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Jeremy or Robert, please -UO Wedding, UO Rudder, UOBod et al - Clarification of Legality??

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Digger McTaggart, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. Ok, this subject has come up often enough over the years...and it has been raised yet again on my home forum Oceania in this thread entitled:

    <center><font color=blue>Don't worry even the "best" of us do it.</font></center>

    Now obviously the initial post was a troll, aimed at people that use UO Wedding to play speech only macros at In-Game Weddings, Auctions, Player-run events and such, and making an attempt to liken the use of these apps to the use of other well known but not to be named or discussed "scripting" programs that we all know are highly illegal.

    Still it raises this issue again and since the EA Pro system has long gone, and there are several other UO tools now listed on Stratics that are not completely covered by the UOPro information from the EA Customer Support knowledge base, can we get some sort of Official &amp; up-to-date clarification on the use of these tools in respect of the Terms of Service and policies regarding 3rd Party Apps, please?

    Perhaps a worthwhile FoF question, Jeremy??
     
  2. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

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    I'm just curious why you need clairification on the legality of software available for download on Stratics itself? Why would you think they would leave it up, if it wasn't legal to download and use?
     
  3. Stratics is not EA. I was told by Mr. Tact in Chicago (introducing the 8th Anniv) that the ONLY legal 3rd party programs were: UOAssist and UOAM

    He said if the ones listed on stratics were used, a player "probably" wouldn't be banned or suspended.

    So - a further clarification from Jeremy at this time would be helpful.
     
  4. AdamD

    AdamD Guest

    Stratics hosts an IRC channel for a popular freeshard, they know it's illegal, but they still host it.

    Regarding the program(s) listed above, I Believe Wilki said they were ok in the past.
     
  5. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrrrr, because neither swabby nor landlubber can read da mind of a tight-lipped and permissive EA!
     
  6. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

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    I would give an "Arrrrrr" back at ya, but it always makes my throat hurt. [​IMG]
     
  7. Actually, I'm totally satisfied that any/all 3rd Party apps listed on Stratics are perfectly legal to use, however, if you read the post from the link, it's clear some others don't share that opinion and attempt to cast a doubt on using them.

    And, if you read the actual Answer from EA on the subject, and take into account that there are many more apps listed on Stratics than are actually included in EA's UOPro list, then I suppose you have to concede that while they may well, and probably do, have tacit approval, it's not stated in black and white anywhere. It's left up to our individual interpretation to some extent.

    I'd just like to see some sort of official recognition that EA Mythic understands the use that these apps are put to within the game and that, as far as they are concerned, they do not breach the spirit of the TOS.

    I would be pretty annoyed if some GM ever actioned my account for using any of them, as was indicated by Petrify in his post on Oce forum, simply because they were/are not included in the list of UOPro utilities as posted on EA's site, given that that answer hasn't been updated in years and UOPro is years old anyway.

    Plus, being accused of "scripting" at anytime by anyone, even if it's just a lame attempt at upsetting players, is always likely to be implied that you are using an illegal script, isn't it?[​IMG]

    I just think an updated reply from EA Mythic is not too big an ask and would put to rest anyone's concerns here...including mis-informed GMs.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The 3rd-party programs that are legal to use are all listed here - I think the article is fairly clear on the subject, actually.
     
  9. I have to agree. I've been asked this ingame and all i can tell anyone is the one "official" answer i was given.

    An up-to-date response from EA - Jeremy, here, would be helpful.
     
  10. Thanks for this Jeremy. Interesting that some I've been told are "ok", really aren't, i.e. UO Wedding.

    UOAssist and UOAM are not listed either - interesting

    oops - uoa and uoam are indeed listed *cleans glasses*
     
  11. Cymoril

    Cymoril Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The 3rd-party programs that are legal to use are all listed here - I think the article is fairly clear on the subject, actually.

    [/ QUOTE ]Where interpretation comes in is this point on that same link you posted...

    "any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use."

    UO Wedding perhaps falls into this category, but perhaps not. Stratics, as an official fansite, has links to download this and other applications that are not on the "legal" list. I assume they all fall into this category, or else they would be removed (they would at least not intentionally be downloadable from Stratics if Stratics believed they were illegal).
     
  12. <blockquote><hr>

    The 3rd-party programs that are legal to use are all listed here - I think the article is fairly clear on the subject, actually.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is NOT clear, if you read the entire answer it makes that vague statement about programs that do not alter the data stream or files as "generally ok"...hardly definitive and hence the reason for this post in the first place.

