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Legacy pets deserve buffs

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Kratos Aurion, Sep 29, 2009.

  1. I understand that to many of you, this would not be considered a "priority" implementation of pet buffs nor do I intend for it to be. I'm starting this thread such as many before to generate some ideas to revive some of the legacy pets that were once revered as being the strongest, and are now among the weakest pets.

    Most new pets today have special attacks or buffs that make them "better" than legacy pets. For instance the hiryu can dismount, the cu sidhe can do bleed attacks and heal its owner, dread warhorses are powerful faction type mounts that can do tricks and are ridable by anyone, rune beetles can deadly poison and lower armor rating and so on so on.

    I'm sure it has probably been mentioned before, but why shouldn't all moderate to highend mounts contain a unique ability to separate them from the others? These buffs would definitely give purpose to all pets, including legacys.

    Below is a list of creatures I feel that could use buffs/updates in order to compete agains newer pets in today's Ultima.

    Dragon

    Actually some of you may be quite surprised but what I say about the dragon. Since the introduction of its greater counter part came out, the dragon has become very underpowered in terms of usefulness (imo). I'm not saying that it's useless in all cases, but to many it serves no purpose. So my suggestions are as following...

    -Remove the dragon period. Update the current "Greater" Dragons to replace the existing dragons.

    Some of you may think that's crazy because dragons are essential taming pets for tamers in training, but I'll get to that in a minute.

    Drakes
    -Buff drakes to replace the old dragons (or moderately close) *let their size remain the same!*
    -Maybe give drakes a special "slash" ability they can use their claws for to temporarily disorientate their opponents to go in for the kill.
    -Update all taming requirements accordingly to replace the legacy dragon
    (this would solve part of the problem.. now what replaces drakes?)

    Wyvern
    -Add Wyverns to the taming list, and let them replace the existing drakes.
    -I believe Wyverns already infect with poision, so why not just allow them to continue using poison as a special attribute.
    -Update all taming requirements accordingly to replace the legacy drake
    (tadaa...)

    White Wyrm
    -Buff the White Wyrms stats/resists enough to make them competetive.
    -Give White Wyrms a unique special for example "snow flurry" or something that enables it to temporarily double its attack strength. (just an idea)

    Firesteeds
    Firesteeds long ago were considered the prize ride of many because of their rarity and daily spawn limitations. Now they're just considered stable space. My first suggestion (as you probably guessed) would be too
    -Slightly buff its stats, or at least its HP and resist
    -Give it a unique ability such as "fire storm" which I have 2 interpretations of
    --1) "fire storm" could be a flurry of fireballs that shoot out in several directions attacking multiple targets, or one singular target if thats all that is in range (similar to meteor storm)
    --2) "fire storm" could also be an effect similar to the firehorns with raised firefields that last for a specific period of time and do minor, but reoccuring damage.

    Nightmares
    Nightmares were once very popular rides. They are still usable when tanked, but could still use a buff. Instead of suggesting stat increases, I would just suggest to
    -Allow Nightmares to have pack instincts
    -Give Nightmares a special/unique ability such as "engulfing darkness" which is initiated by the tamer (similar to the dread warhorse) and the effect greatly reduces the opponents chance to hit you (in other words it lowers HCI) for a temporary duration of time.
    --The special ability would be limited by a timer (once every 15-20mins), but it would still be a useful ability in its self to make the nightmare a choice candidate when choosing between high level pets and moderate level pets.
    --The downside (or balance) of the attack is that the Nightmare its self would need to be in-range of its opponent in order for the ability to successfully execute.

    Ki Rin/Unicorns
    Very mystical fey pets. My suggestion would be (since they're weak as they are)
    -Give them the ability to periodically summon fey (pixies) to aid them in combat which only attack the enemy they're attacking. They can be targeted/killed by anyone. They disappear or leave once the enemy is bested.

    So that pretty much sums of the buffs I have been recently thinking about. I'm sure there is a multitude of other things that could be done to buff legacy pets so feel free to post any additional details or ideas, and animals I've forgotten to mention you may consider to be your interpretation of legacy pet buffs :thumbup:
     
  2. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    What about rabbits?
     
