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Kingdom Reborn = In built speed hack.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Petrify, Nov 26, 2008.

  1. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    As title says, anyone running KR is automatically faster than 2D. Any time you turn a corner in KR it skips, heavily, exactly the same as when somebody is using a speed hack. It's extremely obvious and annoying, if you have the time get someone in KR to run around in a square and watch them skip every time they turn a corner.

    It's been like this since release, I don't know if it's EA trying to lure people to KR or what but it's really, really frustrating trying to kill people who use KR for the sole reason of it being a form of speed hacking.
     
  2. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    It feels like KR client is slower when there are massive graphical effects on screen tho.
     
  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    So, just because it appears to be skipping, you assume KR makes you faster than 2d?
     
  4. Fink

    Fink Guest

    You don't seem to slow down when negotiating obstacles while running due north/south/east/west. You kind of ricochet off them at 90˚ instead of going *clunk* against them & having to manoeuvre around them like in 2D. Very handy for trees & other blocking play-field clutter.

    I wonder, if the SA client isn't wholly adopted, will certain "upgraded" features such as these make it back into the 2D client?
     
  5. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    It does, it functions exactly the same as a speed hack. Every time you change directions you'll gain 2-3 tiles on someone in 2d. I've never played KR, but have played with people who use KR and they appear as if they are speedhacking on my screen.
     
  6. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Well, how do you know they aren't speed hacking? Skipping on a screen doesn't mean they are speed hacking or faster. I've had people tell me I'm skipping before when I am simply running around. Just get someone reliable to log into KR and have a race. Or try it out yourself. I've played KR and and if anything, I think it makes me slower.
     
  7. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    lol... just lol.

    For the year+ I've read threads about KR lagging, people unable to PvP in KR and so on, we get this gem of a thread.

    Just... LOL.

    I'd wager that the speed increase is a simple matter of a client that has not had the past 11 years' worth of tinkering done to it (on top of tinkering on top of tinkering) and as such uses much more streamlined code.

    In short... it's just one of the aspects of client improvement.
     
  8. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    It all averages out over time - just have a dragon flap appear onscreen and flap its wings a few times and a KR client will grind to a halt, if not crash :)
     
  9. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Besides... how do you prove they are in KR at all unless they say they are (or appear in the general channel of chat assuming you actually checked)?
     
  10. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    Test it with someone, sit in 2d and watch them run around in KR.

    Then laugh.

    Because they were in my guild and I've been in vent with them? I've tested it on several occasions with numerous people who I trust.
     
  11. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I've tested both side by side myself (2d on my laptop (which runs KR smoothly BTW), and KR on the desktop. The movement as you describe is about the same.

    If I run from point A to point B regardless of client, I notice that I reach point B FIRST on the system that is doing the running. The OTHER system has a small lag time this is NOT client dependent... if I run in 2d, I will arrive in the 2d screen on the designated tile before I do in the KR screen and vice versa.

    Also as stated, you get somewhere where there are either 1. a lot of animation effects occurring (like the heart of an invasion battle), or 2. an area full of dynamic objects (such as Magincia island before it "cleaned up"), and the speed performance drops NOTICEABLY even on smooth systems.

    As stated, the pathfinding is a little more forgiving in KR than in 2d, and there is a small speed boost thanks to newer technology/code being used, but it's NOT a speed hack.
     
  12. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    If you don't see the skipping which is identical to that of a speed hacker then you're lying.

    So, I suppose people who speed hack are just updating there technology? It's identical to what a speed hack does. Small boost or not it's increasing your speed above what was intended i.e speed hacking.
     
  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    KR: New better grahic processing. Does not lag out on art shifts (example turning).

    2d: Decade+ old. Does poorly in art shift situations. Lag on turns.

    Its not hard to figure out whats going on. Its not some devious ploy by the dev team, KR just processes crap faster.

    I posted this finding ages ago myself, and delcared that it was too bad I didnt like KR otherwise, because it was much faster.
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    And if you're complaining now, you're going to need to duct tape your head for when it explodes, because they're working on further client optimizations and memory footprint reductions which may mean more speed and smoothness.

    There's still no speed hacking going on with KR... it's how the client runs and it isn't even fully optimized (as mentioned in this very thread).
     
