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Legacy Dungeon revamp (real)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Skrag, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    * Delete all ice and snow elementals from Ice Dungeon
    * Delete all gargoyles and hellhounds from Hythloth
    * Delete every monster that nobody kills on purpose
    * Replace them with something someone might want to kill

    They don't need to be high-value monsters. They can be monsters a newbie might want to kill. (The ettins in Despise are probably the most-killed Legacy Dungeon monster.) But in all these years nobody has ever killed an ice elemental on purpose, so why do they exist?

    People kill Balrons. They don't kill them in Hythloth though. They kill them in a dungeon that isn't wall-to-wall nuisance monsters.
     
  2. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    I go to Ice to kill Ice eles. I go Hythloth to kill balrons. Do not speak for me.
     
  3. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Yeah yeah, Legacy Dungeons are thriving hotspots of UO PVM activity. Everyone totally farms ice elementals for their 150g or whatever. God you can't post "poop tastes bad" without the one person who loves poop self-righteously crying that you're "speaking for them".
     
  4. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    I will reply to this when I finish farming Ice Elementals for that new "Festive Robe".
     
  5. I actually think Skrag has a good idea here. The legacy dungeons are dead empty all the time. I have suggested this before, and a bunch of people told me that these dungeons remain the way they are in order to give new players a place to train up. The problem is, there are no new players.

    If you remove the easy monsters (like they aren't *all* easy enough) from these dungeons, and replace them with something that is a threat to a player...it also cuts down on scripters.
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    All monsters need a serious revamp in terms of loot more than they need to just remove things.

    They really should do a booster that is just revamping old dungeons and putting a few boss type encounters, stealables, and dungeon specific stuff like arties.

    For hyth, covetous, shame, despise, deceit, destard, and wrong.
     
  7. Cailleach

    Cailleach Certifiable
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    If there are no new players, why do I keep giving armour, advice and rune books, with runes to 'beginners' dungeons, to players with young tags?
     
  8. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    I have been noticing a slight increase in the "young" tag here lately, and a definate increase of noobish questions in gen chat on Atlantic.
     
  9. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    and don't forget imps
     
  10. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    you don't want to foght lower end monster go deeper orelsewhere

    There still new plaers and lld ones who actually trains thier skill when they want to work them. Just because you see no need to fight these low ebd critters does not mean they have NO use.

    Your opinion is welcome but, I vote NO

    :loser:

    Wait this wasn't a poll ah well perhaps it should have been.
    :scholar:
     
  11. unified

    unified Guest

    Sorry, Skrag, but you can't speak for me either. I can't understand why you would even suggest such a change. Obvioulsy, if you want more challenging creatures, then there are other dungeons. :sleep2:

    I have been playing this game for a very long time. There are still dungeons I have not mastered and creatures I cannot solo. Although my oldest account is nearly 11 years old, school and work, and leaving the game for months at a time has made it impossible to be the master I should be. Couple with the fact that the greatest amount of time I've spent in this game was training up skills for the 100th time as I try to keep up with the template of the day, and crafting. Of course, I began with PvP and then more for support. Some of my characters are not even GM, and it is no fun standing there with the best sword swinging at air. Taming has taken me forever and a day just to get to 90. I have 100 taming only due to jewelry through imbuing, and even that skill has taken me nearly a year to get to 120.

    I would also like to see legacy dungeons with other players like it used to be, but the middle ground should not be me getting killed time I enter a dungeon by some creature with high resists and stats and ridiculous hitpoints that can heal itself. I do hate that they removed the Juka Warriors (and Trammel itself) from Wrong and replaced them Lizardmen, so now there are two dungeons with Lizardmen. How studpid is that? :coco:
     
  12. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    I quit reading your post as soon as it was obvious you hadn't read mine. Any newbie that wanders into the dozens of elementals stacked on each other in Ice Dungeon is a dead newbie.
     
  13. unified

    unified Guest

    You did read my entire post, just like I read yours. Stop trying to low-grade insult someone by saying that, when we all know it is not true. Otherwise, I could have actually changed my mind in the post and agreed with you, but you would not know unless you read it.

    When you make these types of post on a diverse board, be prepared that others will not agree with you. That's life, not a game.

    I've read other threads you've started and, although I did not agree with them, I read the long pages of text you've written just to be sure. If you assume that I would be insulted because you said that you quit reading my post, then you are wrong. I am simply amazed that you are not open to other's opinions when you actually started a thread. Of course we all know that you lied and that you simply did not like that I did not agree with you. Case in point is that nothing beyond what you've quoted from me had anything to do with you. Therefore, it is just the same if you did stop reading because I was through with you after that point. :hahaha:
     
  14. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    What really made the old stomps fun was the Black Rock Infestation. There needs to be a new set of sashes put into the game with three levels of hardened spawn that worked like BR spawning. Three levels of paragon/BR infested insanity chance with some cool loot bump to reflect the level of spawn. I'm talking epic fight that out shout on chat would draw in help. DUring the turkey hunting all a player had to do was shout out Paragon Turkey in the Meer city and players showed up. Every palyer has a fav critter to hunt or memory of noob grinding. Just getting a BR infested chest from that creature type was a goal of some players. WE could use more 1 in 25000 chance cool item spawns in the game. Just don't screw up and tell us that they are out there.
     
  15. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Agreed, even if the sashes are not there, just turn the BR infecting stuff back on. But, increase the chance of it turning a critter to the infected state a little. I know there were a few times I would walk around for six hours before one turned.
     
  16. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    Actually, I'd be satisfied if each dungeon had a peerless associated to it, all facets have an arty drop like the anti-virtue dungeons, and black rock can infect monsters in any dungeon.
     
  17. N49ATV

    N49ATV Slightly Crazed
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    They need to boost item quality, not gold. They need to scale the spawn more, increase the higher end spawn, and decrease the lower end spawn.

    They need to allow for different materials to drop in old dungeons or artifacts. Right now the virtue artifacts just are not worth running the old dungeons for. Just no reason to go to them, when there is more gold, better items, and materials that will sell available elsewhere.
     
  18. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Possibly one of the things I most dislike on these boards is when someone says 'nobody does this' or 'everybody needs this'. No one can speak for everyone. No one should assume that because they want something, or don't do something, no one else does either.

    I often visit the old dungeons, I use them to train skills on new characters - I 'play' my training, I don't macro it. It's meant to be part of the game.
    I use them to train pets, I use them to gather imbuing gems - steal + kill on a gargoyle can net you up to 8. Not important on a shard where they're cheap to buy, but I also play on Siege.
    I use them for a myriad other purposes that you'd probably find boring, but I play for fun, not profit.
     
  19. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    Merry Christmas!

    I agree. We do need some new life in these dungeons but on the other hand, I also agree they are pretty awesome the way they are. The last character I trained up was a bard/necro and I got to do the whole thing in KR.

    So, it might hurt the game to change the spawn but that would be a real bummer for my characters that can just stand there for hours.

    How about a compromise where they add levels to the dungeons and maybe some rooms and such.
     
  20. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I think the legacy dungeons need a bit of work, but not in terms of removing creatures or bumping them up. But in terms of how the spawn actually spawns. In some locations in some dungeons it is somewhat pointless for newer characters to even try to fight in there due to the excessive nature of the spawn. And it is pointless for more advanced characters as the expressiveness does not make it challenging enough to be a challenge nor profitable enough to bother.

    I am with petra on the fact that I use the legacy dungeons to train my characters, and for a myriad of other activities. But I have to say they do need a little bit of tweaking, maybe even better scaling of how the monsters are located, or how they spawn. I think the monsters alone are easy even for new characters, or even new players. But with how they currently spawn it is a game or trying to lure one away, or "just enough", that or it is just to easy. Lots of opinion on this topic, and can more than likely come up with dozens of ideas but generally speaking...I do use the dungeons all the time, so simply removing critters is no good, also replacing them with other monsters that spawn elsewhere is also pointless as I can already fight those in other places.
     
  21. I would suggest higher end monsters or mini-champs be put in the dungeons with the catch that they will not attack players who have not reached a certain skill or fame level unless they are attacked first by those players.

    So, you could conceivably have a young player fighting ettins while a veteran is dealing with some Lurg or Miasma-level monster on the same screen. It would be optional for that younger player to join the harder fight.

    Kind of off-topic, but I also wish a veteran character's fame and skill affected how those lower level monsters reacted. Basically, to some extent I think mongbats should be fleeing from legendary glorious lords instead of running into their swords (unless you attack first). Either that, or just make an auto-loot gold option and I wouldn't mind fighting all the mongbats and headless you can throw at me (headlesses? headlessi?).
     
  22. unified

    unified Guest

    I like the ideas stated above, that HOW creatures in dungeons are spawned will certainly make a difference. Especailly HongKongCavalier's suggestion that low-level creatures show actually be running from certain characters based on fame and skill.

    While the OP's idea of outright deleting certain spawn may not be appropriate, the reasoning is in the right direction in that certainly the spawn should be looked at.

    Along with Petra Fyde & Cloak&Dagger, I use legacy dungeons to acheive goals I may not be able to elesewhere. For example, I can farm fertile dirt for my gardening all day long in Shame from the Earth Elementals, along with the added benefit of getting gems for imbuing. And, nothing can beat gathering Zoogi Fungus off of Ants near Wind and avoiding paying for Powders of Translocation.

    Something else in the way these creatures spawn, especially for newbies, is the number of spawn in the dungeons. Most dungeons are empty because some single players can't handle the spawn when other players are not around. Maybe the spawn should happen dynamically at lower levels of dungeons based on how may players are actually in the dungeon at a given time. And make high end creatures respond like treasure chest guardians that pop back to the chest if an attempt is made to lure then away. That way a newbie player won't get killed instantly by an Executioner that was lured to the entrance of Wrong.
     
  23. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Skrag: so true. self-righteousness has been elevated to superhuman heights on these boards. I may use this quote in the stratics banner I was planning to make.

    to your original post: it is not just the legacy dungeons that suffer from the same issue, it is about 90% of the game. The intensity of the damage we do nowadays makes fighting 90% of the current monsters a one-hit no-loot kind of affair. I agree with you whole heartedly.

    Oh and merry festivus.
     
  24. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    leave the dungeons as is for spawn just add something to make killing that spawn worthwhile say after 100 ice ele's die a renound ice ele spawns and comes to kick ass.
     
  25. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    14 day trial accounts?
     
  26. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I agree that this is the problem, I think most of us see that.
    Veteran characters have "leveled" past these dungeons. But if the answer is to increase the "level" of the dungeons, that hurts the other end of the spectrum, players who don't have "leveled" characters.

    This problem has been noted for years in MMORPGs as various terms like "inflationary power gaps".

    To me, the real answer is to remove the inflation of power, ever increasing strength, and replace it with:
    • Ever increasing new abilities and cool fun powers that are still balanced within the original structure
    • new and truly rare items of value to collect and trade
    • new trade skills and their associated resources
    • new add-ons to the dungeons (and overland too) in the form of secret rooms and caverns, along with clues (some easy, some hard, and a range in between) laid out in the game world for players to discover and solve, then discover the secrets and treasures within.

    On that last, they could create a set of these "rooms", and use instanced technology. Not instanced to the players, instanced to the location portal (the same sort of portal that is used for a dungeon entrance), instancing each one to the entrance. So any player entering a certain portal would enter the same "instance", and see whatever is within it. Once discovered, of course, any treasure could be taken, but it can remain to be used for spawn or even events as new clue locations or hidey holes for evil beings. Or even have more of these "instanced" hidey holes added to them too.

    Basically, there's a boatload of other things a game can do for interesting, exciting game play besides simply always increasing power in the combat form (as opposed to range of ability, economic, etc.).
     
  27. Felucca

    I say leave the trammel dungeons the same....up the felucca ones. Who the hell is going to kill an ettin or lizard man in felucca?
     
  28. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    um change the trammy dungeons dont touch fel ,if you need to add a dungeon thats fine or maybe add loot for trammies that want to hunt in fel,but most fel peeps like dungeons the way they are
     
  29. Raptor85

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    I still do, and always have trained using the anti-virtue dungeons (and ice/fire), I don't get the trend of people training all skills to GM hiding in a house. I like most of the monsters listed as "useless". While not seperately powerful, when you're not 7x GM with a full arty suit out to make millions...500 gold at a time, they're an extra challenge to the area. (The ice ele's especially, with their area cold)

    Not everyone plays UO to grind endlessly, and not every monster, mongbat or dragon, needs to drop items more powerful than anything that existed in UO's first 5 years of play.
     
  30. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    I agree. Thanks for your thoughtful post. The instanced portal idea is cool, simple and would add tremendously to the adventuring spirit of this game. Plus, it could easily and constantly be updated with different monsters and stronger opponents...

    It is however human nature to always wanting bigger and better. In real life that is difficult to achieve, hence it is pursued games. Simply gathering cards or items for the sake of collecting them will get somewhat old too...
     
  31. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    In all my decade-plus of UO I have never ever ever ever seen anyone who looked like they were killing an ice or snow elemental on purpose. Maybe because they got bogged down running to one of the worthwhile monsters. Maybe because they had to get to a player corpse in there. But in the entire history of UO not one single human being has ever decided "I will kill snow elementals today!" and anyone who says otherwise is lying to try and score forum points.

    Same with all the gargoyles in the Hythloth Balron room. Nobody goes there to kill gargoyles, there's a bloody BALRON in the room. The gargoyles are just there because 13 years ago some designer thought filling dungeons with garbage monsters was important for some reason.
     
  32. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Killing != farming

    You won't ever see players hanging around in those areas because those players are moving through, killing stuff, not sitting there waiting for respawn and farming. Just because a monster doesn't give good loot when camped with a greater dragon for 3 hours doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place in the dungeon.
     
  33. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Petra is correct stop talking for us... we are big girls and boys and can do our own foot in mouth thank you.

    As for a revamp... I think a tiny vamp of the loot table for them perhaps to make them more in tune with the newer dungeons. Spred the wealth.

    New players have been poping in and I have seen them on many shards of late. The message might be getting out there.

    Oh , amd btw I do hunt odd things once in a while when I need something I know they give. WW give nice amount of leather, 1 at a time spawns and i can pick the t chests while i wait for a new one ... the occasional ice ele gets wacked if he pesters me.
     
  34. Most fel players don't really care. If a change to the lizard man/ettin area to a dungeon effects how you pvp....then something is probably wrong.....on your end.
     
  35. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Newsflash - Fel is not a giant pvp arena, many of us here never pvp at all. (unless attacked, obviously)
     
  36. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Yeah, because this is how UO PVM works in the real world. People amble through dungeons mowing down random frost spiders and hellcats and garbage like that for 80 gold each. Why am I supposed to take a post like this seriously?

    Obligatory Stratics community "STOP SPEAKING FOR ME, I LOVE THE TASTE OF POOP" posting aside, Despise is actually a very well-spawned Legacy Dungeon. Most of the things in there are things someone might actually want to kill. Maybe just newbies beating on ettins and trolls, maybe tailors killing lizardmen for hides, but one way or another people do log into UO on a regular basis and say "Time to go to Despise and kill those things!"

    So no, lizardmen and ettins are great. People kill those things all the time.

    What I'm talking about is how a lot of these old dungeons can't put a lich lord in a room without spawning five bone knights next to it just to annoy you. Ice Dungeon has three good monsters: Arctic ogre lords, ice fiends, and white wyrms.

    Those are all keepers. But what is the point of this whole area?

    [​IMG]

    What is that? Nobody kills that junk. Nobody finds themselves sitting where I am in that pic and says "Oh boy time to kill!" They run past at top speed on their way to one of the monsters I mentioned above. It's garbage, it's pure nuisance.

    You want people to use the dungeon more? Delete that crap and put another ice fiend there. Put a few there.

    You want newbies to use the dungeon? Delete the elementals and put some more ratmen there. The ratman that's there already, no newbie can come to kill. They'll get eaten by the other junk.

    I don't care if you make any PARTICULAR dungeon harder or easier. Just PICK A DIFFICULTY for a given area. Don't fill a room with gargoyles and drop a balron in there too. That just means nobody raw enough to want to kill gargoyles can survive there. Don't put a balron in the room and then fill it with gargoyles, that crap is just annoying and irritates people OUT of Hythloth and into... say... the Dojo instead.
     
  37. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    oki, to a degree I agree with you, they are an annoyance, and one not found in Fel actually, the balron is alone there.

    However some of the little spawn has uses you may not have thought of - for example I trained taming solely on aggressives, I found it more fun that way. That means at some point along the way, I was taming frost spiders in Ice.

    Hythloth has a couple of rooms where gargoyles spawn alone, so keep them there, for folk who have a use for hunting them? To a degree also, some of this little stuff prevents afk farming, something that, regretfully, needs to be considered?
     
  38. unified

    unified Guest

    This thread will be more interesting if you'd only stop quoting only the first few lines of everyone's post who don't agree with you about "deleting" spawn. Most here do agree that some creative revamping may be needed.

    Suffice it to say, I will go to Ice Dungeon just to kill Snow Elementals for Level 2 maps. Why? Because I can do it easily with a 100% Fire Damage, 40% Hit Fireball, Snow Elemental Slayer in one hit! It is easier for me to kill 10 of them in less time than it would take for me to kill a WW. In fact, what chance will I have to kill a WW when someone else is already there camping it? In the same time, I could have killed 10 snow/ice elementals and gotten the same loot. The few times I went into Ice just for the WW was to tame it.

    I agree with you that lesser spawn is annoying, but of course you won't know because you will not have read this far into my post, which is quite ignorant. I want all of sosaria rid of mongbats, vampire bats, wandering healers that prevent you from casting area spells and using area effect weapons --- and they don't even heal you.

    The original intent of dungeons is that you progressively work your way from minor to major creatures through the dungeon's levels. If this is too much, simply mark a rune directly into the throat of the White Wyrm.
     
  39. McValdemar

    McValdemar Guest

    There's also another point.
    The spawn in these dungeons is calibrated for the times that UO was crowded.

    I just got back in game from the old days and tryed to take a trip into Despice (or Destard), i mean the undead dungeon on Dagger Island.

    I still remember when we were 10/20 players trying to make wall in front of the bone knights room or when we got in many in the lich room.

    Well, obviuosly I was alone in the dungeon and there is no way a newbie can resist alone.

    So, the conclusion is that in this form the dungeons are really useless.

    If they wanna keep 'em they should change spawn rates accordingly to how many new player the game has.

    Or, and I wish it from the heart, they shouls merge MANY shards to regain a worthy population and join the new players in greater groups.

    The world is too big for the actual population.
    And expansions like SA that are a great work but add too much space make only the people feel more alone.
     
  40. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    The short term solution for the OP is to go play in Fel dungeons as they have less of the spawn that is troubling him.

    I find even the low level spawn in Fel dungeons useful as I can get a Gem of Salvation from a zombie or a skeleton in Deceit. I would be sad to see these removed to satisfy the whim of Trammel pvmers that are struggling to deal with a few snow eles.

    What do we want our dungeons to be? Farming areas for solo players or dangerous places that are the domain of monsters?
     
  41. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    It was the respawn that got the best chance for infecting. Also while dealing with a really uber GD when they first came to be. Forgot had BR in tamers pack and by it invising self it got infected. Think the running about and infecting only worked if you cleared area long enough to break agro.

    While in town an infected cat getting guard whacked was always good for a laugh.

    Just figured a BR Sash made by a tailor and having charges that are recharged with BR would give the stuff a game use. The whole deal with BR or new sash ideal is a player has the option to bump their hunt up. Just changing any spawning in a dungeon regulates it to one level of play.

    Even critters may have a higher being belief. The renown ideal could be a new game mechanic. Go killing a few hundered Ogre Lords may bring the rath of their greater diety down on ya. Or the old slayer group vs another group circle. Demon and Reptile hate each other as an example. Go on a killing spree of demons and build a reputation vs demons. Now your neutral vs reptiles but gained enough hate from demon that you alone can alone cause an infected (enraged) spawn effect just being around them. They are already showing they can do like / dislike agro effect with the current war event.
     
  42. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Yeah, I'm not saying there should be no ice elementals or frost spiders anywhere in the game. I'm saying you don't need to put twelve of them in the same general area.

    You put that many in, and characters in training are mostly not going to bother because they don't want to get swarmed. Meanwhile powerful characters just don't want to bother with that sort of spawn.
     
  43. Oh my goodness!
    what are you on about here?
    I can't imagine that ANY "classic-supporter" will give any manner of support
    The Monsters are of Legacy Era(day one / T2A)
    OR
    That you are actually arguing for Ease for veterans OR lessening RISK for the young ... humph!

    Surely you aren't asking for "special treatment" based on Glorious achievements rising to veteran status
    re: can't be bothered to "repeat the process" of clear the "minions" to reach the "boss" ...
    it is a primal premise that one must beat the students/lieutenants to "challenge" The Sensi/top dog.
    *shrugs* if it IS ... Perhaps it is a "challenge setting" you seek ... ie. Easy, Moderate, Hard.

    You-did-not-die to one:)blushing: didja?) due to "inattention" (went to get a snack, while waiting for the next boss to spawn)
    Which begs the question: what were you doing there? Or WERE you there?
    Because in re-reading and re-reading and re-reading this thread ...
    It is not to unreasonable to arrive at the conclusion that
    Legacy dungeons are >totally unused< ... by ANYONE *ahem*
    And that in your estimation THAT qualifies those areas as "abandoned" and so:
    Fair game for "suburban renewal" ... more suited to one of lofty (nay glorious) veteran status

    heh!

    Perhaps this was some "try" at raising some Older Concerns?
    Re: Loot Tables and Spawner mechanics?
    :thumbsup: if that IS the case ...

    re-roll, rewrite, re-post with Clearer goals ...
    IF you can be "bothered" ... of course. :danceb:
     
  44. Luvmylace

    Luvmylace Sage
    Stratics Veteran

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    how about go to a free shard and get all that. You can probably shop for the right shard.
     
  45. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Hey Fayled, your post is totally clear and concise. I and anyone else reading it will understand it perfectly. You are the most literate poster on Stratics.
     
  46. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    And it seems you got PWND to boot.
     
  47. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    But seriously, is there anyone who can translate that into English? I really didn't get what they were saying.
     
  48. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I agree that dungeons could usw a revamp - they changed a lot from their original (rather long respawn times when you could clean out a dungeon) to farming grounds.
    For farming grounds they are ok, from a gameplay/design persepective crap.

    Instant respawn takes away the feeling to having achieved something, also takes away a newbies chance to get their stuff togetgher, heal up and move on.

    Could also use some doors which could only be opened with lockpicking and treasure chests behind it or something similar interesting.
     
  49. DarkVoid

    DarkVoid Guest

    They need more than a revamp of monsters. The monsters in the older dungeons have been spawning for so long, maybe they could develop a multi-skilled ability for their attacks. If player A has low skills, the monster will use a low-level attack, if the player on the other hand has high or legendary skills like a veteran player or one who has trained a lot, the monster will use a much higher level attack, and possibly even call reinforcements in if needed?

    Of course there would need to be rules to prevent players from exploiting this but I can see that monsters could kick things up a level if the circumstances are just right.
     
  50. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Delete Greaters from Destard ... makes farming hides so much more dangerous. Fooey. I say leave the legacy dungeons alone and use them all for training areas.

    Before I retired I used Ice for Ice Eles and other stuff, Destard for hides from drakes, wyverns, dragons (ran like hades from greaters), Deceit for bandage restock of FoH (mummies) and the occasional hit on the brazier.