1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Lawsuit against cheat programs

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Bama, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. Bama

    Bama Guest

    Why has EA not brought a lawsuit against program sellers who creat these cheats to interfer with their vitrtual property? not to mention my game enjoymen!
     
  2. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    EA can't even be bothered to put boxes on the shelves, or spend a single dime on advertising.

    Do you really think they would be willing to front the large amount of money that a lawsuit would require?
     
  3. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    397
    Still a big fan of the in game type GMs POLICING the game. Seems to be to most cost effective way to solve the problem. With the extra powers in game they would in time learn to reconize theese problems. Players in game find ways to identify theese cheats all the time with our limited game mechanics. Accounts start getting caught and banned, fear is a greater obstacle then ways of getting around some new code.
     
  4. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    Because it isn't against the law.
     
  5. Tek

    Tek Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    3
    The most used cheat program is distributed free, not sold.
     
  6. Nine Dark Moons

    Nine Dark Moons Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,687
    Likes Received:
    43
    Setnaffa - just read the links you posted - very interesting!!! cool to know that gamemakers can go after bot creators.

    i wonder if a program like this could be utilized by EA...?

    "...Blizzard responded with a utility called Warden, which tries to detect illicit third-party programs..."
     
  7. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you sure?

    http://www.webguild.org/2008/03/world-of-warcraft-lawsuit-no-bots-allowed.php
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-9991451-93.html

    It might not be criminal (Infraction/Misdeamor/Felony), but it probably breaks some type of civil law. The lawyers EA would need to hire would cost way more than any damages they'd receive. EA has to determine if they are losing enough revenue to validate a lawsuit. My guess is they determined there isn't enough to gain by suing the offenders.
     
  8. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,087
    Likes Received:
    45
    If these programs are disrupting you game play so much, you take them to court.
    Small claims is cheap.....though, I have a feeling you wouldn't get too far.....
    would be intresting though to see how serious the judge would treat this.
     
  9. CatLord

    CatLord Guest

    But... that would would stop us from pvping, owning felluca and having the monopoly of powerscrolls... plus how would we gather resources, do the bods, quests and get runics and hammers? Not to mention making slayer spellbooks!

    /end sarcasm.
     
  10. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    We would be talking about a civil suit , not a criminal offense....
     
  11. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
  12. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    But can't we simply agree that cheat programmers should be tarred, feathered, strung up by whatever appendage is handy in the sun for a few days then drawn and quartered by bee-stung gaman and leave the quibbling over terminology for another day?
     
  13. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    The only thing they could get on those programs would be that they are against the TOS. And even then, all they could do is terminate accounts that use the programs, (the TOS states that is their recourse.)

    As a consequence, there is no purpose to sueing the developers, as it is the people they SELL the programs to that are causing the problems.
     
  14. Nine Dark Moons

    Nine Dark Moons Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,687
    Likes Received:
    43
    the program used by most people is free - the developers don't sell it to anyone - but i agree. i wish EA could introduce some type of scanner that could detect 3rd party programs. can't be that hard, can it?
     
  15. Assuming for the sake of argument that you can find the program authors or resellers to sue and they live somewhere that you can sue them, what are your legal damages and can you recover these from them? it's hard to find any assets A 17-year old hacker living in his mother's basement has to seize. If his mother's basement is in the Ukraine they'r even harder to get at.

    If they're writing programs that help break into EA's game servers and alter data that's another story: Now you're talking felony hacking. But writing a program that makes it easier on his own computer to execute a complex set of keystrokes automatically isn't in the same league. The litigation would cost tens of thousands of dollars and recover pennies in damages. Just not worth it.
     
  16. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    They've thought about putting in Punkbuster, but that's a really bad idea. It combs through your personal files, and the general UO playerbase refused to have anything to do with it.

    You can't just scan the running programs because you can easily rename the illicit program's executable (.exe file) to whatever you want to aviod that.

    The easiest way for UO to dramatically reduce cheating, and eliminate scripting completely as it currently exists, is to stop supporting UO2d.
     
  17. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obviously it is not against the law to make a cheat program. But then again it is not against the law to own a gun or write a computer virus either. The law might be broken when the cheat program is implemented or made available for use, just like firing a gun in public (or at someone) or letting a computer virus loose on the internet is illegal.