  15. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    So now people who actually are speed hackers can just say they are using KR then everything will be okay?

    Like it or not, people are paying for the same game, and are being disadvantaged by not using KR.
     
  16. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, sure. Most people who PvP, though, prefer 2d since it is a lot less laggy. But then again, perhaps KR runs as fast as it is suppose to run since it is a much newer client.
     
  17. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    I know, however there are a few who do use KR and run it fine, with no lag. If you can deal with the annoying graphics then your way more advantaged than the average person using 2d.
     
  18. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest


    Sooooo....Play KR. Problem solved.

    Next! :loser:
     
  19. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    thats right,i tested this also.

    the main problem i have with KR (so i cant use it in the event :( ) my avatar is dead bevore i can see it.
    all items pop in the backpack, the monitor freezes for a sec and then i see all in monochrome.
    after ressing, some items are gone (invisible) and my avatar run naked and sidewards
    plus the crashes,more crashes in KR as bevore the event(700mb patch)

    all in all KR for me personal is unplayable in events (3 different pc systems tested)
    :(
     
  20. Dain

    Dain Guest

    Did your point A to point B route have a corner/bend in it thought?

    To people that PvP there is most definatley a difference in performance - KR players DO have an andvantage when it comes to movement, dressing, pack organisation and macros.

    The speed difference is certainly a major imbalance but is not the only aspect that needs to be looked at. I understand that the KR client is DESIGNED to offer new options and possibilities for users but I don't think that it should give them any advantage over players who chose to stick with 2D.
     
  21. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    DEr rock - known issue - and it's not with KR, but your graphics cards/drivers/direct x, IIRC. The exact info is probably something Dermott could help you with.

    People post about once every two weeks with those issues on the KR forums, and usually get it ironed out, if their card isn't too ancient.
     
  22. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Kr does not "skip", it may seem like it to you running on 2d because there is a small delay with the 2 d client when turning corners or changing direction, this does not happen in kr where these actions are smoother and quicker. Without graphical lag issues sush as dragons spell effects etc, a character using kr will move faster and smoother when turns and directional changes are taken into consideration. Simply try running in circles in kr and 2d and you will see a big difference. Yes it is noticeable, but as far as i'm concerned its just the result of an updated client and the sooner sa is released (complete pls not buggy and unfinished) the sooner everyone will be able to benefit from this, which incidentally will reduce the speedhack menace.
     
  23. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    A test I've done.

    Maximize performance on both clients(frame rate skipping2D, minimum animationsKR)

    Shard. Chessy.
    Course ran. The first house encountered east of Luna, straight through Luna, to the void out the west exit from Luna.
    When. Primetime.
    This course was ran about 10 times with each client, alternating between runs.

    2D time was approximately 44 seconds.
    KR time was approximately 33 seconds.

    That was with no turns because KR does turn faster. 2D uses an animation check when turning directions that I haven't noticed. It is really obvious when you are weighted down, and you turn direction, you can see the loss in stamina as if you took a step forward.

    Like the old saying goes "If you can't beat'em, join'em"

    Any reason not to is simply that person holding themselves back.
     
  24. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    KR handles lag better than 2d. The answer isn't to slow down KR.

    The answer is to make KR reasonably useable for everyone.

    You should be happy that there is a legitimate client that can perform as well as the old client when people are cheating.

    I guess people can whine about anything! (Oh no! You can move fast if you use the new client!!!)

    LOL
     
  25. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I used to say that KR was extremely laggy.

    However since then they have obviously done A TON of improvements as well I also upgraded my video card slightly (It's still WAY old a NVIDIA 6800 opposed to the 5600,? I think, that I had)... So when I actually attempt to play in KR now I can actually move what I feel is faster or at least as fast as 2d now.

    However I still never use KR because I can't seem to transfer over all the macro's I normally use in 2d to KR the only one's I have yet to figure out are the unequipping of my weapon drinking of a pot and re-equipping of the said weapon all at the use of ONE single Key.... I can't figure out how to do it in KR..... also I can't figure out how to set different weapons to arm or disarm. If I could figure that out I might be up to trying KR in an actual Dungeon or *gasps* PvP.....


