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Lets gather some statistics shall we....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Nexus, May 21, 2010.

?

Your View on Unapproved 3rd Party Programs

Poll closed May 28, 2010.
  1. Unapproved 3rd party Programs should be blocked period.

    35 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Unapproved 3rd party Programs should be evaluated for approved status

    17 vote(s)
    23.3%
  3. Unapproved 3rd Party Programs should be allowed for certian activities.

    12 vote(s)
    16.4%
  4. I don't care either way.

    9 vote(s)
    12.3%
  1. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    We all know that the posters on Stratics don't make up the entire player base for UO. That is simple fact, but we do make up a decent cross section of it. With all the discussions on Cheating and Cheat programs a few have come out in defense of these programs, while others have stood resolutely against them.

    Since those for them repeatedly ask for "Numbers" lets give them some so we can end this pointless debate.

    Pointless, yes it is pointless, the powers to be at EA/Mythic have said "You Shall Not Use Unapproved 3rd Party Programs", and unless they can find a reasonable reason to change that view then there is no point on arguing it. Even the 3rd Party affiliate program has been closed for years with no signs of ever being reopened, rendering support for unapproved programs really a moot point.

    Before someone brings up the case of UOCartographer, remember it uses API's that were put in place for and by the developer of UOAssist with EA's blessing, it falls under a completely different category, it's more of an addon for an approved 3rd party program, much like UO Auto Map was.


    So lets do a little poll, since yes Stratics isn't he majority but they are a cross section you can equate the results as being a good idea of the views of the whole. And I'm setting this poll up to be anonymous, no one will see who you are, so feel free to be honest.
     
  2. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I hate to disillusion you, but it won't work.
    People cheat on polls on here too. They post with alts. One one poll the same person voted both 'yes' and 'no' with two different user names.
     
  3. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Yea you're right, but some people won't believe anything until it's shoved under their noses. I know on Chessy I'm part of RBG one of the largest guilds in UO, and with our alliance we probably would rank in the top 2-3 if those members were counted. We've had these discussions among ourselves. Out of about 250 people only one was upset and they were promptly told to STFU and deal with it...
     
  4. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Your poll answers are flawed and lacking.

    either way, Stratics is not a cross section. For heated important issues people will come here and voice their opinions of the kind that they can. So if anti-cheating really was such a huge issue, then people would flock by the hundreds to Stratics, if not by the thousands.
     
  5. There are lots and lots of games out there. Many of them have lots of Approved 3rd Party Programs. To consistantly refuse to even evaluate some of these is just ludicrous and antiquated.

    No, I'm not for cheating in game play, however there are lots of things (such as Auto Map) that could really improve gameplay for many, without breaking the spirit of what UO really is.
     
  6. Split personality disorder?
     
  7. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Or only one dared say anything in fear of just that reaction. And there's cheaters in your guild, that much I know.

    Either way, its more likely that the anti-cheating crowd will make alts and add to the poll, considering the narrowmindedness displayed.
     
  8. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    If I ever work that one out, I'll let you know :)
     
  9. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Well, that goes both ways, so in the end you'll end up with a lot of cheat votes both ways and as such it has minimum impact.
     
  10. HD2300

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    If you had a poll, 'Should EA ban cheaters?', it would be totally pointless, because people who make a living off UO, would get on 50 ALT accounts and post No. They will also be going full throttle spamming threads on multiple ALT accounts, to make it seem as if most people dont want EA to ban cheaters.
     
  11. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Now there your logic is totally flawed.

    The 'anti-cheat' crowd won't make alts - because, you see, they don't cheat.

    :coco:
     
  12. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    First of all, there are a few cheaters amongst the anti-cheat crowd. I know, because I know one of them.

    Secondly, even if they're legit in game, doesn't meant they won't cheat in a forum poll to get their will, it will likely be seen as sacrifice for the greater good.

    Many of the anti-cheat crowd have said that they're willing to ruin the game for thousands, threaten UOs existance and have the game shut down to get their way, so what is a little tiny forum poll.
     
  13. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of their motives. But that's just my opinion.
    I'll put it like this. I wouldn't make an alt to vote twice on a poll. I wouldn't even use my husband's totally legitimate user name. If he wants to vote he'll do it himself.
    I'm one of those silly people that 'clever' people mock. I'm honest, I don't cheat and I don't lie.
     
  14. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Even your own moderator Kelmo has stated that he'd rather see the game die than there not be anti-cheat implemented.