  3. Honestly I didn't feel like going through every tameable developing pet buffs which is why I limited it to the more mystical/moderate pets that used to be highend as little as 3 to 4 years ago. But I guess you can give them the ability to burrow... and everytime they unburrow they gather reagents? lol.
     
  4. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    Arrrr, me neighbor's rabbit likes ta dig in the carrot patch and leave behind pellets!!
     
  5. In Flames

    In Flames Journeyman
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    Just so we're clear, the Dragon and Nightmare have been fixed. They're called Greater Dragon and Dread Warhorse. And no, tamer's don't need a bump in power. Go get yourself a new pet and if you want to keep the old one out of nostalgia, do so.
     
  6. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I mentioned rabbits because if you don't remove rabbits, there's no reason to remove dragons and drakes simply because they are now underpowered relative to greater dragons.

    Although your ideas are interesting, I feel a pet rebalance based on nostalgia is dangerous - you'll end up with greater dragons all over again. I think that if you want to balance the top tier of pets, you need to step back and more clearly define how they are going to have strengths and weaknesses (and how they interact which character skills) so that one pet doesn't dominate.
     
  7. Dragonchilde

    Dragonchilde Guest

    I think Tamers are quite powerful enough without even more powerful pets.
     
  8. I think the idea is not to create over-powered pets, but to give variety to the tamer. As a dexxer, how would you like having only one or two weapons to use? Or two spells as a mage? Each should have pros and cons to balance them out though.
     
  9. Did you even read my thread? Don't flame away without reading. I pretty much stated that the new dragons are "greater" dragons. The whole idea to my thread wasn't to significantly buff pets to make an overbalanced system, but to just give older pets their own unique attributes with slight buffs to make them viable options to tamers.
     
  10. That is very well said, and quite honestly how I feel. I hate being limited to using certain pets because

    1) It gets old. Yes I could use old pets to hunt newer things, but the amount of damage my older pets sustain is just far too much to compete against newer creatures.
    2) I enjoy having options, and not being limited to 1 or 2 choice pets.
     
  11. So you're suggesting that a tamer as he or she is, is powerful even without his pet?

    I'm not saying to buff legacy pets so significantly that they create balance issue but look at it like this. The taming requirements for these pets do not justify their current abilities and/or their control slots.

    A tamers power can be interpreted through many different ways. If you're suggesting that a powerful tamer is a tamer that hunts or pvps with a greater dragon or dread mare, than you're comparing all of his/her abilities based on very limited variables.

    So my suggestions are essentially to give legacy pets buffs or abilities that make them worth their control slot.

    Not every tamer enjoys hunting with one pet (GD or w.e). Yes I can choose to hunt with legacy pets which I do in some instances, but they deserve to be buffed just like every other class in the game gets buffs and/or new abilities/skills etc.

    And quite honestly, I don't consider tamers to be overpowered at all when comparing them to other templates. Mages and dexxors have significantly more capabilities than a single greater dragon, they aren't AI (unless they script..), and they can easily outmanuver/kill pets using the right equipment and tactics.
     
  12. Mairut

    Mairut Guest

    That is not what they were suggesting.

    Pretty sure they said "without even more powerful pets".

    What they meant was (and the meaning to me was quite clear, but to repeat it for you) the tamer is JUST FINE with the pets they have. They...the tamer and the pet...are just fine without adding something else to them.

    In no way did I see this as suggesting that a tamer cannot function without their pets. That would defeat the purpose of being a tamer in this game.

    Reading comprehension....you need it. :thumbdown:
     
  13. Please don't insult me. I obviously understood what the person was saying. But to argue my case, I had to argue my point of view as to why I believe legacy pets should be buffed.

    So to further add to my case, why should I be limited to only certain highend pets when you have the ability of a multitude of differen't weapons, all of which have 2 unique abilities, all of which contain mods (including armor). I play mages and dexxors, but quite frankly my tamer is becoming more increasingly boring to play due to a lack of viable options.

    And I can solo a mare in 2 hits. If it was buffed with one unique ability that could only be used under a strict timer, how in the hell would that overpower it? In any case, it would hardly add any threat to the fel scene.

    So please flame elsewhere, or at least do so with constructive thought.