    Any act that is prohibited by law is, by definition, illegal. There are criminal laws (murder, burglary, fraud, theft, etc.) and civil laws (property, copyright, patent, and personal laws). In this case, EA would have to prove properties (subscription fees) were lost due to unauthorized cheat programs or copyrights were infringed (much tougher to prove in this case).

    Whether a law has been broken would be up to the courts to decide. Personally I don't know which direction a judge would see it, but EA could definitely put alot of money towards winning it.
     
  18. Larry

    Larry Guest

    What cheats specifically are we talking about?

    Speeders?
     
  19. Gawin

    Gawin Guest

    by failing to file any thing against said program in over 9 years there is a little thing called Implied consent. by doing nothing for such a long period of time they basically condone the use.
     
  20. Gawin

    Gawin Guest

    This is so FALSE please stop spreading this

    there is a working KR cheat progy

    and there will be a working SA cheat progy

    the single best way to handle scripting is a properly trained GM staff and a program that scans sever side for any client that is logged in 20+ hours a day doing the same thing over n over.
     
  21. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    10
    What does the KR cheat program do?

    You know why not much has been ever done about cheating or scripting? Lets pull a very small minor number out of a hat... 50. Now if we hypothetically assume that 50% script or speedhack, then if EA does something to stop scripting or speedhacking, a chunk of this 50% will quit and UO will be a lot less profitable.
     
  22. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    I call BS. Google says otherwise.

    Link me via PM if you've got something legit. They didn't come up with anything for UO3d in all the years it was running, I highly doubt they have anything for KR, and if they did it'd show up on google under UO KR "cheat", "script", or "program" (which it didn't, to be clear).

    I'm not saying that the GMs aren't the best way to go, just that that requires money that EA has shown its not going to invest. If anything, they've been trimming the GM staff. What we need to stop scripting is to have, as I've said before, a dedicated GM staff which only deals with cheats, and have a dedicated paging option that goes ONLY to that team to reduce hold times and encourage paging.

    That's not really true. With the advantage removed from the game, many people will be fine with not having speedhacks as their competition won't have it either. As for scripting, the majority of people who script use it for raising skills or doing tedious tasks, which the UO:KR system does a great job adressing. I understand why you'd think that, but... If 30% of people order a certain item while its on special from a fast food restraunt, do you think 30% actually stop eating there when the "limited time only" item is gone? Of course not, they order something else.

    Much like the people who used to do [insert flavor of the month template here] template decided to move on to other chars, so would people who took advantage of certain cheats find other ways (largely) to prosper or "win".
     
  23. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    This entire paragraph is full of the opposite of the facts.

    Punkbuster says in its Terms of Service that it has the right to scan any file on your computer. This does not mean that it does or the developers plan to. It is to protect them legally in case of a lawsuit. Punkbuster only looks at game files and programs running in the memory in case they contain signatures of known cheating programs.

    Renaming a file will not avoid detection. It is what the file does or contains which you scan and detect.

    Cheating programs are made for everything. No one made any cheats for Kingdom Reborn because it never took off. Being a very old client has nothing to do with whether cheat programs are written for it. Darkfall came out a month ago and there is rampant speedhacking in that game, enabled by 3rd party programs. UO doesn't have that type of speedhacking anymore and hasn't for about 8 years now.
     
  24. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    Is it? Lets see.

    What the script program does varies from script to script. While its true that it interfaces with the game, if it does so like other script/macro programs, it sends signals to the game just as though they were being typed. The actual file is quite small, and if the variance of what it scans your memory for is that little then I don't see it realistically working. Hey, I'm not a programmer, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. After all, anti-virus heuristics (sp?) are an amazing thing and work off of very small patterns. I remember when the Punkbuster stink was on, and the conversations had. I'm commenting on the input that was offered then, as these ideas were never refuted by anyone in authority and are the major reason no one wanted it (and thus why it didn't fly).

    That's absolutley true, however... I've noticed a certain lack of them in other games, as well as in UO3d. It could be that the GMs take cheating more seriously in other games.... but the cheats there were there, weren't used popularly unlike the cheats we have for UO. UO is also unqiue in having multiple clients to my knowledge. From what I understand, UO2d is unqiue as well in the amount it has been reverse engineered. I've heard a few different accounts, and I didn't come around until AoS so I can't honestly say for sure... but its been said that many of the UO programs, including UOA, were produced after the sourcecode was accidently released on an expansion CD.

