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J.O.A.T. Detect Hidden virsus GM Hiding/Stealth

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Hunters' Moon, May 23, 2011.

  1. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Just how powerful is the joat detect hidden (20 phantom points) virsus 200 points of hiding and stealth? Seems that with my short test with someone in a warring guild was able to reveal me 100% of the time with passive and active detect hidden.

    How can this be right? 20 points defeat 200? I was activally revealed even while not moving. Can someone please explain the logic behind this?
     
  2. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Passive detect in general is very powerful regardless of what it is at. There was a lot of complaining about it when it was first released and why people on Siege are lucky (I hear they don't have passive detect). I make it a rule of thumb to never stealth right next to someone unless I have to which is why I love the shadow jump spell. Even within 2 tiles of someone I am cautious.

    As for active JOAT detect, it shouldn't be working 100% of the time. However I know that when using it and target exactly where the person is hidden improves the chances significantly as the area of effect for 20 detect is very low.
     
  3. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    what you might be seeing is the person has used the JOAT tracking to pin point you exactlly, then all they need to do is use the JOAT detect hidden on your exact spot over and over and over again.

    like mentioned above, when they hit exactlly where ya are its game over.

    and also like mentioned above, passive reveal sucks bag.
    dont stealth within a tile of anyone unless your willing to get revealed.

    usually i just stop moving when people are running all over.
    i wait till they stop, then i move again.
    then if they move again i stop till they are done.

    or.... shadow jump for the win.
     
  4. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Stinks that 20 NON REAL skill can negate 220..... just saying.
     
  5. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    yep but dont count on it being fixed any time soon..

    what sucks the most is being detected by human guild members.
    they should make it so you need at least 50 detect hidden (real skill) to detect passively.
     
  6. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
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    Is sad also when low lvl monsters (non magical) can reveal you as you go walking by. Numerous times, ravens, skeletons & even gore fiends reveal you as you wander. Kind of makes one wonder wth good is 120 stealth if junk like that can reveal you as you wander :wall:.
     
  7. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Does anyone in this game actually have 120 real stealthing? I thought that was just a myth. The massive availability of skill gain for stealth justifies passive detect on prodo shards. hide/stealth still make death an impossibility for even a mildly competent pvper.
     
  8. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    with stealth the ONLY thing you gain from going from 100 to 120 is the extra steps before the stealth check is made.

    it seems detect hidden is so bugged you have a 100% chance to be detected and it doesnt seem to have any stealth check. im not even 100% sure that being elf or human makes any difference.. i have one elf stealther and one human and they get detected just about the same whenever they are within about 3 spaces of anyone.
     
  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Yes I do have 120 stealth.... REAL not modified with Jewelery or pants.

    I put it on a stone long time ago because it became USELESS.

    When even a stupid rabbit will reveal you at 120 stealth and GM hiding... it's time to hang it up.

    I couldn't go anywhere without being revealed. The changes happened quite a while back... and ANY "Orange" from a warred guild will reveal you if you try to get within 5 tiles of them. Which made sneaking into the "enemies" meetings impossible... so I tossed the skill on a stone and took up Bushido and Chivy.

    Won't be using it again either until they fix this. But you see..... I'm not holding my breath.

    I doubt they will ever fix it.

    But Yes I agree "Passive" detect should take at LEAST 50 REAL skill.... not 20 JOAT. And being warred should NOT effect it at all.... you need to have skill to beat skill.
     
  10. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I am always so confused when I see or hear this JOAT detect complaint(as it pertains to fel/pvp)

    200 skill points are NOT wasted only because you can possibly be revealed.

    If your only purpose in having hiding/stealth is to stay hidden 100% of the time then I guess you have a slight issue. But wtf would you need your other 500 skill points for then?
    I can create a new character right now and put nothing on him except max hiding/stealth and stay hidden all day long. JOAT reveal would not affect me in the least.
    I would need 0 items and 0 insurance money in the bank to EFFECTIVELY stay hidden and stealth all day long anywhere.

    But what would be the purpose of this character? Nothing.

    The other 500 skill points though are very well complemented by the hiding/stealth with things such as deathstrike & smoke bombs. JOAT detect does not affect these things at all. If you ever get detected you have multiple other ways of surviving(mirror image,pots,crate,more smoke bombs,etc..)

    I have an effective pvp character that is alot of fun to play and he uses hiding/stealth along with swords,ninja,bushido,poisoning. JOAT detect does not affect him ever.
    Whats the issue? My 200 hiding/stealth points are awesome and put to good use. Not to mention the fact that there are a few very good items that allow you to work hiding/stealth into many templates easily(burglars bandana/royal cloak/silence cloak/etc...)

    I guess maybe if you play a scummy faction runner that does nothing else you may be bothered but thats as it should be IMO. Nothing is perfect and why should a lousy 200 skill points make you impossible to ever be found?
    Or if the only purpose of your character is to try and skulk around listening to other peoples conversation/plans then I also believe you are playing a worthless worm with no merit and all is as should be if you cant just stay hidden forever with only 200 skill points.
     
  11. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    you miss the point.. what good is 200 pts of skill if every single step reveals you?

    if you dont think this is the case then go go a champ. walk around a bit.
    if the monsters dont reveal you the people running around will. heck the other stealthers do too :(

    if a red or an orange pops up on the screen you dont even have a chance to not be revealed as they seem to get a 100% chance. as soon as they walk by you been revealed! :(


    there are SKILLS that combat stealthers.. its called TRACKING and DETECT HIDDEN.

    you should need those skills to passively reveal stealthers.
     
  12. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Should not be impossible but 20 skill points that aren't even REAL should NOT reveal someone with 220 REAL points..... EVER. If you had 50 REAL Points I could see that having a "chance" to reveal someone with 220 REAL points... That's what I'm saying a stupid rabbit or a cat or dog should NEVER reveal someone with 200 points in hiding and stealth.

    And I was playing a SPY not a worthless worm. It's RP... Maybe you have heard of that?

    Skulking about IS what spy's do. The purpose of having hiding and stealth is to Skulk about.... UNSEEN.

    The other 500 points are not like someone else with 100% PvP skills... The other 500 were in things to make you think twice about chasing me... Archery to slam you off your mount and put you at my level... Tactics to be certain I hit my mark... Ninjitsu for the escape and healing to keep myself alive. Things of that nature... But it don't matter anymore because I've left that template.

    Not designed to kill anything... just to be sneaky...
     
  13. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) I completely agree that JOAT is imbalanced and in many cases too powerful. The automatic 200 skillpoints from JOAT counting towards the mana reduction bonus was a joke and rightfully nerfed.

    2) No offense to RP'ers but being a spy is completely without merit IMO and should never be factored in any discussion. Not positive but last time I checked 'Spy' was not a word or skill or title found anywhere in official UO. So no need to consider it when the Dev's are working.
    You want to call yourself a 'Spy' when you are RP'ing? Thats fine but dont complain to the Devs when it isnt exactly how YOU want it to be.
    If someone wants to RP a cross-dressing ninja assassin chef should they complain to the Devs because they dont have the tools/skills to wear whatever gender clothing they want on their character? Please.

    Lastly, to the people complaining that they can't 100% safely stealth around a spawn 24/7 to steal what other people have worked hard to gain I say Lol. That is exactly as it should be. Stealing should be random and dangerous.
    And a serious thief can still stealth around spawns and do very well. It just so happens that almost nobody plays a serious thief because like any other serious profession it is very difficult.
    The only thieves you ever see anywhere are the POS ones that want to insta-grief with no repercussions. Like we really need more no-skill griefing ingame. The Dev's should be ashamed that they arent making it easier for these germs. Not!

    Nothing sadder then all the wannabe thieves complaining for years that they are sooo nerfed lol.
    Just because thieving/griefing used to be rampant they believe they have been cheated somehow since it was finally addressed long ago.
    They were nothing but griefers yet they still feel they are owed something just because it was allowed long ago. Too funny.

    My Mage used to cast alot faster & 5/6 long ago. Am I cheated now that it has been addressed?

    My Busher/Ninja used to effectively use a Hiryu & spam evade with practically no skill points. Am I now cheated because I cant do it anymore?

    Deathstriking Archers used to 1 hit kill many people pre-nerf.

    Bla, bla, bla.
     
  14. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    i agree it is ridiculous.

    But... an animal technically has a keen sense of smell, maybe that's why they detect without having JOAT ? just sayin'...

    what really kills me (literally)that certain people can track many screens once they initally target you... just from JOAT. utterly silly
     
  15. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    JOT tracking isn't super reliable anyway tho.. i've looked up the formula to successfully track and im assuming that jot tracking is almost entirely based on the random 1-20 added to your % for picking up stealthers. I spam tracking and will pick up a 120 stealther mayb 1 out of every 15-20 attempts.
    I have a gm tracker now and I pick up 120 stealthers mayb 1 out of 5 tries. Still not super reliable.. as for detect hidden on passive it's mostly elf that reveal passive.. not humans...I suppose humans can reveal... But it is a racial ability of elf to passive reveal more often, and be harder to track. I don't know anything about stealthing really as I play mages, but if think it's fair considering how overpowered smoke bombs are. I also want to say that I know several thieves who are very successful still, it's not something that is easy to play but if you know what your doing, as these individuals appears to, you can still make decent money. Removing item insurance from vendors makes thieving much more profitable if you know how to do it...

    As for a thief stealing my apples as some mystics try to sleep then gank me.. thats just funny and I can't get mad because it was well thought out. But in all honesty I only really ever see thieves doing things like this now.. or mayb that means they are so good I never noticed..

    Anyways I think considering that a smoke bomb can hide a stealther at just about anytime (assuming you can hide and don't have a timer), I don't see the big deal. You get revealed..hit a smoke bomb... whats the issue? If it was 100% never revealed you wouldn't ever see anyone..and this would be a thread about how overpowered stealthing is..

    I must say that I have no idea about passive reveals occuring from monsters.. I don't play stealthers much and this has never happened to me, but I totally understand being pissed about a rabbit passivly revealing a 120 stealther.. this is stupid.
     
  16. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    The issue is that not every stealther can,or is willing to, fit ninjitsu into their template for the use of smokebombs. The bottom line is that JoaT-phantom skill should never be able to defeat dedicated skill points.
     
  17. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    [​IMG]

    Just for the sake of arguing with you, what you say is not true. As for an actual argument, id say that the whole stealth, detective system has been one sided one way or another since Samurai Empire came out.
     
  18. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I disagree with the statement about getting revealed at every step. I rarely get revealed at champ spawns on my thief. The only reason you have a chance at getting detected there is because there are tons of monsters everywhere each with a chance at detecting you. Passive detect is only effective at most 3 steps from the player too. Outside of dungeons, rarely get detected. Never had a bunny reveal me either, lol. The best advice I can give is using shadow jump. That will compensate a lot. I find that you can shadow jump directly next to someone without getting revealed. Just don't move when you're next to them and shadow jump away if you need to. Passive detect only works if you're stealthing around.
     
  19. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    The problem ive found with shadow jump is uneven terrain and certain tiles cannot be teleported to at all. My mage is able to teleport to many tiles my shadow jumper cant. bad tiles can cause a thief valuable time and can also force a stealth attempt at a nearby target. That is where passive detect really irks me. Id much rather have it so people have easier ways of actively detecting me. The cat and mouse game I can play. A dice roll fail after doing everything right is flat out annoying. With as little as thier is for thieves to steal on prod shards, marks sure are protected by the rules. As far as pvp goes, anyone even remotely knowing what there doing will never die on a stealther if they are cowardly enough.
     
  20. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    you contradict yourself.. someone with 0 skill pts should NEVER get a chance to track someone with 120 stealth EVER.. not 1 out of 20 times even.

    once you hit 50 or so stealth someone with joat tracking should NEVER find you.. on top of that you should NEVER get revealed also.

    that would be like me saying my swords guy with 0 skill in poisoning has a CHANCE to DP you.. or my guy with 0 skill in resist has a CHANCE to resist being paralyzed.


    a char with gm stealth and hiding should NOT be revealed with ANYONE with less then 50 skill pts in detect hidden.. on top of that 50 being the minimum would have a VERY small chance at doing so.. not no 1 in 20..

    it doesnt take very long to hit the button 20 times and get a joat reveal off, this should NEVER happen.
     
  21. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    shadow jump is bugged to death and has caused me to die many times.
    i click the spell hit some bugged tile and get the you cant teleport there message..

    then i walk a few steps i get the your are busy doing something else message and go out of hiding.

    cant smoke bomb, cant rehide, cant even cast.. im too busy doing something else.


    until they fix this, shadow jump is not an option to combat the obvious detect hidden problem.
     
  22. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I've been using shadow jump a long time. I rarely run into problems using it. I have had that problem with being "busy" but I get around it. Perhaps I am just more patient on my thief.
     
  23. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    The problem is the effect of 0 skill passive detect is huge vs a thief but pretty much inconsequential to a combat stealther that will simply hide again and ninja form away and come back a minute later. If a thief is passively revealed the entire plan is basicly down the drain. The thief is all about surprise where the combat stealther will just be rinse and repeat annoying.
     
  24. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    I know what your saying, as an experienced thief myself I know which tiles I can and cannot jump too(for the most part) but at the same time, theres no way I can believe the bugginess hasnt caused you to miss some oppurtunities unless your playing siege which has no passive detect.
     
  25. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Insurance makes this game the wrong game to have a thief in anymore. Sure you might get that lucky +25 stat or 120 magery theft, but umm... there's not going to be some perfect thief system w/o changing something drastic that will drastically imbalance ninja pvp templates. Thief's are even less looked at than new skill implementations and the effects they would have in pvp before launch.
     
  26. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Passive detect towards the beginning did cause me to loose out on some opportunities but as time has passed I learned to take my time if I know there is no rush and most of the time can get by very well. The only time it really gets to me is when I am on the island in despise with the champ spawned. It gets a bit cramped there when they are working the champ with me trying to keep tabs on peoples' bags in hopes of a nice scroll popping up when the moment comes.
     
  27. Nexus

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    And this is why I never, ever invest more than 75 points of real skill into Stealth, at 75 you always pass the check to stay hidden while stealthing in Leather Armor/Mage Armor.

    With JoAT and Elf Passive Reveal Bonus basically negating a the benefits of 45 extra points in Stealth, I find the points better spent somewhere else.
     
  28. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    Hiding/Stealth is still very powerful in PVP, especially with animal form and smoke bombs.
     
  29. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    Yes I understand your point of view. If they were to change this tho they need to fix detect/tracking. At gm tracking I fail to track stealthers.. I have 100 skill point invested to track.. yet I can't track 100% of the time...


    "Chance of tracking = (Tracking + Detect Hidden + Random 1-20) / (Hiding + Stealth) * 50"

    JOT tracking...
    So 20 + 20 +1 / 100 + 120 *50 = 9.3% to track a 120 stealther assuming lowest roll possible on the RNG.

    Now 20+20+20 / 100 +120 *50 = 13.6% to track a 120 stealther assuming highest roll on RNG.


    SO now I am a gm tracker..

    100+20+1 / 100+120 *50 = 27.5%.

    100+20+20 / 100+120 *50=31.8%


    Now I am a gm tracker and gm detect hidden..

    100+100+1 /100 + 120 *50=45.6%
    100+100+20/100+120*50=50%




    This formula perhaps need to reworked? I agree that if someone has 220 points invested into hiding/stealth then they should not have a "10%" chance to get tracked by people without any skill.. but to invest 200 points for only 50%?... idk seems low to me considering 200 points in hiding/stealth means 100% hiding and stealthing.


    I totally understand your complaints, I fight an awful lot of stealthers and have since come to rely on JOT tracking as well as my GM tracker to find them. Also the being able to DP or resist para thing makes total sense...but GM Tracking should get a bonus, mayb 5% bonus at gm? Idk I think it should be a little higher then 30%..

    As far as getting revealed, Elf characters get the racial bonus to reveal , as well as elves are harder to track.. although I have no idea how much harder and if it effects the formula on stratics. Also detect hidden at higher skills give an "area" effect so to speak for passive reveal.

    But overall I think they need to look at how people are revealed. I have spammed earthquake 5 times in a row, killed a guy but never reveal him until he dies... to me this is horribly wrong. It shouldn't be everytime I cast EQ to reveal the guy, but it shouldn't be as low as it is now. I have come to rely on wildfire tho and this tends to reveal more.