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Killing Gypsies - the moral debate

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Martyna Zmuir, Jun 6, 2010.

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  1. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Having the new items be on the gypsies themselves, thus necessitating their deaths, is bad form. While one could argue it gives 'evil' players something to do, killing off a real-world ethnic group for their valuables is a bit tacky and thoughtless of the Devs.

    These items should be moved into the chests/barels and their spawn rate increased to something realistic.

    So far we have heard of 1 bracelet and 1 check being found out of how many people slaughtering the camps for several days now? Being rare is fine, but a drop rate lower then a tangle on an item that doesn't do anything is a bit silly.
     
  2. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Yo mean like touting cockfights in an expansion or Heartwood quests? Heartwood always reminds me of myths about the early American Indians. But instead of trading beads for Montana were are trading footstools for runics.
     
  3. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Um...video game
     
  4. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    While I definitely agree the item belongs in one of the chests rather than on a corpse (or even sold as a Monk's robe might be sold ... hell, they have to make a living somehow), it still remains to be the player's choice to kill them. You could say the Devs encourage murder, in general, because they allow the players to choose to kill one another, after all. And steal, for that matter, although, in the context of this paragraph, I suppose stealing should have surfaced prior to murder, ha.
     
  5. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Have you unchecked the "warn on criminal flag" in the option menu? I can bash the gypsies just fine in felucca. Melee tho, not using spells.

    The chests give more regs, meaning stacks over 1000. The amount of gems seems to be the same from gypsies and chests.

    Wouldn't it be nice, if NPCs in Trammel gave murder counts again? Poor Gypsies ... ;)
     
  6. Scarst

    Scarst Lore Master
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Uh, I hate to pee in everyone's cheerios but you are all missing one important thing, You're killing gypsies because they have something you want.

    That's how the holocaust started, Run gypsies Run! Hide in the attics!
     
  7. Smokey of LS

    Smokey of LS Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    exactly if you want it work for it and kill the blues. if you dont wanna play the game the wa they made it, dont try for the bracelet. oooooor quit crying and keep lookin through the chests that probably do spawn stuff, just no lock pickers have found anything. i think it should all be on the corpses for everyone a chance to get... not just lock pickers. dunno why they seem to think this is all for them.
     
  8. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I think this is another ridiculous argument by you against the Devs. Why haven't you made these arguments against the killing of ettins, ogres, trolls or other racial groups? Or is the tacky and thoughtlessness on your part because you'll only decry the killing of those more like you than those who sit in their own lands and are slaughtered and plundered?
     
  9. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Exactly, And what about the tamers who kill all the polar bears.. Poor things. :( First they start getting sent to a Tropical Island in Lost, then killed by tamers!
     
  10. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Unlike polar bears, gypsies does lower your karma.
     
  11. Scarst

    Scarst Lore Master
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I'm sorry I was kidding around Because gypsies were part of the peoples put into concentration camps and killed and was making a comparison it was a joke.
    It's not like the people killing them are doing it out of hate and it's just a game I was kidding around but I thought peoples would see that.
     
  12. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    They should bring back a bunch of Lord British NPCs so we can all kill him for his cool looking armor. Maybe have a contest to see who kills the real LB on each shard and win a rare LB throne.

    Gads, this game is so ef'ed up.
     
  13. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I know you were. :) It actually does raise some interesting topics of discussion, however. Someone pointed out that you don't lose karma for killing polar bears, but these gypsies are human, right? We're assuming they don't have their own skeletons in their closets (err, tent chests). If you objectively think about UO, which race is truly the most evil? Is it the ettins, trolls, and ogres who sit in their dungeon and co-exist peacefully with each other? Or is it the humans, who come in and slaughter them and indeed slaughter many other species in order to plunder their gold and magic items? This debate has raged for quite some time with gaming regarding alignment systems and karma systems. Those are basically a justification for killing "the bad guys" in-game. Anyway, my issue isn't with these systems. For us, we add more depth to the conflicts in our writing, exploring the moral dilemmas as we go.
     
  14. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Devs, there's no way to stop this "slaughter", nothing the "good" guys can do about it. This just doesn't sit right as far as the game goes, for those of us who want a sandbox game. It's pure gamey, from all appearances.

    I'd be all for it if there was some means to stop it, to fight against it. But there's not.

    Consider this my protest for the sake of the kind of game I want. I don't know how many others are out there who feel like this. But it's not what I want.
     
  15. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    So is everyone upset because they are Gypsy camps? Will it calm people down if they were just renamed to something that wasn't a real population?
     
  16. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    The whole thing is troubling. Mostly for the very real issue of putting it in a game to slaughter a real life people who are portrayed in the game as pretty defenseless.

    There's also the issue of how UO is done and presented to us players. This is a much lesser issue, but still an issue.

    The whole thing is very tasteless, and racist to it's core. Not only is the game sucking more and more, then this real life representation that looks like racism presented in game form.

    And as far as the game goes, it wouldn't be enough to allow players to defend these NPCs. The idea of rewarding players for being "bad", and not for being "good". But overall, in the real life context, it leaves me pretty much speechless. I can't even find the words for this, even as obvious as it should be to all.
     
  17. canary

    canary Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Oh, like turning in blackrock for nice prizes to blow up Haven.

    Or letting people destroy Magincia to earn rubble.

    Yeah. There need to be incentives to like, you now, do good deeds once in a while in the game.
     
  18. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Dear god. Use that brain cell for a second. Are ettins, ogres, trolls REAL racial groups? No. Are gypsies? Yes.. Though in reality they prefer to be called Romani, as 'gypsy' is considered derogatory slang.

    So, before opening your mouth and proving your an idiot, do a little research and think a little harder.
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    It wouldn't be any different than putting any other ethnic or religious named group in their place.

    The thing is, I don't want Gypsies to be taken out of the game. I think they can serve as a marvelous source of information and knowledge. Their lifestyle is unique and has been used in literature and arts many times in well done ways. And I've always felt that UO had a special place for them, as I suggested.

    I do not want a battlefield emergency surgery reaction to this.

    But damn, Devs. What the H were you thinking?

    And Canary:
    Yes, exactly.
     
  20. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Have you ever played the video game Age of Empires? Those simulate warfare between different civilizations, in essence groups of people. Nobody decries this game as advocating genocide despite the facts it's each civilization trying to destroy the other. The idiocy here is that you would equate something similar in UO and attack the devs for it. Again, if you stick to your guns on this, then that also means you advocate murder, as you play a game which has pvp.
     
  21. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Not the same thing at all. You're comparing a historical game that has some redeeming value to historical genocide with no redeeming value whatsoever.
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    ...

    Oh noes! I killed a few looking for one of the new baubles! How will I ever live with myself?

    Ya know, on the scale of atrocities, this one ranks... ummm... no, wait, no it doesn't.

    Ok, MAYBE, just MAYBE the devs screwed up the loot tables. It's possible, maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

    But for something to be "racist" there has to be an intent to denegrate the targeted race.

    Do you remember a LONG time ago when Nobles were being "escorted" out of town and killed because their loot tables were so out of kilter (400-500 gold + magic items all the way up to Vanq/Invuln)? Noone posited the idea of "race" then because noone cared. Granted later on, the devs (at the time) tried a few "fixes" (giving them mercenaries that spawned when you attacked) that COMPLETELY MISSED the actual problem (being more lucrative to slaughter than to escort them).

    Did the game slide into irreparable repair because people were out killing nobles instead of monsters? No, nor will it here.

    If there's an issue with the loot tables being switched, then see if you can get a feedback bug report sent in, try Ask The Devs, or come to the next HoC and ask there.

    Should the new items been a possible Stealing target instead would that assuage your guilt? Personally, I think it's a lot of bellyaching over a very minor issue... especially since you can't commit "genocide" in a game that is constantly recreating the race being killed (Yeah, they tried to create such a system where such an action would have such a consequence, but that went south really fast in the name of "realistic isn't always fun").

    Anyway, the new baubles have a cool concept, and if I get a set, I won't complain... gives me a reason to further develop my lockpicking stealth character beyond a BOD mule.
     
  23. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    It's a video game with historical ethnicities being slaughtered. Same thing. Players can kill innocent shepherds, but does that have redeeming values? If not, why aren't you complaining about that? How do you justify killing in a game period, based upon your "redeeming value" argument? It's just an argument that doesn't float in my opinion.

    Now lets talk UO. Gypsies are in UO because they've always been in the Ultima Saga. Like many other works of fantasy, the creations of the game are often based upon aspects of our own world. Do you decry the fact that players go and slaughter ronin and ninja which obviously come from the Japanese culture? Does that mean they are suddenly prejudiced against the Japanese? There are viking swords in the game, so what if there were vikings on long ships raiding the seas? Would that be genocide too having to fight them if such a thing existed?

    If you think they are singling out an ethnicity for slaughter due to malicious purposes, you need to take a step back and get some perspective. It's like saying Age of Empires is encouraging warfare among different cultures. You guys are reaching.
     
  24. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Well put
     
  25. dum3886

    dum3886 Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Damn... u guys must have nothing better to do if an argument like this comes up.

    It's a game... Why won't u people start complaining about killing deers or bulls etc... call PETA or the RSPCA or something?... why don't u complain about over fishing?? oo that's right.. its a game and there can never be over fishing because the UO world is NOTHING LIKE THE REAL WORLD(infinite resources).