    I've messed around before with a macro writing program and had it record something that let me fish in UO3d without having to click a bunch. It was mainly out of boredom (ever try to raise fishing???) but it worked. Something like that could and probably will be done with future clients, however there isn't a unified plug-your-script-and-go client for that as of now, and as far as I know there's no way to retrieve the all important ItemID or type in UO:KR (or in UO:3d before it was axed) which is required for the majority of scripting we have today.

    My point is that yes, some cheats are exected with any game or client, but the vast number that utilize the UO2d client, and the incredible ease of use of almost all of them, has said to me for a long time that something has to be done. Personally, I'd prefer they increase the GM staff as my above post states, but I don't see that happening.
     
  25. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    At first I was not going to chime in on this topic as the majority of my reply would be dealing with a third party program not used for UO. I have decided to add my two cents after a conversation with a friend who was able to eloquently state that while the program itself is not used within the realm of Ultima Online, the lawsuit itself can have a major impact on the game. Which is something I was very aware of, but I do have the rare moments where self assurance is lacking and I start asking myself if I'm just inserting my opinion in order to be contentious. [It's only honesty folks! Some of us are argumentative as a means to create a pseudo confidence in ourselves.]

    Note: I am not being a troll, I think I present my case fairly well.

    You're right, a lawsuit does not mean that illegal activity has taken place. This case has had a ruling though and the opinion reached was that the company is in violation of the terms of service used by Blizzard. While it's also true that an appellate court can overturn the judgment of the previous judge, until that happens [which I doubt after reading the the statement of facts from both companies and the ruling] they are in violation of civil law. Therefore they have committed a crime. When all proceedings are final, other companies will be able to use the rulings to easily win their own lawsuits against outside companies developing programs designed to target their property. If all goes as planned it will be a huge victory for gaming companies trying to stem the tide of third party cheat programs.

    You're also correct that the case is still active within the judiciary system, but what does that have to do with promoting your original statement concerning the legality of third party programs or of the reply directed towards you disputing your claim? If anything it shows you have no understanding of legal system. True it's not illegal to create a cheat program in regards to single player games and I do not see it ever becoming illegal. This case though, is showing that the opposite holds true for the multiplayer genre of gaming.

    I'm also quite interested to find out what you meant by these words "That ridiculous case." I was under the belief that you take a strong stance on the use of outside programs but I could be wrong. What makes you feel the lawsuit is "ridiculous"? What events or facts have lead to this opinion? Personally I find the case to be very relevant, it could in theory have a lasting impact on online gaming and the wants and needs of their player bases. Lets face it, this isn't a case concerning some moron who spilled their coffee on themselves and believes their entitled to a monetary restitution for emotional distress. The original lawsuit wasn't even started by blizzard, although it was coming.

    Edit: I was wrong to take a jab at someone in this manner. I apologize.

    Sorry if this offends you, I know most will say I intended too but whether you believe this or not; It's not my intention to insult you.

    Lastly, is anyone else here insulted by the claims that one of the intentions of the programs creator was to help facilitate disabled players? Does anyone really believe this load of crap? I hate to make a judgment call but I seriously doubt this prick had any notion to help those with disabilities while creating the program. Really I'm more insulted by the fact that they tried using it as a defense in court and how they had that fat twit Markee Dragon championing their cause. [If naming someone is a problem, please change it to "The fat twit who ran the well known UO rares website" to avoid erasing my entire post. Thank you!] This idiot actually made a Youtube video on the subject, which just goes to show how insightful he truly is. I also think it's important to note that any sort of "logical argument" presented by someone who ran an exploit site should be taken very serious.

    Much love!
    EggRoll

    [Sorry for any mistakes in grammar or spelling. I'm quite tired.]
     
  26. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    You scan for the program, not the particular script being run.


    This paragraph is all wrong.

    The more popular the game and the longer it has been out, the more cheats. World of Warcraft has tons of cheat programs for it. Blizzard just shuts most of them down quickly. All games take cheating seriously. It is the level of enforcement and available man power. EA doesn't hire enough Gamemasters and train them enough to track down who is doing something bad. UO is not unique in having its client/server code reverse engineered, all major MMOs have had it dowe. World of Wacraft certainly has.

    Finally, UO's client code has never been accidentally released or event released. People are always confusing this with the Second Age demo, which people reverse engineered and was able to find some exploits with. All that is long past.
     