    Tamers are not overpowered in most cases. It's just whiney a$$ people who can't adapt to change or refuse to accept that there are other classes just as good as their own.
     
  14. I like to see a buff on legacy pets, I brought my nightmare and WW from LS to Sonoma back in 2004, they were my main battles pets for a very long time, sadly they are no match for the newer dungeons boss monsters but I still keep them in the stables in hopes they will someday be needed for a grand battle.
     
  15. I disagree with the idea. You mention that they have no abilities and yet they do, the Ki-Rin has a Chain Lightning attack it can do while you are mounted when you are low on health, and the Unicorn can Cure its owner while mounted. The Nightmare, Dragon, WW and so on have their use, the problem with todays tamer is they don't think about what pet is right for the situation, they just grab the Greater Dragon. If they actually bothered to think about the pet combinations, follower slots and damage types vs the resists of what they were fighting (which considering they can lore them you would think would be obvious) they would get a great deal more use out of the older pets than they are doing. I think that this idea is akin to an Artifact being nerfed with another Artifact then trying to fix it by bringing out another Artifact. The problem isn't with the items, or in this case the pets, its with the players.
     
  16. The abilities that you mentioned serve such a low purpose that they're hardly substantial enough to be called benefitial. I do agree that you can predetermine what the best pet SHOULD be in a fight, but lets look at it this way.

    Cu Sidhe pretty much replace the White Wyrm in terms of damage type/effectiveness. While they do not contain magic abilities, they do have more HP, a unqiue attribute (it can heal its self and its own), and once trained, attacks almost repeatedly. So the Cu Sidhe pretty much retires the WW. Resists are fairly moderate as well.

    The Greater Dragon is pretty much versatile for almost any purpose. While there are instances where it would be less effective, its extremely high amount of HP/damage makes it suitable for almost all instances of pvm. It has substantial amounts of resist.

    The Dread Warhorse is essentially a buffed nightmare with the added benefit that it can be ridden by anyone. It retires the old nightmare, and can compete against cus, but the cus do have the added benefit that they deal damage ironically towards the dreads 2 weaker resists.

    The firesteed. It's so insanely weak, solen infiltrators nearly have no problem soloing the one I tamed the other day. Its resists are extremely low, it has no magic attributes, and it has extremely low HP. To require 106.6 taming to tame a firesteed, you would think you would be getting a little more bang for your skill. In a day with so few tamers (I'm comparing that to a day when there were a hell of a lot more *surprisingly*), they are in extremely low demand because they literally have no value to a tamer aside from their pack instinct ability.

    It's easy to say you can tank a creature, but even tanking, most legacy pets die relatively fast even for good vets. And like I said in my OP, I'm tossing out ideas. My original idea was to give all moderate to highend legacy pets unique abilities that could make them more preferable over the current highend pets of today. Not to insanely over balance them with over-buffed stats that would make them as good as a Dread, or even a Greater Dragon.
     
  17. Other than Rune Beetles Armor Corruption being changed to 50% those old pets haven't changed, they are no less effective now than they were then, just because something new came out you've shifted your values of them. I don't see that as a good basis for the idea. Comparing a Cu to a WW makes no sense, you wouldn't have just a WW you would have a WW and a 2 slot pet. You wouldn't have just a Nightmare compared to a Dread Warhorse.

    Pack instinct and combinations far out damage the newer pets, if theres no value in that to you, then it seems a bit futile to buff them in other ways.
     
  18. T'Challa

    T'Challa Certifiable
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    Incorrect.

    Dreads require a high amount of taming and lore to command effectively.
     
  19. Alright, lets see you take 2 fire steeds our to hunt. Yes they have pack instincts. Or better yet, mix it up, tank it with a WW. Now compare the rate at which newer pets take down what you hunt versus the legacy combos. Rune beetles are great tanking pets but then again, they aren't legacy are they? Rune beetles have great abilities but they're fairly weak thereself when fighting highend spawn.

    I do understand your point of view that tanking creatures gives them an added benefit/bonus, but those tank combinations are limited. You take 2 weaker legacy pets out on a hunt, maybe you decide to hunt shadow wyrms? Shadow wyrms will destroy just about any of the legacy tanking combinations without effort, where as you can use a cu sidhe or greater dragon who have considerable less difficulty accomplishing the same feat.