    If the game dies, it will ruin the fun for thousands of players who are having fun and enjoying their game as it is.

    That is good and I do applaud you the stand up approach of not doing so. You haven't stated you want the game to die either or made rabid statements going after good people.

    I wouldn't mock you for that at all, its a good quality. Though I would caution against believing this line of thought is anything but a tiny group in the world.
     
  15. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *raises eyebrow*
     
  16. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Oh and as far as i can gather, then you can't see if people make alts and vote. Especially since the poll is not public.
     
  17. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Are you going to deny that you stated that you'd rather the game die?
     
  18. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *laughs* Where is the context? I have said a lot of things.
     
  19. LordDrago

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    Kelmo hates children too!!!! :)

    I know it is true because he once said he hated the childish behavior of some PKs. Children also act childish. Thus it is proven that Kelmo hates children.


    But to the poll? I put that unapproved third party programs should be blocked as none of the other choices included blocking (I may have read more into the lack of this being included in choices 2 and 3 though). I actually think that they should be initially blocked, and their use should have a penalty (perhaps on a scale up to bans for repeated violations), but these programs should also have a means to be allowed. However, I am not sure that the pared down dev team can devote enough resources to vet the programs..... :(
     
  20. Actually, it's not a badly structured poll. It's specific and has the options well covered, you can make statistically valid conclusions (assuming people don't vote multiple times) and includes and out such as "I don't know" or "I don't care." As far as Stratics polls, it's one of the better constructed.

    What's missing?
     
  21. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I heard he voted for Nixon :eyes:
     
  22. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    He said he was not a crook...
     
  23. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    I didn't vote. I feel unapproved 3rd party applications should be blocked, but also that EA should evaluate the functions provided by the applications and either authorize or implement in their own clients where there is good reason.

    The problem is if the 3rd party apps were blocked the evaluation for authorization or inclusion becomes a chicken and egg thing.
     
  24. Funny...so did Lord Chaos :lol:
     
  25. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Currently Active Users
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    Yea 200 folks reading over just UHall isn't hundreds
     
  26. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    In the context of a poster that said that cheating couldn't be stopped and then you said you'd rather the game die.
     
  27. LordDrago

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    Actually, I believe his quote was more along the lines that cheating was killing the game and if it was going to die from cheaters, he would rather have EA/Mythic ban the cheaters to attempt to revive the game, and if that itself killed the game (as was your argument at the time) then he was fine with it. Sort of a "going down fighting" statement.
     
  28. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Yet out of 200, only 13 are against any form of UAM and cheating, lol.

    Its a fairly normal amount of people, so there's not a flock of people coming to support the new feature. Heck, the bard changes and pitcher change has received more positive response.
     
  29. Violence

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    Re: Let's NOT.

    Nexus, with all the kind-heartedness and open-mindedness I can muster I must say I'm one of your polls away from replying to you with a "I SEE WHAT UR DOING HERE." kitty pic.

    I am not sure which of the two agendas'(I'd say "3" but I don't think there is anyone who's actually not affected by cheating one way or another) view-points you're trying to promote but it is my opinion it would be wiser, regardless, to not run a third poll related to cheating and how the company plans to deal with it.

    :stretcher:
     
  30. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I am flattered you keep up with my posts...

    So the context was "if cheating could not be stopped". Got it.
     
  31. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    That wasn't the context, but even if it was, its still him rather wanting the game to die, rather than letting things go on, and stating that he's fine with ruining the fun for thousands of players (even many completely legit ones) simply to satisfy what he wants done.

    But anyway, this isn't a debate about Kelmo. It was merely an example to show just how far that side is willing to go.
     
  32. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    It lacks an option for "I want to keep the game as it is". That is not covered by the "I don't care option".
     
  33. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You are the one that played the kelmo card...
     
  34. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Yes, indeed. Well fitting in the context. Though not meant as a debating point.
     
  35. LordDrago

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    Then show me the context. But of course you won't, because it would show the flaws in your statement.

    The reverse of the argument was that NOT implementing anti-cheat measures was going to kill uo, for the same thousands of players (some completely legit ones). So you would rather have UO die than try to actually save it. (I am using your flawed logic here).

    You are McClellan to Kelmo's Grant.
     