  27. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    I am not following the case at all. All I know is that there was a ruling but there seems to have been zero action taken. For example the website of the defendant is still online and the program is still for sale. So it isn't done yet.

    I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one. One thing I do know is you can sue anyone for anything. But you need an actual law to back your claim up or the case gets tossed. The judge or jury decides if the cited law was broken.

    I am against cheating in MMOs, it takes the fun out and I don't do it.

    As for my opinion on this case, I find it riduclous because (from what I understand) Blizzard is trying to get the creator on a technicality in copyright law. Blizzard is claiming this guy infringes on their copyright by modifying their game on a user's system. Copyright law is supposed to protect intellectual property creators from having their works ripped off and profited from. If this case is upheld then it would be possible for Microsoft to sue any program they don't like because it modifies the Windows operating system. It is a ridiculous notion and not in the spirit of the copyright law.
     
  28. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    I don't mean to sound shrewd but you guys make it sound like there's this big list of cheats being used in UO right now. I would dare to say you are wrong. The only real known problem is exploiting game mechanics (not technically a cheat you can just "detect") and speed hack. Also, that thing with the WoW suing the scripter is awesome. Too bad WoW sux. Oh and scripting is of course a biggie but I don't see that disappearing anytime soon since so many big names use it.
     
  29. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    I must admit that I also do not follow this case either. All my "facts" came from a quick glance of the court documentation and one Youtube video I had been advised to take a look at.

    Anyways, I would expect and hope microsoft to sue anyone who writes a program that has a negative effect on other users. Personal mods are one thing, but it's when it effects the usage of others is when it becomes a problem.

    I also believe the defendant in this case has made a rather large profit on the program in question.

    It seems to have great relevance within the realm of copyright law.

    I agree with the sentiment though that if it doesn't have any adverse effects on others than it shouldn't be bothered with.

    Cheers
    EggRoll

    Edit: Damn I just noticed I should have been a bit more in depth with my statement concerning the profits made and how it has an effect on the case. I promise I'll get to it tomorrow! Sorry for being so vague but I have to get some sleep now.

    Edit II: I'm starting to wonder if I'm OCD! I just wanted to point out the reason that no action has been taken yet is because ir'll be far easier to take said action once this dope loses the appeal. By having everything shut down it will require not only a order by the district court judge, but that order can be appealed to the US court of appeals for yet another round and that in itself could turn into a huge time waster. I see it as Blizzard wishes to end this as soon as possible and will do so by avoiding any unnecessary court appearances. I also have a feeling the defendant knows he is on the losing end of this and will try to drag it out as long as possible in attempt to profit a bit and possibly hold onto said profits in some type of plea deal.

    Lastly [Whew], this fellow only has one appeal. There's no reason whatsoever why the supreme court would hear this crap.

    I'm not proof-reading this edit or anything, I'm going to happily stumble towards my bed.
     
  30. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    Honesty time! I don't play UO at all and haven't since prior to the age of shadows expansion. I hit these boards up due to a disturbing urge to play again. So with certain aspects of the post made here I am totally lost. With this said, I must ask. What do you mean by "big names"? I understand what the two words mean of course, I'm just curious to the context of it.

    Ohh and it seems to be UO has a rather large cheating problem, it just comes and goes in regular intervals.
     
  31. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    Well, considering you don't play the game and haven't played since Age of Shadows, then you probably have lost sight of what occurs in the game (just maybe.) I'd rather not go into your question because it is quite obvious, especially to anyone who plays on a regular basis.
     
  32. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    And just to nitpick, I was curious how you can possibly know if UO has a "rather large cheating problem" if you haven't played since Age of Shadows? And if anyone is wondering, I am in no way supporting cheating of any kind. I am pointing out that the original poster seems to think there are actual cheating programs out there that allow players to levitate above houses and have 1000 HP or something which is not the case. The only "cheating program" is really the infamous scripting mechanism that most of us know about.
     
  33. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    999
    Actually, it's not just a technicality. What WoW Glider does (well, one of the things)is read what is stored in RAM. There are quite a few write ups about what it does and why it's illegal.
     
  34. Modifying RAM isnt illegal in any means on your "home" computer.
     
  35. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    10
    Create macro in KR, assign to key, then use any automated test program to trigger keypress ad infinitum at regular intervals. I also assume that any speeder program would work too.

    If 1 in 5 of the hypothetically tiny minority 50% accounts shut down, thats $1 million bucks a year.
     
  36. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    10
    Create macro in KR, assign to key, then use any automated test program to trigger keypress ad infinitum. I also assume that any speeder program would work too.

    Now if 1 in 5 of the 50% accounts shut down, thats $1 million bucks a year.
     
  37. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    So reading and writing to RAM is illegal now? We are all breaking the law by using our computers!

    Here is the judgement you are referring to:
    If I read this right then Blizzard contends that Glider violates copyright law because it copies the code in RAM. This is by the very definition a technicality and utter nonsense that the court is interpreting copyright law in this way. This happens far too often when it comes to cases involving computers.
     
  38. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually this is true; every time I try to poke some random values into RAM Windows always starts complaining that I've caused an illegal operation. :(
     
  39. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Seriously though;

    Huh? You can't run a program without copying it into RAM. You have to do it. It isn't an option. Either you dump it into RAM and execute it from there, or you don't run it.

    That is to say, authorisation to execute code is, in itself, authorisation to copy said code to RAM.

    (And don't start on about "page files" either, those are for programs that aren't actively being used. Leave your computer doing "nothing" long enough and Windows will eventually page pretty much everything, just because it can - hence why it takes a while to "wake up").
     
  40. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    While reading and writing to RAM isn't illegal, Writing an application that writes to RAM (or storage device) in such a way as to cause a Buffer Overflow (or other unexpected result) that allows the author's application to exploit the other application in ways it wasn't meant to be used (i.e. malware launching zombies or botnets) is illegal. A judge could categorize WoW's nemesis software as a type of malware. That might be stretching it a bit, but we'll see what happens.
     
  41. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Oh ... that a dangerous stand to take Setnaffa. I don't like the angle of JC's presentation on these issues, but the one thing I do feel strongly about is that "my computer is MY computer" - nobody but me should have the final say about what bits go where on it.

    I prefer server-side controls/tripwires/captcha-challenges against client-side mischief, even if that sometimes trips up hyperefficient flesh-and-blood players a little. Although I rant against hacking the client, ultimately I believe that the game should be designed to be fair and fun no matter what is done to the client and that ideally the game ToS should apply only to packets once they cross into EA's network.

    But it's an imperfect world.
     
  42. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    999
    True, your computer is your computer, but Blizzard still owns the rights to their code, even when it's on your machine.

    And if something violates those rights, it doesn't matter whose system it's on, it's still a violation.
     
  43. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    Has anyone ever told you that you're a very negative person, and that your attitude is not particularly constructive toward civil conversation?

    Because Blizzard is willing to invest in the battle against cheating, they shut the cheats down. EA doesn't, and thus we have the cheating problem we have. You can say whatever you want on this, JC, but the fact stands that the majority of cheats used in UO are only usable with the UO2d client. That is not opinion or conjecture, that is fact. If my memory serves, you've always been a big advocate for the 2d client. I'm sorry if it gets your panties in a bunch, but its true.

    Now, do I want to see UO2d get canceled? Not particularly. Too many people like it too much... It does seem like a cost-effective hatchet, so long as there's an alternative client that the 2d users can get into. I'm thinking SA will be that client, as they originally talked about not allowing 2d into the SA expansion areas. We'll see when it comes out.

    Again, for the third time, I would love to see... Ah screw it, read one my previous posts for the stance on improved paging options. FFXI introduced something like that and cut botting by RMTs by a stupifying amount in about 3 months.

    I played WoW briefly, never really got into it. I have friends that are hardcore WoW players, and you know I've never once heard them ***** about cheaters. That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that its not disruptive enough to their gameplay that they feel like mentioning it while they talk about whatever raid they're doing or what class they're leveling now or whatever. I played FFXI for 3 years. The worst any player I ever met did was run an illegal third party windower that had a couple of plugins. I've lost touch with them, but I knew a couple of LotRO players. Never once heard them complain about cheating. In UO, its a hot issue because the majority of players use some kind of "cheat", even if its just a skill gain script. All these games are also much more popular that UO is, yet they don't have rampant cheating. FFXI is only a few years younger than UO, plenty of time to reverse engineer, yet there's no plug-'n-play script program there. No speed hacks. Sorry JC, it just doesn't hold water. When EA gets serious about enforcing its ToS, we'll see a reduction in cheating, and not before.
    ---

    Yes, you can write a macro in UO:KR and have a standard macro program send it keystrokes, but you cannot do anything complex like most scripts. For that matter, for those Punkbuster fans, it'd be extremely easy to fire up, say, autohotkey and make a loop to execute a UOA macro. That doesn't stop cheating. If you pair a proggy like AutoHotkey (used for writing standard windows macros) with UOA, you've got something comperable to a standard UO script.
    ----

    I've made all my points a couple of times now, and I'm just going to leave this thread until the inevitable lock. Unless we see boxes on the shelves in game stores and some ads to attract new players, we will NOT see a revamped GM system. Maybe with SA.... Right now, EA just can't market the current clients. People will actually laugh at the graphics, as I'm sure we've all experienced when trying to recomend UO to a friend a time or two.
     
  44. Nabber

    Nabber Guest

    The biggest reason that Cheat programs do not bother WOW players is the ability of said players to enter into an "instanced" area which prohibits others from cheating against them.
     
  45. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    Yeah, well, in my ideal world all code would be free-to-use-as-desired too :)

    (I wanted to say "open source", but although it springs from the same root philosophy, it isn't quite the same)
     
  46. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,154
    Likes Received:
    708
    But it doesn't cause a Buffer Overflow. It reads and writes to the values as you would if you were playing yourself. It is just the program plays for you.
    Blizzards investment against cheating was creating the Warden program, which is basically Punkbuster. EA tried to implement Punkbuster for UO but it proved unpopular, mostly due to privacy concerns. So you can't say EA does not do anything when they tried.
    Because Blizzard does a good job keeping their image nice and clean. If you play long enough or know where to look, you'll find the cheating. If someone starts UO and never reads any UO forum and just plays the game, they will never know anything about cheating either. When you are playing the actual game you don't see any cheating.
     
  47. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    You would rather not go into my question? I doubt it's because you would be pointing out the obvious. Come on man, what a joke. More than likely it's the fact that your argument will be crude at best. I have a idea of what it might be that you meant by your original comment, but I'm not here to spout theory. I will say this though, if it is what I believe than your concept of "big names" is just an assumption that you would love to be true.

    It's not like the knowledge of what goes on in this game is confined to only those with active accounts. The amount of information one can acquire just by using this website is rather large alone, and than when you add in all the other player owned sites and forums, one can pretty much feel as though they still have an active part in the game. You just need to have a talent for weeding out the BS. =D

    Oh and you're quite right that I haven't played for many years, which is why I find it humorous that you claim that there is only one "cheating program". I haven't played for years and I can name two right off the top of my head that are used heavily. You still play right?

    Cheers
     
  48. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah. Server-side controls are better for the author of the software as well. It's much easier to limit exploits.

    You must remember, you own any hardware you buy, but you only buy a license for most commercial software (even free software can be licensed). When you install the software, you are governed by the End-User License Agreement which, somewhere among all the legal-speak, states you cannot alter the software in any way.

    As an example, here is a typical EA EULA: http://files.ea.com/downloads/commerce/eula/en/eula.pdf

    When we play UO, we are governed by the ToS, but when we install and use the software, we are governed by the EULA.

    Again, I have no idea which way the WoW case will go, but I'm sure EA is closely watching the proceedings.
     
  49. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    Hehe, well would you care to state what exactly these nefarious two that you know of in fact do? I'm sure they involve duping, pking players in one hit, or invincibility correct? I mean they surely couldn't be something as ridiculous as a speed hack that is already controlled in game (no one can get above a certain speed in UO). Or the scripting program almost everyone knows about who isn't a noob. Also, please take into consideration we are taling about cheating programs as you stated in your quote and as the original poster stated. Exploiting game mechanics (which I think is what everyone in this thread is truly upset about) is cheating but it's not a program someone just runs and viola.
     
  50. Mattitracks

    Mattitracks Guest

    Sorry I have a hard time taking anyone serious who starts a reply with "Hehe".

    To answer your question though, no I do not care to name them here. This is obviously not the place. To end this, I don't think it's worth even debating the issue with you. You talk about one extreme of exploiting and than your last sentence made no sense at all. Feel free to redeem some pride by throwing more random garbage out there, I will not be getting in your way.
    You sir, win.