    You can't just assume that when you tank two pets together, it automatically makes them godly combinations. Yeah they work out in doom, and with enough support get by with peerlesses, but they're losing their edge against the newer stuff considerably quick. For your sake, you can tailor together any specific instance where a legacy combination will work exceptionally, but that doesn't make them great for general purpose use like most of the newer pets serve.

    EDIT:

    Maybe it would have been better to also have said that even if legacy pets did get buffs, the control slots they require would probably change as well. I wouldn't expect a White Wyrm with twice its current stats with an added attribute/ability to still require 3 control slots. But anyways, it's most likely a lost cause. No one is willing to make exceptions because of the nay sayers "tamers already have greater dragons, what else do they need!?" although the rest of the game has to live with the exceptions made towards other classes.
     
  20. My bad. It's been a few months since I've last played. You are right :thumbup:
     
  21. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    I would like older pets to still be useful but here's the problem.
    Many "tamers" these days just want one thing...the biggest, baddest pet ingame...which is why you see so many greater dragons around.

    Also, if pets were buffed to be useful in new dungeons then EA would have to come up with something else to keep tamers happy for expansions.
    Of course EA will not buff pets because they nerfed them on purpose years ago by basically halving their health.
    Europa Rangers Council used to hold pet tournaments but had to stop some of them after the nerf because some pets (like nightmares) would almost instantly kill each other and we only did non-death tournaments.

    People have been whining about tamers forever and we keep getting nerfed but it's never enough.
    "Pets are too tough!"-Health nerf...
    "Pets are too big!"-Introduce powerful small pets...

    Hell, whenever i hear about some new mobs people say "Don't take a tamer, it's a pet killer".

    But it's okay. I mean all we have to do is say "All kill" and we wipe out most of Sosaria... :wall:

    Personally i'd like to see the smaller pets get a boost, or just better AI.
    What's the point in...say imps or dire wolves, if they just run up to tough mobs and start hitting them? They die in a hit or two. You'd think they had the sense to avoid melee as they're casters...like summoned air elementals do, or in the case of small melee pets they'd have a high wrestling rating to help avoid getting hit.
     
  22. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    My Dragon and Nightmare were not fixed, They were nerfed with AoS. I do keep them out of nostalgia but then again they are not the pets I tamed years ago thanks to the nerf. As for the Dread Warhorse where can we tame one now.
     
  23. It seems to me that you consider the newer pets better than the old regardless of situation, you're comparing 4 & 5 slot pets to 2 & 3 slot pets on an individual basis, which isn't how they're used.

    I could compare the legacy combination I use to the newer pets but I'll spare you a long angry rant about how irritating it is waiting for people with GD's, Dreads & Cu's to kill stuff I can kill in seconds with my Beetle/Mare.

    *Btw, as far as 'legacy' & 'newer' from your original post you considered Unicorns & Ki Rin, & later post Fire Steeds 'legacy' yet Rune Beetles aren't? I'm considering 'newer' as GD's, Dreads & Cu's (though I wouldn't really include Cu's in it if you hadn't made it clear thats where you see them) & considering everything else - for the purpose of this debate 'legacy'*

    Edit:
    Anyway, this is getting off topic and I don't want to derrail your thread by arguing with you repeatedly, I still stand by my original post in this thread.
     
  24. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    this.
     
  25. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Shame on you! Unless you are a breeder all pets should be spayed or neutered.
     
  26. I consider legacy pets to be AoS and back, considering that is about 5 to 6 years ago. It wasn't until SE when like you said, rune beetles came out when they started giving pets extra buffs such as the armor corruption/dp. Compared to older pets, that was unheard of. Ever since, newer pets have been given similar buffs to give them even more of an advantage. If I take my nightmare/WW combo out to go kill GDs, they get shredded. If I try my nightmare/WW vs bake/RB, they get shredded. Of course the freedom of mix and match is up to the tamer, but the original AoS nerfs killed the popularity of legacy pets because they are simply just too weak.

    Legacy just means old. You can use the term pretty loosely depending on what you consider "old" to be. I consider legacy (in this case) to be all pets preSE because SE is the expansion that initiated pet buffing/special abilities.