  36. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Any time somebody creates a third party program (or EC mod), no matter if it gets submitted for approval or not, Mythic should ask the following questions:
    • Is it reasonable for somebody to be able to perform the actions this program allows?
      • Yes, it is reasonable.
        • Can we implement this functionality into one or both of our clients?
        • Do we have enough resources to implement this functionality?
        • Is it unfair if some, but not all, players can perform these actions?
          • If yes, and it cannot be implemented in both clients, see "No, it is not reasonable." below
      • No, it is not reasonable.
        • Can we implement restrictions on the server to prevent these actions?
        • Can we implement restrictions on the client to prevent these actions?
        • Do we have enough resources to implement these restrictions?
        • Are there ways we can detect when these actions occur so GMs can take actions against those who do them?
    And, of course, they should expand on those questions to weigh risks (including considering what other things might be delayed) before deciding on a course of action.
     
  37. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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  38. Well said.
     
  39. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Except UO has survived 13 years without it. But nice try. Nothing Grant about Kelmo.
     
  40. I didn't vote, so I fall into this group. :grouphug:
     
  41. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You see... LC thinks I am an idiot. He really does. Just ask him. That I can prove, but will not subject my Uhall friends to the OT: no holds barred forum. A forum I can no longer support even tacitly.

    I may not have the "way with words" LC has. I am not an idiot. A game is only as good as it rules.

    This is not a pick up game played on the back lot. Every "pro game" has referees, testing, and penalties. We pay money for this and we expect a level playing field.
     
  42. Nexus

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    Re: Let's NOT.

    Actually I'm for them doing something to stop scripts, and bots. 100% for it. I just want to hear what other people thing and see if their view makes sense or has more flaws than claws so to speak...
     
  43. Guido_LS

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    Re: Let's NOT.

    My only real worries don't concern what they do on Windows systems - as you well know, not everyone plays UO under a MS operating system, and again, as you well know, there are some pretty significant differences in what is running in the background of a *nix box and a Windows box.

    And I somehow doubt that the dev team knows the difference between Ubuntu, RedHat, and Slackware, let alone all the clones and variations of those 3.
     
  44. Nexus

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    Re: Let's NOT.

    Yea I've thought about that too.. things like that are part of the reason I dual Boot... if I have too I'll use Windows for UO, would rather not, but if it comes to that.....
     
  45. Re: Let's NOT.

    :thumbup1:


    [​IMG]
     
  46. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    Personally *takes admin hat off* I think EA/Mythic should evaluate third party programs coming from more or less legit sources and give out some new approval stamps. The case of the deceased UOMap is the best example - a half decent, properly vetted map utility is a nice thing to have.

    *hat back on*
    There seems to be something in our RoC about advocating activities that are currently against game ToS, so, dear posters, even if you think it's OK to cheat don't be so very affirmative about it... because:

    Just sayin'
     
  47. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Block them period. That is, until/if they get approved.
     
  48. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Hate to break it to you Nexus, but your guildies can lie in group chat just like Stratics posters can lie in a poll.
     
  49. I will conceed this much to the pro-cheating contingent:

    If EA is not going to address the differences in functionality between the Classic Client and the ... "Enhanced" ... Client, then they should seriously consider approving third party programs that bring it up-to-speed. So if you can do it with the EC, can't do it with the CC, but 3rd party program X will allow you to do whatever it is you can with the EC...then I don't see a problem with it.

    What I do have a problem with is people running script-bot farms, running scripts that automate things like healing and curing...I don't care if it is slower than doing it manually, it's cheating...and speedhacking, stumphacking, etc.

    I don't even care about all the script programs that list all the duped crap for sale in Luna. As long as you have script bots mining, taming, chopping wood, killing low level creatures from server up to server down picking up gold by the millions per hour, and dupers flooding the game with Val Hammers, rares, and artifacts...the scripts that lists those things for sale is not the problem, it's just a symptom.
     
  50. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Not to mention that, contrary to what he said in his post, I doubt Stratics even represents a "good cross-section" of UO players.

    We are a small, isolated, self-selected group.

    There are currently 200 people looking at UO Stratics.

    Let's assume there are only 10,000 UO player left.

    That'd mean only 2% of UO players are currently looking at Stratics and guess what? For all we like to talk about how UO is near death, it's guaranteed that more than 10,000 people play it.

    Let's say it's 20,000, another likely-low number. That makes us only 1%.

    *shrugs*

    Now, a sample of 2% would be excellent in some contexts, if the sample were randomly selected and if you were taking the samples across various time frames, and if who responded wasn't only self-selected.

    Now throw in the anonymity and the fact that one can make may alternate identities and respond in many different ways on each. And the fact that some, like me, will simply refuse to answer at all.

    Oh, and by the way of the 200, only 90 are logged in.

    -Galen's player