    So when I learn how to do more of the things in KR that I do in 2d I just might switch..... I recall when I began UO I played 2d but as soon as 3rd dawn came out I played in 3d almost exclusively until I began to PvP on a regular basis... I found that 3d lagged up horribly whenever heavy animation occurred like spellcasting or hit spell weapons went off.... Also doing a trade with anyone in 2d while you were in 3d was next to impossible.... I have not really traded much from 2d to KR so I'm not sure if it does the same thing or not but I do know that trading from 3d to 2d was nearly impossible. It's also extremely obvious still when someone sets up their vendor in KR as opposed to 2d... It looks VERY sloppy in 2d and you wonder is this vendor on drugs???? Then you realize that infact the person was using the grid in KR which results in a jumbled mess in 2d.

    So if I could find a good KR macro teacher and take some KR macro setting classes I just might make the jump to KR (If the dev team would upgrade and improve the male paperdoll to not look like a 50 year old man suffering from massive hemorrhoids using 2 canes to walk with some sever dunlap disease, to making a male look more like the buff well fit good looking sort of chap he is in 2d. Oh and get some more faces to chose from cause those that are available are hideously ugly or have silly expressions.... My character is a Knight... he wants to look serious as well he's Drow so looking like MR smiley face is not going to be his main expression.... he needs to look more stern and well.... mature... ) sorry.... I am rather touchy and wordy with how I think my character "should" look... But KR is improving... Slowly. I'm hoping that SA fixes all this.
     
  26. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Run a corner perfectly on the 2D client on an ideal setup, and you'll probably look like you're speedhacking too.

    The 2D client performs better in some situations, while the KR client performs better in others.
    The KR client does seem to win more often in the most typical situations (frequently having new dynamic objects to display), and the more forgiving pathfinding around corners gives the appearance of an advantage in some of the situations where both clients are equal or the 2D client is slightly better.
     
  27. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Yea we tested this with our guild like month ago also. If you are in chasing situation, other one on KR other on 2D, when making turns KR user gets few tile advantage, just like speedhack on 2D does.

    If anyone says otherwise go and test it, I can assure that we tested this with many comps and even putting 2 comps next to eachother using same connection. KR gives you advantage when making turns. But as long as speedhack exists I don't see need to fix this, it gives way to fight speedhackers in legal way. Thou I still use 2D and I don't speedhack so...I dunno. If I'd haveto choose between fixing this or speedhack I'd definitly choose that fix speedhack.
     
  28. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Assuming your computer can handle KR like mine can then here's a few comparisons. On that, I must also say I'm honestly confused when I see the same people whining they won't upgrade to run KR and then post saying how their rigs can handle Crysis on Ultra High, 1680x1050. Fair's fair.

    2D Vs. KR = Faster here, slower there.. But over-all KR handles it all better.

    2D/Hack Vs. KR = No questions about it, hack all the way.

    2D/Hack Vs. KR/Hack = You cannot hide it. "Discreet" just got blown out of the window.. At least with what I use, no matter how much I tinker with the options. :eek:

    An interesting point about the 2nd case is that KR will "mask" skipping caused by hacks probably because of how it handles stuff. You will have somewhat increased difficulty spotting speed-hackers if you don't repeatedly fight them.

    Then there's the issue of the characters not being exactly where you see them per second and perhaps KR was meant to eliminate this thus "masking" skipping as a side-effect.

    And lastly there's the player's skill in evading you during a chase and knowledge about the "map" they're fighting in. The latter is far more important. Many times on my Ninja I'd just skip a corner fast and hide. And people would continue in a straight line past me yelling "HACKER OMG". So there's also that kind of situation.

    In the same sense some confuse me about their hardware, some others confuse me with their claims about their connection speeds, then whining about speed hacking.
    Furthermore people saying they're on KR as an excuse is far smarter than coming with the old "I ping 0-5".. Or "I live next to the Server" ... Or even the favourite "My dad haz me a 500Terra connection from outter space" kind of replies. :scholar: As said, most of them confuse me with their contradictory claims over time.. Even though it is usually me blamed for contradicting my self in my posts(often without any evidence).

    See you around, sorry to sort of intrude.
     
  29. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    Except for the constant crashs, blurry graphics that make you puke after 5 minutes and an unintuitive targetting system. I seriously couldnt use KR with a mickey mouse PvM vamp dexer that hardly used bandages.