    EDIT: I respect that you have your own opinion, and I'm not accusing you of being wrong. It's all about propper persuasion and propaganda. I just feel that over the past week that I've been experimenting with my old legacy pets, they simply do not compete against newer, stronger releases.
     
  27. Ok, I was just trying to debate in the same terms you were, outside of this debate I'd consider it even older, I started in January 2001 so from then it would be WW's, Dragons, Nightmares. Everything before... I *think* Third Dawn & Ilshenar... was the first expanse of pets I really remember.

    Anyway, I've posted my opinion of it - good discussing it with you - and I'll leave you to your thread.
     
  28. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    I would have preferred they buffed up the classic WW to be what a greater dragon is, and not even introduced greaters into the game.
    Once again, we are stuck in that never ending cycle of buff, make stronger, introduce new and stronger, bufff, nerf, add stronger...
    The incoming mobs were all being made stronger, so to counteract that, they made stronger arties and dragons...now the incoming mobs in SA are made stronger, and probably coming to a shard near you soon, will be stronger or faster pets and arties...
    rinse and repeat

    Meanwhile the classic combos that made UO look like UO are sitting gathering dust...
     
  29. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Have to correct you here. When I hear New Pets that means Stygian Abyss tameables. & if anything they are way underpower vrs any of the Legacy pets you mentioned. The Vollem might be comparable to a nightmare. Then again the Mechanincal version doesen`t bond.
     
  30. I'm not familiar with the new SA pets. I'm basing my argument on all the pets released betwen SE and ML, and the recently added GD, Dread etc. You would also have to consider if the SA pets were implemented to serve PvM purposes, or other purposes. To my understanding, the skrii or w/e its called can retrieve objects for you if you can reach them. The iron beetle performs mining tasks etc.

    Honestly, most pets implemented past SE generally only served PvM purposes. There are very few lowend tameables added. Personally, I would also like to see new low end tameables implemented like new wilderness types etc. It would give new tamers new stuff to train on if anything.
     
  31. I share your sentiments. Maybe the whole damn taming list should be re-evaluated, and pet attributes/abilities will be balanced accordingly :wall:
     
  32. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    Actually Ki-rins and Unicorns do have some special moves. If your hit points become low while in battle You'll see the message "Your pet calls down the forses of nature" and then a chain lightening strike type move. Also Ki-rins and Unis can rez their owners.
     
  33. I'm aware of the chainlighting feature (God brought it up earlier as well). I was not aware of the resing feature.
     
  34. Xenobia

    Xenobia Lore Keeper
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    My poor WW and mare have sat in the stables since the introduction of the Cu. They are too underpowered to take to the newer dungeons and I have actually considered releasing them, but then I think of all the work I put into them and it's hard to let them go. Oh, and I have a pretty purple rabbit in there too but he doesn't count :) I like the idea of the buffs on the legacy pets. Why not be able to take your WW to the same places that you take your greater dragon or your Cu? There would be no difference other then you are sporting a different pet and he would be able to keep up with the other pets in the room.
     
  35. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Hmm, imagining the damage I could do with a weyr of wyverns.. :eek:

    I've long felt the white wyrm should reassert its former position as top tamable wyrm.. but to make it more powerful than a greater dragon would be ridiculous. I thought perhaps they could have some special feature like chivalry, seeing as shadow wyrms get necromancy. Spell strength could be indexed to the owner's karma. Either something like that or a proper frost/breath/freeze attack.
     
  36. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Most SA pets are aimed at low to mid level tamers Wolf Spiders, Raptors, Boura, & Slith. As for specials Skree special is taking up 4 slots. If it fetchs & retrieves no one but devs would know this purpose yet. Iron Beatles do nothing at the moment. Most specualte the Devs will add later.
     
  37. I don't think the White Wyrm should be nearly as powerful as a Greater Dragon. Perhaps buffing it towards 500-700 hp, upping its resist, and making it require 4 control slots + maybe the chivalry would be pretty brilliant, at least (IMO). :thumbup:

    I actually like that the developers did that. Mid to low level tamers have been bumped out of the past few expansions. It's nice to see some love there for once. As far as the Skree retrieving items, I read it on the SA website "This small creature is peaceful and friendly. While he requires a lot of convincing, once tamed he will accept any new master. When bonded, he will perform various services for his master: he will fetch targeted resources otherwise unreachable by his master without flight ability. "

    On the SA homepage, click "Game Overview," and under the subcatagories, click Mobs. Scroll down until you find Skree.
     