    No wonder this game is sucking more and more... they give u something and people whine... they don't give u people something... u whine... i.e: Trebr other post crying about how you are being forced to play a certain style to get power scrolls. Have a look at my reply to that post and see how dumb your argument is.

    And as for anyone who things powerscrolls should b in trammel bcz it forces you to play a certain style. Then u might as well make CC spawn on mongbats plz.. bcz i don't want to be forced to fight peerlesses which take ages to kill... i don't want to be forced into the play style of fight peerless. Also plz make doom items randomly spawn in my backpack whenever i log in bcz i don't want to be forced into the play style of fighting monsters at doom.

    Ok lets all start making a list of whatelse we should take out if gypsies r out.

    1. Fan Dancers... racist against japanese...
    2. All the Black Order NPCs at the citadel + the Ninja.. Racist against japanese.
    4. Mummies - telling ppl looting the pyramids is good?
    5. Sphinx - same reason as above

    that list took me mm about 5 minutes to find i am sure there r more.
    Ok.. not all have large benefits of killing but there is still gold.. large incentive or not to kill is irrelevant it is still an incentive.

    Talk about double standards amongst the people here in stratics... when it comes to something they care about they cry... but they r all for killing all the japs or egyptian pharoah, or other ppl who were mummified... Think there is racism in the game? look at yourself first please.
     
  26. WootSauce

    WootSauce Lore Keeper
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Really, this is a video game, there is loot to be had. That is all.
     
  27. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I for one think all of the "spawns" including brigands, orcs, etc should have unique reasons to track them down. I really think they should ALL be in the chests, or at least most, just because lock pickers need more stuff to do.

    I do think it was kinda silly to pick the ONE blue spawning group, then give people incentive to murder them, when there are grey and red groups that will spawn and try to kill YOU.
     
  28. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    True and to the point.

    People are just arguing for the sake of arguing. As long as there is any kind of connection, no matter how remote, you can bet there will always be a couple people to shout racism and argue it.
     
  29. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Truly one of the worst threads ever. It started off great and I appreciate the find and sharing of the bauble. The rest of the thread is....well.....
    :sad2:
    :confused:
    :sad2:
    :sad3:
    rolleyes:
     
  30. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Skim-reading here, but it seems like *one* person has an issue with gypsy killing. I kill gypsies and have fun. But I lose karma for it. Fair tradeoff!
     
  31. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Oh for Christ's sake. Hey lets single out *one* person. But no, there seems to be more than just me.

    I'll tell you all what. Lets change the "Gypsies" to "Jews". That should be OK with you people that are OK with this. I mean, it's just a game, right?
     
  32. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Also, it is all about choice. What you kill is up to you.

    A little reminder also. Anyone remember those orange gloves and gorgets? Black sandals? Paint brushes? Red sandals? These are just examples of how killing NPCs - even in towns - yielded rewards. Horrific, really.. an NPC escort wants taken to a destination, only to be lured out of town and then brutally murdered for what they are wearing. And did nobody ever think it profitable to kill NPC rangers for their fairly good quantity of arrows?
     
  33. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...


    Now wait a second, when Black Sandals were first being obtained I was not playing yet, now when people started Fire Fielding NPC's in Town after UO:R was launched well... I had runes to every single Jeweler and Tailor shop, and Guard Wacked my fair share of NPC murderers...Of course after they had looted :)
     
  34. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Thats just plain ridiculous. I'm sure not all gypsies are Jews. But i'm not discriminatory - if they have a bracelet, i'll kill them - gargoyle, human or elf!
     
  35. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Europa didn't have too many people that did that. Had it happen a few times, but often people didn't realise what I was doing and the black sandals were left on my corpse.

    Purple potions, provoking, fire fields.. the best was the ophidian invasions recently - those berserkers killed all invul NPCs! Including ones set up by EMs..
     
  36. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    No one really dies... It is just a game. Kill a balron, kill a mongbat. kill a gypsy... it is all the same.

    To each, thier own.

    no real pixels are harmed. they respawn... I have seen it.
     
  37. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I think the only problem is that Gypsies have something new that is desireable and it appears that the only way to get these items is to kill them. Nobody makes you kill them and, well, you lose karma if you do.

    At the end of the day, gypsies have been killable for over a decade, as have artists, miners and wandering healers. What is the big deal now?
     
  38. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    I did it often, nabbed over 100 pairs doing it. Actually had someone page a GM on me for it...was funny when they had to explain they were upset because I legally guard wacked and looted them while they were exploiting a bug..
     
  39. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Oh, I dunno, maybe because the game has decided to reward it's players to mimic a real life genocide?
     
  40. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...


    I killed the real estate brokers on every shard. They always had TONS of house deeds on them. I decided to become a broker because I had the gold on every server (minus the ones lag would not allow me to get a FireField to the NPCs in time).

    also remember using a polar bear to hunt the gorgets *sigh* those were good times!

    p.s. and NO, I never had the thought of "yay!! murder!!" going through my head.
     
  41. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    From another website:
    "It is known that perhaps 250,000 Gypsies were killed, and that proportionately they suffered losses greater than any other group of victims except Jews."

    I dont care really...Its just a game....But I CAN see where you are coming from. If the NPC was "A Jew" and you had to kill them in order to get a rare bracelet...the tone on this board would be different.

    But like I said...its just a game to me. I DO think this should be loot in the chests @ the camps but whatever *shrugs*
     
  42. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Wow. You guys need to enroll in a local History 100 class immediately. Judaism is a religion, it has a central birthplace, but being a Jew does not pin you to the globe because it's a religion. That's like saying you could change "Gypsy" to "Catholic," etc.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion over what a Gypsy is. They are a people from a specific region, like Spartans, or Sicilians, or any other well defined people. And I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to joke around about the holocaust, but to give some quick historic reference, the etymology of "Gypsy" comes from an erroneous tie to Egyptian heritage. The Nazis targeted Gypsies, Slavs, and Jews, three separate "groups." In reality, the Nazis killed anyone they wanted. It was basically like saying, "Hey, let's kill everyone wearing the color red today."

    Obviously, Mythic should check the way the items are spawning and put the loot in the chests instead of on the Gypsies, because the name of the NPC doesn't matter, they are human form, and that is the only thing that should matter when morals are concerned. To compare killing six or so NPCs in UO to the holocaust is fairly ignorant.
     
  43. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    We are not being forced to kill them, it's an option. No one is even telling us to kill them. It's a sandbox game, it's yet another option people have in this game. Good and Evil are in this game, if you want to be evil and get rewarded, so be it. As for the people who say "we can't defend them!", uhhh yes you can. Go to Fel and hide where they spawn...

    Also should all Male characters be Invincible because we are forced to fight wars? How about all dark skinned characters because of slavery in the US? Or all female characters because of the oppression of women?

    ... No, none of that happened in UO. And either did the holocaust. Relax people, the Devs are not out at the tattoo parlor right now getting their Swastikas touched up.
     
  44. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    These posts were moved from the other thread, where they were derailing the topic.
    Personally I think people are twisting things to make a mountain out of a molehill. I doubt very much that the devs equate uo 'gypsies' to the RL nomadic people.
     
  45. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    Grow up, this is a fantasy Role Playing GAME, this is a GAME Period, similarities aside this is just pixels, NOT REAL. This outrage is unwarranted, and no one complained about gypsies dieing before this stuff came out. No one is crying about all the dogs, "cu's" that die because someone is wanting a particular color, This debate is idiotic at best, similar to calling PETA because a pixel animal is being killed in a game.

    Again this is a GAME NOT Real Life, I am Slaughtering Pixel Gypsies, Did before these new trinkets came out, and will do so for as long as UO is still active, If you are so worried about Pixel Creations dieing in a GAME you need to step back and take a breath there is a world outside.
     
  46. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Change them to Alvinho's or Alvin's everyone can kill me in a video game, not a big deal, hell on that note make it big white guy i could care less, this is players playing a GAME killing Dots with a bit of color in a game not real life people dieing to get trinkets.

    Farming Medusa's for items is folk being raciest to mythical creatures and i demand the developers change this aspect of the game, Medusa's should be invulnerable.
    Do you see how asinine this sounds making demands to change a game because someone don't like what happens in it, this is why AOS came about and changed off a lot of folks, people cried that they were being killed, in a game mind you, by other people.
     
  47. Siteswap

    Siteswap Visitor

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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Ok ok then. How about you put some rare gold ring drops on the black NPC's in the game to encourage us all to go out and kill the blacks. You can also rename the NPC's to a word beginning with 'N' too. (Romany travellers find the word Gypsy racist and offensive for comparison).

    Is this ok? No? then why is it ok to do it with Gypsies?

    And youre the UO content guy? Sheesh.
     
  48. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Gypsies have been in the game and killed for as long as i can remember, get over Pixels dieing in a game that encourages killing people and creatures.
     
  49. Siteswap

    Siteswap Visitor

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    Re: Something found on a gypsy corpse...

    Its the fact that the Devs are ENCOURAGING us to kill them that is the problem. How about they start putting rares on all female NPC's too, to ENCOURAGE us to go out and kill women?
     
  50. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Pft. This whole argument is solely because the NPCs are named gypsies. How about we just remove the title "gypsy" and rename them to wandering campers. Problem solved, lol.
     
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