbidden activity ?

    I mean, if something is not allowed than, either this prohibition is enforced or it becomes moot, empty words.

    So, if the conclusion is that, whatever the reasons be them technical or financial scripting and hacking are here to stay, then the policy should be changed and these activities allowed to all players.

    What is totally not fair, IMHO, is the current situation where something is considered not allowed and this deters many players from using scripts or hacks and thus play at a gross disadvantage as compared to those who use them.

    Either stop scripting and hacking in Ultima Online or change the policy and make them viable for all paying customers, equally, so that they can finally play on an equal footing.

    That's at least how I see it.
     
  38. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, since I have seen fellow players over the years leave Ultima Online because they had had enough of others cheating in the game, they just no longer wanted to play at a handicap and did not want to play using cheats and so they simply made up their mind and stopped playing this game and went playing something else, I wonder what would be worse, in terms of subscriptions lost, whether an Ultima Online that ended support to the Classic Client and thus only continued to support the Enhanced Client, or let the current status quo with scripts and hacks continuing.

    Personally, my feeling is that Ultima Online would be an overall better game and perhaps even see returning players who left it because of rampant cheating, if the support to the Classic Client was to be ended.

    Not everyone wants to play the Enhanced Client for one reason or another, well, not all games can be appealing to all players I guess.

    But I think that a choice must be made. Either do something to end or reduce drastically cheating in Ultima Online OR, as an alternative, change the policy and declare what is today not legal as legal.

    It is the current status quo which is neither black nor white which I find no longer tolerable.
     
  39. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Ok fine, so "if" cheating cannot technically be stopped, and perhaps it is not financially advisable for the risk of loosing too many subscriptions, then why on earth continue to maintain a policy that wants scripting and hacking as forbidden activities in Ultima Online ??

    I mean, if they are forbidden, then stop them, if they cannot (technical limitation) or are not wanted (economical limitation) to be stopped, then what is even the point of having them as not allowed ??

    It just puts players on an uneven footing which is the worst thing for the game because it creates unhappy players and so, customers.

    I say either stop them or, if this ain't possible, whatever the reasons, change the policy and allow them for all players to use.
     
  40. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    Of course cheating will return on EC one day, BUT actually there is noone that has cracked the packets comunication of EC, and this will give us at least 1 month of no cheating/scripting time. At the same time the devs could block the new cheating programs when they born, thing that can't be done anymore on CC...
    Another factor is that you can't keep 10-20 EC client opened at the same time so the farming will be halved :p
     
  41. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Simply looking at how viruses, trojans and keyloggers evolve, the concept that any company can 'keep up with' all the forms of attack their programs will come under is rather optimistic - it's always a case of chasing the newest problem, and will never change. True, UO isn't likely to be as appealing a target for Microsoft, but I see no sign that EA/Mythic have anything like the internal structures, capability and staff needed to keep the game 'clean'. As for the argument that there's no cheating on a significant scale even now with the CC.... where's the evidence for that?

    Fair enough, you think the game will be fine if it loses some players who don't want to use, or have problems with, the EC. EA seem to disagree, and unlike us they may have some genuine data to back up their decision.

    Precious little in the universe is 'black or white', but I always laugh when people who claim some situation is 'intolerable' to them but still carry on, since if it were true, they would stop tolerating it and leave....

    It may be bad, unprofessional, incompetent, and insulting - but if it really was 'intolerable' you'd not be playing.
     
  42. Restroom Cowboy

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    I call BS to your BS, how about that?
     
  43. Violence

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    The implications of trying to improve the situation have been discussed so thoroughly and I've quit, so I would think I would not feel bad about UO's situation every single time I read it's still weighed down by cheaters.. Yet I do.

    Yet I can see why those who can't stand UO as it is now also can't leave. They like it and care about it and would hate to leave. Which is something the Devs exploit and milk even if not directly. And Aurelius fails to see this for something else than hypocrisy or tolerance to BS, which it is not. It's hope, I think. UO is definitely intolerable to me and I see no hope for it which is why I do not play.

    Anyway, Llewen haven't you already learned that it's always bursts of this or that, which then die away? Nothing new.
     
  44. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    What I said was if someone genuinely thinks it's intolerable, they would leave - as you did. I don't see it as "something else than hypocrisy or tolerance to BS, which it is not", I do see saying 'I cannot tolerate this' has no meaning, when the people saying it do exactly that, tolerate it.... because we can't change what EA will or will not do to any significant degree. Bottom line, our only influence on EA (not on the Dev team, but on the parent corporate who finances everything, decides on priorities, and allocates the resources) is whether we pay them, or not. Our opinions, and discussions, may affect the approach of the Dev team, but as far as EA are concerned, they might as well never be said.

    Things are usually compromises, until you reach a point where, for you, it's not worth the compromise. So far, most of us are able to balance what we want the game to be with what it really is, and carry on playing. We all have hopes about the game, and where it might be going, but we choose day to day whether to 'tolerate' the current state (or enjoy it, for some) or not - and the only decision we can make, if it's genuinely intolerable, and we're not actively masochistic, is to leave. I'd rather people didn't, because there is so much in UO that is worthwhile, in my judgement - but it's their decision and if it's so bad it is 'intolerable', it seems madness to go on with it.
     
  45. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    completely agree. my point exactly... never argued against this. just not the same experience as watching a horse glide over a back ground in 2D.
     
  46. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    no arguments? then fine. believe is just that. no arguing will do away with that
     
  47. Cirno

    Cirno Purple Pony Princess
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    When two people have differing opinions, and there is nothing to support either side conclusively over the other, there is little point in arguing.
    I am open to the idea that I'm wrong, although I would need more than an unsupported assertion to the contrary.
    However, entertaining that idea, can you provide a suitable alternative explanation for the nausea people have been genuinely been feeling while playing the Enhanced Client (and which they generally compare of their own accord to motion sickness)?
    The problem of people suffering nausea when playing the EC exists, and has been reported even by upstanding members of the community and those who would otherwise support the EC. As such, it is not something that can be easily attributed to making anti-EC excuses.
     
  48. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Regardless, the main argument is that either scripting and hacking in Ultima Online are stopped or greatly reduced OR, if for whatever reasons this is not an option, THEN at the very least the policy should be changed and scrpting and hacking be allowed for any and all players of Ultima Online.

    I really do not see why things have to stay as they are which is, IMHO, the worst scenario since it creates a divide among players with some players playing with a gross disadvantage versus other players, be it for hacks or for scripts.

    Thie current status quo also looses subscriptions because at some point, there have been and still can be players who have had enough to play at a disadvantaged and decide to move on and leave the game... Worse, it can be a deterrant for players who might consider coming back to the game but do not because of the current status quo.
     
  49. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Yes, I have, at CAE, they rely on the fluid movement in the ear to make you think you're moving. Simply Outstanding!
     
  50. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Dude that stuff was cracked about 2 weeks after the KR Client was released.......