  38. Wolfways

    Wolfways Guest

    Because they don't.
     
  39. maroite

    maroite Guest


    Translated:

    "Hi, I'm a dexxer or an archer who can honor things and get 300%DI and pop out 250 damage per second with chiv/bush. lolz Tamerz r overpowrdz!"

    Yeah, I love how people claim that tamers are soooo powerful yet in actuality, most tamers do the least damage of all combat builds. Even a mare/beetle combo can only single target things, where as dexxers can get access to whirlwind and multitarget things for 100 damage a second or more.

    Yeah, tamers are soooooo overpowered. :wall:rolleyes:
     
  40. In Flames

    In Flames Journeyman
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    Yes I read it. And I think you're wrong.

    They don't need buffs. There are plenty of ways to use those creatures just fine. Some very devious and devastating in combat. It's just how you use them. If you want to variety, how about a stronger spider to tame. or some new wolves. Or some new ostards. or super battle llamas (hell, I'd play a tamer if I had a super battle llama).

    I just think your list is an example of why tamers tend to get over powered. "I can't find a use for this animal, so it's to weak to use and needs to be buffed".
     
  41. maroite

    maroite Guest

    So you don't play a tamer, yet like to comment on how "powerful" they are? I suppose that would be like me making comments about dexxers and archers being overpowered, while only playing a tamer but wait ... wait... I have both a dexxer and an archer, and both are possibly just as if not more efficient at tasks than my tamer is.

    Regardless the OPs post never asked for pets to become more powerful. He asked for them to be changed around.

    All dragons would become Greaters. There would be no "lesser" dragon. Drakes would be made more like the current dragons, wyverns would become tameable (not sure why they're not to begin with) and most of the other changes were just bring pets with relatively similar taming/lore requirements to that of a the Greater Dragon, up to speed with what the required taming should reflect in stats.

    Right now, there are many tames in game that require 96+ taming/lore that are not worth it.

    Some examples include, but are not limited to the nightmare, kirin, fire steed, dragon, bake, and possibly even raptors.

    How do you justify bouras being so low needed taming, and some even 0 to control being able to take out all of these 96+ tame animals? Please, tell me how this is balanced. How a non tamer can get 2 ruddy bouras and be on par with a tamer that need 96+? ...
     
  42. Restroom Cowboy

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  43. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Well I guess I could fix the dragon, cause even if there is just one it could breed with itself, lizard creatures are known to do that, but for the Nightmare considering its a Mare and only Mares spawn then what would be the sense.
     
  44. In Flames

    In Flames Journeyman
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    Don't assume I don't have a tamer because I said I don't play one.

    I have tamers on multiple servers. Just because I don't play them on a very consistent basis does not mean I do not understand what they are, what they do, and what they really could use as far as improvements.

    You have to realize that this is not just a PvM issue. Tamers like to take their monsters and make us PvPers have to PvM in the field. Take the firesteeds for example. The OP says they are in need of a boost, however if you know what you're doing you can kill a person before they have an opportunity to get away with one. People don't seem to realize that the Firesteeds have demon pack instincts, and all one has to do to use this to maximum efficiency is summon a pack of imps via spellweaving. Hit your target with a paralyzing blow or a nerve strike, and quickly jump off and all kill. If it hits your target is pretty much screwed at this point. Now sure, lets make that firesteed even more powerful. Good plan.

    Now I can sit here and explain to you how each and every change to tamable creatures needs to be carefully considered because whenever things get out of balance half the PvPers adopt the same template, and farm the other half until it's either fixed or players start quitting.

    As for the Bouras, there was a time when something very similar happened. Everyone was running around with blue beetles when they first came out because they were about as strong as a drake. Needless to say, we can all see what happened there. Learn to ask for a real fix instead of asking for "OMG WE NEED MORE POWAH!". If you feel that the Ruddy bouras are to powerful for a non tamer to have then THAT is the real issue.