    If EA fixes the crashs, graphics and the user input is 100% like 2D, SA will be a huge success when released in shops. Hopefully they are getting feedback from players now and ignoring fanbois who think everything is perfect.
     
  30. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    How do you play in KR and use UOA at the same time and have the Legacy 2d graphics?

    I've heard that you can play in KR but using the 2nd graphics of Legacy...but I can't figure out how to use UOA with it...
     
  31. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    I agree, this is the same topic as the 720 skill point issue.
     
  32. Messiah

    Messiah Guest

    I'll never play KR, one of the worst attempts at making a 3D game (IMO ofcourse), I think the graphics are horrible.


    Furthurmore, I've yet to come into anyone that can outrun me on a regular basis, and that's without me using speedhacks, simply the fact that i ping under 20 to all the Eastcoast shards except catskills where i ping under 15 on a regular basis, and I have an extremely good computer.


    I just can't wait for people to start posting on here "Zomg nerf KR people are to fast and i can't catch them" :hahaha:
     
  33. all we can say is play KR then , if you dont like it , well play another game , like I am.... :coco:
     
  34. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    This is a bug or hmm should i call it a feature of the KR Client. It comes with the "last" big patch, at the beginning of this year (omg). They dont have time to finish the KR Client, so they coded a speed patch, but they couldnt test it because of the move. The problem is that KR isnt updating it's position regulary enoguh to the server, because the KR animation for movement is longer around 1- 3 secs and then it looks in 2d like skipping around.
     
  35. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    Again, it is the end user holding themself back. I can't argue against the crashes, they are, admittedly, a once every couple hour issue, for me. I don't play UO for the graphics, so I'm not going to let them hold me back. I actually prefer the landscape and particle effects of KR alot more. The targeting system in KR works for me. It can auto target myself or others w/o a key stroke, if I wish, which makes things a bit faster, for me. I am able to use KR with a mickey mouse PvM bandie dexer.

    I am sure the Devs are taking this feedback to help SA to be alot more widely accepted. I'm also pretty sure that there will always be people who'll refuse to switch for their own reasons. It's those personal reasons that they are holding themselves back.

    Generally, I use 2D when I tend plants(habit, no real issues) or stock my vendor(so that the display looks better for 2D users, KR users needn't worry about vendor organization); I use KR for everything else, including PvM.
     
  36. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    I turned frame rate skipping for 2D on to give myself better performance. Because of that it appears that other people 'skip'. I don't know if that plays into anything or not, just what I've noticed. Do you know positively that they purposely 'coded a speed patch' or could it be that they cleaned up memory leaks and other lag causing issues that was desguising an intended performance threshhold? I didn't write the code, did you?
     
  37. love2winalot

    love2winalot Guest

    Hail: I actually did time 2 different charaters running between the 2 caves in Ilsh. and i am faster in 2d than 3d. Both on foot, and mounted. I did it again on test center, and same results.
     
  38. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    Yeah I agree.

    If you have a good enough computer not to lag when playing KR, you will run much faster than anyone on 2d. If you get someone to run around in a small circle in KR you can see it extremely blatantly... anyone who says it just "appears" like they are speedhacking, they are speedhacking, they have a significant advantage over anyone using 2d.
     
  39. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    Frame rate skipping has noting to do with it, people who are speedhacking or playing KR will skip regardless. And it's been like this since KR's release, I remember noticing it the first day it came out.
     
  40. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Force people to join Factions for items, they love it.
    Force people to run KR for speed, they hate it.

    All those arguments about paying the same $$ mean nothing. You don't pay to shape the game, you pay to play it. No likey? No pay, it seems. Cruel and effective.

    Go figure. Hey, just join the club and hack away or get KR.
    Just like others joined Factions and farm silver, or will hunt Champs for the items only.

    It really is you holding yourself back - IF KR is for you as fast as it is for those people. It seems results vary.

    SA may put an end to this... separation anxiety..
     
  41. Petrify

    Petrify Lore Master
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    I hate being in factions just for the items. Makes people way more afraid to die and thus run more from me.
     
  42. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Don`t worry if KR is a speed hack. You can kill them about 5 minutes after they use the client. It seems to crash after 5 minutes. Which gives you a minute to kill them before they can log in again.
     
  43. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Zalan : LOL! :bowdown: