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Jeremy, an appeal for a level-playing field

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Tomas_Bryce, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    Jeremy: "Yes, this makes shopping in Felucca much more dangerous - a Bag of Sending might be a good thing to take with you when you're bargain-hunting! And we will keep checking the bug reports for other instances of the elusive Insurance Bug."

    What I am going to say does not directly affect most players but I feel that it is still very significant; few players who still run vendors in Felucca are going to be rudely shocked about this new rule as it will make it next to impossible to run a viable mall in the land many of us grew up in. One of my final goals in this game is to indeed make a viable Fel mall and I am wondering how much harder it would be to achieve this in light of this change?

    Please think about how much of a disadvantage a Fel based mall establishment already faces compared to Luna (Malas)? Do they really need this additional hardship? Is there NO other way to implement a solution to the insurance issue without drastically affecting a small but important part of the community? Yes, this might be the easiest way forward but it is far from best. As a veteran merchant I can tell you with great confidence that "carrying bag of sending" is not going to cut it, especially for a full fledged mall which is as good as any in Luna. I doubt even you really believe that rather casual remark.

    Why should you or anyone else care about the few Felucca based malls still left in the game? Well, I think you and other members of developer team have stated quite often in the past about how you value the community in Felucca. You should know that a community is not built by just aimless pvp'ing at Yew gate or never ending champion spawn fights. A community needs its merchants, bards, and everything else to have a real heart.

    This change, I am afraid, sends a message that developer team does not believe in rewarding people who spend time and effort to build a community anymore. Just think about the ingenuity and work that goes in running a mall just outside of Luna, much less in Fel. It is something that the dev team should be celebrating, not punishing.

    As one Buffy fan to another (throwing the sink in :p), I plea that this change is deemed temporary and a better solution is actively investigated. If not, then give some sort of an advantage for opening vendors in Fel to make up for this huge penalty.


    Regards,

    Tomas Bryce
     
  2. Frankly, you're turning a small problem into something it isn't really. The reality is, people don't run malls in Felucca. It's a struggle to even find small shops stocking consumable supplies there at times. People buy armor parts almost absolutely exclusively in Trammel. This change really doesn't affect much in reality.

    If you're a sensible shopkeeper, and actually want to sell things, you go to a Trammel-based ruleset.
     
  3. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Frankly, you're turning a small problem into something it isn't really. The reality is, people don't run malls in Felucca. It's a struggle to even find small shops stocking consumable supplies there at times. People buy armor parts almost absolutely exclusively in Trammel. This change really doesn't affect much in reality.

    If you're a sensible shopkeeper, and actually want to sell things, you go to a Trammel-based ruleset.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well this is U.Hall - we bring our problems here. This directly affects few of my friends who still run fel based malls and also my near-future plans to establish a large fel based mall in my home shard. I think it is a shame as a fel based mall brings so much more than just another luna vendor.

    Just because it does not affect 75% of the people who solely vendor (in luna) does not make it any less significant (to me). Is it really necessary to impact a small percentage of players so harshly? Is there no other way? Are you certain that this small percentage of players do not positively impact lot more players?
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Frankly, you're turning a small problem into something it isn't really. The reality is, people don't run malls in Felucca

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Just b/c you're particular shard is limited to trammel, and malas does not mean that every shard in the game is a carbon copy of yours.

    There are many shards that have very active fel communities and have regularly stocked and shopped fel malls, many of which are as popular or more than the traditional tram/luna mall.

    To punish these players who work ten times as hard to accomplish the same goal is wrong, and it is a message to all players that we need to conform.
     
  5. I've been active on several shards. All serious vendors that want to sell high-end armor pieces and things like that are not in Felucca. End of story. Don't try and make it out that Felucca is even remotely populated with vendors anywhere, because it isn't. I invite anyone to run around Felucca on their shard of choice to confirm this themselves. This doesn't apply to Siege, obviously, and I do recognize there are a very small number of establishments that may well be trading in Felucca. I personally haven't seen any on several shards, though. As I said, most vendors I've seen in Fel. are the odd restock shop selling consumables.

    Quite frankly Tomas-Bryce, I personally see where you're coming from and I agree it might be perceived as a disadvantage to stack on top of the many others that one faces when running a Mall shop in Felucca. I don't really think that's disputable. But how much impact would the change really have? The people who are likely to shop in Felucca would be well aware of the risks associated in doing so anyway; they'd likely be equipped to deal with PvP scenarios, or at least be aware that they may occur. Nothing should kill someone quick enough that'd prevent them from immediately insuring a component right after purchasing it, unless they were taking an extreme lack of care in an already expectedly risky endeavour.
     
  6. Well......Fel players have been asking for something new to fight over. This kills 2 birds with one stone.....


    [​IMG]
     
  7. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    <blockquote><hr>

    I do recognize there are a very small number of establishments that may well be trading in Felucca.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thanks for recognizing this. You will be surprised how often the uber pvp weapons that you might find at your local luna shop for 3x the price come from a Fel mall. No one is arguing though that it is a small minority. I am just used to conservation of endangered species instead of crushing them [​IMG]

    <blockquote><hr>


    Quite frankly Tomas-Bryce, I personally see where you're coming from


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Again, thanks.

    <blockquote><hr>

    and I agree it might be perceived as a disadvantage


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Therein lies the problem my friend. Say I agree with you and ignore all the possible complications (connection issues, thieves, etc.) - it is just a perception. However, that is, infact, the biggest thing, isnt it? Would you buy a toothpaste with made in China tag after it is perceived as unsafe? Perception is everything when you are selling something and being perceived as unsafe will kill you.


    Regards
     
  8. Hmmm.. I remember back in the old days (which I thought was what all Fel players wanted?) before insurance you really had to be on your toes either shopping OR stocking vendors.

    My first vendor was a screen away from the Yew Abby and I couldn't count how many times my smith was PK'ed as he was stocking. I used to have to bring people with me to help drive off any PK's in the area while I frantically stocked my vendor - then bid a hasty retreat. I also remember shopping in groups. Vendors on Siege seem to do ok under this system as well.

    Isn't this what "non Trammies" want, a return to those days? I'm confused.

    -P.E.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Serioulsy.
    Someone mentioned that shopping occured in fel before insurance and people managed.

    I shopped in Fel before Trammel was made. You know the time.

    I didnt have bag of sending, I didnt have insurance, no one did.

    When we only had 1 land, vendors worked. You had PK's and thieves.

    My opinion is remove the protection and ease of the game to a degree. I hope your community isnt affected or effected. I think it will survive.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If I remember correctly "in the old days"


    Id invis or hide. Then shop. That would prevent thieves from peeking. I could recall out quickly and drop off what I needed.

    I had to do that at the bank too.

    Run in. Hide or invis.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm not sure that this change is going to affect vendors in fel all that much. The main reason that they are implementing this change is because though the items say 'insured', they really weren't. If you got PKed after you bought it, there was still a good chance that it would drop to your corpse. That was the reason behind the change, to make people insure the items themselves so they don't end up loosing them to 'the insurance bug'. Maybe it prevented thieves from stealing the item right after you bought it, but so does hiding, as another poster pointed out. Hide, buy item, insure item, recall out. Still seems pretty safe to me.
     
  12. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    I think comparing to the "old days" argument is bit of a cop out. In the old days we did not have items that were worth so much. In the old days we did not have options for consumers to just go to trammel and shop there instead. It is already a huge disadvantage for a player to choose to build something in fel. They do not need "old day's" which do not exist anymore line of thinking to justify something so harsh.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Isn't this what "non Trammies" want, a return to those days? I'm confused.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Please, just because some random players post insulting things regarding "trammies" do not take it out on players who have done nothing to harm you. Most of my friends who have fel malls are simply people who are attached to that facet because of memories and half never pvp'd. Before trammel, fel belonged to everyone not just pvp'ers and some did not leave. Every community that is destroyed hurts the game in the end and should be mourned.
     
  13. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Maybe it prevented thieves from stealing the item right after you bought it, but so does hiding, as another poster pointed out. Hide, buy item, insure item, recall out. Still seems pretty safe to me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A mall makes money by having buyers stick around and look at things. Not hide, buy, recall out.

    I have said it once and I will say it again: It is not about what people can do to avoid losing their items but the fact that this will be perceived as very unsafe mode of purchase by most players and discourage them from opening vendors or buying from fel vendors. The former part is even more important. I had some very good crafters lined up to open high end fel vendors but now most of them are not willing to take the risk. Why should they when just dumping items in the yawn that is Luna could get them double the profit with zero risk?

    Furthermore, insurance bug was EXTREMELY rare and saying that it is same as non-insured item is bit far-fetched.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well relearning what to do not do with this change, ie going back to the days when there was no insurance, will to some degree remind folks a bit more about what felucca is supposed to be all about. Ie no guarentees.

    Those buying the items, now not the vendor owners will have to *insure* the items the split second they purchase said items, or try to bag of send it while hidden, or zippy fast get said item bought and recall to a bank, OR shop those vendor homes at public moongates which in theory are in guard zones...etc.

    That is how we do it on Siege where even in Luna Malas or anywhere there is a fine vendor home, you shop when there may be less traffic on at the time, you know you can loose it if you are not quick enough to get the item you bought and yourself out of there FAST and alive...item sent via bos soon as possible, or ya may loose it. . item first worry bout yourself later.

    That said, there are also in game situations where this or that guild and this or that other guild draw *lines in the sand* you bother my shoppers I will come kill yours..it creates it's own...form of player justice or vendor home controls, ie a different form of *insurance* ...you treat my customers right ie don't pk em all in front of our shops and we will do like wise for YOUR customers at YOUR shops.

    It does work ie assorted forms of *insurance* via co operation to keep vendor homes somewhat more or less neutral areas.. and if someone is hellbent to create issues out there...........sic the masses on em KILL EM and KILL EM again till they get a clue or message that you just will not tolerate them messing up your place of business. It does work..works just hunky dory fine on siege most of the time *not always* lol [​IMG] There are all kinds of *insurance* that is not game created insurance that can be ...forms of *insurance* asssurances that can work besides gp to insure items fel side.

    Shoppers now will have to shop more carefully, vendor home owners will have to develop a repore with other vendor home owners ie enemies even to *insure* the best possible outcome for each one's vendor home situations..mutually.

    *works on Siege where even shopping in Luna Umbra and away from gz and moongates still nets shoppers and most get their items bos banked or to their home .......*usually* [​IMG] Some spiffy thieves though...well since your buyers CAN insure the item soon as they BUY it..where Siegers can not ever insure purchased items yet they oft get the items home or banked intact safely swiftly some times they win sometimes they loose !

    But..they your shoppers just better be very fast to click *insure item* or bos em..till yall work up your co operative efforts for neutrality around most vendor homes for the benefit of the many..be they red blue whatever ...*best insurance* for every shopper red or blue whatever guilds alliances or factions..ya work to try to keep as many players..mutual vendor homes *neutral* ..and yall hunt down people that try to make an utter mess of your vendor homes shoppers and sic pvpers pks whom ya do know to KILL em for non co operation...as many times as it takes for em to *get the... message* [​IMG]
     
  15. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    QueenZen: I agree with you but you have to understand that production shards are not Siege. It is EXTREMELY hard to convince people to open a vendor for high end items in Fel with so much risk attached to it when they could just charge more in Luna. It is not a level-playing field like in Siege.
     
  16. [​IMG]well ... ya could have worked out .... some simple steps to insure a purchase ...
    fresh off the vendor-insured
    1-2 second "window" when it might get stolen
    [​IMG]
    ya know that "confirm" window that comes up?
    [​IMG]
    stays up while you turn "insurance toggle" on
    get the cursor(for insuring)
    Select the "go ahead or cancel" with the cursor
    click
    click
    just that quick
    insured item in your pack

    *Pins ribbon on chest*
    *Savior of Fel Vending*


    coulda been yours
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have run a Fel shop for years. Nothing on my vendors is insured unless I got it that way in an IDOC and forgot to change it back. It isn't necessary for a shop in Fel to do this, in fact the extra expense is a bit silly.

    I have never had trouble getting enough sales. Quite the opposite, I'm as busy as I can cope with and making a lovely profit. And I sell all sorts. From rares and PS to pots and furniture.

    There is nothing stopping a customer from hiding in the shop, buying their items and insuring or BOSing them to the bank.

    The insurance change is not an issue [​IMG]

    Wenchy
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have been running a 16 vendor Fel house for 4 years and I have tons of customers. But I never sell anything of super high value like arties, armor or scrolls because I do worry that thieves will camp my house and take advantage of the situation.
     
  19. I couldn't have said it any better myself, QZ! I was a bit too terse in my comment and I think you covered it well. I know Fel players want their community back like it was in the old days and I think this change actually helps that.

    Now that Thieves and PK's have a chance at a big score at vendor malls... woudln't that drive people more towards community based commerce? What you describe sounds like what communities need - a reason to exist. [​IMG]

    Merchants can now partner with the community for protection and the rogues of the world can form their community to contest for either the right to shop at those malls or the right to harvest unprotected vendor malls. Sounds like a much more dynamic system than just recalling in, sfely buying something and leaving. Trammel is for that.

    -P.E.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well part of any fel dynamic is the realisation that folks get when they too NEED to shop and buy things..that they TOO need some relative neutrality when they shop too.. ie your worst enemy, the grand thief, the murderer, they NEED to buy stuff as well. There be times you find yourself telling your own guildies allies, factioners, DO NOT KILL *insert name here* they are just shopping here.. [​IMG] The buyer may be the one that normally kills u 24.7 out there ..but maybe never kills you when they are shopping THEY NEED, and they will not kill your customers either when THEY shop cuz ..they know u may ban em from the premises ..and the next one and the next till mr or mrs red one whom can not buy off of npcs also finds their own actions also got em banned at EVERY vendor house too..so they end up screwed ! HAHA They not stupid ! They NEED stuff too yes even the thieves and murderers a plenty all NEED stuff to buy too..or they sure won't get to play much if they find they can not shop no where nor safely somewhere.. so they know just as we know.. up to all of us how we get to ..DO at all ! [​IMG]

    The greater good for the majority even them..oft *usually* wins out over the *single player with their own one shooter game playing ..minorities hellbent to ruin every vendor home operation..sooner or later they will run out of smoke bombs enchanted apples potions, regs............etc...THEY NEED US too...and in a two facet shard unless they HAVE a blue in cushy trammel Luna they will not be buying there either...reds can not shop LUNA unless they maintained a blue alt. to do that for themselves. Some do not have that some do.

    But yeh one has to rethink also their thinking..the thieves sooner or later will NEED to shop the murderers that are more the true reds surely need a place to shop *unless they have blue alts* they too will have to be *vulnerable* outside our shops...........how they behave in front of any mall or vendor home..in the end, turns out or ends up how they become treated in front of any mall or vendor homes.

    *(ie it all boils down to what goes around comes right back at em when THEY need and must shop at vendor homes )* single shooter game they playing or fathoming THEY too can be *targets* Muhahaha
     
  21. <blockquote><hr>

    Jeremy: "Yes, this makes shopping in Felucca much more dangerous - a Bag of Sending might be a good thing to take with you when you're bargain-hunting! And we will keep checking the bug reports for other instances of the elusive Insurance Bug."

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Am I the only one that sees this as a quote from some one who DOES NOT go to fel or from some one who has NEVER Read one of Chad's thief stories. BOS are NOT insurable. They are a common mark for a thief.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Am I the only one that sees this as a quote from some one who DOES NOT go to fel or from some one who has NEVER Read one of Chad's thief stories. BOS are NOT insurable. They are a common mark for a thief.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You can't steal a BOS, it's a container. Uninsured pet balls - yes. BOS - no.

    On trying to steal one, you'll get a message saying "you can't steal that".

    Wenchy
     
  23. [​IMG] ???
    I missed that one
    "banned at EVERY vendor house" ...

    they cannot access the vendors from the house signs ?