    So, can/will you state which apps listed and/or promoted by Stratics are ILLEGAL?

    Here's the list from Stratics Main Page, under the heading of
    "TOOLS &amp; DOWNLOADS"
    Armor Calculator
    - Barding Calculator
    - BOD Calculator Smithing
    - BOD Calculator Tailoring
    - Character Database
    - Color Charts
    - Enhancing Armor
    - Heptazane's Stump
    - InsideUO
    - UOScr
    - UO Hue Editor
    - Character Viewer
    - Journal Converter
    - MP3 Music
    - Plant Crossing
    - Potion Calculator
    - PvM Damage Calc.
    - SmithCalc
    - Spawn Map Utility
    - Stats Calculator
    - Stratics Resources
    - UOATranslator
    - UO Auto-Map
    - UO Bulk Order Deeds
    - UO Vendor
    - UO Wedding
    - Wallpapers
    - Xena's UO Utilities
    - UO Curse Tool
    - UO Macro Edit
    - UO Magic Tool
    - UO Time
    - UO Home Owner
    - UO Rudder
    - UO Tamer


    The list in the answer on EA Customer Support has not been updated in years. We all know the ones that it is clearly stated are legal, but what about all these other utilities, created long after UOPro was ceased??

    If all these apps are, in fact, illegal and could result in action being taken against accounts if anyone uses them...then perhaps you need to instruct Stratics to remove any and all reference to them?
    I would believe, as many others would, that any such apps listed on this fansite, albeit not an official EA Mythic site, would have tacit approval, if this is not the case, then I think you should state that clearly and not simply refer to a 5 year old(at least) ambiguous answer given before more than half of these tools were created.
     
  13. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    The 3rd-party programs that are legal to use are all listed here - I think the article is fairly clear on the subject, actually.

    [/ QUOTE ]Where interpretation comes in is this point on that same link you posted...

    "any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use."

    UO Wedding perhaps falls into this category, but perhaps not. Stratics, as an official fansite, has links to download this and other applications that are not on the "legal" list. I assume they all fall into this category, or else they would be removed (they would at least not intentionally be downloadable from Stratics if Stratics believed they were illegal).

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Agreed. It's the "generally", seemingly "gray" area that I think we would like carification on. Speciificity is what I think is wanting here.

    Nit-picky I know - ignore me if you wish [​IMG]
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Answer

    Only these programs are permitted to be used with UO. If you don't see a program listed here, it is not approved for use with UO.

    * UOAssist
    * UO Auto-Map
    * UO Calculator
    * UO Curse Tool
    * UO Journal Converter
    * UO Magic Tool
    * UO Spawn Map

    Seems to be crystal clear to me...
     
  15. <blockquote><hr>

    From EA's Web Site: Programs such as ICQ, AIM, UO Trace, or any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use.

    We are frequently asked about programs such as Multi-UO and some programs that automate macros in the game. Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There in lye's the problem, the part bolded, it contradicts the previous statement about data stream modifcation as a criteria.

    It leaves it up to the user to interupt, except if your interuptation does not align with EA's then they can use the bolded statement as a backup to taking action.
     
  16. It is interesting that a developer - in person - told me that the ONLY EA approved ones were UOAssist and UOAM.

    Now the "new" info from the EA site - thanks Jeremy!

    But yes - we still have questions reamaining!

    I'll stop now - I get nit-picky
     
  17. <blockquote><hr>

    UONutt: Agreed. It's the "generally", seemingly "gray" area that I think we would like clarification on. Specificity is what I think is wanting here.(sic.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly!! Which is the entire point of this thread.

    There are a heap of apps not included in that list that are used regularly and are downloadable from this site. If they are ILLEGAL, then say so plainly and clearly.

    UORudder, been around for as long as I have played the game...going on for 7 years...that's ILLEGAL?
    UOWedding is the classic example, it was obviously legal when used by Councillors to perform in-game weddings...when did it become ILLEGAL? There's no reference anywhere in the EA KB about it that I can find...yet if you read the info on the actual download page it states:

    <blockquote><hr>

    <center>3rd PARTY PROGRAM POLICY
    UOWedding is not UOPro, but it’s been authorized and used for two years by all Counselors of Ultima Online.

    The program does not interfer with the data stream in any way and does not retrieve any kind of information from the Ultima Online client. However, the program is provided "as is" and you are using it at your own risk. No implied warranty is given that the program would fit any specific purpose, and you agree not to hold the author responsible for any loss or damage resulting from its use. Although UOWedding is not UOPro, it was designed to meets the spirit of what the UOPro program was designed to do. It’s not designed to give you any kind of advantage other than saving your valuable UO macros and freeing you from typing complex sentences in Ultima Online.</center>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All it's features and functions are listed on the same page here: <font color=blue>UO WEDDING</font>


    So Jeremy, is it ILLEGAL to use or not??
     
  18. The problem with that statement is, UO Councelors have not been around in aything but Japanese shards for years, so its authorisation for Councelors to me doesnt automatically carry over to the player base.

    The second thing about the features listed on the page are these two:
    1. Unattended Speech macros
    2. It can trigger in game macroes... This would then put it in the same boat as Ghost Mouse.

    Ghoust Mouse does not alter the data stream and can be used to automate speach and can also be used to automate in game macroes the same as UO Wedding claims.

    Therefore that statement and the page hosted on Stratics does not give it automatic exception to the EA policy which clearly states "Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO"

    Good luck getting any clear definition by EA, they have stated in the past the UOPRO program is unlikely to raised again.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't see any possibility of exception in that statement - "Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO." That's pretty blunt. No?
     
  20. Well, there we have it, ladies and gentlemen! *curtsies* [​IMG]
     
  21. <blockquote><hr>

    Jeremy: That's pretty blunt. No?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yes it's blunt, and totally unhelpful...you have not answered the questions I asked about the listed apps on Stratics , nor have you stated whether UO Wedding,in particular, clearly at one time perfectly legal to use as attested by EA/OSI sanctioned Councellors for over 2 years, and then made available to the entire player base when the Councellor program was ceased is now ILLEGAL to use, have you?

    If you don't know, then fine, say so and perhaps you might like to investigate it further on behalf of your subscribers.

    It is a part of the answer you keep referring to and has been quoted here several times that there exists a non-specific reference to some apps being "generally ok to use"....what we would like to know is whether UOWedding, or in fact any of the apps listed on Stratics falls into that category?

    Pretty simple really, and deserves more than a throw away line in similar fashion to your oft quoted "Soon" and "next week" throwaways, no?
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Any app that is not on the list I linked is NOT OK TO USE. I do not see UO Wedding on that list, therefore it is NOT OK TO USE. I'm not going to go through and list every app that's not on that list, because that would be silly. For convenience, here is the list of APPROVED apps:

    # UOAssist
    # UO Auto-Map
    # UO Calculator
    # UO Curse Tool
    # UO Journal Converter
    # UO Magic Tool
    # UO Spawn Map
     
  23. Thank you very much Jeremy - appreciate the clarification.
     
  24. Jeremy ...
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] I stand corrected ...
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I know there's no answer, but how does an application get added to that list?
    Also, how would an application come to be removed from it?

    The point being that it's years and years out of date, and impossible to regulate in the way it was when created. Which leaves this sticky mess and inevitably causes these types of questions.
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    In-game speech is part of the data stream - it gets sent to the servers and rebroadcast to other clients. Likewise macros. AIM, ICQ, etc don't interact with UO in any way, that's why they're used as examples of programs that don't interfere.
     
  27. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrrr, ye all done been usin' illegal proggies and dinnae e'en know it!!
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you Jeremy for proving me right in my original post. Tsk tsk to stratics for having links to illegal programs.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Your original post?
    nevermind.
    Yeah.

    I think Wilki or Binky had said something here about those stratics proggies a few years ago. Heck it could have been MrTact or someone else as far as that goes.
     
  30. That is nonsense, and if that's your flat interpretation, then you might as well ban 95% of Fishermen and players that run In-Game events in UO right now. Probably 75+% of players that run decent sized Vendor Malls as well.

    That UOPro feature was discontinued around 1999-2000, so no other apps could possibly be added since, whether they meet the criteria or not...are you telling me that ALL the weddings held by approved councelors since they started using UOWedding in 1999, were done by using an ILLEGAL program? Should they have all been banned?

    Your saying that no possible development of any apps whatsoever can ever be legal simply because they can't get added to a system that ceased to be 10 years ago?

    Under your own terms of reference, namely that one outdated post, KR is ILLEGAL, especially in terms of altering/customising the UI by non-official EA Mythic personnel.
    Reconcile that in reference to the UOPRo stance. Might as well try to reconcile the fact that by editing KR's xml files, anyone can modify the inferface and macros etc as well, but guess what, you call it a feature??? Go figure.
     
  31. <blockquote><hr>

    In-game speech is part of the data stream - it gets sent to the servers and rebroadcast to other clients. Likewise macros. AIM, ICQ, etc don't interact with UO in any way, that's why they're used as examples of programs that don't interfere.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [​IMG] I stand corrected then ...
    [​IMG]
     
  32. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrrr, well KR do be playin' by its own set o' rules! [​IMG]
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jeremy &gt; You. Concede defeat.
     
  34. Sounds like someone doesn't like the answer.

    It was stated that those programs are not legal.

    Get over it; quit using illegal programs.

    UO doesn't need a bunch of 3rd party apps.

    Many people never even used UOAssist and they still did fine.

    KR is a new client and not a third party program, so not sure where you are going with this.

    Believe it or not, but there is people actually playing this game without everything being automated.
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Sounds like someone doesn't like the answer.

    It was stated that those programs are not legal.

    Get over it; quit using illegal programs.

    UO doesn't need a bunch of 3rd party apps.

    Many people never even used UOAssist and they still did fine.

    KR is a new client and not a third party program, so not sure where you are going with this.

    Believe it or not, but there is people actually playing this game without everything being automated.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Quoted for truth.

    If you want to have pre-written stuff in UO, just make a macro, hit that say button then type in what you want. Theirs no need for those 3rd party programs.
     
  36. Um this thread is really weird.

    I'm going to interpret this as what the TOS says.
    http://legal.ea.com/legal/legal.jsp?language=en
    <blockquote><hr>


    Use of Machines, Computers, Scripts.

    The use of machines, computers, scripts or any automated system on EA Online is strictly prohibited and may result in criminal liability under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, Section 1030 of the United States Code and/or under applicable laws in other jurisdictions. You may only play EA Online games with one type, version or copy of browsing software application at any one time. EA may terminate and permanently disqualify any Members who, in its sole discretion, determines as being in violation of these Terms of Service. All decisions by EA are final.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Programs like InsideUO, UOScr, and Journal Converter, or any web based calulators. should in no way be ILLEGAL by the TOS. They do not automate tasks in game for you, they do not manipulate the UO data stream.

    If they are illegal ban me for using Windows, with calculator for adding up my armor pieces, notepad for editing my macro's, and the windows explorer file manager for allowing me to copy my macros.txt to all my characters folders, and exploiting my print screen button so I could put a picture of my character on a website.

    I KNOW Jeremy DID NOT mean I can't do whats in my two blurbs above, common sense should tell anyone that. But really some clarification on that list so a GM doesn't ban me for using an in game macro (paste) to an in game book to publish my ramblings in game.
     
  37. I wonder if Stratics will now ban themselves for promoting illegal programs [​IMG]

    They should at least remove the illegal program links, just so they can be compliant with this masters.
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    O: Activities that are against any games' Terms of Service or the User Agreement are prohibited from being promoted or advertised on our network. This includes, but is not limited to, third party programs, game item sales for real world goods, power leveling services, and/or links to such items.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Stratics is violating its own TOS.
     
  39. Lol, what do you think UOWedding does?
    It allows you to write a speech macro, and hit a 'say' button to post it to the UOGame screen.

    But ok, Jeremy has spoken, albeit I believe somewhat ill-informed and certainly flies in the face of info given by other quasi-official &amp; official people, some of whom were/are employees of EA Mythic.
    Glamdring being one name off the long list of UOWedding credits that is still a familiar name around UO I would think.

    Not often you're wrong Pet, and you're right again!!

    I better cancel my accounts immediately as punishment for using such terrible tools. Shall I page a GM on myself retrospectively so I can be officially banned?

    Someone better tell Stratics management too, so they can delete all those references because clearly they would be a breach of Stratics ROC too.... maybe zigzag would be the best one to inform? Shall I send him a PM Pet, or will you?
     
  40. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You can do it Cellmate.
     
  41. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    You can do it Cellmate.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What th.... I don't use em, he does!! *points at Digger*[​IMG]

    Actually you know, the whole point is moot anyway, since NONE of the aforementioned apps work with KR anyway...and as that is EA Mythic's UO client into the future, with 2D being phased out over time, sooner rather than later imo, it hardly matters, does it?
    Almost all of the functions that those apps provide are already in the macro system of KR currently and/or will be added to it, that is if KR itself continues to be supported by EA Mythic, which is by no means a certainty either, imho.
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Multiple personality syndrome imo.
     
  43. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Multiple personality syndrome imo.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    We all have a fair bit of that syndrome, don't we?
    That's maybe one reason why we got 6 diff chars to play and some even play different sexes too, tho I think I'm too much of a homophobe to put on a Party dress, earings and go out in drag myself.
    Still, to each their own, I suppose, I thought that was a part of playing an MMORPG?
     
  44. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>


    Any app that is not on the list I linked is NOT OK TO USE. I do not see UO Wedding on that list, therefore it is NOT OK TO USE. I'm not going to go through and list every app that's not on that list, because that would be silly. For convenience, here is the list of APPROVED apps:

    # UOAssist
    # UO Auto-Map
    # UO Calculator
    # UO Curse Tool
    # UO Journal Converter
    # UO Magic Tool
    # UO Spawn Map


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, well thats a ******** answer.

    ICQ isn't on the list. Is it illegal? NO. Cause it doesn't interfere with UO.

    Things like UO Treasure Hunter is not on the list - but it doesn't interfere with UO at all. It just makes decoding and finding map spots easier. That one falls under 'does not interfere with data stream' and should be generally ok to use.

    Face it tho Jeremy - UO is barely able to police any of this. Script mining, script bods, and all kinds of automated skill gain go on day in and day out. Just walk around any shard. Its not hard to find.
     
  45. <blockquote><hr>

    Lol, what do you think UOWedding does?
    It allows you to write a speech macro, and hit a 'say' button to post it to the UOGame screen.

    But ok, Jeremy has spoken, albeit I believe somewhat ill-informed and certainly flies in the face of info given by other quasi-official &amp; official people, some of whom were/are employees of EA Mythic.
    Glamdring being one name off the long list of UOWedding credits that is still a familiar name around UO I would think.

    Not often you're wrong Pet, and you're right again!!

    I better cancel my accounts immediately as punishment for using such terrible tools. Shall I page a GM on myself retrospectively so I can be officially banned?

    Someone better tell Stratics management too, so they can delete all those references because clearly they would be a breach of Stratics ROC too.... maybe zigzag would be the best one to inform? Shall I send him a PM Pet, or will you?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Read the feature list, it can be used for unattended speech (unattended anything in UO is bad I believe) and it can interact with with UO Macro's. So add the unattended part and the macro part together and its all bad [​IMG]

    I wouldn't worry about banning yourself, EA doesnt really care about cheating and its not like they can detect you are using the application :))
     
  46. Guest

    Guest Guest

  47. <blockquote><hr>

    (unattended anything in UO is bad I believe)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So do I, but you can use UOAssist, an approved app, unattended as well, simply requires something like jamming a key down *shrugs*
    You can do the same thing with in-game UOKR macros as well, I suspect. KR has a repeat/loop function built in for some macros, so I don't really see a prob adapting that for unattended macroing with no need for anything other than the client running, if you were so inclined.

    And being caught for using illegal apps etc is not the sole reason for not using them, is it?
    It's an individual's choice whether to play the game fairly or use illegal apps to gain an advantage, tho I can't see any advantage anyone could gain other than avoid RSI and/or Carpel Tunnel by using UOWedding, getting caught may be a consequence but as I believe you and others have often pointed out before, it becomes a personal values issue, does it not?
     
  48. I think we are getting side tracked here.

    You asked: "Is UO Wedding allowed?"
    EA Answered: "If its not on the list its not approved."

    Any further discussion is like a child that gets told by a parent no, yet the child continues to ask until the parent seeks relief and says yes, just for some peace.
     
  49. <blockquote><hr>

    UOPodcasting: I think we are getting side tracked here

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think you might be yes...it was you that raised the Unattended Macro issue, wasn't it? I merely correctly pointed out that there are plenty of ways to do that without needing any approved or illegal apps. I would call that a sidetrack, instigated by your good self really?

    Like I said a few posts back, Jeremy has spoken and that appears to be the current situation. I disagree, but I don't make the rules.
    I even conceded to Pet that he was right! You quoted me in your post!! [​IMG]